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Bozar said:
Why you make it sounds like only e621 uses the term, while in reality this term is used by all furry communities and currently doesn't even have an alternative.
We're the only ones that require consistent, non-negotiable, and "correct", intersex terms. All other sites allow leniency, if you want to call them a female go right on ahead (regardless of context, too). The worst of the worst, FA, has literally no regulation: they (the artist) have ultimate choice on what to use no matter what. E6 is the opposite, where the site requires accuracy no matter what.
The concept of going DNP over this should be obvious, with this in mind.
I dont meant to be rude but please if youre going to start this read the entire thread because weve been over this multiple times now and you are literally just wasting peoples time with a dead horse.
If you want to keep discussing why the tags shouldnt be changed then Im sorry theres literally no reason that hasnt been debunked and all youre doing is pressing an issue that is deflecting from the real issue at hand.
What were trying to do here is find the best alternative. Can you explain in actual real reasonable sense as to what is wrong eith literally all of the alternative suggestions?
Or maybe suggest a new one because if youre here to complain that this is "too pc" then Im sorry but weve heard it and frankly its not helpful.
Nobody wants to hear it. Its not an argument.
If "lol muh feels" is the only argument (and boy am I using that lightly) you have to offer, do everyone a favor and refrain from posting. If we can determine tags which are still as useful but much less vulgar, we're likely to use them instead.
GDelscribe said:
I dont meant to be rude but please if youre going to start this read the entire thread because weve been over this multiple times now and you are literally just wasting peoples time with a dead horse.
You didn't take time on commenting on any of the arguments "whats wrong with suggestions" from the previous page, you didn't make any effort to take anything useful from "36 pages" into the original post, in fact you didn't care enough to make OP look readable, you didn't even care to fix the broken formatting in it. So if you don't care about people's time, why you expect someone will care about yours?
All you do here is trying to shrug off any point that contradicts the thing you want to do.
I really really don't want starting quoting my own posts that are less than two days old.
Furrin_Gok said:
It's like people fail to see NotMeNotYou's post
You and a few others here have the least right to use that since you ignored my objections as to that. Why do you use it only to whom it fits your goal or will?
Mutisija said:
we have already went far past from the "should this be changed" to "what we should change this. even the lead admin said that cuntboy and dickgirl are vulgar terms and are better if they are changed.
You are the ones who always make strange word games and have some strange technical terms. A time came up with the idea, that his statement meant more like this: If you unable or unwilling to find these terms since a good alternative, then finished the repair.
Drkfce0 said:
This is all so stupid.. If it's not broke, don't fix it! end of story. This isn't even a subject matter (kink) i care about. But it's the principle of it all.. The last thing this site needs is tag hell.
Bozar said:
I strongly believe that the tags should be chosen NOT on the grounds of vulgarity/ethics etc, but solely on the grounds of what a casual user would type into the search field and what he would expect as a result.It also can be handled through aliases of course, but i will cause the unnecessary confusion.
Don't forget, the whole point of tags is helping people find pictures they want. E621 is an image board, not an encyclopedia.
The tags are changed, I myself have no problem with it. The only problem I have with it is when they are replaced by garbage or nonsense, so there are also some drawingers. Please, make suggestions, or give arguments for or against a tag. I also see it so that a concept should be understandable, even if I do not have a lump sum against a completely new word. But you should not take words that exist and have quite different meanings. Example: Andromorph, Gynomorph.
Clawdragons said:
I didn't know what ahegao meant when I first saw it in the tags list, so I clicked it, read the description, and now I do. Pretty easy. I don't see the problem.Actually in this case it would be even easier, because you'd see tags like gynomorph/male on a duo image and without even clicking, you'd realize "oh, gynomorph is the gender of the other character in the image", just from context.
The problems were mentioned several times, but unfortunately they are not interested, because they are against your favorites. A user on page 36, proves one of the objections. He uses gynomorph for Cuntboy. Gynomorph - Female body shape with a cuntboy who has a male body shape. A better example I can deliver on the fast not at all against the words.
You're doing as if everything is so simple, but that's not the reality. Must admit this problem we have in many words which are not based on the genital / gender schema for Cuntboy and Dickgirl. If Gynomorph, female figure means, then from the Coke bottle over females to the Dickgirl everything can be meant. Even a man with a female figure. For the reason this is not so easy from the picture, precisely because morph = form, figure in the name has. Go to the user list, users like me which tags and / or upload images are a rather small part, most have hardly written a word in the tag list. You presume that each user has an IQ of 150, or wants to contribute here.
Chaser said:
In fact, cuntboy and dickgirl are not dictionary words. You had no idea what they meant until you got into the furry community and learned. This same learning can be applied for gynomorph and andromorph.
However, there is the fact that both have already a dictionary meaning and on e621 they want to change them completely. The words say something about the appearance, the figure and here one wants to make a gender of it.
A point that is all forgotten in the whole discussion, which is very much more than a simple word change on e621. The words can spread further, as was the case with Cuntboy. It does not matter whether you want it or not, something like this happens. The words can get the same popularity. For the reason given, we should be well aware of what words we have. If the alternatives are good, then they spread faster, they are bad then can be e621 to the ridicule of the furry community. If, for example, Vagentelmen and Phalalady were met with much acceptance then we would not have the discussion, in which case you would have chosen these words already before this treat.
GDelscribe said:
What were trying to do here is find the best alternative. Can you explain in actual real reasonable sense as to what is wrong eith literally all of the alternative suggestions?Or maybe suggest a new one because if youre here to complain that this is "too pc" then Im sorry but weve heard it and frankly its not helpful.
That was months ago, today it is no longer so that prove yours and the answers of some others here daily. You speak of suggestions and arguments, but if users like me, they will be ignored, or with always the same excuse, as not relevant side by side pushed. Not even the fact that the majority against the two favorites, is interested here. I have, since I argued here with perhaps more suggestions and arguments than you put in the whole 37 pages. So I learned something about the opinion of others, I had to almost beg. Minor things were argued. The meaning of the word for non-English-speaking as secondary, when choosing the best word.
I say it again, you can not expect that all users, no matter what language, read here 37 pages. Especially if you and a few others on the last pages show you and those not even half his reading, what others write or ignored. Please finish your own, make yourself an admin, if you are not willing to participate constructively.
Apart from this, a constructive and fair discussion is more difficult, since all word suggestions are distributed on 37 pages. If, as I had suggested, the discussion of the words had been made in a new treat, with a new task, there would be no discussion at all because of the change. Moreover, in the New Treat, all the proposals that were made, perhaps including the pros and cons, could have been published.
The now only Andro and Gynomorph in the discussion are because because some have withdrawn, because they realize that it makes no sense to argue. It is all considered as secondary, even if the argument comes that it can offend people. This leads the discussion into the absurd. A question: What must still happen, that you come to the opinion that andromorph and gynomorph is not the best choice? Meanwhile, there are 2 users more against this proposal.
Siral_Exan said:
We're the only ones that require consistent, non-negotiable, and "correct", intersex terms. All other sites allow leniency, if you want to call them a female go right on ahead (regardless of context, too). The worst of the worst, FA, has literally no regulation: they (the artist) have ultimate choice on what to use no matter what. E6 is the opposite, where the site requires accuracy no matter what.The concept of going DNP over this should be obvious, with this in mind.
Hm, you are right about leniency, BUT i haven't ever seen people on other sites using some non-vulgar alternatives to "cuntboy", in those cases they usually just use FtM, female, male etc. And here no matter what the thread will come to, they still will not be allowed to tag their character with those words.
Ratte said:
If we can determine tags which are still as useful but much less vulgar, we're likely to use them instead.
What if you don't find any as useful tags?
Bozar said:
Hm, you are right about leniency, BUT i haven't ever seen people on other sites using some non-vulgar alternatives to "cuntboy", in those cases they usually just use FtM, female, male etc. And here no matter what the thread will come to, they still will not be allowed to tag their character with those words.
Cboy, cuntboi (it is a regular, but up for interpretation), surprisingly vagentleman is used, and intersex male. But that was from a search with just "cuntboy", and there are cases where posts used male sex terms (gay, male/male, m/m) as well. Leniency is the big killer for searching, there may be more terms that aren't easily findable.
Drkfce0 said:
...... The only real option (as in actually being able to adequately do the job of the tags we have now) is penisgirl/veginaboy, or at least something very much descriptively similar to them.
If it actually HAS to be feels >>> suitability and usability then let's at least try to get it as close as we can. ^
PlüschTiger said:
You are the ones who always make strange word games and have some strange technical terms. A time came up with the idea, that his statement meant more like this: If you unable or unwilling to find these terms since a good alternative, then finished the repair.
1. i cant understand half of what you are saying now
2. they claimed that we should not change anything ("If it's not broke, don't fix it! end of story") and i told them that at this point we are not discussing anymore about whether it should be changed or not.
Bozar said:
What if you don't find any as useful tags?
We have, but they keep getting tangled up in the shitposts of LUL MUH FEELS when ironically it's the same argument coming from both sides. How many of you actually use the tags in question for searching/tagging? You all make it seem like this kind of aliasing has never ever happened before when it very clearly has.
By now we are not talking about whether or not we should change the tags, but rather what we should change them to.
Ratte said:
We have, but they keep getting tangled up in the shitposts of LUL MUH FEELS when ironically it's the same argument coming from both sides. How many of you actually use the tags in question for searching/tagging? You all make it seem like this kind of aliasing has never ever happened before when it very clearly has.By now we are not talking about whether or not we should change the tags, but rather what we should change them to.
I haven't seen any, so as an admin can you please answer:
What if you don't find any as useful tags? (or "What if you didn't find any as useful tags?" if you insist)
Bozar said:
I haven't seen any, so as an admin can you please answer:
What if you don't find any as useful tags? (or "What if you didn't find any as useful tags?" if you insist)
That isn't relevant to the topic.
I use dickgirl for both, cuntboy for neither. I think the closest we've come to viable options so far are intersex_masculne/feminine or the reverse. It's as accurate as you can get, and it doesn't use any terms that a person seeing porn for the first time wouldn't know. Can't say male/female because it creates confusion about the identity vs the parts, and the morph tags everyone keeps harping on are ridiculous. It's longer than the nice succinct words we have now, but if we insist on changing them, that route beats what we've been circling.
Some of the discussion is lost on the if vs what question because a lot of the people arguing against the change aren't repeating, or what just isn't being recognized, is that in the absence of any viable option, change can't reasonably happen. If the best alternatives offered for pizza for dinner are dog shit and cow shit, you don't pick one type of shit, you stick with pizza. Everyone needs to stop being married to an option as "inevitable because it's the best so far" and honestly assess the merits of everything.
Ratte said:
That isn't relevant to the topic.
Not true. It is very relevant to the topic. Because if your answer is "we would change the tags to the worse alternative anyway" it would mean that there is no point in discussing the tags here at all, you still would do what you want, no matter if it's right or wrong.
So explaining why particular tag is a bad idea would be a complete waste of time.
Bozar said:
Not true. It is very relevant to the topic. Because if your answer is "we would change the tags to the worse alternative anyway" it would mean that there is no point in discussing the tags here at all, you still would do what you want, no matter if it's right or wrong.
So explaining why particular tag is a bad idea would be a complete waste of time.
No, it really isn't. We have already made suggestions which are better than the current tags. Unfortunately this keeps getting muddied in shitposts like yours and numerous others. Again, LUL MUH FEELS isn't an argument, it's a waste of everyone's time.
notnobody said:
I use dickgirl for both, cuntboy for neither. I think the closest we've come to viable options so far are intersex_masculne/feminine or the reverse. It's as accurate as you can get, and it doesn't use any terms that a person seeing porn for the first time wouldn't know. Can't say male/female because it creates confusion about the identity vs the parts, and the morph tags everyone keeps harping on are ridiculous. It's longer than the nice succinct words we have now, but if we insist on changing them, that route beats what we've been circling.Some of the discussion is lost on the if vs what question because a lot of the people arguing against the change aren't repeating, or what just isn't being recognized, is that in the absence of any viable option, change can't reasonably happen. If the best alternatives offered for pizza for dinner are dog shit and cow shit, you don't pick one type of shit, you stick with pizza. Everyone needs to stop being married to an option as "inevitable because it's the best so far" and honestly assess the merits of everything.
I have a preference for the intersex-based tags, but the problem is that herm is still implicated to intersex when it shouldn't be and this likely won't change. The point is to devulgarize the tags, which is a very simple thing to do and something we have done in the past for other tags.
Ratte said:
No, it really isn't. We have already made suggestions which are better than the current tags. Unfortunately this keeps getting muddied in shitposts like yours and numerous others. Again, LUL MUH FEELS isn't an argument, it's a waste of everyone's time.
Simple "No it really isn't" is not a very constructive answer, but okay, if you don't want to answer, i won't insist any further.
Ratte said:
Unfortunately this keeps getting muddied in shitposts like yours
Like mine? Now that's just not fair. In all my posts i said why i think what i think and tried to explain my point.
Bozar said:
Simple "No it really isn't" is not a very constructive answer, but okay, if you don't want to answer, i won't insist any further.Like mine? Now that's just not fair. In all my posts i said why i think what i think and tried to explain my point.
If there is no viable alternative things will be kept as they are. This is not the case for this matter, which is why your hypotheticals are irrelevant to the topic.
What other sites use doesn't really mean a whole lot since other sites don't require tagging in the first place. We have a wiki. We have aliasing. These tags would be aliased, meaning that their use would not change and they would still be found in the wiki with a link to the aliased tag.
Again, this is no longer about whether or not a change should take place, it's about which new tags we want to use instead.
This is going in circles, we'll be back with a final thread soonish and get this wrapped up there.
Current expected timeline:
- create list of possible tags
- double check them for doing the job
- run it by the rest of the staff if those tags are up for the task
- refine if necessary
- create heavily moderated thread so people can vote
Bozar
Member2 years ago
Tags must be descriptive. Or following your logic we can just as well rename it to "shfioehfihesifh" and those who don't understand can just click it in the list.
So yeah, i see the problem.
Or maybe you didn't read his post. Should i quote? Okay:
I already said why i think that there was no good suggestion yet. Current tags work best. My posts are mainly ignored though.
Also, administrator is a person, and he can (and i hope will) change his mind if many people reasonably disagree with the change that does affect them.
Again, i might be cool with the change IF some tags of the same effectiveness would be suggested, but i don't see them, i don't believe they exist.
Why you make it sounds like only e621 uses the term, while in reality this term is used by all furry communities and currently doesn't even have an alternative.