The Lost Interview
Conducted by Pierre Berton on December 9, 1971, Hong Kong
Pierre Berton: Bruce Lee faces a real dilemma. He´s on the verge of stardom in the United
States with a projected TV series on the horizon, but he´s just achieved
superstardom as a film actor here in Hong Kong.
So, what does he choose, the East or the West? The kind of problem that most
budding movie actors would welcome.
Moderator: It´s the Pierre Berton Show, the program that comes to you from the major
capitols of the world. This edition comes to you from Hong Kong, and Pierre´s
guest is the man who taught karate, judo and Chinese boxing to James Garner,
Steve McQueen, Lee Marvin and James Coburn. The newest Mandarin superstar,
known in the West for his appearances in Batman, The Green Hornet, Ironside
and Longstreet. His name is Bruce Lee -- and he doesn´t even speak Mandarin!
And here´s Pierre:
Pierre Berton: How can you play in Mandarin movies if you don´t even speak Mandarin?
How do you do that?
Bruce Lee: Well, first of all, I speak only Cantonese, so, I mean, there is quite a difference as
far as pronunciation and things like that go.
PB: So, somebody else´s voice is used, right?
BL: Definitely! Definitely!
PB: You just make the words? Doesn´t it sound strange when you go to the movies, especially
in Hong Kong, in your own town, and you see yourself with somebody else´s voice?
BL: Well, not really, you see, because most of the Mandarin pictures done here are dubbed
anyway. I mean, in this regard, they shoot without sound. So it doesn´t make any
difference.
PB: Your lips never quite made the right words, did they?
BL: Yeah, well, that´s where the difficulty lies, you see. Because the Cantonese have a
different way of saying things, -- I mean, different from the Mandarin. So I have to find
like something similar to that and keep a kind of a feeling going behind that -- something
that´s matching the Mandarin deal. Does it sound complicated?
PB: Just like in the silent picture days. But I gather in the movies made here the dialogue is
pretty stilted anyway.
BL: Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, you see -- to me, a motion picture is motion. I mean, you
gotta keep the dialogue down to the minimum.
PB: Did you look at many Mandarin movies before you started playing in your first one?
BL: Yes.
PB: What did you think of them when you saw them?
BL: Quality-wise, I mean, I have to admit that it´s not quite up to the standard. However, it is
growing, and it is getting higher and higher and going toward that standard that what I
would term quality.
PB: They say the secret of your success in that movie The Big Boss, such a success here,
that rocketed you to stardom in Asia, was that you did your own fighting. As an expert in
the various martial arts in China, what did you think of the fighting that you saw in the
movies that you studied before you became a star?
BL: Well, I mean, definitely in the beginning, I had no intention whatsoever that what I was
practicing, and what I´m still practicing now, would lead to this -- to begin with. But
martial art has a very, very deep meaning as far as my life is concerned, because, as an
actor, as a martial artist, as a human being, all these -- I have learned from martial art.
PB: Maybe for our audience who doesn´t know what it means, you might explain exactly
what you mean by martial art?
BL: Right. Martial art includes all the combative arts like karate, judo, Chinese gung fu, or
Chinese boxing, whatever you call it. All those, you see. Like aikido, Korean karate -- I
could go on and on and on. But it´s a combative form of fighting. I mean, some of them
became sport, but some of them are still not. I mean, they use, for instance, kicking to the
groin, jabbing fingers into eyes, and things like that.
PB: No wonder you´re successful in it! The Chinese movies are full of this kind of action
anyway -- they needed a guy like you!
BL: (laughs) Violance, man!
PB: So you didn´t have to use a double when you moved into the motion picture role here?
BL: No.
PB: You did it all yourself?
BL: Right.
PB: Can you break five or six pieces of wood with your hand or your foot?
BL: I´d probably break my hand and foot. (laughs)
PB: But tell me a little bit....you set up a school in Hollywood, didn´t you?
BL: Yes.
PB: For people like James Garner, Steve McQueen, and the others.
BL: Yes.
PB: Why would they want to learn Chinese martial art? Because of a movie role?
BL: Not really. Most of them, you see....to me, or at least the way that when I teach it, all
type of knowledge means self-knowledge. So, therefore they are coming in and asking
me to teach them, not so much of how to defend themselves or how to do somebody in.
Rather, they want to learn to express themselves through some movement, be it anger, be
it determination or whatsoever. So, in other words, what I´m saying is, he´s paying me to
show him, in combative form, the art of expressing the human body.
PB: Which is acting, in a sense, isn´t it? Or it would be a useful tool for an actor to have.
BL: Well, it might sound too philosophical, but it´s unacting acting, or acting unacting.
PB: You´ve lost me!
BL: I have, huh? So what I´m saying....Actually, you see, I mean, it´s a combination of both.
I mean, here is the natural instinct, and here is control. You are to combine the two in
harmony. Not,....if you have one to the extreme, you´ll be very unscientific, and if you
have another to the extreme, you become all of a sudden a mechanical man, no longer a
human being. So it is a successful combination of both. So, therefore, it is not only pure
naturalness, or unnaturalness. The ideal is unnatural naturalness or natural unnaturalness.
PB: Yin/Yang, eh?
BL: You´re right, man, that´s it.(laughs)
PB: One of your students, James Coburn, played in a movie called Our Man Flint, in which
he used karate. Was that what he learned from you?
BL: He learned it after that film.... You see, actually I do not teach karate,
because I do not believe in styles anymore. I mean, I do not believe that there is such
thing as like the Chinese way of fighting, or, the Japanese way of fighting, or
whatever way of fighting, because unless human beings have three arms and four legs,
we will have a different form of fighting. But basically, we have only two hands and two
feet. So styles tend to not only separate men, you know, because they have their own
doctrines, and then the doctrine became the gospel truth that you cannot change! But, if
you do not have styles, you just say, Well, here I am as a human being: how can I express
myself totally and completely? -- Now, that way you won´t create a style, because style
is a crystallization, you know. I mean, that way it´s a process of continuing growth.
PB: You talked about Chinese boxing. How does it differ from, say, our kind of boxing?
BL: Well, first we use the feet.
PB: Aha, that´s a start.
BL: And then we use the elbows, and....
PB: ....use the thumb.
BL: You name it, man, we use it.
PB: You use it all?
BL: You have to, you see, because, I mean, that is the expression of the human body.
Everything -- not just the hand! And when you´re talking about combat....Well, if it is a
sport, now you´re talking about something else. You have regulations; you have rules.
But when you´re talking about fighting -- as it is, with no rules -- well, then, baby, you
better train every part of your body! And when you do punch -- now, I´m leaning forward
a little bit, hoping not to hurt any camera angle -- I mean, you gotta put the whole hip into
it and snap it! And get all your energy in there and make this (fist) into a weapon.
PB: I don´t wanna tangle with you in any dark alley, I´ll tell you that right now! You came at
me pretty fast there! What is the difference between Chinese boxing and what we see
these young men doing at eight o´ clock every morning on the rooftops and in the parks,
called shadow boxing?
BL: Well, actually, you see, that is part of Chinese boxing. There are so many schools,
different schools. Well, that´s good. I mean, I´m very glad to see that, because at least
somebody is caring for their own body, right? I mean, that´s a good sign. Well, it´s a kind
of a slow form of exercise which is called tai chi chuan -- and I´m speaking Mandarin just
now. (laughs) In Cantonese: tai kik kune, o.k.? And it´s more of an exercise for the
elderly, not so much for the young.
PB: Gimme a demonstration, show me if you could do it, a little bit of it.
BL: I mean, hand-wise, it´s very slow (demonstrates), and you push it out, but all the times
you are keeping the continuity going. -- Bending, stretching, everything, you know. You
just keep it moving.
PB: It´s like a ballet dancer, there.
BL: Yeah, it is. I mean, to them, you see, the idea is running water never grows stale, so
you gotta just keep on flowing.
PB: Of all your students famous -- James Garner, Steve McQueen, Lee Marvin, James
Coburn, Roman Polanski -- which was the best? Who adapted best to this Oriental form
of exercise and defense?
BL: Well, depending, o.k.? Now, as a fighter, Steve McQueen....now, he is good in that
department, because that son of a gun got the toughness in him, you know?
PB: Yeah, I´ve seen it on the screen.
BL: I mean, he would say, All right, baby, here I am, man., you know. And he´ll do it!
Now, James Coburn is a peace-loving man.
PB: Yeah, I met him.
BL: Right. I mean, you met him. I mean, he´s really, really nice. I mean, super mellow and all
that! You know what I mean? Now, he appreciates the philosophical part of it, therefore
his understanding of it is deeper than Steve´s. So it´s really hard to say. You see what I´m
saying now? I mean, it´s different, I mean, depending on what you see in it.
PB: Interesting, that we don´t -- in our world -- and haven´t since the days of the Greeks who
did, combined philosophy and art with sport. But quite clearly the Oriental attitude is
that the three are facets of the same thing.
BL: Man, listen! You see, really, to me, o.k.? To me, ultimately, martial art means honestly
expressing yourself. Now, it is very difficult to do. I mean, it is easy for me to put on a
show and be cocky, and be flooded with a cocky feeling and then feel like pretty cool and
all that. Or I can make all kinds of phony things, you know what I mean, -- blinded by it.
Or I can show you some really fancy movement. But to express oneself honestly, not
lying to oneself and to express myself honestly -- now, that, my friend, is very hard to do.
And you have to train. You have to keep your reflexes, so that when you want it, it´s
there! When you want to move, you are moving. And when you move, you are
determined to move. Not taking one inch, not anything less than that. If I want to punch,
I´m gonna do it, man. And I´m gonna do it, you see. So, I mean, so, that is the type of
thing you have to train yourself into; to become one with the....You think and....
PB: Yeah, it is very un-Western, this attitude. I wanna ask you about your movie and
TV career. But first, we take a break -- and I´ll be back with Bruce Lee.
(Commercial break)
PB: I´ve been talking with Bruce Lee mainly about the Chinese martial arts, which include
things like Chinese boxing, karate, and judo, just what he taught, when he was in
Hollywood after he left the University of Washington, whereof he studied, of all things,
philosophy, if you can believe that! But he did! But perhaps you understand why the
two of us were together from the first half of the program. And you can perhaps
understand how he got into films and knew lot of actors. But I´m told that you got the job
on The Green Hornet, where you played Kato the chauffeur, mainly because you are the
only Chinese-looking guy who could pronounce the name of the leading character --
Britt Reid!
BL: (laughs) I meant that as a joke, of course! And it´s a heck of a name, man. I mean,
everytime I said it at that time I was superconscious! I mean, really, that´s another
interesting thing. Let´s say if you learn to speak Chinese. I mean, it´s not difficult to learn
and speak the words. The hard thing, the difficult thing....it´s behind, what is the meaning,
what brought on the expression and feelings behind those words. Like when I first arrived
in the United States and I looked at a Caucasian, and I really would not know whether he
was putting me on or is he really angry, because we have a different way of reacting. You
see, those are the difficult things, you see?
PB: It´s almost as if you came upon a strange race where a smile didn´t mean what it does
to us. In fact, a smile doesn´t always mean the same, does it?
BL: Of course not.
PB: Tell me about the big break when you played in Longstreet.
BL: Ah, that´s it.
PB: I must tell our audience that Bruce Lee had a bit part, or a supporting role, in the
Longstreet series and this had an enormous effect on the audience. What was it?
BL: Well, you see, the title of that particular episode of Longstreet is called The Way of the
Intercepting Fist. Now, I think the successful ingredient in it was because I was being
Bruce Lee.
PB: Yourself.
BL: Myself, right. And did that part....just expressed myself, like I say, honestly expressed
myself at that time. Because of that, I got favourable mention, like in the New York
Times, which said, like: The Chinaman, who incidentally came off quite convincingly
enough to earn himself a television series, and so on, and so on, and so forth.
PB: Can you remember the lines by Stirling Silliphant, the key lines?
BL: He´s one of my students, you know that?
PB: Was he, too?
BL: Yes. (laughs)
PB: Everybody´s your student! But there were some lines that expressed your philosophy, I
don´t know if you´d remember them right now.
BL: Oh, I remember them!
PB: Let´s hear! You were talking to Longstreet, who was played by James Franciscus.
BL: I said: Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless -- like water. Now, you put water into a
cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it in a
teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
Like that, you see?
PB: I see, I get the idea, I get the power behind it. So, now, two things have happened: First,
there´s a pretty good chance that you´ll get a TV series in the States called The Warrior?
(Kung Fu). Isn´t it in which you use the martial arts in a Western setting?
BL: Well, that was the original idea. Now, Paramount....you know, I did Longstreet for
Paramount, and Paramount wants me to be in a television series. On the other hand,
Warner Brothers wants me to be in another one. But both of them, I think, they want me
to be in a modernized type of a thing. And they think that Western idea is out,
whereas I want....
PB: You wanted the Western, eh?
BL: Because, you see, I mean, how else can you justify all these punching and kicking and
violence, except in that period of the West? I mean, nowadays, I mean, you don´t go
around on the street kicking people or punching people, because if you do....-- bang!
That´s it. I mean, I don´t care how good you are, you know?
PB: But this is true also of the Chinese dramas, which are mainly costume dramas. They´re
all full of blood and gore over here in Hong Kong.
BL: Oh, you mean here? Yeah, well, unfortunately. You see, I hope that the picture I´m in
would either explain why the violence was done. Whether right or wrong or whatnot. But
unfortunately, the pictures, most of them here, are done mainly just for the sake of
violence, you know what I mean? Like, you know, fighting for thirty minutes, getting
stabbed fifty times.... (microphone falls off)
PB: Let me give you your microphone back....
BL: (I´m a martial artist....)
PB: I´m fascinated that you came back to Hong Kong on the verge of success in Hollywood --
and full of it -- and suddenly, on the strength of one picture, you become a superstar.
Everybody knows you, you have to change your phone number, you get mobbed in the
streets. Now, what are you going to do? Are you going to be able to live in both worlds?
Are you going to be a superstar here, or one in the States, or both?
BL: Well, let me say this: First of all, the word superstar really turns me off, and I´ll tell you
why. Because the word star, man, is an illusion; it´s something what the public calls you.
You should look upon oneself as an actor, man. I mean, you would be very pleased if
somebody says, Hey, man, you are a super actor! It is much better than superstar.
PB: Yes, but you´ve got to admit that you are a superstar, if you´re gonna give me the truth!
BL: I am now honestly saying this, o.k.?: Yes, I have been very successful, o.k., but, I mean, I
do not look upon myself as a star. I really don´t, I mean, believe me, man, when I say it!
I mean, I´m not saying it because....
PB: So, what are you gonna do? Let´s get back to the question: are you going to go to stay in
Hong Kong and be famous, or are you gonna go to the United States and be famous, or
are you gonna try and eat your cake and have it, too?
BL: I am gonna do both, because, you see, I have already made up my mind that in the
United States, I think, something about the Oriental, I mean the true Oriental, should be
shown.
PB: Hollywood sure as heck hasn´t!
BL: You better believe it, man. I mean, it´s always that pigtail and bouncing around
chop-chop, you know? With the eyes slanted and all that. And I think that´s very, very
out of date.
PB: Is it true that you, in the first job you had, was being cast as Charlie Chan´s Number
One Son?
BL: Yeah, Number One Son. (laughs)
PB: But they never made the movie?
BL: No. They were gonna make it into a, like, new Chinese James Bond type of a thing:
Now that old man Chan is dead -- Charlie is dead -- and his son is carrying on.
PB: But they didn´t do that.
BL: No. Batman came along, you see, and then everything started to be going into that kind of
thing.
PB: Like The Green Hornet, which you´re in?
BL: Right. By the way, I did a really terrible job in there, I have to say.
PB: Really? You didn´t like yourself in The Green Hornet? I didn´t see it.
BL: Oh, no.
PB: Let me ask you, however, about the problems that you face as a Chinese hero in an
American series. Have people come up in the industry and said: Well, we don´t know
how the audience is gonna take a non-American?
BL: Well, such question has been raised. In fact, it is being discussed, and that is why
The Warrior is probably not gonna be on, you see. Because, unfortunately, such thing
does exist in this world, you see. Like, I don´t know, in certain part of the country, right?
Where, like, they think that business-wise it´s a risk. And I don´t blame them, and I
don´t blame them. I mean, in the same way it´s like in Hong Kong: if a foreigner came
and became a star, if I were the man with the money, I probably would have my own
worry of whether or not the acceptance would be there. But that´s all right. Because if
you honestly express yourself, it doesn´t matter, you see, because you gonna do it!
PB: How about the other side of the coin? Is it possible that you´re pretty hip and fairly
Americanized? Are you too Western for Oriental audiences? What do you think?
BL: Yo, man,....how? I have been criticized for that.
PB: You have?
BL: Oh, definitely. Well, let me say this: When I do the Chinese films, I´ll try my best not to
be as American as I have been adjust to for the last twelve years in the States. But when
I go back to the States, it seems to be the other way around, you know what I mean?
PB: You´re too exotic, eh?
BL: Yeah, man. I mean, they´re trying to get me to do things that are really for the sake of
being exotic, you understand what I´m trying to say?
PB: Oh, sure. When you live in both worlds, it brings its problems as well as its advantages.
And you´ve got both.
Time to go to a commercial. We´ll be back in a moment -- with Bruce Lee!
(Commercial break)
PB: Let me ask you whether the change in attitude on the part of the Nixon administration
toward China has helped your chances of starring in an American TV series?
BL: (laughs) Well, first of all, this happened before that. But I do think that things of Chinese
will be quite interesting for the next few years. I mean, not that I´m politically inclined
toward anything, you understand what I´m trying to say?
PB: I understand that, but I was just wondering.
BL: I mean, once the opening of China (happens), that will bring more understanding, more
things that are, hey, like different, you know? And maybe in the contrast of comparison
some new thing might grow. So, therefore, I mean, it´s a very rich period to be in.
I mean, like if I were born, let´s say, fourty years ago, if I had a thought in my mind,
I said, Boy, I´m gonna star in a movie or star in a television series in America -- well,
that might be a vague dream. But I think, right now,....maybe, man.
PB: Do you still think of yourself as Chinese, or do you ever think of yourself as
North American?
BL: You know what I want to think of myself? As a human being. Because, I mean, and I
don´t wanna sound like As Confucius says, but under the sky, under the heaven, man,
there is but one family. It just so happens, man, that people are different.
PB: O.k., we gotta go. Thank you, Bruce Lee for coming here, thank you for watching!
BL: Thank you, Pierre!
credit goes to Gin Lai also for the Bruce Lee Dan Lee interview...sorry !!
Conducted by Pierre Berton on December 9, 1971, Hong Kong
Pierre Berton: Bruce Lee faces a real dilemma. He´s on the verge of stardom in the United
States with a projected TV series on the horizon, but he´s just achieved
superstardom as a film actor here in Hong Kong.
So, what does he choose, the East or the West? The kind of problem that most
budding movie actors would welcome.
Moderator: It´s the Pierre Berton Show, the program that comes to you from the major
capitols of the world. This edition comes to you from Hong Kong, and Pierre´s
guest is the man who taught karate, judo and Chinese boxing to James Garner,
Steve McQueen, Lee Marvin and James Coburn. The newest Mandarin superstar,
known in the West for his appearances in Batman, The Green Hornet, Ironside
and Longstreet. His name is Bruce Lee -- and he doesn´t even speak Mandarin!
And here´s Pierre:
Pierre Berton: How can you play in Mandarin movies if you don´t even speak Mandarin?
How do you do that?
Bruce Lee: Well, first of all, I speak only Cantonese, so, I mean, there is quite a difference as
far as pronunciation and things like that go.
PB: So, somebody else´s voice is used, right?
BL: Definitely! Definitely!
PB: You just make the words? Doesn´t it sound strange when you go to the movies, especially
in Hong Kong, in your own town, and you see yourself with somebody else´s voice?
BL: Well, not really, you see, because most of the Mandarin pictures done here are dubbed
anyway. I mean, in this regard, they shoot without sound. So it doesn´t make any
difference.
PB: Your lips never quite made the right words, did they?
BL: Yeah, well, that´s where the difficulty lies, you see. Because the Cantonese have a
different way of saying things, -- I mean, different from the Mandarin. So I have to find
like something similar to that and keep a kind of a feeling going behind that -- something
that´s matching the Mandarin deal. Does it sound complicated?
PB: Just like in the silent picture days. But I gather in the movies made here the dialogue is
pretty stilted anyway.
BL: Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, you see -- to me, a motion picture is motion. I mean, you
gotta keep the dialogue down to the minimum.
PB: Did you look at many Mandarin movies before you started playing in your first one?
BL: Yes.
PB: What did you think of them when you saw them?
BL: Quality-wise, I mean, I have to admit that it´s not quite up to the standard. However, it is
growing, and it is getting higher and higher and going toward that standard that what I
would term quality.
PB: They say the secret of your success in that movie The Big Boss, such a success here,
that rocketed you to stardom in Asia, was that you did your own fighting. As an expert in
the various martial arts in China, what did you think of the fighting that you saw in the
movies that you studied before you became a star?
BL: Well, I mean, definitely in the beginning, I had no intention whatsoever that what I was
practicing, and what I´m still practicing now, would lead to this -- to begin with. But
martial art has a very, very deep meaning as far as my life is concerned, because, as an
actor, as a martial artist, as a human being, all these -- I have learned from martial art.
PB: Maybe for our audience who doesn´t know what it means, you might explain exactly
what you mean by martial art?
BL: Right. Martial art includes all the combative arts like karate, judo, Chinese gung fu, or
Chinese boxing, whatever you call it. All those, you see. Like aikido, Korean karate -- I
could go on and on and on. But it´s a combative form of fighting. I mean, some of them
became sport, but some of them are still not. I mean, they use, for instance, kicking to the
groin, jabbing fingers into eyes, and things like that.
PB: No wonder you´re successful in it! The Chinese movies are full of this kind of action
anyway -- they needed a guy like you!
BL: (laughs) Violance, man!
PB: So you didn´t have to use a double when you moved into the motion picture role here?
BL: No.
PB: You did it all yourself?
BL: Right.
PB: Can you break five or six pieces of wood with your hand or your foot?
BL: I´d probably break my hand and foot. (laughs)
PB: But tell me a little bit....you set up a school in Hollywood, didn´t you?
BL: Yes.
PB: For people like James Garner, Steve McQueen, and the others.
BL: Yes.
PB: Why would they want to learn Chinese martial art? Because of a movie role?
BL: Not really. Most of them, you see....to me, or at least the way that when I teach it, all
type of knowledge means self-knowledge. So, therefore they are coming in and asking
me to teach them, not so much of how to defend themselves or how to do somebody in.
Rather, they want to learn to express themselves through some movement, be it anger, be
it determination or whatsoever. So, in other words, what I´m saying is, he´s paying me to
show him, in combative form, the art of expressing the human body.
PB: Which is acting, in a sense, isn´t it? Or it would be a useful tool for an actor to have.
BL: Well, it might sound too philosophical, but it´s unacting acting, or acting unacting.
PB: You´ve lost me!
BL: I have, huh? So what I´m saying....Actually, you see, I mean, it´s a combination of both.
I mean, here is the natural instinct, and here is control. You are to combine the two in
harmony. Not,....if you have one to the extreme, you´ll be very unscientific, and if you
have another to the extreme, you become all of a sudden a mechanical man, no longer a
human being. So it is a successful combination of both. So, therefore, it is not only pure
naturalness, or unnaturalness. The ideal is unnatural naturalness or natural unnaturalness.
PB: Yin/Yang, eh?
BL: You´re right, man, that´s it.(laughs)
PB: One of your students, James Coburn, played in a movie called Our Man Flint, in which
he used karate. Was that what he learned from you?
BL: He learned it after that film.... You see, actually I do not teach karate,
because I do not believe in styles anymore. I mean, I do not believe that there is such
thing as like the Chinese way of fighting, or, the Japanese way of fighting, or
whatever way of fighting, because unless human beings have three arms and four legs,
we will have a different form of fighting. But basically, we have only two hands and two
feet. So styles tend to not only separate men, you know, because they have their own
doctrines, and then the doctrine became the gospel truth that you cannot change! But, if
you do not have styles, you just say, Well, here I am as a human being: how can I express
myself totally and completely? -- Now, that way you won´t create a style, because style
is a crystallization, you know. I mean, that way it´s a process of continuing growth.
PB: You talked about Chinese boxing. How does it differ from, say, our kind of boxing?
BL: Well, first we use the feet.
PB: Aha, that´s a start.
BL: And then we use the elbows, and....
PB: ....use the thumb.
BL: You name it, man, we use it.
PB: You use it all?
BL: You have to, you see, because, I mean, that is the expression of the human body.
Everything -- not just the hand! And when you´re talking about combat....Well, if it is a
sport, now you´re talking about something else. You have regulations; you have rules.
But when you´re talking about fighting -- as it is, with no rules -- well, then, baby, you
better train every part of your body! And when you do punch -- now, I´m leaning forward
a little bit, hoping not to hurt any camera angle -- I mean, you gotta put the whole hip into
it and snap it! And get all your energy in there and make this (fist) into a weapon.
PB: I don´t wanna tangle with you in any dark alley, I´ll tell you that right now! You came at
me pretty fast there! What is the difference between Chinese boxing and what we see
these young men doing at eight o´ clock every morning on the rooftops and in the parks,
called shadow boxing?
BL: Well, actually, you see, that is part of Chinese boxing. There are so many schools,
different schools. Well, that´s good. I mean, I´m very glad to see that, because at least
somebody is caring for their own body, right? I mean, that´s a good sign. Well, it´s a kind
of a slow form of exercise which is called tai chi chuan -- and I´m speaking Mandarin just
now. (laughs) In Cantonese: tai kik kune, o.k.? And it´s more of an exercise for the
elderly, not so much for the young.
PB: Gimme a demonstration, show me if you could do it, a little bit of it.
BL: I mean, hand-wise, it´s very slow (demonstrates), and you push it out, but all the times
you are keeping the continuity going. -- Bending, stretching, everything, you know. You
just keep it moving.
PB: It´s like a ballet dancer, there.
BL: Yeah, it is. I mean, to them, you see, the idea is running water never grows stale, so
you gotta just keep on flowing.
PB: Of all your students famous -- James Garner, Steve McQueen, Lee Marvin, James
Coburn, Roman Polanski -- which was the best? Who adapted best to this Oriental form
of exercise and defense?
BL: Well, depending, o.k.? Now, as a fighter, Steve McQueen....now, he is good in that
department, because that son of a gun got the toughness in him, you know?
PB: Yeah, I´ve seen it on the screen.
BL: I mean, he would say, All right, baby, here I am, man., you know. And he´ll do it!
Now, James Coburn is a peace-loving man.
PB: Yeah, I met him.
BL: Right. I mean, you met him. I mean, he´s really, really nice. I mean, super mellow and all
that! You know what I mean? Now, he appreciates the philosophical part of it, therefore
his understanding of it is deeper than Steve´s. So it´s really hard to say. You see what I´m
saying now? I mean, it´s different, I mean, depending on what you see in it.
PB: Interesting, that we don´t -- in our world -- and haven´t since the days of the Greeks who
did, combined philosophy and art with sport. But quite clearly the Oriental attitude is
that the three are facets of the same thing.
BL: Man, listen! You see, really, to me, o.k.? To me, ultimately, martial art means honestly
expressing yourself. Now, it is very difficult to do. I mean, it is easy for me to put on a
show and be cocky, and be flooded with a cocky feeling and then feel like pretty cool and
all that. Or I can make all kinds of phony things, you know what I mean, -- blinded by it.
Or I can show you some really fancy movement. But to express oneself honestly, not
lying to oneself and to express myself honestly -- now, that, my friend, is very hard to do.
And you have to train. You have to keep your reflexes, so that when you want it, it´s
there! When you want to move, you are moving. And when you move, you are
determined to move. Not taking one inch, not anything less than that. If I want to punch,
I´m gonna do it, man. And I´m gonna do it, you see. So, I mean, so, that is the type of
thing you have to train yourself into; to become one with the....You think and....
PB: Yeah, it is very un-Western, this attitude. I wanna ask you about your movie and
TV career. But first, we take a break -- and I´ll be back with Bruce Lee.
(Commercial break)
PB: I´ve been talking with Bruce Lee mainly about the Chinese martial arts, which include
things like Chinese boxing, karate, and judo, just what he taught, when he was in
Hollywood after he left the University of Washington, whereof he studied, of all things,
philosophy, if you can believe that! But he did! But perhaps you understand why the
two of us were together from the first half of the program. And you can perhaps
understand how he got into films and knew lot of actors. But I´m told that you got the job
on The Green Hornet, where you played Kato the chauffeur, mainly because you are the
only Chinese-looking guy who could pronounce the name of the leading character --
Britt Reid!
BL: (laughs) I meant that as a joke, of course! And it´s a heck of a name, man. I mean,
everytime I said it at that time I was superconscious! I mean, really, that´s another
interesting thing. Let´s say if you learn to speak Chinese. I mean, it´s not difficult to learn
and speak the words. The hard thing, the difficult thing....it´s behind, what is the meaning,
what brought on the expression and feelings behind those words. Like when I first arrived
in the United States and I looked at a Caucasian, and I really would not know whether he
was putting me on or is he really angry, because we have a different way of reacting. You
see, those are the difficult things, you see?
PB: It´s almost as if you came upon a strange race where a smile didn´t mean what it does
to us. In fact, a smile doesn´t always mean the same, does it?
BL: Of course not.
PB: Tell me about the big break when you played in Longstreet.
BL: Ah, that´s it.
PB: I must tell our audience that Bruce Lee had a bit part, or a supporting role, in the
Longstreet series and this had an enormous effect on the audience. What was it?
BL: Well, you see, the title of that particular episode of Longstreet is called The Way of the
Intercepting Fist. Now, I think the successful ingredient in it was because I was being
Bruce Lee.
PB: Yourself.
BL: Myself, right. And did that part....just expressed myself, like I say, honestly expressed
myself at that time. Because of that, I got favourable mention, like in the New York
Times, which said, like: The Chinaman, who incidentally came off quite convincingly
enough to earn himself a television series, and so on, and so on, and so forth.
PB: Can you remember the lines by Stirling Silliphant, the key lines?
BL: He´s one of my students, you know that?
PB: Was he, too?
BL: Yes. (laughs)
PB: Everybody´s your student! But there were some lines that expressed your philosophy, I
don´t know if you´d remember them right now.
BL: Oh, I remember them!
PB: Let´s hear! You were talking to Longstreet, who was played by James Franciscus.
BL: I said: Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless -- like water. Now, you put water into a
cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it in a
teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
Like that, you see?
PB: I see, I get the idea, I get the power behind it. So, now, two things have happened: First,
there´s a pretty good chance that you´ll get a TV series in the States called The Warrior?
(Kung Fu). Isn´t it in which you use the martial arts in a Western setting?
BL: Well, that was the original idea. Now, Paramount....you know, I did Longstreet for
Paramount, and Paramount wants me to be in a television series. On the other hand,
Warner Brothers wants me to be in another one. But both of them, I think, they want me
to be in a modernized type of a thing. And they think that Western idea is out,
whereas I want....
PB: You wanted the Western, eh?
BL: Because, you see, I mean, how else can you justify all these punching and kicking and
violence, except in that period of the West? I mean, nowadays, I mean, you don´t go
around on the street kicking people or punching people, because if you do....-- bang!
That´s it. I mean, I don´t care how good you are, you know?
PB: But this is true also of the Chinese dramas, which are mainly costume dramas. They´re
all full of blood and gore over here in Hong Kong.
BL: Oh, you mean here? Yeah, well, unfortunately. You see, I hope that the picture I´m in
would either explain why the violence was done. Whether right or wrong or whatnot. But
unfortunately, the pictures, most of them here, are done mainly just for the sake of
violence, you know what I mean? Like, you know, fighting for thirty minutes, getting
stabbed fifty times.... (microphone falls off)
PB: Let me give you your microphone back....
BL: (I´m a martial artist....)
PB: I´m fascinated that you came back to Hong Kong on the verge of success in Hollywood --
and full of it -- and suddenly, on the strength of one picture, you become a superstar.
Everybody knows you, you have to change your phone number, you get mobbed in the
streets. Now, what are you going to do? Are you going to be able to live in both worlds?
Are you going to be a superstar here, or one in the States, or both?
BL: Well, let me say this: First of all, the word superstar really turns me off, and I´ll tell you
why. Because the word star, man, is an illusion; it´s something what the public calls you.
You should look upon oneself as an actor, man. I mean, you would be very pleased if
somebody says, Hey, man, you are a super actor! It is much better than superstar.
PB: Yes, but you´ve got to admit that you are a superstar, if you´re gonna give me the truth!
BL: I am now honestly saying this, o.k.?: Yes, I have been very successful, o.k., but, I mean, I
do not look upon myself as a star. I really don´t, I mean, believe me, man, when I say it!
I mean, I´m not saying it because....
PB: So, what are you gonna do? Let´s get back to the question: are you going to go to stay in
Hong Kong and be famous, or are you gonna go to the United States and be famous, or
are you gonna try and eat your cake and have it, too?
BL: I am gonna do both, because, you see, I have already made up my mind that in the
United States, I think, something about the Oriental, I mean the true Oriental, should be
shown.
PB: Hollywood sure as heck hasn´t!
BL: You better believe it, man. I mean, it´s always that pigtail and bouncing around
chop-chop, you know? With the eyes slanted and all that. And I think that´s very, very
out of date.
PB: Is it true that you, in the first job you had, was being cast as Charlie Chan´s Number
One Son?
BL: Yeah, Number One Son. (laughs)
PB: But they never made the movie?
BL: No. They were gonna make it into a, like, new Chinese James Bond type of a thing:
Now that old man Chan is dead -- Charlie is dead -- and his son is carrying on.
PB: But they didn´t do that.
BL: No. Batman came along, you see, and then everything started to be going into that kind of
thing.
PB: Like The Green Hornet, which you´re in?
BL: Right. By the way, I did a really terrible job in there, I have to say.
PB: Really? You didn´t like yourself in The Green Hornet? I didn´t see it.
BL: Oh, no.
PB: Let me ask you, however, about the problems that you face as a Chinese hero in an
American series. Have people come up in the industry and said: Well, we don´t know
how the audience is gonna take a non-American?
BL: Well, such question has been raised. In fact, it is being discussed, and that is why
The Warrior is probably not gonna be on, you see. Because, unfortunately, such thing
does exist in this world, you see. Like, I don´t know, in certain part of the country, right?
Where, like, they think that business-wise it´s a risk. And I don´t blame them, and I
don´t blame them. I mean, in the same way it´s like in Hong Kong: if a foreigner came
and became a star, if I were the man with the money, I probably would have my own
worry of whether or not the acceptance would be there. But that´s all right. Because if
you honestly express yourself, it doesn´t matter, you see, because you gonna do it!
PB: How about the other side of the coin? Is it possible that you´re pretty hip and fairly
Americanized? Are you too Western for Oriental audiences? What do you think?
BL: Yo, man,....how? I have been criticized for that.
PB: You have?
BL: Oh, definitely. Well, let me say this: When I do the Chinese films, I´ll try my best not to
be as American as I have been adjust to for the last twelve years in the States. But when
I go back to the States, it seems to be the other way around, you know what I mean?
PB: You´re too exotic, eh?
BL: Yeah, man. I mean, they´re trying to get me to do things that are really for the sake of
being exotic, you understand what I´m trying to say?
PB: Oh, sure. When you live in both worlds, it brings its problems as well as its advantages.
And you´ve got both.
Time to go to a commercial. We´ll be back in a moment -- with Bruce Lee!
(Commercial break)
PB: Let me ask you whether the change in attitude on the part of the Nixon administration
toward China has helped your chances of starring in an American TV series?
BL: (laughs) Well, first of all, this happened before that. But I do think that things of Chinese
will be quite interesting for the next few years. I mean, not that I´m politically inclined
toward anything, you understand what I´m trying to say?
PB: I understand that, but I was just wondering.
BL: I mean, once the opening of China (happens), that will bring more understanding, more
things that are, hey, like different, you know? And maybe in the contrast of comparison
some new thing might grow. So, therefore, I mean, it´s a very rich period to be in.
I mean, like if I were born, let´s say, fourty years ago, if I had a thought in my mind,
I said, Boy, I´m gonna star in a movie or star in a television series in America -- well,
that might be a vague dream. But I think, right now,....maybe, man.
PB: Do you still think of yourself as Chinese, or do you ever think of yourself as
North American?
BL: You know what I want to think of myself? As a human being. Because, I mean, and I
don´t wanna sound like As Confucius says, but under the sky, under the heaven, man,
there is but one family. It just so happens, man, that people are different.
PB: O.k., we gotta go. Thank you, Bruce Lee for coming here, thank you for watching!
BL: Thank you, Pierre!
credit goes to Gin Lai also for the Bruce Lee Dan Lee interview...sorry !!
