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Sign upI'm not sure if "Tsunami" is a good name. But I need your opinion. #5
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I side with @keiji. I speculate the term "Tsunami" was brought up because of the wave of attacks. |
I'm lacking context: was there a specific complaint? If so, perhaps that should be brought up. In terms of pure terminology, Tsunami, Hurricane, Tornado, Earthquake... all of these sound fine to me. They are dangerous, they are sometimes cause of great grief, but they are natural phenomena and I don't think there exists an underlying harmful intention. As a counter example, I think one could argue that a term like Kalashnikova (aka AK-47) represents tool made to specifically kill people and therefore should be avoided to be used in a project name. In this sense I think Tsunami seems OK to me. |
Hi. I am also a Japanese engineer. I know many people in Japan and other countries are affected by earthquakes and tsunamis, but, I feel no negative from the word "Tsunami" itself, just feel warning. So in my opinion, there are no need to change the name. |
IMHO: Keep the name (Never change it away) but watch tsunami videos in YouTube and please re-define the word of tsunami by the product. |
In fact, there is a song which has same name and is very famous in Japan. It was released in 2000. I think it indicates that whether some name is acceptable or not is related to historical context. The really big tsunami disaster was occurred in 2011 and 10 years have passed after that. Of course I still have pain and have slight feelings not want to recall it, but personally I don't think you need to change the name. Changing name is certainly an extra work and I think we shouldn't force it unless there is a huge requirement. But I also think it's safer if this tool will become very famous... (e.g. 20k stars) |
"Tsunami" definitely reminds me of the 3.11 disaster in Japan and makes me uneasy. IMO, the number of Japanese those feel uncomfortable due to this reason is not very small. I hope the name to be changed. |
Hi @madai0517, No, I think black/white and master/slave discussion is about discrimination. |
As a Japanese software developer, I felt it was nonsense to rename at a first glance. |
I'm leaning against the side to change the product name because of the following reasons:
Given above, I think this is a good opportunity to think about the product name with reviewing the Code of Conduct and the product marketing message. Though the latter one is not shared in this repository. If the authors have the background on naming the product, then it's great to have it publicly, and if not, I feel it's safer to have more descriptive name for the product. |
Hi, I'm a Tokyo-based developer. Why is this project using a "destructive" name? When I first heard "Tsunami", I thought it might be a kind of attacking tool. In my humble opinion, negative image of the word aside, it looks weird. |
"Tsunami" means an attacking tool rather than a defencing tool. I propose it should be named after a breakwater. |
I also thought "Tsunami" is a sort of mass destruction tool. Setting aside the disaster the word might imply, I hope products have the name which avoids such misunderstandings. |
Random dude here. I understand the feelings of Japanese devs thinking Tsunami might not be an appropriate name(my friend lost his home on 3.11 but luckily survived), but I also think they might be a bit too sensitive. Let's say if this product was named after some other natural disasters involving some deaths, like Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Earthquakes, Volcanic Eruptions, Avalanches, Landslides, Meteor strikes or something like that. If google team still thinks it's not that big problem, then yeah, I'd say go for it. If they don't, they should look for better names. EDIT: I've just found that there already is an web server framework called cyclone.io on python. We all should think carefully that bringing out sentimental logic could affect these existing products. 日本語版: 日本人の方々の「不適切じゃないか」という反応も理解はできるのですが(友人が家を失くしたりしたので)、若干過剰反応じゃないかなあと思わないでもないです。 例えばこのプロジェクトが津波じゃなくて別の人死が出る自然災害の名前から付けられたとして、それでもGoogleが問題ないと判断してるならそれで良いんじゃないかなと思います。例えば台風とか竜巻とか噴火とか火砕流とか雪崩とか地滑りとかメテオストライク的な。彼らがそれはちょっと…と思うのなら変えたほうが良いんじゃないかなって程度です。 追記: 先程cyclone.ioというpythonのwebサーバフレームワークがあることを知りました。これも津波と同様に毎年人死がある自然災害ですので、「人が死んだのに」とか「悲しくなる」的な論理はこういった既存のサービスにも持ち出されうるものですから、慎重に考えたいですね。 |
Original Issue author here. This thread is already getting to be dramatic with lots of Japanese comments, so let's please add any more comments if you are...
Hope you understand. Issueを作ったものです。 ここから先は、以下のいずれかに該当する方のコメントをお願いいたします。
ご理解の程よろしくおねがいします。 |
I have a question for authors of this OSS. What kind of wishes and/or expectations did you give this name? |
How about The problem is that: If this project continues to use this name, I cannot recommend this tool to my friends live in the Tohoku area. この名前のままだと「誰にでも気持ちよく紹介できるような名前ではない」という点が問題として残ると思います。 |
In my opinion, "Tsunami" is popular word like "TSUNAMI" that Japanese famous song. Anyway, my suggestion is "How about 'Shiosai not Tsunami". if this tool has meaning of wave. Please consider. |
If you say it's a natural phenomenon and it's not a problem, then even if you named it 9.11, it's just Doesn't that mean it's not a problem because of the date? === 自然現象だから問題ないというのであれば、仮に9.11という名前をつけたとしても、ただの日付だから問題ないという事になりませんか? |
By the way, maybe it's because I lost my house and family in the tsunami. If Google were a private developer with no influence over Japan in this corner of the world, the name of the software I think it's rather nonsensical to force people to change their names to As the software is also used by the Japanese, I think it is important to consider whether the name of the project, which is not directly related to the tsunami, really needs to be tsunami. === ちなみに私が家や家族を津波で失っているからかもしれませんが、 Googleが世界の片隅の日本に対して何の影響力もない個人開発者だったらソフトウェア名の改名を迫ることはむしろナンセンスだと思いますが 日本人も使うソフトウェアである以上、津波に直接関係しないプロジェクトの名前が、本当に津波である必要性があるのかは考えるべきだと思います |
Hi, I'm a Japanese developer. If the concept of the product is to be a tool to scan for vulnerabilities, Tsunami reminded me of something like a large-scale software attack, since I'm on the receiving end of a disaster. I thought a name that reminded me of a breakwater, like @zacky1972, would be good as another name. Thanks. |
@yuzujoe Thanks for your understanding. Let's hope @magl0 or someone else that is involved with this project writes something soon! |
Fantastic #letsDoThis also lets get rid of Dagger as well xD |
I have no idea about "Tsunami" is a good or bad name, but I'm simply interested in why this project named "Tsunami". |
This implies that Japanese people do not comment. Issues opened by discriminators should be closed. You should expel the discriminators. |
I don't disagree with using Tsunami as a product name, but I disagree with using Tsunami for commercial purposes. In general, people wouldn't accept someone to do unrelated business using people's pain. Many Japanese people would feel uncomfortable with the use of Tsunami for commercial purposes. If Tsunami is used for non-commercial and public benefit products or projects, it will be widely accepted. Another, do you want to use Pandemic for the name of this product? Using Tsunami for the name of this product is the same as it. Neither Pandemic nor Tsunami is appropriate for the name of this unrelated product. |
I'm from Chile and I find this name very offensive. +1 for renaming. Just kidding. On a more serious note, we need to stop this kind of hypocrisy. Not 100% sure if this issue was merely a satire or not. From a number of experiments, I can conclude Google or any other lefty US tech company shares the same standards for this kind of naming issues: if something is about white/black slavery, remove it, if not, keep it. Are what they're doing ridiculous? Yes. Do they have double-standards? Yes. But, do we want to keep going with this movement? Oh hell no, please don't bring us back to the world where totalitarianism literally killed art. |
@blacklistisnotracist I can understand your words because I, and almost Japanese, were also "innocence" for the word "Tsunami", before 3.11. There are some evidences, i.e. a famous Japanese song "Tsunami", singed by Southern All Stars, and a famous Japanese animation movie "Ponyo on the cliff", which describes a very fantastic story before and after "Tsunami". A "Tsunami" is so destructive that its victims may flash back disgusting and clear images against their minds. Imagine your customer that you recommend to introduce this OSS to is such a victim of Tsunami. This causes the worst user experiences. |
We, Japanese software engineers, are faced with such kind of issues, because there are too many victims of Tsunami in Japan! |
@zacky1972 According to master banners, replacing master/slave with parent/child is fine, while there're tons of orphans who would find "parent" as offensive as "master." If you start eliminating words just because of some bad memories of some people, then you'll never be able to use any word. Literally ANY word can offend some people. Even if you find a good alternative, that word is offensive for another group of people. Will we rename again? No, right? Why? Because the number of people is higher for "tsunami", "master", or "blacklist"? Wound't it become some kind of popularity contest, while we advocate inclusiveness for minorities? |
@blacklistisnotracist Even though so, I believe we can continue to try to select suitable words in order to make them more harmless. As you said, it may cause infinite efforts to change the words. Even though so, I don't think such efforts become useless. I believe "the history of justice" is made from such efforts. |
I'm with @blacklistisnotracist . Banning words depending on its sphere of influence is somewhat a map of denial of minority. I think we should seek true fairness rather than walking that way. Speaking of that, I don't think the name represents the OSS much. |
Were you trying to say that these were the evidence of the word "tsunami" being a sensitive word for Japanese people? Ok, then it's more convincing than banning "master" and "blacklist" where only few had found them offensive and no media have banned the words. I can imagine how Google will change the name of this product based on the potential harm on their brand in Japanese market. These pieces of evidence might make a good material for marketing folks. That said, I would say "tsunami" is a normal word and it doesn't refer to a specific event.
Nah, you don't get my point. My point is, any word is equally harmful for different people. You might associate "tsunami" with the specific disastrous event that happened in 2011 in Tohoku, but other people would be equally hurt by the newly selected name. So the better and more accurate claim you should be making is "The number of people who would be offended might be smaller at the expense of hurting another, smaller group of people."
Not really. The history has proven banning words never changed anything. |
I've just noticed why I've been making an effort and a commitment to it, by discussion with @blacklistisnotracist . |
No. These are the evidence that almost Japanese were innocent to the word "Tsunami". |
What do you mean by "innocent"? |
#5 (comment) @inductor |
Of course, all Japanese know Tsunami is a kind of disasters and that Tsunami causes tragedies historically. |
@intercept6 Did you mean the comment #5 (comment) forces opinions that follows it to be limited only by nationality? |
@zacky1972 |
Still not getting what you're trying to say. Maybe better look words up in a dictionary? I'm assuming you mean "most of" by "almost" and "insensitive" by "innocent",,, so you're saying Japanese people didn't feel anything before the tsunami in 2011 (and the songs and movies are the evidence of this claim) but after that the word became sensitive and the usage of tsunami has been problematic since then? |
@intercept6 I don't think so because it also describes the following:
I don't interpret "not only non-Japanese point of view" as forcing this discussion to limit a person that gives opinions to only non-Japanese, because it allows answer to somebody's question and/or opinion in another aspect, even if Japanese say something. If you assert to clarify it, I agree it. |
Yes, I said so. I believe your values are changed after coronavirus. Tsunami makes values of Japanese change so. |
@zacky1972 If so, I would like to make it clear that I do not limit my opinion. |
I see. |
Ok. Corona beer sounds offensive to you? |
@blacklistisnotracist However, Tsunami of OSS is different. It is named, not before 3.11, which is known as one of the worst disasters of the world. |
@zacky1972 Tsunamis have caused disasters for centuries but there's a popular song named "Tsunami"? Interesting. Maybe Arashi, a popular Japanese idol group, should also be renamed to something else! |
Naming new product and changing the name of long lived product is a different issue. Additionally, "Tsunami" is word borrowed from Japanese. And many Japanese still have strong association between "Tsunami" and the 3.11 disaster. So listening on how Japanese people feels when hear the word "Tsunami" is a good consideration.
The popular song "TSUNAMI" by "Southern All Stars" (2000) was named before the 3.11 disaster (2011).
Unlike the "Tsunami", the word "Arashi" doesn't have strong association to a specific disaster. |
Why don’t we just wait for the googles statement now |
Well, Arashi seems to mean "storm", and I know a lot of people died of storms. It's the same. |
I think it is inappropriate to tell things just by the person who passed away. 私は、亡くなった人だけで判別をするのは不適切だと思います。 |
Please stop any more comments until google posts here |
OK, Let's wait for the google statement. But I would like to only say this. maybe I think many people have a negative image of a Tsunami, however, I wonder the person with this name doesn't would like people have a negative image for themselves name. So, I just can only say that Tsunami is meaning not always negative in Japanese. |
inductor commentedyesterday
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edited
Hello. I am a Japanese engineer.
I am not claiming this is bad, you must change the name, or anything like that.
I opened this issue to ask opinions to y'all.
I am not SUPER familiar with the recent "wording" issues around protests so I apologize in advance but I wonder if you ever discussed this is a good naming.
Japan and some countries have had a huge earth quake, which brought a huge tsunami afterwards. The impact those gave still remains at the disaster area. Even though I am not one of the victim, I felt like I have to ask this, but I don't want to make any drama so if you want to close this issue you can, but at least I would like some opinions from the OSS team.
Thanks,
日本人の方向けに追記(adding some follow-up for Japanese speakers):
こちらのツイートでも表明していますが、Issueを立てた目的は「関わる皆さんの意見」を問うものであり、私が「日本人にとってこれは不謹慎に聞こえる」と言うために立てたIssueではありません。主語の大きな意見を言ってるように勘違いされた方が散見されたので、あしからず・・・。