Discussion:
How many Todd AO 30fps movies?
(too old to reply)
1***@5678.com
16 years ago
Permalink
Does anyone know which films were shot/released at 30fps?

:-)
Lincoln Spector
16 years ago
Permalink
Post by 1***@5678.com
Does anyone know which films were shot/released at 30fps?
Two. Oklahoma and Around the World in 80 Days.

Lincoln
Replay
Read More
David Johnson
16 years ago
Permalink
plus the miracle of "Todd AO"
David
Post by Lincoln Spector
Post by 1***@5678.com
Does anyone know which films were shot/released at 30fps?
Two. Oklahoma and Around the World in 80 Days.
Lincoln
Stephen Furley
16 years ago
Permalink
Post by Lincoln Spector
Post by 1***@5678.com
Does anyone know which films were shot/released at 30fps?
Two. Oklahoma and Around the World in 80 Days.
Lincoln
How about 'The Miracle of Todd-AO', was that 30fps? What's in it,
I've never seen the thing?
David Johnson
16 years ago
Permalink
Long time since I last saw it, as I recall it finished with a car chase down
a hill in San Francisco, we did have a print but we loan it to someone and
it never came back.
David
Post by Stephen Furley
Post by Lincoln Spector
Post by 1***@5678.com
Does anyone know which films were shot/released at 30fps?
Two. Oklahoma and Around the World in 80 Days.
Lincoln
How about 'The Miracle of Todd-AO', was that 30fps? What's in it,
I've never seen the thing?
Dan Sherlock
16 years ago
Permalink
Post by Stephen Furley
Post by Lincoln Spector
Post by 1***@5678.com
Does anyone know which films were shot/released at 30fps?
Two. Oklahoma and Around the World in 80 Days.
Lincoln
How about 'The Miracle of Todd-AO', was that 30fps? What's in it,
I've never seen the thing?
A description of the scenes in the film can be seen at:

http://www.in70mm.com/newsletter/1998/53/miracle/miracle_script.htm

The full credits for this short subject can be seen at:

http://www.in70mm.com/newsletter/1996/46/credits/miracle.htm

In answer the the original question: Only two feature films were released in
30 fps Todd-AO: OKLAHOMA! and one of the two Todd-AO versions of AROUND THE
WORLD IN 80 DAYS. THE MIRACLE OF TODD-AO was also 30 fps.

If you want to get less picky, the CineSpace 70 demo made in 1987 was 30 fps
shot with Todd-AO cameras and optics, but was not advertised as "Todd-AO". In
fact, it was not released at all since it was a demo film, but then it has been
shown to the public at special events. To get even less picky, the StereoSpace
3-D demo reel made in 1980 (not shown to the public) was well as the World's
Fair short subjects WATER: THE SOURCE OF LIFE and 3D FANTASIUM (I think that is
the title) were shot with Todd-AO cameras and optics at 30 fps, but were
credited as StereoSpace.

And if you don't care about the manufacturer of the cameras or optics, most
(but not all) 5-perf 70mm films for special venue use are 30 fps: All of the
Disney 3-D shorts, STAR TOURS, etc. And some of the 870 films out there were
30 fps.

And if you don't even care about 65mm photography, almost every car commercial
shown on television in the USA is 30 fps. (For some reason, the 30 fps
photography in car commercials seems to make the windows in the car darker and
causes water to appear on the road surface. <grin>)

-Dan


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Peter H.
16 years ago
Permalink
And if you don't even care about 65mm photography, almost every car commercial
shown on television in the USA is 30 fps.
29.97 fps, to match the frame rate of TV ... no need for a 3-2 pulldown.
Stefan Adler
16 years ago
Permalink
Miracle of Todd-AO
Oklahoma
Around the World in 80 Days

/Stefan
Post by 1***@5678.com
Does anyone know which films were shot/released at 30fps?
:-)
Larry Karstens
16 years ago
Permalink
I may be wrong since it was so long ago but I belive that The Miracle
of ToddAO was shown prior to showing South Pacific at the Capri
Theater in Kansas City during the roadshow performances. If so it
would have to have been at standard framing because immediately after
the screening South Pacific began and the theater had only been open a
short time and never had shown Oklahoma or 80 Days.
Peter H.
16 years ago
Permalink
If so it would have to have been at standard framing because immediately after
the screening South Pacific began and the theater had only been open a short
time and never had shown Oklahoma or 80 Days.
What's your point?

The Philips/Ampex projectors had two drive motors: 24 fps and 30 fps.

Perhaps later projectors had only 24 fps motors.
Dan Sherlock
16 years ago
Permalink
Post by Larry Karstens
I may be wrong since it was so long ago but I belive that The Miracle
of ToddAO was shown prior to showing South Pacific at the Capri
Theater in Kansas City during the roadshow performances. If so it
would have to have been at standard framing because immediately after
the screening South Pacific began and the theater had only been open a
short time and never had shown Oklahoma or 80 Days.
Although this was certainly possible, I suspect that what you actually saw was
the very similar short subject THE MARCH OF TODD-AO which was shown with SOUTH
PACIFIC at many theaters. THE MARCH OF TODD-AO was 24 fps.

See the description of MARCH at:

http://www.in70mm.com/newsletter/1996/46/credits/march.htm

-Dan


------------------------------------------------------------
(Remove "pany.net" from e-mail address.)
Stefan Adler
16 years ago
Permalink
He might just be right too...
Miracle was shown prior to South Pacific on its first run here in Sweden in
1960.
//Stefan
...
Larry Karstens
16 years ago
Permalink
Having just now visited the links to both suggested sites and reading
the synopsis , I can definitely state that I saw Miracle of ToddAO as
the lead in to South Pacific. My original point when I made my first
entry was that possibly there were both 24 AND 30 fps versions. I am
also aware that there were two projectors in the booth and that
possibly ths short was shown at 30 and the feature then shown using
the other projector at 24 fps. Big deal!
Larry Karstens
16 years ago
Permalink
Having just now visited the links to both suggested sites and reading
the synopsis , I can definitely state that I saw Miracle of ToddAO as
the lead in to South Pacific. My original point when I made my first
entry was that possibly there were both 24 AND 30 fps versions. I am
also aware that there were two projectors in the booth and that
possibly ths short was shown at 30 and the feature then shown using
the other projector at 24 fps. Big deal!
John Anastasio
16 years ago
Permalink
The changeovers would have been really interesting with the machines running
at different speeds. They either both ran at 30fps or both ran at 24fps.
Platters weren't in use when these films came out.
Post by Larry Karstens
Having just now visited the links to both suggested sites and reading
the synopsis , I can definitely state that I saw Miracle of ToddAO as
the lead in to South Pacific. My original point when I made my first
entry was that possibly there were both 24 AND 30 fps versions. I am
also aware that there were two projectors in the booth and that
possibly ths short was shown at 30 and the feature then shown using
the other projector at 24 fps. Big deal!
Theo Gluck
16 years ago
Permalink
Unless I'm missing something here, I think Larry's anaylsis as to the
likely scenario is right on the money (no - I don't know if MIRACLE
existed at both 24 and 30fps). But I cannot forsee any reason why the
short could not have been @ 30fps and then have the INCOMING projector
start running SOUTH PACIFIC at 24fps. If theaters can routinely swap
lenses and plates from a trailer reel to a feature (I did it all the time
in a 2 projector change-over house with a flat trailer reel and a Scope
feature), then I don't see any problem in having the operator change the
speed for the 1st machine after the short is done.

Of course there were no platters back then, but then you also had skilled
and attentive operators as opposed to sullen skateboarders who can barely
muster the energy to hike up their pants, let alone check focus.

Theo
Studio City, CA
...
SGuttag
16 years ago
Permalink
Well the original Todd-AO machines (DP70) had a switch for the change of speed
between 24 and 30 fps...a quicker change than even the lens.

The later single motor Norelco (AA2) projectors used a tranmission and dual
belt arrangement...again the change between 24 and 30 fps was a matter of mere
seconds (not even a minute).

Bauer (U2) had one move the motor between the two positions (less than one
minute procedure).

Century (JJ) used a dual poly-V pulley system...that one would take more than a
minute to move the belt between the two pullies and properly re-tension but
certainly it can be done in time for the changeover.

Those are the 35/70 machines of the era that I'm aware of...I'm sure other
brands had similar speed change arrangements.

Of the modern projectors, Kinoton's FP-75E is a mere push-button and can be
done safely on the fly.

Steve
John Anastasio
16 years ago
Permalink
Of course, of course....what was I thinking?
You're absolutely right and I had my head up my butt. The DP70 was an
amazing machine.
...
John R
16 years ago
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"Miracle of Todd AO" lived beyond "Oklahoma!" and "South Pacific". When
the United Artists chain opened their D-150 equipped Cinema 150 in Santa
Clara CA in 1966 they advertised a short "Wonders of D-150" (I believe
that was the title) as an added attraction to the 35mm Scope opening
feature "How To Steal A Million". I made the 150 mile trip from
Sacramento just to see it and presumably the new D-150 process. I was a
bit disappointed when "Miracle of Todd AO" (which I had seen several
times) hit the screen, although it looked mighty fine on that big curved
D-150 screen, as did "Oklahoma!" which they played a couple of months
later.
George Shelps
16 years ago
Permalink
I was a bit disappointed when "Miracle of
Todd AO" (which I had seen several
times) hit the screen, although it looked
mighty fine on that big curved D-150
screen, as did "Oklahoma!" which they\
played a couple of months later.
I saw it earlier in the 60s accompanying
a reissue of OKLAHOMA in 30fps Todd-AO









__________________________________


"The past is never dead. It's not even past."
__William Faulkner
Terry del Fuego
16 years ago
Permalink
Post by John R
"Miracle of Todd AO" lived beyond "Oklahoma!" and "South Pacific". When
the United Artists chain opened their D-150 equipped Cinema 150 in Santa
Clara CA in 1966 they advertised a short "Wonders of D-150" (I believe
that was the title) as an added attraction to the 35mm Scope opening
feature "How To Steal A Million". I made the 150 mile trip from
Sacramento just to see it and presumably the new D-150 process.
Sacramento had its own United Artists Cinema 150, which opened around
the same time...and never installed 70mm equipment!
George Shelps
16 years ago
Permalink
OKLAHOMA and SOUTH PACIFIC were
shown back to back on TCM tonight, and
the contrast between 30fps and 24fps
Todd-AO was clearly obvious. 30fps
looked like a new medium, 24fps seemed
only like an improved anamorphic process.

(SOUTH PACIFIC is the superior film,
but that's not the point here)









__________________________________


"The past is never dead. It's not even past."
__William Faulkner
Lincoln Spector
16 years ago
Permalink
Post by George Shelps
OKLAHOMA and SOUTH PACIFIC were
shown back to back on TCM tonight, and
the contrast between 30fps and 24fps
Todd-AO was clearly obvious. 30fps
looked like a new medium, 24fps seemed
only like an improved anamorphic process.
(SOUTH PACIFIC is the superior film,
but that's not the point here)
Of course, a 30fps film would make a better transition to American TV. No
3:2 pulldown.

Some years ago, I stumbled on Oklahoma on AMC (back when it was worth
watching). My son--a teenager at the time--looked at it and said, rather
perplexed, that in some strange way he couldn't put his finger on, it looked
like video, not a movie. I suspected it was the lack of 3:2 pulldown.

Lincoln
Peter H.
16 years ago
Permalink
Some years ago, I stumbled on Oklahoma on AMC (back when it was worth
watching). My son--a teenager at the time--looked at it and said, rather
perplexed, that in some strange way he couldn't put his finger on, it looked
like video, not a movie. I suspected it was the lack of 3:2 pulldown.
The 30 fps version is the definitive version.

However, it is the only 70mm title which was conventionally composited, and it
suffers from loss of register *and* from (color) timing bumps, at every effect,
fade-out, fade-in and dissolve.
Martin Hart
16 years ago
Permalink
In article <***@mb-m02.aol.com>, peterh5322
@aol.comminch says...
...
That's for sure, and it's undoubtedly the reason why there are so few
effects in the film. Some of the fades work okay because they've been
adequately camouflaged at the start and end.

Marty
--
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com
The American WideScreen Museum
MovieBear1
16 years ago
Permalink
about 10 years ago a friend showed a reel of South Pacific from an original
70mm print that had of course faded to pink. . . interestingy when it went into
a song that had been filtered blue the color looked perfect.at the end of the
number it went back to all its pink glory.

Matt Spero
Larry Karstens
16 years ago
Permalink
George;
You are right but I sure wish Josh Logan had never seen colored gel filters!!!!!
Post by George Shelps
__________________________________
"The past is never dead. It's not even past."
__William Faulkner
Steve
16 years ago
Permalink
Post by Larry Karstens
George;
You are right but I sure wish Josh Logan had never seen colored gel filters!!!!!
According to Joshua Logan's book "Movie Stars, Real People and Me" he
describes the filters as the biggest mistake of his career. He didn't
want the film to have a "picture postcard" look to it, so after
experimenting with different filters (some very subtle) he decided to use
the filters for the musical numbers, but in case it didn't work each
scene was to be filmed twice, with and without the filters. Producer
Buddy Adler then told him that he'd consulted with the color lab and had
been told that if Logan didn't like the filters they could remove them
from the print.

After filming Logan had to leave to make another film. He put together a
rough cut and left instructions regarding the color filters, which were
supposed to be subtle. He didn't see a finished print until it was
previewed in front of an audience. He pleaded with Fox to remove the
filters, but they told him that the film was scheduled to open in 10
days, and that to "leech" the colors from the print would take 3 months.

He wanted to get a sandwich board that read "I directed it, and I don't
like the colors either," and walk up and down outside every cinema where
the film was playing.

I don't know how films are "color corrected" for DVD transfers, but with
the advances made in computer technology, wouldn't it be possible for the
color filters to be removed?

Steve
manitou910
16 years ago
Permalink
...
On a related note, does anyone here know if there will ever be a DVD of
John Huston's "Reflections In A Golden Eye", originally shown with a
gold tint which Warner didn't like and removed from additional prints
(it's also missing from the pan/scan VHS of the movie)?







C.
Martin Hart
16 years ago
Permalink
In article <***@129.250.170.84>,
***@nospam.com says...

<BIG SNIP>
Post by Steve
I don't know how films are "color corrected" for DVD transfers, but with
the advances made in computer technology, wouldn't it be possible for the
color filters to be removed?
Steve
I've seen substantial parts of some of the musical numbers without the
color filters. I have no memory of where or when, but I was kind of
shocked. This makes us wonder if there are takes without the color
effects that survive.

As for using computer technology to remove the color effects, doubtless
it could do a better job than trying to photo-chemically remove the
effects but I'm not sure that it would be possible to repair all the
scenes. Jan-Eric Nystrom and I both are fairly good at doing this sort
of thing so maybe an experiment could be made using the current DVD.

Marty
--
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com
The American WideScreen Museum
Paul Penna
16 years ago
Permalink
Post by Martin Hart
As for using computer technology to remove the color effects, doubtless
it could do a better job than trying to photo-chemically remove the
effects but I'm not sure that it would be possible to repair all the
scenes. Jan-Eric Nystrom and I both are fairly good at doing this sort
of thing so maybe an experiment could be made using the current DVD.
How about putting some screen caps up somewhere in the Widescreen
Museum in case some others (like me, f'rinstance) might want to take a
crack at it? Thanks.
--
Paul Penna
Martin Hart
16 years ago
Permalink
In article <221020042019149104%***@sonic.net>, ***@sonic.net
says...
...
I have worked on a few scenes in "South Pacific" and have determined
that is it literally impossible to remove the effects of the color
filters. The biggest problem that prevents removal of the effects is
that they change throughout many scenes. Any attempt to remove the color
effects would yield a completely unacceptable image.

Anyone with a copy of the "South Pacific" DVD can make frame grabs and
attempt to fix the problems. Individual frames may be fixed but without
consistent color filtration it's not possible to do more than a few
seconds.

Marty
--
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com
The American WideScreen Museum
Lincoln Spector
16 years ago
Permalink
Actually, those colors make complete thematic sense. The movie, after all,
is about race prejudice--about the unreasoned hate of other human beings
just because of the color of their skin. So Logan brilliantly decided to
give many of the major characters a skin tone that everyone would hate.

NOTE TO THE HUMOR IMPAIRED: The argument above is not meant to be taken
seriously.

Lincoln
...
Stefan Adler
16 years ago
Permalink
Yep!
There was actually nothing to it. Even I could manage ;-)
After running Miracle in 30frps, you just closed the curtain and raised the
foootlights, but kept the house lights down and started the act 1 overture
of South Pacific. While it was running you had now problem changing the U2
motor, setting up the lamp with fresh carbons and putting the short on the
rewind table. You then even had time to do some nice mood shifting with the
curtain lights, ignite the secon arc lamp and open for main title. Then you
had a good ten minutes before the first change-over. Plenty of time for both
loading up reel 2 and rewinding Miracle, while you were focus compensating
for the increasing heat in the film gate. Oh happy days! I have a picture of
the original Victoria Todd-AO setup here:
Failed to load image: http://www1.tripnet.se/~adler/widescreen/u2.jpg
Beautiful 70mm cinema, with f=87mm and a sixty feet screen
Anyway This is how the procedure was done at the Victoria in Gothenburg,
Sweden in 1969.
//Stefan
Post by SGuttag
Well the original Todd-AO machines (DP70) had a switch for the change of speed
between 24 and 30 fps...a quicker change than even the lens.
The later single motor Norelco (AA2) projectors used a tranmission and dual
belt arrangement...again the change between 24 and 30 fps was a matter of mere
seconds (not even a minute).
Bauer (U2) had one move the motor between the two positions (less than one
minute procedure).
MLUTTHANS
16 years ago
Permalink
One more use of "The Miracle of Todd-AO"....

In 1968, the Tacoma Mall Cinerama opened with the wide-screen, stereophonic,
epic grandeur of..."Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?" (Why would a booker do
this?) Anyway, prior to the public opening, according to a friend of mine who
was in house management for United Theatres in Seattle at the time, staff were
shown "The Miracle of Todd-AO" in a private screening. I'm sure it was very
impressive, as the screen was (as I recall) 32x88', deeply curved.

--Matt Lutthans, Seattle

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