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Post by Draven on Dec 13, 2015 at 1:24am
Howdy folks! First, the disclaimer: I don't like back scabbards. They have a lot of disadvantages, let's face it - you can't really draw and cut or block, they're generally a pain to retrieve your sword and their historicity is thin at absolute best. While they are a common feature of movies and video games, they never seem to address the biomechanical problem - that many swords are too long to effectively draw from the back. In Skyrim, the two-handers are back-carried and the character simply grabs it and pulls it round, with seemingly nothing holding it in place. In King Arthur (the one with Clive Owens) one character has two relatively short swords on his back but you only ever see him doing some flourishy thing as they are removed. In general, back scabbards just suck. If I recall right, Conan actually had his sword on a back-scabbard that he would drop to his waist before drawing. Probably the most practical movie-vision of back scabbards I've seen, if I'm remembering it right. Anyway, regardless of this, the back scabbard isn't going anywhere. It has been firmly established as the 'cool' way to carry a sword (and the only way to carry a really big sword). With that in mind, I found it interesting that in the Shadow of Mordor video game, they had a different take on it:  The scabbard borrows a bit from the 'claymore' back scabbards in that only the tip is fully encapsulated. This, of course, allows you to draw it without pulling the blade through the full scabbard. Unlike the claymore scabbards, however, it appears to be fully rigid and covers the edge all the way to the hilt. The taper of the blade allows it to be removed after freeing the tip. Is it as secure as a conventional scabbard? Probably not. It certainly doesn't protect the blade as well. Nonetheless, I thought it was cool to see a reimagining of a somewhat tired idea. They even animated sheathing and unsheathing the sword, which is nice. Anyway, I'm curious if anyone is aware of one being made in this style - I'm thinking about making one myself, as a proof of concept as much as anything. |
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Dec 13, 2015 at 2:50am
It's not quite as elaborate, but there is this one (image below for those who don't want to click the link): I've used it in discussion over the last couple of years as an example of how a back scabbard could work, because it looks a lot sturdier than those cheap 'claymore' scabbards you see just about everywhere on the net, looks like it would hold the sword fairly securely with those hooks while allowing an unencumbered draw (most of those 'claymore' scabbards have a snap that you'd have to fiddle with and are often cheaply made and near impossible to undo with one hand, let alone without looking), and it negates the usual problems of wearing a sword on the back. That said, I'd be interested in seeing how a more rigid, all wood example would perform; I think it would make resheathing a bit easier, since the relatively soft leather of the above example wouldn't necessarily retain its shape unless the opening had been stiffened (which I doubt for an inexpensive production piece). |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 13, 2015 at 2:59am
Here’s one that I made of drawing from the back. It is actually the second video as someone said that the first one was a fake. This was to prove him wrong.
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Post by Draven on Dec 13, 2015 at 4:13am
Vincent, that's actually the sort of claymore scabbard I was referring to, thanks for posting a picture - I think they probably work OK, though as you note the lack of rigidity could be an issue. It looks as though the baldric might tend to rotate around the body when the sword's not in it, preventing resheathing without someone's assistance. I have seen the other claymore back scabbards you mention as well, requiring a tie/snaps/buckle/whatever - maybe an option for transporting a sword but not for using it IMO. The hooks are somewhat inelegant I think, but not necessarily impractical as long as you had an appreciation of your limitations - I imagine that the sword is held in place with gravity, rather than any real amount of friction.
pgandy, thanks for sharing. I don't dispute that drawing from a conventional scabbard on the back is possible, just that it's inconvenient in most cases. I do think a Katana would be a better candidate for this than most swords, though - long handle with a relatively short blade (compared to Euro two handers and hand-and-a-half sword at least) is probably exactly what you need to make it work reasonably well. As a matter of curiosity, have you tried this with something like an odachi?
I think the nice thing about the Shadow of Mordor scabbard isn't so much that it does something that other scabbards can't, but rather that it lends itself to some economy of motion - less movement to bring your weapon to bear is, theoretically at least, better. Naturally though, the very notion of a back scabbard throws some amount of practicality to the wind - I guess it's a matter of tradeoffs. If you're doing more walking/moving/climbing/whatevering than you are fighting, it might be worthwhile - or if you have a very large sword that you would otherwise have to carry in your hands.
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Post by bigpete on Dec 13, 2015 at 4:14am
Personally I've never had a problem drawing a shorter blade out of a back sheath,probably because I've had lots of practice with a back quiver. I really do like both the version you and Vincent are showing
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Post by randomnobody on Dec 13, 2015 at 5:06am
I've experimented several times with various back carries, and found that 28 inches is pretty much my limit. That leaves plenty of room for katana, but not many Euros, really. Just for giggles, I just tried my Hanwei shashka. 31.5" blade. Shortest thing I have that's not a katana, but still qualifies as a full-sized sword. I found that if I kept the scabbard low enough, I could hook a finger under the pommel to start the draw, but had to adjust my grip toward the blade to complete the draw, and was still left with an inch or so of blade dragging against the scabbard before it was out. Not pleasant, and hardly effective.
Of course, the biggest problem with back carry (that is, without specialized suspension systems) is not getting the sword into play...but putting it back when you're done. pgandy's system looks like a valid counterpoint to this, with how easily he can slip it off and back on again, but anything more cumbersome (such as these "claymore" systems) would pose their own...inconveniences. Depending on how flexible they are, especially.
I also wonder how much curvature plays into the draw. Being able to follow the rotation of the shoulder seems like it would facilitate a back draw, whereas having to pull in a straight line would be quite unnatural beyond short lengths. I just tried a 23" blade and found it quite awkward. Putting it back wasn't much of an issue, though, owed no doubt to the wide opening at the scabbard throat. Much easier to take the "funnel" approach of just sticking the small part into the big hole and letting gravity find the right path...
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Post by Draven on Dec 13, 2015 at 6:25am
bigpete, a back quiver probably would be appropriate practice!
randomnobody, I'm pretty much in the same boat - I'm not a small guy either, I'm 6'4", but back scabbards just haven't worked out for me. Even drawing a sword with a 25-26" blade, while I can do it, is awkward and leaves me feeling rather vulnerable. Ease of sheathing is one of the reasons I want to try the SoM style scabbard - I feel that with the rigidity and having the flat back of the scabbard to index the sword against, it might be easier to do one-handed than a regular back scabbard. I'm sure blade curvature would be a big help - I'm not sure how much the curvature of the katana would effect it, but with something very curved like some talwars and shamshirs, you could possibly have the hilt behind your head and a fairly even arc to full draw while maintaining a good grip. Of course, one-handed sheathing of a sword with the scabbard directly behind your head could be interesting...
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Post by Svadilfari on Dec 13, 2015 at 7:01am
I had one idea ( admittedly I've never tried it) for a back carry and draw system. ( no way would I call it a scabbard ) . Basicly, it's just a baldric like strap, with 2 large rings loosely fitted..one at shoulder height, the other at the lower back. The sword rests in these rings., when you draw,(with LEFT hand) you first lift up..until the sword tip clears the first ring..then you pivot the sword hand down and forward, across the body until sword clears the top ring. You then add your right had to the hilt. The rings need to be fairly large..diameter about double the blade width..and I suspect over time the rings would have a blunting effect on the swords edges ' Historical ?...def not. Practical....possibly...any thoughts ? :)
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Post by Draven on Dec 13, 2015 at 7:05am
Svadilfari, I've thought about the idea of pivoting the sword forward to aid in the draw (though I haven't thought about the idea of starting with the left hand - makes sense, since the left hand is near the pommel!) but I think I'd slash my neck open!
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Post by Croccifixio on Dec 13, 2015 at 7:25am
Amusingly enough, this issue was "solved" according to some books by the Maguindanao warriors of Southern Philippines. They have a 2 handed sword called a Kampilan (nasty piece of work) that's probably as long as a katana. The scabbard is just two slabs of wood, tied together by dried banana leaves. For quick combat, instead of drawing the blade from the back, they'd just swing the whole thing, scabbard and all, letting the blade cut through the banana leaves in the first stroke. It's a funny anecdote, for me, because it sounds quite practical. Of course, you'd be adding weight to the blade. And it would have to be sharp enough to quickly cut through the binding. But maybe a thin enough wood? eriksedge.com/weapon_images.php?id=565 |
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Dec 13, 2015 at 9:16am
Really, the easiest way to carry a sword on your back is just to dispatch with the scabbard entirely! Weld a ring to the guard of your sword, mount a hook on your back, hang sword off ring, and you're good to go!
In all seriousness, though, it's actually not that difficult to draw almost any length sword from the back once you stop thinking of the sheath as a stationary object; pull the scabbard down as you're drawing the blade (or not and just pull the scabbard down farther) and you can achieve a very tight draw. I was able to draw my heavy cavalry saber's 36" blade without fully extending my arm and I'm just barely 5'9" with average sized arms; I could also do this with my H/T Single Hander, so it's not limited to curved blades. Can't comment on the speed of the draw, unfortunately, as I had to be careful of little things like my ceiling, walls, TV, laptop, the squeaky ceiling fan older than I am... Resheathing wouldn't be much of an issue either, since you could just pull the scabbard around in front.
Now, if you wanted the scabbard fixed in place, I'd suggest sticking to short blades or half-scabbards like shown above.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Dec 13, 2015 at 11:12am
Sorry still don't like the back carry, I would don't lke the idea of tripping on the draw and cutting my own head off. With a double edge sword I would take the chance of cuttting my neck on every draw.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 13, 2015 at 2:21pm
pgandy, thanks for sharing. I don't dispute that drawing from a conventional scabbard on the back is possible, just that it's inconvenient in most cases. I do think a Katana would be a better candidate for this than most swords, though - long handle with a relatively short blade (compared to Euro two handers and hand-and-a-half sword at least) is probably exactly what you need to make it work reasonably well. As a matter of curiosity, have you tried this with something like an odachi? Sorry, I don’t have an odachi. I have no problem with 28” katanas and probably could go an inch maybe two more without problem but 28” is approaching my limit. I like the back carry as my quarters are tight and I continually bump things with the traditional obi carry. Traditionally the katana is removed in the house. The tradition probably started because of that reason. On the back I can move freely, even sit. I am not able to do back draw with my straight bladed bastard sword of 30”. I carry the bastard sword and rapier with a baldric but when doing so they are in my hand much of the time due to the angle they hang bumping things. My arming sword hangs from the belt vertically so no problem there. |
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Post by Draven on Dec 13, 2015 at 5:44pm
Croccifixio, if it works I guess! At least you don't have to worry about resheathing the sword on the back!
Vincent, I agree that it isn't as difficult if you manipulate the scabbard - but IMO one should be able to do at least a moderately smooth draw with one hand. Love the ring/hook idea. I have a vertebra that would hold that hook perfect :D
Fallen, that's probably a responsible answer
pgandy, absolutely, regular sword carry is a real pain indoors. Reminds me of when I was learning to do everything with a rifle in hand.
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Post by redmichael on Dec 13, 2015 at 6:00pm
The back scabbard made for Thorin's sword in The Hobbit had a slot on the edge side for the sword to be pulled free after about the halfway point, if I remember right.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 13, 2015 at 6:19pm
pgandy, absolutely, regular sword carry is a real pain indoors. Reminds me of when I was learning to do everything with a rifle in hand. I find it a bigger pain to take the thing off then back on as I go in and out as I frequently do at times. |
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Post by MOK on Dec 13, 2015 at 7:05pm
It's pretty obvious you CAN make back carry work, for the most part, if you're willing to jump through some additional hoops... but it should be equally obvious that no matter what you do it's simply WORSE in every way than just having the sword at your side like normal. I can think of three scenarios where carrying a sword on your back would be more convenient: climbing, crawling, and moving in a crowd. And even then it's more convenient ONLY as long as you're just carrying it around like luggage and don't actually need to USE it.
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Post by Draven on Dec 13, 2015 at 7:56pm
Redmichael, that's true - I figured it was to account for the leaf-blade shape, but that would be an added bonus. I still cringe when I think of the scene that they find the swords in that movie. Thorin holds the narrow part of the scabbard and half-draws the sword, with the edge running right down his fingers as it pushes them aside.
pgandy - I can understand that, for sure
MOK, I agree for the most part. The pros and cons of conventional scabbards vs back scabbards has been done to death, which is why I stated that I don't particularly like them in the OP - but I thought this was an interesting variant nonetheless, in that it actually attempts to address some of the flaws of back carry.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 13, 2015 at 10:17pm
Amusingly enough, this issue was "solved" according to some books by the Maguindanao warriors of Southern Philippines. They have a 2 handed sword called a Kampilan (nasty piece of work) that's probably as long as a katana. The scabbard is just two slabs of wood, tied together by dried banana leaves. For quick combat, instead of drawing the blade from the back, they'd just swing the whole thing, scabbard and all, letting the blade cut through the banana leaves in the first stroke. I thought making the scabbard with two loose sides, bound near the tip, was just to cope with the throat of the scabbard being narrower than the tip of the blade. So that the two sides can come apart to let the tip in and out of the scabbard throat. The loose construction then allows the wielder to swing without drawing, if needed. But that's a side-effect, rather than the purpose of the design. But were they worn on the back? |
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Post by Croccifixio on Dec 14, 2015 at 2:52am
Amusingly enough, this issue was "solved" according to some books by the Maguindanao warriors of Southern Philippines. They have a 2 handed sword called a Kampilan (nasty piece of work) that's probably as long as a katana. The scabbard is just two slabs of wood, tied together by dried banana leaves. For quick combat, instead of drawing the blade from the back, they'd just swing the whole thing, scabbard and all, letting the blade cut through the banana leaves in the first stroke. I thought making the scabbard with two loose sides, bound near the tip, was just to cope with the throat of the scabbard being narrower than the tip of the blade. So that the two sides can come apart to let the tip in and out of the scabbard throat. The loose construction then allows the wielder to swing without drawing, if needed. But that's a side-effect, rather than the purpose of the design. But were they worn on the back? Supposedly. A couple books say that. Haven't seen a picture of a Kampilan except in the hands of a warrior so I can't really confirm it. |
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