The Odyssey discussion

I've only read the Odyssey in Albert Cook's translation, but I've been content with Cook's work. Obviously I'm in the minority here. Cook's translation captures one of Homer's most important qualities: a direct, unembellished language.

Question: which translations actually used the Greek forms of the names in the Odyssey? I've been looking for a translation that actually calls the protagonist Odysseus and not the Latinized version of his name Ulysses.

He's "Odysseus" in Robert Fagles' translation. At least give it a try. It's really a masterpiece of translation that lets Homer really be a storyteller again.

I'd be very interested to know the group's thoughts on what makes a 'good' or 'better' translation of these kinds of works.

Hamish wrote: "I'd be very interested to know the group's thoughts on what makes a 'good' or 'better' translation of these kinds of works."

I have read Fagles and Fitzgerald. I expect to read at least one more, but haven't decided which one.

I do enjoy reading the spirited arguments. Check the reviews on amazon for some pretty good one.

I don't read Greek, so I cannot judge for myself. But keeping in mind Virginia Woolf's remark that "it is vain and foolish to talk of knowing Greek," I judge what I am reading, not whether the translation is accurate or authentic. From what I've read, there isn't complete agreement on whether there is an original or what that might be.

Google "Martin West" and "Iliad" for further information on that point.

Hamish wrote: "I'd be very interested to know the group's thoughts on what makes a 'good' or 'better' translation of these kinds of works."

Translating is always a challenge. I'm an amateur Spanish translator and it's amazingly tough to capture the music of a language in translation - and of course, with Homer, there's the challenge of an ancient text from a very different world. And there is no such thing, of course, as an "accurate translation" in the sense that it's always a choice between options that aren't quite perfect. What I love about Fagles' is that when my husband and I read it aloud, it sang. It was real storytelling. After loving it, we got to hear Fagles read it in person - in Greek as well as in English. Quite an experience! We closed our eyes and imagined we were around a BCE campfire listening to an ancient bard. Anyway, I'd recommend just reading 10 pages or so of different translations and see which one "sings" for you, as long as they're done by reputable people. Fagles has won awards for his translation so I think he's a great place to start.

Zoe wrote: "Hamish wrote: "I'd be very interested to know the group's thoughts on what makes a 'good' or 'better' translation of these kinds of works."

Translating is always a challenge. I'm an amateur Spani..."

Thanks for your reply Zoe! I've actually read both the Fagles and Fitzgerald translations - and, although they both have their merits, Fagles' Homeric verse is truly an astonishing act of historical impersonation. It's really great to get your insight as a translator yourself - I wonder if you've ever read this essay by Nabokov, 'The Art of Translation' ? http://www.newrepublic.com/article/11...#

James wrote: "Hamish wrote: "I'd be very interested to know the group's thoughts on what makes a 'good' or 'better' translation of these kinds of works."

I have read Fagles and Fitzgerald. I expect to read at..."

Thanks for the reply James! As I mentioned in my reply to Zoe, I've read both the Fagles and Fitzgerald translations as well, and found them both to have their own charms. Also like you (and Woolf), I've been wise enough to remain foolishly ignorant of Greek, and as such, I also take as the ultimate judge of the quality of a translation my own impressions taken whilst reading. To wit, the Fagles Homer was my favourite - his verse seems nothing short of an act of historical impersonation, but remains shot through with his own contemporary touches. He's done some wonderful work on Ovid's 'The Art of Love' as well, which is well worth a look.

Hamish wrote: " I have read Fagles and Fitzgerald. I exp..."

I had a similar experience. When I read Fitzgerald, I had the feeling I was studying a work of literature. When I read Fagles, I was reading a story.

James wrote: "Hamish wrote: " I have read Fagles and Fitzgerald. I exp..."

I had a similar experience. When I read Fitzgerald, I had the feeling I was studying a work of literature. When I read Fagles, I was..."

Good way to put it, Hamish - though ideally, a work of literature would also read like a story. But I know exactly what you mean!

I loved the faithfulness of the Fagles translation. I have not read any others, so there could be better. Yet I was caught up in reading this.

I have a new one from Barry B. Powell. I am a fan of Fagles and Fitzgerald. I need to check today to see if Robert Graves did a translation and if it's available. I love Robert Graves.

indeed

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I've read I think three different ones, but I really like the one you read most. The verse one is good, the structure seemed to remain in-tact according to most scholar's accounts. But I really like Lawrence's. Have you read the Illiad yet? I liked the Illiad way more. And if you enjoy epic poetry like this, I highly recommend Ovid's Metamorphosis. I recently read that and it was amazing. It's a lot longer, but I think that actually supplements the poem in my opinion. Something like 1500 pages and loved every line of it.

Toutoula wrote: "Being Greek, I read it in ancient greek. Even in modern greek it looses some of its magic, so I feel really lucky I could read and understand the original..."

Yeah, I feel that's probably an issue with any translated work is that it loses just a bit of something that it's origin language could only give it. Especially poetry and novels.

It's actually a widely acknowledged fact that Muslims hold concerning the Qu'ran, that in translation, texts lose at least a bit of something that ONLY the language it was written in could give it. If you've ever looked at a Qu'ran, they almost always have the gorgeous Arabic accompanying the translation. (Seriously, have you ever seen Arabic writing? It's the prettiest thing I've ever seen a human being make.)

That's why I want to learn a bunch of other languages, so that I can re-read some of my favorite books in their original language, to see what I'm missing out on. Including Arabic, because I'm not Muslim, but I feel I owe the respect to it to read it properly at the very least by re-reading it properly.

Of course, that's not the only reason I want to learn other languages, I think they're important just on principal to understand. But It would be really nice to be able to read the book in it's entirety. Out of curiosity, have you read the Odyssey in a non-Greek language? How much is lost from the experience?

I read the Fitzgerald translation. And I thought it was great. I really liked that verse format to the extent I was thinking in that sort of pentameter for a while.

But I haven't read other translations of the Odyssey for comparison.

I read the Fagles translation most recently. I have read it before with a different translation (don't remember which, unfortunately) and found the Fagles one more enjoyable and beautiful, but I also read them several years apart.

Sebastian wrote: "Toutoula wrote: "Being Greek, I read it in ancient greek. Even in modern greek it looses some of its magic, so I feel really lucky I could read and understand the original..."

Yeah, I feel that's ..."

I agree with this. Most languages don't even have words for something that another language does, so it's almost always impossible to create a literal translation word-for-word. I would also love to learn many languages to be able to read original texts.

As my edition of Pope's Iliad says on the dust cover:
Homer's Homer is the best Homer. The next best is Pope's. Everything else is just controversy.

Minerva giving Telemachus courage to approach Nestor:

"Proceed my son, this youthful shame expel.
An honest business never blush to tell.
To learn what fates thy wretched sire detain
We passed the wide immeasurable main.
Meet then the senior, far renowned for sense,
with reverend awe, but decent confidence.
Urge him with truth to frame his fair replies,
And surely he will, for wisdom never lies".
"Oh tell me, muse, oh tell me faithful guide",
the youth with prudent modesty replied,
"How shall I meet, or how accost the sage?
Unskilled in speech, nor yet mature in age.
Awful the approach, and hard the task appears
To question wisely men of riper years".
To which the martial goddess rejoined:
"Search, for some thoughts, thy own suggestive mind,
And others, dictated by heavenly power,
Shall rise spontaneous at the needful hour.
For nought unprosperous shall thy ways attend,
Born with good omens, and with heaven thy friend."

I've read the W H D Rouse prose which is a useful lead-in to a daunting text for those who are more accustomed to novels. However, I've now purchased Stanley Lombardo's translation. You can hear him reading parts on Youtube with Christopher Hitchens present in a debate of the Odessey - a must watch for afictionados

The Classics don at New College Oxford Jane Lightfoot revealed to me that in her view Lattimore is by far the best. She also dismissed Fagles' as travesty. Be that as it may, everyone knows that the best translation of Homer's work is Introduction to Attic Greek by Mastronarde, along with any other volume that explains the Epic/Homeric dialect. You might possibly, in some peculiar way, fancy this a long way but not so. Not so at all.

Benjamin wrote: "I think the literal translations are preferable. Verse translations have to sacrifice accuracy for lyricism. Some of them are brilliant in their own right, but I think accuracy is better with such ..."

Not so sure about literal translations being better. It is the skill and sensitivity of the translator that makes the translation better or worse. There are some recognised classic translations amongst which Latimore and Fagles are almost always ranked. Alexander Pope did a fair job too. They are all "poetic" translations in that they are willing to chose alternative words over literal translations to engender the sound and style of the original.

I think this article gives an excellent description of how different translators approach the task and it is quite clear from the article that literal translations can miss the sound and rhythm of the original because much of the meaning and the context is in the poetry itself and that can often only be re-captured by attempts to recreate the original verse sense.

http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-t...

Final advice is as given above. Get a number of copies and read the same passage in each then chose the one that speaks to you.

Lawrence's version adds the perspective of a middle east expert, traveller, historian , linguist and soldier. Not a bad set of qualifications.

To follow up on the literal or not points about verse translation: I guess sometimes the word the poet chooses has little or no significance at all beyond its sound. I'll illustrate it with some trivial non-greek examples (I'm in this thread because I enjoy the odyssey and thinking about different translations but I don't know greek at all).

A verse in an early 20th century American murder ballad goes:
When they heard that Lewis was dead
All the people dressed in red

Now people there and then did not tend to dress in red when someone had died. So no matter whether there is a contrived explanation for the red colour of their clothes or not, the simple explanation that they dressed in red because it rhymes with dead is, for me, worth bearing in mind. Now if I was to translate this verse into Swedish it could be something like:

När de hörde att Lewis hade dött
Folket klädde sig alla i rött

Which works, because dead and red also rhyme here. But that is luck. And a translator had better consider the possibility that the rhyme is more important than the actual colour.

If we consider another traditional murder ballad:

The first to come down was dressed in red
The second dressed in green
The third to come down was Lord Daniel's wife
As fair as any queen

or in a different version of the ballad, the corresponding verse is:

Down came one all dressed in black
And one came dressed in brown
And down then came Lord Barnard’s wife,
The fairest in all the town

or in a third version of the ballad:

The first of them was clad in green
Another was clad in pall
And then came in lord Barnard’s wife
The fairest of them all

It's clear that the colours have no significance at all other than to rhyme. And any translator had better bear that in mind.

A last example: it is a common opening of traditional Swedish ballads to sing:

Herr Peder han rider söder under ö

A literal translation of this is: Sir Peter he rides south under (the) island. It basically makes no sense. The phrase crops up all over the place, and never in any of these ballads is there any other reference to the south or to islands. For me, the only way to understand this is to read the phrase out loud, and instead of hearing the meaning of "söder under ö", to hear the sound, reminiscent of a horse's hooves beating against the ground.

I hope that gives something to think about anyway. Of course I am not saying that the meaning of words in a poem should always be disregarded in translation.

As a Greek and Latin student, I personally don't think that Homer is very poetic. Sure, his sentences are beautiful, but I think that Fitzgerald is way too poetic, so it doesn't stay very true to Homer's own style. However, I did really love that novel and it is more beautiful than the less poetic versions.

Has anyone read new translation by Emily Wilson? Much is being made of her being first woman to translate it.

Lattimore’s translation is too archaic for my tastes. Fagles is slightly better, however, I accidentally picked up the George Palmer version at Goodwill and immediately understood it. It depends on the type of language and structure you prefer.

Dominic wrote: "I've read the W H D Rouse prose which is a useful lead-in to a daunting text for those who are more accustomed to novels. However, I've now purchased Stanley Lombardo's translation. You can hear hi..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c24qH...
Thank you for that. Pretty wonderful.

I recently read the new translation by Emily Wilson. It's very well done. She even describes Hermes as "mercurial."

Robert wrote: "I recently read the new translation by Emily Wilson. It's very well done. She even describes Hermes as "mercurial.""

Glad to hear it, Robert. I'm just waiting on the pb edition.

FYI: Wilson has really interesting review of Mark Polizotti's Sympathy for the Traitor: A Translation Manifesto in New York Review, May 24 issue. She addresses larger issues of opposing approaches to translation. Worth looking up.

We read Butcher and Lang translation of Odyssey in college (1970’s). I loved it then and now. I have not been able to part with my old paperback (modern Library College Edition,1950,1967)—$0.85!!!—-underlines, margin notes, and all.
This well-worn copy has moved with me from Missouri to Austin, TX, to Minnesota, and on to San Fancisco!
I look forward to embarking on other translations soon, but my heart will always belong to my Butcher and Lang.

Margaret wrote: "We read Butcher and Lang translation of Odyssey in college (1970’s). I loved it then and now. I have not been able to part with my old paperback (modern Library College Edition,1950,1967)—$0.85!!!—..."

Had not heard of these folks. I've read good prose translations of other classics, like Dante's Inferno, but never one of Odyssey. I'll have to try this one. The original ed. of B&L has neat looking illustrations, another plus. Thanks for tip!

Just like the buses.... you wait for one to come for ages then three come at the same time.

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n08/colin-b...

The Odyssey translated by Peter Green
California, 538 pp, £24.00, April, ISBN 978 0 520 29363 2

The Odyssey translated by Emily Wilson
Norton, 592 pp, £30.00, December 2017, ISBN 978 0 393 08905 9

The Odyssey translated by Anthony Verity
Oxford, 384 pp, £7.99, February, ISBN 978 0 19 873647 9

Kevin wrote: "Just like the buses.... you wait for one to come for ages then three come at the same time.

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n08/colin-b...

The Odyssey translated by Peter Green
..."

More leg room for commuter readers!

Peter Green wrote an excellent bio of Alexander the Great, Alexander of Macedon, 356-323 B.C., one of my favorite book re antiquity. He's a fine stylist and storyteller.

Wilson has garnered many strong reviews, and not just for being first woman to translate Odyssey.

Not familiar with Verity, but the name suggests a "truthful" rendition.