Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login
Ask HN: How do you justify taking unpaid vacation as self employed?
35 points by Markoff 8 hours ago | hide | past | web | favorite | 56 comments
I am working from home and my workload steadily picked up over years currently almost reaching my limits working basically full time, some days 08-18 only with few minutes break for lunch.

I always enjoyed working from home for few hours and having much more spare hours than regular employees who have to sit in work no matter, if they have actual work or no.

But since I don't wanna be potentially replaced by competition I haven't taken vacation in years (that was not problem before since I was not that busy and could rest enough every day to have free morning or afternoon) and I don't won't to refuse any projects to miss on money I can't imagine taking vacation, because I'm not gonna lose only vacation expenses, but also similar amount in lost income for every day I would not work.

Oh and I forgot to mention because of my partner company is in China I can't follow even my European holidays (while living in Europe), meaning I worked even on Christmas, yesterday and today and have only few free days during CNY and October golden week (but none of them actually as long as in China since I get anyway more tasks in advance or some Chinese will give tasks to us even during Chinese holidays).

The best case scenario would be if my partner company decreased amount of projects, since I would be perfectly fine even with half money I earn in exchange for saving half of the work hours without me rejecting anything, but that doesn't seem realistic.

So how would you justify taking unpaid vacation with family under such circumstances? As I see it now I will give family vacation, meaning wife and children can enjoy different place (beach) and I will work from hotel room, possibly finding few free hours in early morning or late afternoon and free weekend.






How do I 'justify' taking unpaid vacation?

For me the question is entirely reversed. I have to justify to myself giving up my time for a client or employer. The natural state is for me to fart around, I wasn't put on this planet to commute to a cube.

I do it because it allows me to achieve my goals - things like having fun experiences, donating to charity, helping out family and friends, being a useful human.

If I did it 24/7 then those goals would fade into irrelevance because I'd have no time to pursue any of them.

I had wrote a longer post, but I've edited it, because I think really this is the key take-away. Do you work to live, or live to work?


Useful heuristic: if you can't afford the risk of a vacation and the time to find another gig, you are self enslaved, and not self employed.

For a Christian, the same situation could simply be trusting in Divine Providence and not in ourselves or others for security (which so often fails us anyway). In that case, it would be a virtue.

No, I'm pretty sure that in this case you're just trusting in others for security and trusting that they won't overwork you. Unless you're doing work for the Church, I'd say it might be unwise to conflate your client with God.

Huh? Could you explain with more detail what you mean?

If you are working for a single client and have such micro management that your work is subdivided into tiny tasks and feel that rejecting it would be an issue, then you are not really self employed, you are a remote worker...

Normally the typical advice when someone who is self employed has too much work is for them to raise their rates, but this works much better if you have more than one client since that does mean that you still have some clients to fall back on otherwise...

For your specific situation, I'm not sure what to say, apart from advising you to try to get out of this situation by 1) finding other better paying clients and 2) slowly reducing the tasks you do for your current client to the more value added tasks.


Increase your hourly rate until the demand for hours decreases to the level you prefer.

That works if the OP has many different customers. But the easiest way to raise prices is with new customers.

If OP has only one customer they do not work for themselves, they work for that customer and have a job - regardless of what they like to tell themselves.

That’s about like people who are so proud to be a “business owner” because they bought a franchise and now work 60 hours+ a week and never take time off. They aren’t “running a business”, They bought a job.

Not if they have profit / distributions.

But their “profit” only comes from them working 60+ hours per week to save on labor costs and/or to keep employees from stealing.

The average franchise owner makes less than $70K a year (https://www.moneytalksnews.com/could-franchise-your-ticket-o...).

And that’s after putting a lot of Monet into it.


That's nonsense. I know plenty of 20K / month consultants that work as contractors, one project for one customer, a couple of months later for another. The shortage of qualified people at that level is such that they have the jobs for the picking. They are self employed in every way that matters, to the tax office, their customers and their bookkeepers.

But in those cases they do have multiple customers, serially. That is still regular market dipped into where pricing can be tweaked.

Working as a contractor for a single company for very long periods of time (say 1+ years), is a very different type of relationship, even if the mechanics are similar. I suspect that's the type of relationship that was being referred to.


It's a different relationship, but it is still not the same as being employed. The people here equating the two are either clueless or disingenuous, I'd hope for the former but I fear the latter.

It's easy to piss on those that manage their one person business over multiple years from the comfort of an actual employed situation, and it is equally easy to piss on them from the position of the manager or early hire of a business with a lot of employees and a lot of customers.

But the amount of responsibility that typically lands on the shoulders of these one man operations tends to be disproportional and they deal with those responsibilities in a much better way than many of those large companies. The main reason that they stay in business in the first place is because they tend to be good at what they do, and reputation damage being what it is in that world the first job you fuck up may well be your last.


I'm not sure this logic follows. I generally take on one client at a time, sometimes for many months (even years, on occasion). I've ended gigs that I was unhappy with, and I've stayed on contracts for extended periods of time.

I still make my own hours and have relative freedom to operate how I please, despite only having one client at a time.


Your mother-in-law says you keep erratic hours and job hop a lot.

Your resume says you own and operate a consulting business.


Six of one, half-a-dozen of the other

Sounds like the same thing I do at jobs....

Justifying taking time is easy, doing it is a little harder for a lot of people. But justifying it, if you don't take time for yourself you will implode (fail) and when you do you will lose your client(s) and all your income. It is seriously that simple.

While I know it is that simple to justify, all of us that have been consultants where our money is dependent on our time understand where you are coming from, so you aren't alone in this. Based on your description though it seems like you are scared of your client taking work away, if true, this is a horrible client to have. The best way to solve this issue is to find a new client. I am a little confused though as you also call them a partner company so I am unclear what your relationship is, but either way it sounds unhealthy and you need to change it. Either you need to set new expectations and new boundaries or you need to find a new client and get away from them.

I always set boundaries at the beginning of an engagement, and I would always set the expectation that if a contract was 3 months or longer that a developer would take around 2 weeks of vacation. So even if the dev didn't take time during that contract and did it after or before, the expectation was there so everyone was on the same page. Plus good clients don't want you to burn out because then they lose out on your services too. When you have a client that doesn't respect you and you've allowed them to dominate you it will never end well. You have to set clear boundaries and expectations early on, doing it later is possible but it isn't easy.

Basically, if you don't fix this soon and take a little time, you will fail by burning out which is much harder to overcome at that point, and can take much longer to recover as well. So best to address this now and not wait.


I'm quite sure they would not replace me just for one vacation per year, though personally I would also prefer to work less overal and in that case I'm not so sure they would not find rather someone else, because this job requires extreme consistency in results.

And besides quality I guess one of the main reasons why they stick with me for years (because they sure could find someone cheaper) is very fast response time and basically zero downtime.

All in all I didn't complain about job, I just complained that my workload is more than I would prefer and can't really do much about it. But mostly I was looking for recommendation what would be the best way to take vacation under these circumstances, if I should just take vacation and work during vacation, hoping to find few free hours in morning or afternoon or sacrify completely lost income (though I think that would make me uncomfortable knowing I am doing nothing throwing money I could earn out of window and someone else is earning them possibly building position for himself to replace me).


> I don't won't to refuse any projects to miss on money

> I would be perfectly fine even with half money I earn

Wut? Either you're willing to work more hours and receive more money, or you're willing to work less hours and receive less money. They're literally mutually exclusive.

You can't genuinely want both things.


if I start rejecting projects they will find someone else and I will have nothing to reject in the end, not even that half I would be fine with. it doesn't work that easily that I can just limit how much work I take without repercussions (it already happened in past, but not because of rejecting reason)

and yes, there is also the money reasoning why not to reject something if it's still within my limits, although I rejected rarely some tasks, but it's like <5 out of maybe 200-300 I get per month


> if I start rejecting projects they will find someone else

... Which you're basing on:

> it doesn't work that easily that I can just limit how much work I take without repercussions (it already happened in past, but not because of rejecting reason)

If it's true that they won't accept anything less than 12 hour days with zero down time, then you're better off working elsewhere.


it's not 12 hours day, on bad day (usually monday and friday) is 8-10 hours of actual work, on good days (which are very rare recently) 3-4 hours, but usually I work between 5-7 hours (with some gaps between) plus I have free weekends most of the time and maybe 10 days of Chinese holidays spread over year

If I worked as full time employee here in Europe, I would spend 9-10 hours in work each day including commuting but with lot of spare time just sitting/resting in work plus 5 weeks of paid vacation, but also my salary would be like 20-30% of what I have as self employed working from home, nobody can offer me what I have in this company, so I wanna bank on this while it's available, because I'm sure it won't last forever (though I had this attitude already years ago and I'm still doing it with more work)

my main (if not only) issue is lack of continous vacation, I was just asking in OP how to justify taking it under these circumstances, if you are willing to spend let's say 4000USD on short vacation and another 2-3000USD on lost income, if I didn't work in hotel room. I just can't justify completely stop working even without worrying to be replaced


I've had a few vacations turn into work trips. It's really easy (at least for me) to work a lot in the morning and spend the late afternoon at the beach, park, or museum.

If all you need is a laptop and internet then there's nothing stopping you from an entire month at a vacation destination.


4000 USD is a fairly lavish holiday.

I consider myself fairly well off and that's roughly what I'd spend in two months.


Maybe you can inform them well in advance (say, 2 months in advance) that you will be on vacation so they can plan ahead? If they like you and your works, they certainly have no problem rescheduling stuff so you can take your vacation, no?

Friend, if they expect to be working 12 hour days, 365 a year that's the best thing that could happen. You have talent, you can find other work, work that's not killing your life, your relationships with your wife and children. Get out now.

200-300 tasks is a lot. Do you work only for one company or for a bunch of companies. Can you drop one of the companies and keep all the others?

one company, multiple projects (but basically two main ones and under them subprojects), each has many tasks (some of them smaller doable in minutes, some of them bigger taking hours)

I could drop one project I really don't like, because how unprofessional they are, so I started to get quite bitchy about it and also refused recently task and voiced my objections about their workflow/mismanagement. I would not mind at all if they would assign it to someone else, but honestly this project doesn't take that significant portion of time, maybe hour a day and pays better than the other one per minute, like now I just finished 60USD task in 20mins


If you are accepting / rejecting work in 20 min units of work, you might want to rethink things a bit. The micromanagement level at play here would make any work/life balance out of whack.

Maybe the question to ask is — can I start bidding on work in units of 1-2 week increments? You’d still have multiple smaller tasks in that block. But that would start to give you more flexibility in how to organize you days.


in 95% of my income I'm not paid per hour/time (rarely I have tasks paid per hour, which I usually don't like), but per size of the task, I just use time/money cost for easier understanding after calculation, if I average my income my minimum hourly rate would be between 60-200USD depending on how efficient I am with certain task

and the tasks are assigned by currently 2nd biggest company in their field (over 100bln USD revenue last year), you seriously don't expect me telling them how should their multiple teams manage their tasks and workflow? I'm not doing any bidding, I have my rate and I can decide if I accept or reject task they assign to me (and pretty much all of them go first to me, then to my official backup).

working per hour/time would be worse for me, because I'm much more efficient than other people so some average 1-2 week income would be much lower than what I can get per size. and getting some fixed size for 1-2 weeks would be still pointless because all these smaller tasks have usually deadline within 24hrs, many less than 12hrs. they have vry strict daily deadlines and you can do nothing about it

anyway I was not complaining about my job as most of the commenters picked up, I am happy with with how much I earn for work I do, I would just prefer to have less work, but that's not really an option unless I would subcontract someone working for me, but anyway I would need to check up on their work and it would bring lot of paperwork. if I would start refusing tasks regularly to lower workload they will just find someone who will not refuse, because they need consistent results.

so I was basically asking in my OP how to manage vacation with such schedule/circumstances and how people without fixed monthly income justify taking days off and letting the money go


It may be difficult to switch just now, but for the future consider billing weekly. Obligatory patio11 link: https://training.kalzumeus.com/newsletters/archive/consultin...

This subject probably requires it's own HN post but let me just put this here since it's on my mind.

There is a hierarchy of ways that you can provide value to a client. I call it the TKPV ladder. Each letter represents what you provide in return for compensation.

T stands for time. At this level, your client pays you by the hour, day, week, or even minute. Your value is measured by the time you put in. This is the lowest rung of the ladder. While you have some control over your allocation of time (as opposed to with an actual job) this is not really much different in principle than working at Walmart or Starbucks. You are a wage slave.

The next step up on the ladder is K, which stands for knowledge. If you can promote your relationship with your clients to this rung, your value becomes the knowledge, experience and ability you bring to the table, which is measured by its value to the company, not by the number of minutes you've slaved at a task.

The next rung on the ladder is P, which stands for product. At this stage, you transition from selling knowledge and talent to selling a specific product or service that wraps up the knowledge and talent that you and your team have acquired into something you can sell to a customer, hopefully without too much customization. And then sell to another customer, and so on. If you reach this stage, you have productized your value in such a way that you can produce and sell it at scale.

The final rung in the ladder is V, for vision. At this level, you take your vision for future products and services to people who are in a position to provide you capital and support to expand and scale your reach to its maximum potential.

In my Consulting business, when I deal with clients, I try to keep this hierarchy, TKPV in mind, with the goal of moving up the ladder at every opportunity.


If you only look at life as a balance sheet, you will only experience life that way.

When I contracted, I set my rates and anticipated annual hours to include (1) holidays (2) vacations (3) a bit of sick time (4) un-paid work (like finding new clients). I could always make more by working more, but I didn't want to.

------

It's really no different that a salaried job. I could take "vacation" from a salary job to work on a side-gig, but I don't because that would be exhausting.

Budget for money, budget for time off, take the time off.


I've been on the other side of this managing a team of developers that was a mix of employees and contractors. The contractors would coordinate with the project manager to schedule their vacations.

Obviously, you need to discuss this with your employer (I call them 'employer' because they are your only gig and full-time). I doubt they expect you to never take any time off, so it shouldn't come as a surprise and they should respond rationally if you approach it with no immediate deadline. For example: "sometime in the next few months I'd like to schedule some time off and I want to work with you to ensure minimal disruption to the business." If you are willing and it would be helpful to them, you can offer to check email once a day while on vacation for any urgent blocking issues.

You mentioned being worried about competition usurping your work if you take time off. It's unclear if you're doing work where there are instant drop-in identical replacements to you readily available. Since you're wall-to-wall busy with work it seems that your role is important and you mentioned that you'd take less money for less work, so you're pretty well-paid. I guess I don't understand because roles for which there are instant drop-in identical replacements aren't usually high earning. If what you do is so mission-critical that they'll have to replace you with another contractor if you're unavailable for a scheduled-in-advance week, then it's likely you have job-specific knowledge and skills that can't be easily replaced by a new contractor in a week. Which is why they should be willing to work with you to coordinate your vacation and minimize disruption.


There are alternative employment opportunities out there. You shouldn’t have negotiate for time with your family - this is a form of bullying by your employer.

The OP is self employed.

Not sure if it was intentional but GP reframes the situation -- one would not tolerate that behavior from employer, why tolerate it from one's self?

I've been self-employed for 20 years, and the idea that I would need to justify vacation is honestly a bit foreign. I assume that I'm going to be taking vacations, and if a customer has specific availability needs, then that's just something that needs to be negotiated. If a potential customer would only accept continuous work with no vacation, I imagine I'd pass. It's important to bill at a rate high enough that unpaid vacation is covered, and bench time between gigs is covered. (After all, employers budget for their employees to take vacation, so you should also budget similarly.)

When you bill by the hour, it's natural to start thinking of everything in terms of lost time and money. And I actually think it's reasonable to think about the cost of taking time off, but if this is keeping you from taking vacation and spending time with your family, then you are severely undervaluing your time off. You can think of time off as a sort of cost, but it's a very small cost compared to the value it provides.

I don't have experience with working for customers in different cultures and across international borders, so I'm afraid I don't have any insight there. If I was in that situation, I think it would still come down to negotiating the vacation that I need.

I also don't have much experience with juggling several (>2) projects at once. In my experience, people seldom need just a little software engineering. If someone wants some software engineering, they usually want a LOT of it and don't want to compete for your time with other projects. So I tend to work on one project at a time, take vacations, and when the gig comes to an end, I look forward to taking a few months off to study.

So I suppose if I was in your shoes, I would insist on vacation, and not worry too much if I lost a customer that wanted to burn me out. (I acknowledge that working in the software industry puts me in a rather privileged position where I can be picky.)


This sounds like you only have one customer. That's your problem. If you had six or seven customers, you would have leverage to negotiate with them.

As the situation stands, you would be happy with less money for less time -- that means that you might be in a position to hire an employee to do some of the work for you.


Am in similar situation. Working remote as a contractor, nearly full time. However I do observe my local holidays and take at least a whole unpaid month off per year.

There are two very good reasons for it - one is family and the other is my health. No amount of money can replace not being around my wife and child. The other reason is health (both physical and mental). I am of no use to anyone if I am burned out and half crazy. If your current partner company doesn't understand that - GTFO.


To avoid burnout and still be "able" to work in the future? I agree with the sentiment that "justifying" time off is coming at it from the wrong angle.

Work/life balance is important. We can only go so long before our quality of work begins to suffer, along with our mental health.

Seek out more clients, raise your rates, and sub-contract the more menial/unpleasant parts of what you do, would be the ways I would look at addressing this.


You budget working 46-50 weeks a year and get it in your contract. Most people whom I know who are happy with contracting have multiple clients and assume a certain amount of bench time.

Call it professional development or whatever you need to. Build your rate card around that timeframe. If that’s not acceptable, you need to think about what you want and work towards that.


Sounds like you're being willingly worked to the bone.

As far as I'm concerned, the point where making more money doesn't increase your quality of life but reduces it is where it needs to stop and you look well past it. The point of self employment is not having to justify your life style, including vacations.

If I were you I'd look for a different employer or rework my business and split my time between a number of them.


To avoid burn out. I always take 1 week of vacation per quarter and don't work more than 45 hours per week. As you get older your time is more important than the next dime. You can't take money with you after you depart this life.

Sorry if I am being that explicit but I would consider myself a slave, not a self-employed, if I had to follow that work rythm you just described

Would your clients allow you to subcontract the work out? That way you can keep taking the full load with minimal additional work.

If you can justify taking off 80-128 hours out of 168 per week, surely you can justify taking off 10 out of 365 days in a year.

> I don't won't to refuse any projects to miss on money I can't imagine taking vacation, because I'm not gonna lose only vacation expenses, but also similar amount in lost income for every day I would not work.

Sounds like you are being consumed by greed and fear.


Why not hire someone who can take a bit of your burden?

The purpose of work is to live the best life you can live in pursuit of your values. Money is necessary component of work, but not the essential factor.

> I'm not gonna lose only vacation expenses

By framing spending on recreation as a "loss", you have foreclosed your mind from even thinking about it rationally. Recreation is essential to man's life.

> also similar amount in lost income for every day I would not work.

Again, you are framing the issue in terms of loss. Money you don't make while on vacation is not lost income--it is not a thing you have that you lose. It is merely unearned.

> unpaid vacation

There really is no such thing as "paid vacation". Vacations are never paid for anyone. Some people have "holiday pay" or "PTO" or "vacation hours" or "sick hours", but those are all misnamed--they are earned from working and are factored into total compensation (all benefits are paid for by the employee's wages; greater benefits mean lesser wages).

> As I see it now I will give family vacation, meaning wife and children can enjoy different place (beach) and I will work from hotel room, possibly finding few free hours in early morning or late afternoon and free weekend.

Why do you think you are unworthy of vacation, that it is something to only be given to others? And, in practical terms, your plan will almost certainly lead to resentment and regret between you, your spouse, and your children. You will be thinking of the experience as a loss and sacrifice, your partner will feel lonely (the purpose of vacation is to recreation and rejuvenation of oneself and one's relationships), and you will miss out on shared unusual experiences with your kids.

The first question isn't how to justify a vacation or what kind of vacation to take. The first question is: Why do you want to take a vacation?


When you get cancer or some other malady from what you're currently doing to yourself, you'll wish you'd have justified that vacation. How do I justify it? By any means necessary to avoid the cancer or other malady that stress is guaranteed to give me.

The most important person is you, and you need to take care of yourself, first.

If you’re close to 100% and not burned out, when working, you’ll thrive.

I only learned this 12 years in. I’m on year 16 now.


Your job sucks. You should stop it immediately and find something else to do.



Guidelines | FAQ | Support | API | Security | Lists | Bookmarklet | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: