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#15053074
A *god* (minuscule G) is an immortal sapient being who is still finite at any given time. Whereas *God* (majuscule G) is the infinite sapient being.

As physicist and mathematician Prof. Frank J. Tipler noted, "Any cosmology with unlimited progress will end in God." (See Anthony Liversidge, interview of Frank Tipler, "A Physicist Proposes a Theory of Eternal Life that Yields God", Omni, Vol. 17, No. 1 [Oct. 1994], pp. 89 ff. [8 pp.].) This means that, e.g., any form of immortality necessarily entails the existence of the capital-G God, in the sense of an omniscient, omnipotent and personal being with infinite computational resources. This is mathematically unavoidable, for the reason that any finite state will eventually undergo the Eternal Return per the Quantum Recurrence Theorem. This is very easy to see by considering the simple example of two bits, which have only four possible states (i.e., 2^2): hence, once these four states have been exhausted, states will have to recur. What that means is that any finite state can only have a finite number of experiences (i.e., different states), because any finite state will eventually start to repeat.

Thus, immortality is logically inseparable from the existence of the capital-G God, since mathematically, immortality requires the existence of either an infinite computational state or a finite state which diverges to an infinite computational state (i.e., diverging to literal Godhead in all its fullness), thus allowing for states to never repeat and hence an infinite number of experiences.

Consequently, transhumanism--if the goal by that position is immortality--is inherently theistic, not only in a lowercase-G god sense, but also in the capital-G God sense.

Interestingly, this also means that the existence of biological evolution, far from demonstrating that God is unnecessary, is in fact a logical proof of God's existence *unless* one posits the additional postulate that there is a limit to evolution. Yet there is no logical limit to evolution other than infinite complexity; and there exists no empirical evidence that evolution is finitely-bounded. Thus, to believe that evolution has a finite cut-off would be to hold a belief without evidence, and thus it would be an irrational belief.

The concept of man being gods and becoming ever-more Godlike is simply traditional Christianity, going all the way back to Jesus's teachings (e.g., see John 10:34), that of Paul and the other Epistlers, and that of the Church Fathers. In traditional Christian theology, this is known as apotheosis, theosis or divinization. For many examples of these early teachings, see the article "Divinization (Christian)", Wikipedia, Nov. 4, 2019, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Divinization_(Christian)&oldid=924591789 , https://archive.is/VhJpa . Though this traditional position of Christian theology has been deemphasized for the last millennium.

Indeed, the words "transhuman" and "superhuman" originated in Christian theology. "Transhuman" is a neologism coined by Dante Alighieri in his 1320 work Divine Comedy (Paradiso, Canto I, lines 70-72), referring favorably to a mortal human who became an immortal god by means of eating a special plant. For the Christian theological origin of the term "superhuman", see the Oxford English Dictionary (2nd ed.), the first appearance being by Henry Montagu, 1st Earl of Manchester, in his Al Mondo: Contemplatio Mortis, & Immortalitatis (London, England: Robert Barker, and the Assignes of John Bill, 1636).

Moreover, Prof. Tipler's Omega Point cosmology is a proof (i.e., mathematical theorem) demonstrating that sapient life (in the form of, e.g., immortal superintelligent human-mind computer-uploads and artificial intelligences) is required by the known laws of physics (viz., the Second Law of Thermodynamics, General Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics) to take control over all matter in the universe, for said life to eventually force the collapse of the universe, and for the computational resources of the universe (in terms of both processor speed and memory space) to diverge to infinity as the universe collapses into a final singularity, termed the Omega Point. Said Omega Point cosmology is also an intrinsic component of the Feynman-DeWitt-Weinberg quantum gravity/Standard Model Theory of Everything (TOE) correctly describing and unifying all the forces in physics, of which TOE is itself mathematically forced by the aforesaid known physical laws.

Since the aforementioned known laws of physics have been confirmed by every experiment to date, the only way to avoid Prof. Tipler's Omega Point Theorem is to reject empirical science. As Prof. Stephen Hawking wrote, "one cannot really argue with a mathematical theorem." (From p. 67 of Stephen Hawking, The Illustrated A Brief History of Time [New York, NY: Bantam Books, 1996; 1st ed., 1988].)

Prof. Tipler's Omega Point cosmology has been extensively peer-reviewed and published in a number of the world's leading physics and science journals, such as Reports on Progress in Physics (the leading journal of the Institute of Physics, Britain's main professional organization for physicists), Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society (one of the world's leading astrophysics journals), the International Journal of Theoretical Physics (a journal that Nobel Prize in Physics winner Richard Feynman also published in), and Physics Letters, among other journals.

Prof. Tipler's Ph.D. is in the field of Global General Relativity, which is the field created by Profs. Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose during the formulation of their Singularity Theorems in the 1960s. Global General Relativity is General Relativity applied on the scale of the entire universe as a whole, and is the most elite and rarefied field of physics. Tipler is also an expert in quantum field theory (i.e., Quantum Mechanics combined with special-relativistic particle physics) and computer theory.

The Omega Point final singularity has all the unique properties (quiddities) claimed for God in the traditional religions. For much more on Prof. Tipler's Omega Point cosmology and the details on how it uniquely conforms to, and precisely matches, the cosmology described in the New Testament, see my following article, which also addresses the societal implications of the Omega Point cosmology:

* James Redford, "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), Sept. 10, 2012 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2011), 186 pp., doi:10.2139/ssrn.1974708, https://archive.org/download/ThePhysicsOfGodAndTheQuantumGravityTheoryOfEverything/Redford-Physics-of-God.pdf , https://purl.org/redford/physics-of-god , https://webcitation.org/74HMsJGbP .

Additionally, in the below resource are different sections which contain some helpful notes and commentary by me pertaining to multimedia wherein Prof. Tipler explains the Omega Point cosmology and the Feynman-DeWitt-Weinberg quantum gravity/Standard Model TOE.

* James Redford, "Video of Profs. Frank Tipler and Lawrence Krauss's Debate at Caltech: Can Physics Prove God and Christianity?", Apr. 18, 2019, https://pastebin.com/6bZDc7rB , https://archive.is/uHEyL , https://megalodon.jp/2019-0423-0435-52/pastebin.com/6bZDc7rB .
#15078276
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#15088313
late wrote:If you see a deity, tell him I've got a bone to pick with him.


Don't worry. The gods will conduct a very precise and thorough interrogation of you after they eat your brain.

Which is to say, after they autotrophically convert all matter--including all flesh--via rapidly-multiplying nanobots into far more intelligent hardware.

Although this is a future event, so you will have to wait.

Technology is advancing at an exponential rate. Once Artificial General Intelligence is obtained, convergence to superintelligence will be extremely rapid. Once superintelligence is obtained, then it will quickly converge to fast-spreading superintelligent computronium: the densest configuration of computational complexity which matter will allow. Noetic lightning of searing, mortally-incomprehensible pleasure will spread like wildfire across the entire universe. The universe will have its light-switch turned to the "on" position, as all matter becomes deliberately transformed into said computronium.

The leading technologists place this epoch circa 2045, although it can come much quicker, particularly given the incredible recent advancements in machine-learning Artificial Intelligence via artificial neural networks. Said epoch is often termed the Singularity, or the Technological Singularity, and the field of interest pertaining to it is most commonly called transhumanism.

* * * * *

The below is an excellent lecture by neuroscientist Dr. Sam Harris, one of the main leaders of the New Atheist movement, at a June 2016 TED (Technology, Entertainment, Design) conference.

* "Can we build AI without losing control over it? | Sam Harris", TED ( youtube.com/user/TEDtalksDirector ), Oct. 19, 2016,

Mirror: https://www.ted.com/talks/sam_harris_can_we_build_ai_without_losing_control_over_it

As Dr. Harris points out, unless there is something literally magic about the operations of our brains, then it is a purely physical process that can be replicated via advanced-enough technology. Harris further points out that given any rate of progress, it is inevitable that superintelligent godlike machines will one day be constructed. So Harris believes in the existence of gods, it's just that he knows--as do I--that they exist in the future; and the not-so-distant future, at that. Therefore we come to the ironic insight that materialistic atheism, consistently applied, unavoidably results in theism. Consistent scientific atheism turns out to be theism.
#15088424
James Redford wrote:
Technology is advancing at an exponential rate. Once Artificial General Intelligence is obtained, convergence to superintelligence will be extremely rapid. Once superintelligence is obtained, then it will quickly converge to fast-spreading superintelligent computronium: the densest configuration of computational complexity which matter will allow. Noetic lightning of searing, mortally-incomprehensible pleasure will spread like wildfire across the entire universe. The universe will have its light-switch turned to the "on" position, as all matter becomes deliberately transformed into said computronium.

The leading technologists place this epoch circa 2045, although it can come much quicker, particularly given the incredible recent advancements in machine-learning Artificial Intelligence via artificial neural networks. Said epoch is often termed the Singularity, or the Technological Singularity, and the field of interest pertaining to it is most commonly called transhumanism.


So Harris believes in the existence of gods, it's just that he knows--as do I--that they exist in the future; and the not-so-distant future, at that. Therefore we come to the ironic insight that materialistic atheism, consistently applied, unavoidably results in theism. Consistent scientific atheism turns out to be theism.



I wasn't expecting science fiction.

Computronium... That sounds like the element the Borg worship in Star Trek.

"leading technologists place this epoch circa 2045"... Now that is a new one. Do you have more than one?

Your line of 'reasoning' leads to a god. What you would actually get is a smart computer. It wouldn't become a spirit in the sky, and it would still have to play within the limits of the physical world.

But..ignoring the wishful thinking, I love scifi.

And for the record, at some point I think we will build AI. I was a kid in the 60s, people thought it wasn't that far away. But it's been a half a century, and if anything, full AI seems further away now than it did then.

I used to have wonderful arguments with Victor Khomenko about AI. I mention him because he's one of the smartest guys I ever had the pleasure of arguing with. Don't get me wrong, I disagreed with him constantly. But my respect for him is boundless.

Anyway, he didn't think we would ever develop AI. He wouldn't admit it, but his thinking allowed for the evolution of AI as an emergent property. I find the idea intriguing.
#15088470
By definition a deity should be something not bound by the laws of this Universe (the deity can and probably do abide by the laws. Being bound by it is something else). Anything created in this Universe and bound by its laws, no matter how powerful, is not a deity.
#15088617
late wrote:I wasn't expecting science fiction.

Computronium... That sounds like the element the Borg worship in Star Trek.

"leading technologists place this epoch circa 2045"... Now that is a new one. Do you have more than one?

Your line of 'reasoning' leads to a god. What you would actually get is a smart computer. It wouldn't become a spirit in the sky, and it would still have to play within the limits of the physical world.

But..ignoring the wishful thinking, I love scifi.

And for the record, at some point I think we will build AI. I was a kid in the 60s, people thought it wasn't that far away. But it's been a half a century, and if anything, full AI seems further away now than it did then.

I used to have wonderful arguments with Victor Khomenko about AI. I mention him because he's one of the smartest guys I ever had the pleasure of arguing with. Don't get me wrong, I disagreed with him constantly. But my respect for him is boundless.

Anyway, he didn't think we would ever develop AI. He wouldn't admit it, but his thinking allowed for the evolution of AI as an emergent property. I find the idea intriguing.


Patrickov wrote:By definition a deity should be something not bound by the laws of this Universe (the deity can and probably do abide by the laws. Being bound by it is something else). Anything created in this Universe and bound by its laws, no matter how powerful, is not a deity.


I see that you have reading-comprehension problems. I already gave the actual definitions on this in the first sentence of the originating post of this thread. Viz.:

""
A *god* (minuscule G) is an immortal sapient being who is still finite at any given time. Whereas *God* (majuscule G) is the infinite sapient being.
""

Further, the only thing that exists is Mind, i.e., Spirit. All that exists is simply information and nothing else. In physics, the upper bound on the number of bits required to perfectly emulate any finite physical system, called the Bekenstein Bound, is given as C*E/ln(2), where C is the circumference of a sphere that circumscribes the physical system and E is the total mass-energy of the system, both in Planck units, and ln(2) is the natural logarithm of 2.

And God has been proven to exist based upon the most reserved view of the known laws of physics. For much more on that, see my below article, which details physicist and mathematician Prof. Frank J. Tipler's Omega Point cosmology and the Feynman-DeWitt-Weinberg quantum gravity/Standard Model Theory of Everything (TOE) correctly describing and unifying all the forces in physics. The Omega Point cosmology demonstrates that the known laws of physics (viz., the Second Law of Thermodynamics, General Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics) mathematically require that the universe end in the Omega Point: the final cosmological singularity and state of infinite informational capacity having all the unique properties (quiddities) traditionally claimed for God, and of which is a different aspect of the Big Bang initial singularity, i.e., the first cause.

Since the aforementioned known laws of physics have been confirmed by every experiment to date, the only way to avoid Prof. Tipler's Omega Point Theorem is to reject empirical science. As Prof. Stephen Hawking wrote, "one cannot really argue with a mathematical theorem." (From p. 67 of Stephen Hawking, The Illustrated A Brief History of Time [New York, NY: Bantam Books, 1996; 1st ed., 1988].)

Prof. Tipler's Omega Point cosmology has been extensively peer-reviewed and published in a number of the world's leading physics and science journals, such as Reports on Progress in Physics (the leading journal of the Institute of Physics, Britain's main professional organization for physicists), Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society (one of the world's leading astrophysics journals), the International Journal of Theoretical Physics (a journal that Nobel Prize in Physics winner Richard Feynman also published in), and Physics Letters, among other journals.

Prof. Tipler's Ph.D. is in the field of Global General Relativity, which is the field created by Profs. Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose during the formulation of their Singularity Theorems in the 1960s. Global General Relativity is General Relativity applied on the scale of the entire universe as a whole, and is the most elite and rarefied field of physics. Tipler is also an expert in quantum field theory (i.e., Quantum Mechanics combined with special-relativistic particle physics) and computer theory.

The Omega Point final singularity has all the unique properties (quiddities) claimed for God in the traditional religions. For much more on Prof. Tipler's Omega Point cosmology and the details on how it uniquely conforms to, and precisely matches, the cosmology described in the New Testament, see my following article, which also addresses the societal implications of the Omega Point cosmology:

* James Redford, "The Physics of God and the Quantum Gravity Theory of Everything", Social Science Research Network (SSRN), Sept. 10, 2012 (orig. pub. Dec. 19, 2011), 186 pp., doi:10.2139/ssrn.1974708, https://archive.org/download/ThePhysics ... of-God.pdf , https://purl.org/redford/physics-of-god , https://webcitation.org/74HMsJGbP .

Additionally, in the below resource are different sections which contain some helpful notes and commentary by me pertaining to multimedia wherein Prof. Tipler explains the Omega Point cosmology and the Feynman-DeWitt-Weinberg quantum gravity/Standard Model TOE.

* James Redford, "Video of Profs. Frank Tipler and Lawrence Krauss's Debate at Caltech: Can Physics Prove God and Christianity?", Apr. 18, 2019, https://pastebin.com/6bZDc7rB , https://archive.is/uHEyL , https://megalodon.jp/2019-0423-0435-52/ ... m/6bZDc7rB .
#15088619
Ter wrote:As long as they don't use the anal probe, it's OK, let them come.


The aliens are quite real. Anything one can interact with is real and exists--in some form or another. The interesting question centers around what is their actual ontological nature, i.e., in what form do they actually exist.

The veridical answer to that question is that the aliens (and their precursor edition, the demons) are particular naturally-evolved parts of our own mind, i.e., they are particular subsets of our own consciousness: mostly the aliens/demons/etc. exist in our subconscious, but the highest levels of the elite occult societies have figured out over the ages various mental techniques to bring the aliens to the fore, to the conscious level. These aliens are the gods of old, the ones that required human sacrifice.

For much more on what is going on with the aliens/demons/spirit-guides/etc., see the following article:

* James Redford, "Societal Sadomasochism", Christian Forums, Apr. 19, 2019, https://archive.is/JPojL , https://megalodon.jp/2020-0325-0427-34/ ... n.450.html , https://web.archive.org/web/20200324192 ... n.450.html .

On the more literal level of extraterrestrial life, it is likely that very simple forms of life exist throughout the universe. Yet the ancient alien hypothesis along with the idea of current intelligent extraterrestrial visitations has been pushed hard by certain sectors of the corporate media, and it is low-grade B-movie science-fiction schlock. A species powerful enough to cross stars--let alone galaxies--wouldn't come to Earth as humanoid creatures in ponderous starships, but rather would use extreme nanotechnology. If they were malicious and wanted to seize the Earth, they would fall to the ground as microscopic dust, infect our craniums, and we'd all be brain-dead before we hit the ground. It would be lights-out before any human even knew that anything had occurred.

Which is to say, if a species powerful and intelligent enough to cross stars were to land on Earth, where they would land is quite literally inside everyone's skulls.
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