Straight Dope Message Board

[spifflog]

I don't mean the corn mash percentage, or the legal requirements of where it’s made and I know that all bourbon is whiskey, but not all whiskey is bourbon. The internet is filled that that info. And while that's good information it's not news I can use. I mean if someone tells you that vanilla ice cream is made in New England, and chocolate ice cream is made in California, how the hell does that tell you which one you will enjoy eating?

I'd like to know the taste differences. "Bourbon is generally sweeter than scotch, but less so than whiskey," or "scotch has strong vanilla flavor while whiskey tastes more like honey" for example.

We had a friend tell us that scotch had more or a peat flavor (he clear knew or had this in his memory) and then couldn't explain what a peat flavor was to any of us. After listening in to this conversation, the bartender at the bar (a fairly expensive and old one in the city) told us that he didn't believe most of his customers could differentiate between the three in a blind taste test anyway. Do you believe that to be true?

I think I'll try one of these. But I'd like a bit of a head start on where to begin, so I need some flavor information.

(And I searched for a topic on this and didn't fine one. My apologies if I missed it.) 1

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by spifflog

We had a friend tell us that scotch had more or a peat flavor (he clear knew or had this in his memory) and then couldn't explain what a peat flavor was to any of us. After listening in to this conversation, the bartender at the bar (a fairly expensive and old one in the city) told us that he didn't believe most of his customers could differentiate between the three in a blind taste test anyway. Do you believe that to be true?

That bartender is kind of ridiculous. Bourbon is much sweeter that Scotch. What they mean by a "peat flavor", I think, is that it tastes smokey.

And both scotch and bourbon are whiskey. 2

[kayaker]

Originally Posted by spifflog

he didn't believe most of his customers could differentiate between the three in a blind taste test anyway. Do you believe that to be true?

I'd put up the pink slip to my vehicle against equal value for the bet. Scotch and bourbon would be the two easiest to ID, and the third would be whiskey. 3

[Chefguy]

It's been said by those who don't like it that scotch tastes like 'burned rubber bands'. 4

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Chefguy

It's been said by those who don't like it that scotch tastes like 'burned rubber bands'.

It depends on the Scotch. The sweeter types like the Speyside malts don't really have that taste. But if you pick a peaty scotch like a Laphroaig and put it up next to any bourbon, you wouldn't even need to taste it to identify which is which. The difference in smell is incredible. My mother could tell when I've opened up the bottle of Ardbeg from across the room, it's so peaty. (It's a distinct earthy, smoky, somewhat medicinal smell. If you're having trouble figuring out that component in a scotch, order up a Laphroig or Ardbeg and you'll quickly learn what the flavor/smell is.) 5

[Corner Case]

Obligatory "Mister Roberts" clip. Other than this, I wouldn't know. The first and only time I was given a sip of 12 year old Scotch, I had to run and wash it out with some milk. I was in my 30's. 6

[silenus]

The bartender is an idiot who knows nothing about spirits.

Bourbon is corn-sweet. Depending on the rye/wheat content, the additional flavors can reflect vanilla, oak, tobacco, caramel and the like. Scotch is made from barley, which will mean much less sweetness. The amount of smokiness will range from minimal for the Lowlands to licking an ashtray for Islay. Speyside is in-between. But you'd have to have zero taste buds not to be able to tell the difference between the two types. Island malts will also have a salty component, reflecting their aging seaside.

Now, I could, with some thought, put together a blind tasting of idiosyncratic malts that would confuse most people, but it still wouldn't fool an expert. Or a drunk. 7

[Smapti]

I'll throw my voice in with those that say "smoky" is a good synonym for "peaty" in scotch.

Personally, I prefer rye over either bourbon or scotch - it's drier than the former but mellower than the latter, though I'm not averse to some Glenlivet when my budget allows for it, or for some bottled-in-bond bourbon. 8

[silenus]

Bottled-in-Bond recs: Old Grand-Dad 100 is an excellent value. So much so that Jim Beam is introducing a BIB variant. 9

[Smapti]

Originally Posted by silenus

Bottled-in-Bond recs: Old Grand-Dad 100 is an excellent value. So much so that Jim Beam is introducing a BIB variant.

I've had Jim Beam's bottled-in-bond. It's not bad, but I prefer Henry McKenna's myself.

It's amazing the extent to which the bourbon industry has boomed in the past decade that even a style which was pretty much considered old-fashioned and obsolete just a few years ago is making a comeback. 10

[Bridget Burke]

Originally Posted by Smapti

I'll throw my voice in with those that say "smoky" is a good synonym for "peaty" in scotch.

Personally, I prefer rye over either bourbon or scotch - it's drier than the former but mellower than the latter, though I'm not averse to some Glenlivet when my budget allows for it, or for some bottled-in-bond bourbon.

I enjoy Rye better than Bourbon in cocktails like the Old Fashioned--which are "new" again....

Not much of a whiskey/whisky drinker here--perhaps a shot of Powers with my Guinness for St Patrick's Day. (Irish Whisky tends to be mellow & Bourbonish.) And I did go through a Laphroig phase in my youth. Yes, "smoky" works for "peaty."

There are bars that specialize in whiskies, where the flavors can be analyzed in depth.... 11

[silenus]

spiff, head on over to Bourbon (2321 18th St. NW) and throw yourself on the mercy of the bartender. 12

[Gordon Urquhart]

Perhaps it should be added, for those unaware, that the smoky flavor and aroma of scotch (and some, as noted, are much smokier than others) comes not from the peat itself, but the burning of the peat used to stop the germination of the barley used in the mash. Because it was much more common than trees as a fuel source, peat (instead of wood) was (and continues to be) used to dry the malted barley.

Peat is simply earth that has a high organic content -- grasses, roots, moss, etc.

ETA: anyone who can't tell the difference between bourbon and even a lightly peated scotch, like a lowland or Speyside, needs to enjoy more bourbon and scotch. 13

[kayaker]

There was a time when Scotch was my vice of choice, usually on the rocks. I was in a little dump of a bar and asked for scotch on the rocks. Bartender set my glass down and I took a healthy swallow, which I almost spit right into the 'tender's face.

Turns out she had no clue what "scotch" was. There was a bottle of Chivas, she didn't know what that was either, so by default she wanted Chivas=Scotch.

That was my first time drinking Chivas Regal. I actually liked it, once I calmed down. But if you expect scotch and get chivas, it's a real shocker. 14

[JKilez]

Originally Posted by silenus

The bartender is an idiot who knows nothing about spirits.

Yeah, I can see not being able to distinguish amongst various bourbons, as the differences may be subtle, but, scotch and bourbon have fundamentally different base flavors. It is the difference between Diet Coke and Dr. Pepper. Bourbon has none of the "filtered through tube socks" flavor of scotch. 15

[silenus]

See, kayaker. Now you've gone and confused all the sober people. 16

[WotNot]

Originally Posted by silenus

The bartender is an idiot who knows nothing about spirits.

Maybe so, but I'd imagine he knows his customers well enough. As I read spifflog's account, it was his clientele he was passing judgement on. 17

[terentii]

Yes, the peat aroma is smoky, but not like wood smoke. It's closer to what you smell when you burn coal.

The island scotches I've sampled also had a kelpy-iodine flavor, I guess because they burn seaweed along with peat to toast the barley. 18

[silenus]

Originally Posted by WotNot

Maybe so, but I'd imagine he knows his customers well enough. As I read spifflog's account, it was his clientele he was passing judgement on.

Now that I can easily believe, but only if the clientele were all burnt-out old Sterno drinkers. The differences between bourbon and scotch are rather striking. I suppose a sheltered 22-year-old who thinks jalapenos are too hot to eat and shies away from Listerine might just perceive either as being "Alcohol! Burny-burny! Icky-face!" Those are the people they invented Long Island Iced Tea for.

Still doesn't excuse the "bourbon, scotch, whiskey" comment. 19

[bump]

Let's see if I can give it a shot.

Bourbon is a US-made whiskey made primarily from corn, with significant amounts of malted barley and rye and/or wheat, and usually distilled in a column still. It's then aged in a new charred oak barrel for at least a year in relatively hot conditions (relative to Scotland, anyway), although most commercial specimens are closer to 4.

Scotch is a whiskey made in Scotland primarily of malted barley and generally aged in used barrels of various sorts under cool conditions for a long time. Scotches can be made using peat fires for drying the malt, which gives it a pronounced smoky/medicinal aroma and flavor, but doesn't have to be. Scotches can be "single malt", meaning that a single fermentation was distilled, bottled and aged, or they can be a "blended malt", which means that a bunch of single malts are blended together to achieve a certain flavor profile, or they can be "blended" which means that various single malts can be blended with cheaper and less flavorful grain whiskies, which are made from other grains, and usually with a column still, rather than the traditional pot still used for the malt whisky, which gives it more character.

So what this all means is that the Scotch whiskey tends to have more of the character of the original ingredients, and less of the actual wood flavor from the barrel. This is due to the fact that Bourbon uses new barrels and uses pot stills, and Scotch tends toward pot stills and used barrels, with the pot stills being a less "clean" distillate with more character, and the new barrels imparting far more flavor. (as an aside, used Bourbon barrels are commonly used to age Scotch).

In practical terms, this means that Bourbon has a pronounced wood-derived flavor, which is a sort of vanilla-like sweetness, while Scotch has a fairly defined "malt whisky" flavor that's hard to describe. That's in broad strokes; there's a definite difference between sub-styles within the categories; wheated Bourbon (Maker's Mark, Weller) is somewhat smoother and less flavorful than high-rye Bourbon(Bulleit, Old Grand-Dad), which has a spicy sort of taste to it.

I've actually had (at a Tales of the Cocktail seminar) a sample of Glenmorangie that was aged as if it was Bourbon, for 4 years in a new charred oak barrel, as well as the white dog itself (the unaged distillate), and the same thing, only as finished Scotch. The Bourbon-style aging was very prominent- it was, for lack of a better description, much like a funky Bourbon. The white dog itself was ghastly; it tasted like scotch, but with a dollop of gasoline and something else nasty thrown in. I think the aging is primarily to knock those rough edges off. I haven't had Bourbon white dog, but I suspect it's a lot smoother of a spirit, considering that they're actually selling it at retail now. 20

[Smapti]

To further elaborate on the previous post, it is required by federal law that bourbon (which, also by federal law, must originate in the US) be aged in new barrels. Since the barrels can only be used once, old bourbon barrels are commonly sold internationally for aging of other whiskies; many scotches are aged in bourbon barrels, as are some of the Japanese single malts based on scotch style.

(And a note on the spelling; in Scotland, Canada, and Japan, it's "whisky", in America and Ireland, it's "whiskey", except with a handful of distillers who prefer to use the other spelling.)

Bottled-in-bond, which I mentioned above, is a specific subcategory of bourbon established by federal law in the 19th century. In order to qualify, the bourbon must have been produced by one distiller, at one distillery, within a single calendar year, it must be aged in a federally-bonded warehouse for at least four years, and bottled at no less than 50% ABV. The designation was created at a time when bootleg and/or ersatz whiskeys of questionable quality were in wide distribution and was intended to guarantee the buyer that the product they were buying was the good stuff; it largely fell into disuse as a result of Prohibition and until a few years ago there were only about five or six brands of bonded bourbon in production, though the number has crept up as of late. 21

[kayaker]

Originally Posted by terentii

The island scotches I've sampled also had a kelpy-iodine flavor, I guess because they burn seaweed along with peat to toast the barley.

I recently tried a beer brewed with seaweed (Kelpie), brewed in Scotland. It was delicious. I bought the four remaining bottles. Try it if you get a chance.

/hijack. Hic. 22

[eschereal]

Originally Posted by bump

Let's see if I can give it a shot.

Yeah, whatevar.

Thing is, the first time I tried "scotch", it was a vile, syrupy blend called "Cutty Sark". No other scotch I have tried since has been as unpleasant as that stuff. That may be the justification for saying a blind taste test would fool some drinkers – it depends on what scotch and what bourbon you pick for samples. 23

[Saturn Dreams]

Originally Posted by kayaker

There was a time when Scotch was my vice of choice, usually on the rocks. I was in a little dump of a bar and asked for scotch on the rocks. Bartender set my glass down and I took a healthy swallow, which I almost spit right into the 'tender's face.

Turns out she had no clue what "scotch" was. There was a bottle of Chivas, she didn't know what that was either, so by default she wanted Chivas=Scotch.

That was my first time drinking Chivas Regal. I actually liked it, once I calmed down. But if you expect scotch and get chivas, it's a real shocker.

I don't get it. Chivas is a Scotch, a blended one. 24

[silenus]

Blends are not Scotch. They are a cruel joke perpetrated on humanity by agents of Iblis, suitable only for repelling insects and stripping paint. 25

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by silenus

Blends are not Scotch. They are a cruel joke perpetrated on humanity by agents of Iblis, suitable only for repelling insects and stripping paint.

I enjoy a nice Johnnie Walker Green from time to time. Blends can be fine, but they're few and far in between. I'd be interested in learning of some interesting blends out there (if they do exist), but, outside of Johnnie Walker and the occasional Famous Grouse (which, while I realize is a pretty cheap Scotch, I enjoy from time to time due to my travels and imbibement of said whisky in Scotland), I'm pretty unlearned in the ways. Oh, and Dewar's of course. Dewar's is kind of the Jameson's of Scotch for me--something to throw back with a beer. Not much a fan of Chivas, but I do have some "rough" tastes in general, otherwise. 26

[terentii]

I would use blended scotches only as mixers for cocktails. Single malts should be sipped neat. My favorite is Glenfiddich.

I like Rusty Nails, so I usually mix Drambuie with Famous Grouse or Wm. Grant's, but I've used other blends like Dewar's, J&B, Johnny Walker, and even Cutty Sark when (f'rinstance) on airliners or at friends' homes. While not outstanding, I found them to be quite satisfactory. 27

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by terentii

I would use blended scotches only as mixers for cocktails.

Sure, the cheaper stuff. But not a $70 bottle of Green. That one is a damned tasty blend (actually, a vatted malt, like the Grouse) on its own, and I would take it over a good number of single malts. But that's the only blend I've felt that way about.

ETA: I guess there's another decent vatted malt out there, Compass Box Eleuthera. I'll have to have a look out for it. 28

[terentii]

Originally Posted by pulykamell

Sure, the cheaper stuff. But not a $70 bottle of Green. That one is a damned tasty blend (actually, a vatted malt, like the Grouse) on its own, and I would take it over a good number of single malts. But that's the only blend I've felt that way about.

Black Label and those above should be consumable on their own. I draw the line at Red Label. 29

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by terentii

Black Label and those above should be consumable on their own. I draw the line at Red Label.

Ah. Yeah, I don't really do Red Label neat. Even Black Label I generally need to mix with soda. Gold usually gets pretty good reviews, but I prefer Green over it. Blue is good, but way overpriced for what it is. I can't think of any single malt at half the price that I wouldn't take over it. 30

[Aeschines]

Many good comments! I'll try to add some things that haven't been said yet.

• Most peated malts are Islay or Island malts. One characteristic of peated malt that hasn't been mentioned is phenol. If you've had Chlorettes cough drops, you know what phenol tastes like. I've had people say it tastes like medicine and/or smells like a hospital. Peated malts can vary in the intensity of their smoky and phenolic flavors. Lagavulin is probably the smokiest malt but has less phenol. Laphroig or Ardbeg may be the most phenolic, but they have less smoke than Lagavulin.

• The flavor profile of Scotch is much broader than that of bourbon. You can have peated or unpeated malt, and a wide variety of aging barrels is used. Used sherry, port, and other wine barrels are used to impart those particular flavors. Sometimes the sherry can be a bit comical IMHO. Cragganmore Distiller's Edition tastes like they just dumped bottles of sherry into the vatting and called it a day.

• Contrariwise, the flavor profile of bourbon is pretty narrow. The laws for making it are rather strict, so it's actually hard to produce bad bourbon. But certain things can stand out. Jim Beam uses a certain yeast that gives it a distinctive flavor. Jim Beam also makes Old Grandad with a high-rye mash bill that tastes pretty unique to me. Lately I have really been into Four Roses. They have 10 different recipes using different yeasts and grain combinations (mash bills). I highly recommend their barrel-proof, single-barrel offerings! To me, Four Roses has a congac-like palate and pretty awesome, oaky finish. 31

[kayaker]

Originally Posted by Saturn Dreams

I don't get it. Chivas is a Scotch, a blended one.

Oh crap, I fucked that up. It was Crown Royal, not chivas. 32

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by kayaker

It was Crown Royal, not chivas.

You a baller! 33

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Aeschines

Many good comments! I'll try to add some things that haven't been said yet.

• Most peated malts are Islay or Island malts. One characteristic of peated malt that hasn't been mentioned is phenol. If you've had Chlorettes cough drops, you know what phenol tastes like. I've had people say it tastes like medicine and/or smells like a hospital.

First time I had an Laphroaig, it tasted not unlike Listerine to me (the original yellow flavor, not the minty stuff.) Somehow, I got used to it and grew to love it. Looking it up, this makes sense, as Listerine has many phenolic compounds, according to what I'm reading. 34