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Meredith Holley's Reviews > The Aeneid of Virgil
The Aeneid of Virgil
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Meredith Holley's review
bookshelves: punching-tour, reviewed, needs-a-sassy-gay-friend-real-bad
Jul 08, 2008
bookshelves: punching-tour, reviewed, needs-a-sassy-gay-friend-real-bad
I’m a huge fan of propaganda, but I think I may not be a fan of fan fic. I was going into this with the hope that it would be fun, extreme, Latin propaganda, but The Aeneid is really more Trojan War fan fic, IMO. It’s the Phantom Menace to The Iliad’s Empire Strikes Back. It is seriously lame. I think Akira Kurosawa could have made a pretty decent movie of it because he likes to have people frenzy. There’s a lot of frenzying here. The dudes are all chest pound, blooooood, and the chicks are all hair pull, frenzy, waaaaaail. And Aeneas is such a dweeb about the name-dropping. Like, “Oh, did I mention that Venus is my mom? Oh, did I tell you how freaking hot I am? Yeah, I was totally there when Odysseus scammed the Cyclops.” Give me a freaking break. Did you scam the Cyclops? No. Get over yourself.
This is what happens when you start a series, and then someone else wants to capitalize on your story. It’s the fifth season of The West Wing or the seventh season of The Gilmore Girls or all the Jane Austen / Jane Eyre sequels and prequels. It just doesn’t work. Find your own story! I’m looking at you, Virgil. Not that I’m against people using storylines that someone else has used. That’s almost inevitable (and, of course, Shakespeare is a good argument for being okay with stealing). But, there is a line. I’m not positive where it is. This story crossed it. And then don’t even get me started about Dante. WHY?! Virgil’s got his guys running into Homer’s guys, and then Dante’s running into Virgil? It’s just so presumptuous. I guess, it’s like, go ahead and steal a really wonderful storyline if you have something to add to it. But don’t think that your SUPER LAME storyline is going to suddenly turn wonderful because you drop a character from a good story into it.
And there are some seriously weird details to this story. For example, Venus is this guy’s mom, but she doesn’t raise him to know not to pull a George Costanza in running away from the Greeks? Dude. It just takes a second to wait for your wife, you loser. I mean, I’m no great fan of Venus to begin with, but that’s just weird. It seems like she would have taken a minute to say, "Don't trample people running away from your enemies." Maybe it never occurred to her he'd be so lame.
And then the business with Dido was just annoying. She’s the queen of all the land, has been through hell, wherein her eeeevil brother killed her seemingly pretty awesome husband, and then when Aeneas says to Dido, “btw, it was great sleeping with you, but I have a lot of heads to chop off for no particular reason, so I should prolly get going,” she goes all Kathy Bates in Misery all of a sudden. Except lamer because she’s wailing and self-mutilating instead of taking it out on him. It’s just awkward to watch. Girl needs a sassy gay friend. And none of these people are as cool as they think they are.
And the rest of the book is basically one long chest pound. I guess there’s the part where he goes to Hades, and lo, he knows folk there. I’m kind of bitter about the whole thing because Juno’s so funny and great in The Iliad and such a loser here. Again, Akira Kurosawa probably could have turned it into a pretty decent movie. I don’t really get the frenzying thing, but Kurosawa seemed to have liked it. And, if you like people to run around, chopping limbs off and then whining and blustering for a while, you might really click with this book. What I’m saying, though, is if you haven’t read The Iliad, that’s where it’s at. I recommend, for best results, reading it in a hammock.
This is what happens when you start a series, and then someone else wants to capitalize on your story. It’s the fifth season of The West Wing or the seventh season of The Gilmore Girls or all the Jane Austen / Jane Eyre sequels and prequels. It just doesn’t work. Find your own story! I’m looking at you, Virgil. Not that I’m against people using storylines that someone else has used. That’s almost inevitable (and, of course, Shakespeare is a good argument for being okay with stealing). But, there is a line. I’m not positive where it is. This story crossed it. And then don’t even get me started about Dante. WHY?! Virgil’s got his guys running into Homer’s guys, and then Dante’s running into Virgil? It’s just so presumptuous. I guess, it’s like, go ahead and steal a really wonderful storyline if you have something to add to it. But don’t think that your SUPER LAME storyline is going to suddenly turn wonderful because you drop a character from a good story into it.
And there are some seriously weird details to this story. For example, Venus is this guy’s mom, but she doesn’t raise him to know not to pull a George Costanza in running away from the Greeks? Dude. It just takes a second to wait for your wife, you loser. I mean, I’m no great fan of Venus to begin with, but that’s just weird. It seems like she would have taken a minute to say, "Don't trample people running away from your enemies." Maybe it never occurred to her he'd be so lame.
And then the business with Dido was just annoying. She’s the queen of all the land, has been through hell, wherein her eeeevil brother killed her seemingly pretty awesome husband, and then when Aeneas says to Dido, “btw, it was great sleeping with you, but I have a lot of heads to chop off for no particular reason, so I should prolly get going,” she goes all Kathy Bates in Misery all of a sudden. Except lamer because she’s wailing and self-mutilating instead of taking it out on him. It’s just awkward to watch. Girl needs a sassy gay friend. And none of these people are as cool as they think they are.
And the rest of the book is basically one long chest pound. I guess there’s the part where he goes to Hades, and lo, he knows folk there. I’m kind of bitter about the whole thing because Juno’s so funny and great in The Iliad and such a loser here. Again, Akira Kurosawa probably could have turned it into a pretty decent movie. I don’t really get the frenzying thing, but Kurosawa seemed to have liked it. And, if you like people to run around, chopping limbs off and then whining and blustering for a while, you might really click with this book. What I’m saying, though, is if you haven’t read The Iliad, that’s where it’s at. I recommend, for best results, reading it in a hammock.
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Reading Progress
July 8, 2008
– Shelved
June 19, 2011
–
Started Reading
June 30, 2011
–
8.96%
"It is very troubling what a problem Aeneas has with Athena! What an asshole."
page
37
July 2, 2011
–
13.8%
"In Book II, Aeneas is more of a George Costanza character than I would have guessed. Lines 985-1005: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuP9YC...."
page
57
July 3, 2011
–
50.61%
""The golden age they tell of was in the time of this king; for he ruled his tribe in tranquil peace. But by degrees an age depraved and duller took its place, with war's insanity and love of gain.""
page
209
July 3, 2011
–
Finished Reading
July 9, 2011
– Shelved as:
punching-tour
July 10, 2011
– Shelved as:
reviewed
January 28, 2013
– Shelved as:
needs-a-sassy-gay-friend-real-bad
Comments Showing 1-50 of 97 (97 new)
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Meredith
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rated it 2 stars
Jun 19, 2011 03:01PM
![Meredith Holley](data:image/svg+xml,<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="25" height="33"><rect fill-opacity="0"/></svg>)
I'm excited. I've never read it before. It's one I got for myself a while back, so if I don't care for it, I might put it down again. I still want to get through the corporations book, but it's so similar to stuff I read all day that it's hard to want to read it when I come home.
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I was going to read a different book that someone gave me a while back and kept checking in with me about. But, when I opened it, I realized the person had inscribed it to me saying I was her dearest friend, and suddenly it seemed like too much pressure, so I chose this instead.
That's usually my experience. I'm allergic to most recommendations because of it.
I'm not such a Zusak fan. Did you try the Book Thief? I couldn't really get into it.
I have much more luck with recommendations from like-minded strangers on this site than with ones from real-life people. My previous boss kept trying to get me to read The Secret, so awkward!
I completely agree. And I feel like other avid readers are much more gracious about differences of opinion than people who I'm friends with, who know I like to read, but are not big readers themselves.
Maybe if one only reads a book once in a while each book takes on greater significance, so it is a bigger deal if someone else doesn't like it?
I think that is probably true.
My feelings exactly. Virgil is a glorified fanfiction writer. And Aeneas is his self-insert mary sue.
Apparently it's highly rated enough to get it to my house, today, over a thousand years later. So weird. I hope Cassy Clare's HP fan fic is just as well-preserved. Just, you know, to pull the same prank on future generations.
Cory wrote: "My feelings exactly. Virgil is a glorified fanfiction writer. And Aeneas is his self-insert mary sue."Totally. Such a loser.
I went back to the review and solved Dido's problem, though!! Sassy gay friend!
Ha!! Someone wrote the script for a Dido sassy-gay-friend video! http://sesqueerpedalian.wordpress.com...
Meredith wrote: "Ha!! Someone wrote the script for a Dido sassy-gay-friend video! http://sesqueerpedalian.wordpress.com..."
OMG! The Internet is so weird.
OMG! The Internet is so weird.
She seriously needs a sassy gay friend, though. That script is right on.
That really was very funny! Kudos. My first reaction was that you were surely going to go to Hell for it, but now that I consider the matter carefully I can't see a compelling reason. I think I just fell for the Dante thing.
If I do, I'll be sure to come back and write a really long, boring story about how I used to hang out with the people there and am glad they're being tortured. Oh wait, maybe I won't do that because it's lame.
Meredith wrote: "She seriously needs a sassy gay friend, though. That script is right on."You can find just about anything on the internet.
We had to read this in HS. In Latin. It was torture. My teacher was in love with Virgil and the entire time, I was bored out of my mind wondering when Virgil would stop going on and on about how awesome and kind Aeneas was. Not even Homer went on like that about Odysseus in the Iliad.
I know, right?! And I'm not a huge fan of the Odyssey, but at least there Odysseus was just like, "We did this and then we did that," and not so braggy. Half the time in the Aeneid, it's Aeneas himself who's going on and on about how awesome he is. As Robert said on Brian's thread, he's an Aene-ass. Speaking of which, it was distracting that his son's name is Ass-can(ius). But, true. They're all asses.
Meredith wrote: "If I do, I'll be sure to come back and write a really long, boring story about how I used to hang out with the people there and am glad they're being tortured. Oh wait, maybe I won't do that because it's lame."Hm, I see you only give two stars to The Divine Comedy as well. You really are a tough grader.
I really don't care for it at all. I did read it in a class that compared Dante and Chaucer, though, so that is the curve on which I base my star ratings. Chaucer is better in every way than Dante. I just think it's inherently lame to be like, I took a tour of hell and all the people I don't like are there. I, admittedly, only read selections of Purgatorio and Paradiso, though. But, enough to know it's not for me.
Meredith wrote: "I just think it's inherently lame to be like, I took a tour of hell and all the people I don't like are there. "What a coincidence, right?
Cory wrote: "Meredith wrote: "I just think it's inherently lame to be like, I took a tour of hell and all the people I don't like are there. "What a coincidence, right?"
Yeah, it's a little too transparent for my taste. I mean, it's funny in that Stewie from Family Guy way, but I don't feel like that's what Dante was going for.
Two things:1) back then, EVERYTHING was fan-fic. Even Homer was fanfic of things we just don't have left in print. (SO MUCH has been lost. Even aside from the burning of Alexandria. There are only two essentially complete Sappho poems, for example.) There were dozens of Oedipuses in play form, and we just happen to be lucky that all indications are the Sophocles one was one of the true greats. In other words, originality seriously wasn't something people were going for in their storylines back then; think of it more like comic books, where everybody's writing Spiderman, but his origin story in the first appearance might have been pretty lame.
2) I hate to admit it, but if you don't know Latin, the Aeneid is pretty hard to enjoy. In Latin, he's one of the most gorgeous poets who ever lived, and he makes the sound of every word wrap around the meanings, speeds up the syllables every time something gets exciting, plays with crazy word order so that someone can be fighting a bad mood but it's the mood wrapped around their name just to show it's in charge. In English, you lose all of that. Tragically.
Yeah, I don't even really care for originality. I still think there is something different between fan fic that just plops the same characters into a lame story and stealing a plotline to make it something beautiful. I guess it's a difficult line to describe, and I'm sure no one's writing a lame story on purpose, so it's kind of impossible to prevent. But, unfortunately, and this may be an unreasonable prejudice, I am differentiating between fan fic as a pejorative term and re-tellings of traditional cultural stories. I think the fan-fic writer is trying to ride the coat-tails of someone famous. I am knocking it without trying it, though, I admit.The language may be amazing in the Latin, and I'll have to trust you on that because I haven't touched the stuff since fourth grade, but the characters suck, IMAO. Does the Latin version make Aeneas a humble guy who noticed when his wife died while he was running away from the Greeks, and did it make him not spend half the book chopping limbs and chest pounding? Did it make Dido a reasonable, interesting woman? I hope so. I'm not criticizing the language, though. I feel fine about the language. There were some pretty parts with the language, even in the English. That doesn't make me like the story any better to me.
Cory wrote: "Trust me. It's not better in Latin."I think I shall do that.
I think the fan-fic writer is trying to ride the coat-tails of someone famous.This is like, the entirety of the culture of the Roman Empire. Total posers ;)
Great review! I am now going for the Iliad instead of the Aeneid whenever I get around to these things. Check!
Oh, the Iliad is SO WONDERFUL!!! I don't want to build it up too much, and maybe it is kind of built up in my head, but I can't wait to re-read it. SO LOVE.Yeah, totally. Romans are like the Christina Aguilera of world domination.
The Iliad is pretty much the bomb, and not only because Hector is in it :)
Yes! Not just because of Hector! Also because of everyone else! But, Hector is not bad. I don't know, though, Athena? So badass. And looking good, too, while she's kicking ass.
I could read the Iliad a million times over this. The only thing I didn't like about it was Achilles and Agamemnon.
Romans are like the Christina Aguilera of world domination.Haha this is my favorite thing said of today. And anything in the Iliad has to be better than that horrid movie Troy, which is my only experience of the story outside of Cliff Notes and Wikipedia.
Cory wrote: "I could read the Iliad a million times over this. The only thing I didn't like about it was Achilles and Agamemnon."I kind of even like them. Well, I don't like them as people, but I like to know about the shit they're pulling. It's been years, though. I'll have to re-read and see if that's actually true.
Kelly wrote: "Romans are like the Christina Aguilera of world domination.Haha this is my favorite thing said of today. And anything in the Iliad has to be better than that horrid movie Troy, which is my only e..."
Oh no. nonononono. Not even similar at all. I mean, I didn't actually watch the movie because I love the book too much, but just the previews are nothing like. Iliad is so domestic squabbles with the gods and how that plays out to total tragedy with humans.
Thanks, Brian! ;)
Cory: We'll have to agree to disagree on bits like "Tantaene anime caelestibus irae"Meredith: See, I think of Vergil as more like a "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead" or "What's Up Tigerlily" than fanfic. More like a straight "this is the background of what was happening the EXACT same time, and I may not be as gripping a storyteller but I'm gonna tell you half your favorite people were DICKS. Why were you rooting against your own country while reading the Iliad anyway?"
Because srsly, Iliad and Odyssey clearly have better characters, and more fun with them (Diomedes going on a rampage and beating up Aphrodite by accident; Achilles manlove), but Aeneid does have the curious power of turning all your favorite characters from the original into dicks INTENTIONALLY; in other words, to point out that the Iliad never shows you what happens to the people who lost the war (e.g.: Diomedes killing practically every one Aeneas ever cared about). It's a weird message for someone propagandizing imperialism, since it STARTS with the part imperialism likes to forget. But it comes back at the very end, with that practically David Lynch ending. Also, for the sake of pointing out originality, Vergil does invent both the Useless Sidekick (Achates) as well as the Obi-Wan Voice (Aeneas' dad). Also, BLEEDING TREES in the Grove of Suicides.
[This may be oversharing, but I swear to god that Book 6 really shows its power when by sheer coincidence you read it in your high school class the day a student has died (someone who had been IN that classroom the year before). Things about death either really ring true or really ring false when you bring the real thing up to them for comparison. ]
All that said, I'm going to completely agree with you for essentially books 3, half of 4 (yeah, Dido is not my favorite either), and 7-12 except for the adorable twinks Nisus&Euryalus (book 8?) and the creepy as hell last few lines of the whole thing). His weirdo retelling of the Odyssey is way better than his lame-o retelling of the Iliad. And considering how slow my Latin is, I'm probably never going to be able to read more than little passages of the thing again. Still, I just wanted to stick up for an old literary friend, warts and all.
I didn't actually watch the movie because I love the book too much, but just the previews are nothing like. Iliad is so domestic squabbles with the gods and how that plays out to total tragedy with humans.Yeah the movie was definitely about a bunch of humans who were a total tragedy in and of themselves. No gods needed. They were pretty, though. Hollywood tells me that makes it all okay. And romance novels. Sad for me that I didn't listen (except for perhaps about Eric Bana because COME ON)- I spent most of the movie wanting to kick Orlando Bloom in the face. Only Peter O'Toole came out of that thing with my respect for him intact.
I will admit: Hector is my favorite. And the scene between him and Andromache at the end of Book 6? Kills me EVERY. TIME.
Meredith wrote: "I really don't care for it at all. I did read it in a class that compared Dante and Chaucer, though, so that is the curve on which I base my star ratings. Chaucer is better in every way than Dante. I just think it's inherently lame to be like, I took a tour of hell and all the people I don't like are there. I, admittedly, only read selections of Purgatorio and Paradiso, though. But, enough to know it's not for me."Well, I also enjoyed Chaucer more, but I think a lot of that is due to being able to read it in Middle English and appreciate the poetry. My mother is Italian and knows Dante well, and she says it's incredible when you read it in the original.
I finally got around to reading the whole of the Divine Comedy in translation, and I thought it was still very good - though it's a rather indirect pleasure, since on top of the translation you spend half your time going through the footnotes. It's more, what would I think of this if I were reading the Italian and knew the cultural references. In the end, though, I could sort of see why my Mom thinks it's so brilliant.
Michael wrote: "But it comes back at the very end, with that practically David Lynch ending."This is so funny because I was going to compare it to how I loathe Blue Velvet, which I'll acknowledge as a really well-made movie. Loathe it. And probably for basically the same reasons I didn't care for this - I want to not know what these people are doing.
Michael wrote: "Aeneid does have the curious power of turning all your favorite characters from the original into dicks INTENTIONALLY; in other words, to point out that the Iliad never shows you what happens to the people who lost the war (e.g.: Diomedes killing practically every one Aeneas ever cared about)."
I would agree that this is what he's trying to do, but I don't agree that he was successful. I think the Iliad had more subtlety along those lines. In this I actually thought, "It's too bad Diomedes missed you, asshole." In the Iliad, I feel like Hector is a very sympathetic character, and I felt really torn about the tragedy of the war on both sides. It's been a while, I'll admit.
I agree with the comparison to R & G, and I feel the same about Shakespeare in Love. I don't really care for them, either.
EDIT: I don't agree about What's Up Tiger Lily, though, because that's not using a set story or characters to drop into another story, but just satirizing voice-overs.
I'm sorry about the person you knew in high school, though. That can be such a chilling experience to read something so unexpectedly relevant.
Joanna wrote: "I will admit: Hector is my favorite. And the scene between him and Andromache at the end of Book 6? Kills me EVERY. TIME."I must re-read!! I don't remember!!!!
Kelly wrote: "They were pretty, though. Hollywood tells me that makes it all okay."
*snaps*
Manny wrote: "Well, I also enjoyed Chaucer more, but I think a lot of that is due to being able to read it in Middle English and appreciate the poetry."Really? I think it is because Chaucer is funny and Dante is lame. I don't see anyone on here saying we're only appreciating the Iliad because somehow the translation works there. I'll agree that translation can affect a lot, especially in poetical works, but I don't think it usually totally breaks a work. A lot of people love Dante in translation. He's just not for me.
We read parts of the Iliad in a World Lit class, and when we discussed Book 6, the professor was nearly moved to tears. The Iliad is just so powerful!When I taught sections of the Iliad, I always had a question on the test about whether Hector or Achilles was more honorable (according to the Greek concept of honor); I always got some really interesting responses.
That's another reason that I love the Iliad; it is so vibrant and powerful that it can grab anyone's attention, even that of the most belligerent, reluctant sophomore reader!
Oh, that's interesting!! What a good question. I will have to tell you what my answer would be when I re-read. I also mix up Achilles in Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida and Achilles in the Iliad, so it's difficult for me to remember if he's as unsympathetic in the Iliad as I picture him being. I didn't read it until after college, and when I did I just felt like it was a travesty that I hadn't read it earlier. All those years of not knowing how great it was! But it's fun to make those discoveries after school. I always love reading classics and finding them really accessible and beautiful.
No, Achilles is pretty much a jerk. You can just reread Book 22 for a refresher; even Homer, who is supposed to be objective, clearly disapproves of Achilles' behavior!
Yeah, I remember him being a major (Aene)ass.
"(Aene)ass"!!!! That's awesome!!!! And I love that you compare The Iliad to Empire Strikes Back :)
I think of Virgil in the same way that I think of Cormac McCarthy. A lot of people like them and I despise them.This quote sums up what I think of their writing: "I Have Tried So Hard To... Right [Write]. -Grover Cleveland, 1908
Pretty prose doesn't cover up major character fails. And I have to say, this --(Aene)ass-- is so amusing to say.
Joanna wrote: ""(Aene)ass"!!!! That's awesome!!!! And I love that you compare The Iliad to Empire Strikes Back :)"hahaha! Thanks!
Cory wrote: "Pretty prose doesn't cover up major character fails. And I have to say, this --(Aene)ass-- is so amusing to say."hahaha! Yep. 100% agreed.
