Just stating for the record that though this is the change the site is taking at this point, if you feel so strongly against it you can still put in forum suggestions for alternatives even after said change happens. I think I even saw NotMeNotYou say that at one point he wouldn't mind having a way to list lore based tags as well even if currently the system wouldn't be able to handle something like that.

This is just a thonk on that idea, but a tagging group such as
Artist/Character/lore/species/general could be included. and tags associated to lore could hold lore as a prefix to separate from the sorting system which is built around the appearance of characters i.e. image designated female with a lore tag like lore_(male)

hiekkapillu said:

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This has been suggested about million times, and it doesnt work because vagina means ONLY the inner tube connecting vaginal opening to uterus (it's common misconception that it covers external parts as well, or sometimes even that it means only the external parts). If you take a look around the pussy tag, its pretty obvious that its not common at all to have vagina visible in images. Pussy tag covers both vagina and vulva, and there really isn't any "proper" term that would cover same parts.

Y'know, I had always wondered why we used pussy when we use penis instead of cock or dick. Thanks for clearing that up.

Anonomn said:

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Reading through the thread, I'm surprised it wasn't locked after page 2. Bravo.

Lets throw my two cents in as this pitfire can't get much worse.

While the admins desire to try and make changes that can appease everybody for the better is an admirable one, the seemingly one universal constant when it comes to the kind of people who are hardcore into the 'trans movement' and the like, you can not make (all of) them happy.

There will be more level headed ones, many of which are probably lurking rather than jumping in, who either see and like the change and/or understand the impossible situation this all is, but the select few out of a fraction of a 1% of overall human population who see themselves as the morality police who speaks on the behalf of all of them, won't ever be appeased until you completely remove everything they find 'offensive' (which blasts head on into a myriad of subject matters that don't even remotely relate) and you appease their 13+ genders (Which certainly in the context of this sites "tag what you see" the very concept of 'gender' is bullshit given that there's zero consensus as to even what the hell the term means beyond reinforcing the notion that whats expected of you based on your literal physical sex is valid, flipped or not, which would be an antithesis to what seemingly all of the people who are into the trans thing seem to stand for).

Personally not a fan of the proposed obscure Greek terms for the reasons already stated many times in the thread so far, with issues of obscurity and the terms not quite being 100% applicable, and everything proposed instead having its own issues on a sliding scale of "What the hell even is this?" to "Bloats what should be a straightforward tag a mile long." I'd almost say throw out the notion of male/female all together, but given that aside from a small fraction of art this change actually applies to, literally just "Male" or "Female" in the general tags is still perfectly valid, highlighting how insignificant this all is in relation to the wider site.

I bring that point up, because for that reason I don't think having a dedicated "Establish sex" section for the tags, given it would literally either be "Male", "Female", or both for pieces with two characters of opposite sexes in the same image, for probably 95% of all the images. ie, it'd be a largely redundant addition that only serves to stroke the egos of the lot who care more about how non-conforming a characters sexuality is than literally anything else that could matter.

The fact the change aliases rather than outright replaces was the best move out of all of this, but cuntboy and dickgirl, regardless of how anyone feels about it, is still the most straight forward and descriptive way to go about it. Maybe translating it to male_with_vagina and female_with_penis would alleviate the """problematic""" connotations the more established terms have, but even that gets into bloating the tag for the sake of bloating.

Only if you're American, it being a meme that in Australia 'cunt' is used in every other sentence is a meme for a reason, to a lesser extent that holds true in Britain as well.

[edit] Fixed some redundancies / missing text. Also is anyone else having time out issues when trying to navigate the site?

In the case of this site, I believe they're using the term "gender" to refer to a set of body types + genitals. It's not trying to define what the character actually is or feels. Perhaps we should switch to using "biological sex" or just blanket it under "appearance" instead of using the terms sex or gender.

That got a little long-winded, I apologize. I hope putting them in sections makes it more readable.

Anonomn said:
Reading through the thread, I'm surprised it wasn't locked after page 2

Because if we did that, folks would say that we're "abusing our power" or "not being transparent"

This seems so pointless and ridiculous. Cuntboy and dickgirl are words that people know, NO ONE says gynomorph or andromorph. Also, it reeks of SJW politically correct bullshit.

So how many new tags and tag combinations do I need to add to my blacklist with this change?

THISISFUNNY said:
So how many new tags and tag combinations do I need to add to my blacklist with this change?

none, aliases cover it. The only reason you would need to add new tags is in the event you didn't have something blacklisted the first time.

Stormwatch said:

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This seems so pointless and ridiculous. Cuntboy and dickgirl are words that people know, NO ONE says gynomorph or andromorph. Also, it reeks of SJW politically correct bullshit.

Changing a tag that is considered a slur to something more neutral isn't a bad change. The terms are a little obscure, but future changes are possible and people will get used to them over time. Offensiveness is very relative, but this is something that has caused a lot of problems in the past.

Consider if the site used "faggot" to refer to a "girly male" character or "nigger" to refer to a dark-skinned human/humanoid character.

I don't think you'd be complaining and crying SJW over those being changed.

THISISFUNNY said:

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So how many new tags and tag combinations do I need to add to my blacklist with this change?

The aliases will continue to work. So if you blacklisted the relevant terms before, they'll stay blacklisted.

Thank you so much! I have wanted this for such a long time! Y'all are awesome!

Stormwatch said:
This seems so pointless and ridiculous. Cuntboy and dickgirl are words that people know, NO ONE says gynomorph or andromorph. Also, it reeks of SJW politically correct bullshit.

For what it is worth, I was for the change to these tags and I am heavily anti-sjw. The reason I am for it isn't because of any PC stuff, but because cuntboy and dickgirl sound a lot like someone is calling the character a cunt or a dick.
The terms are not SJW in any way, and are actually scientific biology terms, so we have actual science on our side with this one! It makes the terms less vulgar while actually making sense.

Chaser said:
For what it is worth, I was for the change to these tags and I am heavily anti-sjw. The reason I am for it isn't because of any PC stuff, but because cuntboy and dickgirl sound a lot like someone is calling the character a cunt or a dick.
The terms are not SJW in any way, and are actually scientific biology terms, so we have actual science on our side with this one! It makes the terms less vulgar while actually making sense.

Also, that should somewhat help with artists filing DNP takedowns because they don't like the way we tag things here.
That is, until someone finds another thing to nitpick, but we'll see about that.

Well huh, genuinely wasn't expecting a level headed response, thanks Ninosi, guess I'll try and do the same:

What really tugs my dick is that the moderation team seems to be so against -allowing- characters to be tagged as transsexual. Like, what's the actual harm in that?

KCDodger said:
What really tugs my dick is that the moderation team seems to be so against -allowing- characters to be tagged as transsexual. Like, what's the actual harm in that?

It's totally allowed if it's visible in the image, visibly_trans.

KCDodger said:
What really tugs my dick is that the moderation team seems to be so against -allowing- characters to be tagged as transsexual. Like, what's the actual harm in that?

they aren't, there against images being tagged as such that aren't visibly trans as it's lore based, or the possibility that people can simply declare characters as trans that aren't so it requires visual ques. just like every gender tags require evidence as to what it looks like.

Chaser said:
The terms are not SJW in any way, and are actually scientific biology terms, so we have actual science on our side with this one! It makes the terms less vulgar while actually making sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromorph
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynomorph

Just some Greek words that mean roughly "manly" and "girly".

This is a very SJW-ish change, about as much as it can be. "We hereby declare cuntboy to be a slur, from now on we shall use (another word) instead". Nothing else changes, but now fingers will be pointed at those who say "cuntboy".

If I'm tracking the origin of this right, the word itself wasn't the problem. It's a legit tag. Not offensive at all when used appropriately. There are probably artists who would prefer to see it on their works, who are into this stuff, and users who would search for it. But it's a very very niche tag, and there are very few images that should legitimately carry it.

The problem is, you pick an image and say, this be a boy. Because we say so. Oh he's got a cunt?.. huh well it's a cunt-boy then. But we said boy so boy it is. Everyone who disagrees shall be banned.

This isn't changing. You still want to keep it so that this would be "andro" and that would be "gyno", and one of them should always be tagged according to arcane rules in the wiki. And regardless of anything else, like for instance common sense. The only change is some new Greek flavor.

On top of that you've now got a full-blown SJW discussion on whether a random word is offensive to some irrelevant minority of the week.

hslugs said:
Nothing else changes, but now fingers will be pointed at those who say "cuntboy".

No? We are not banning the words, we are just making the officially tagged words different. You can still tag cuntboy/dickgirl, search cuntboy/dickgirl, or even link it like cuntboy or dickgirl.
You can even say cuntboy and dickgirl in the comments. It's perfectly fine. We will not be censoring those, nor be frowning upon it's usage. We simply wanted to make the tags less vulgar since it is directly referring to a character. People can still tag stuff like fucked_silly and what not, we are not censoring words.
If people start attacking people over usage of "cuntboy" or "dickgirl" in comments, simply report them and we will hand out warnings.

Anonomn said:

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Well huh, genuinely wasn't expecting a level headed response, thanks Ninosi, guess I'll try and do the same:

► 'Gender'/Sex

▼ 'Gender'/Sex

Blanketing it in purely under appearance would make it way too broad to talk about properly, as that gets into pretty much every physical aspect of a given person/character. So I for one would advocate strictly using "Physical Sex" or "Biological Sex" (which the latter can get slightly dicier given that we're not strictly dealing with the literally possible with things like magic and artists doing literally whatever with characters) to avoid confusion/incorrect connotation.

► 'Gender'/Physical sex tags

▼ 'Gender'/Physical sex tags

Yes that was completely hyperbole on my part from a combination of the fact TWYS accounts for what is literally there, and male/female encompasses a myriad of specifics that could be equally served by only listing those things out individually, and the fact a small subsection of people are always gonna be butthurt by the very notion 99% of people are in fact strictly male or female I wouldn't remotely want to genuinely suggest getting rid of them, for exactly the reasons you said.

► Separate category

▼ Separate category

My disdain for such steams from thinking it's needed, outside of the 4% of images (really quick napkin math based on the number you said, and the 2million said is the number of images on e621) that'd make genuine use out of it to appease again the people who stroke their ego to making changes for the sake of putting their mark on something, regardless of whether it was genuinely warranted.

► Alternate tag suggestions

▼ Alternate tag suggestions

Yes male_with_vagina male_with_pussy and female_with_penis is longer and wordier than gynomorph/andromorph, but the problem that was trying to address is no one knows what the hell a "andromorph" is, nor for reasons explained far better than I it doesn't really truly apply. "male_with_pussy" on the other hand, while still pushing the wordiness issue, describes exactly what it is with zero frills and literally no one is gonna question what it is. I still say dickgirl and cuntboy serve to do this far more elegantly, but the goal seems to be to swap them out for a perceived notion that they're problem, so we're trying to come up with an alternative that still serves the exact same function without question/issue. Doing so is obviously a impossible task given the simplicity of dickgirl and cuntboy, so compromise will have to be made, and in the spirit of "Tag what you see", I'd say male_with_pussy and female_with_penis does this the best.

I appreciate the well thought out response! I'll try to organize mine like you did.

I spent way too much time on this post.

If I don't respond with anything specific, it's only because I don't disagree with or have anything to add to what you've already said.

Thank you for being civil with a subject matter that people can easily get into a screeching fit over.

Anonomn said:

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If I don't respond with anything specific, it's only because I don't disagree with or have anything to add to what you've already said.

► Physical Sex tags

▼ Physical Sex tags

I wouldn't want to get rid of male/female/intersex tags, again the initial statement was hyperbole, given that there's a limit on number of things that can be searched in one go, and with "Tag what you see" without the physical sex tags it makes it literally impossible to differentiate from a lithe male and a equally lithe female who's flat chested, both wearing pants and no discernible buldge, with tags.
Guess I'll say again dickgirl and cuntboy are still the most elegant descriptions for this, if a bit blunt, you can reasonably have. Getting bent out of shape about it when it's well established that the tags are completely agnostic to what peoples feelings of them are seems a bit, just why?

► New tag category

▼ New tag category

How many tags even are there for sexual characteristics? While I'm still opposed for a section dedicated to 'male/female/intersex/etc', I'd be down for a section that encompasses that and everything else that applies to the person / people physically, so what genetalia they have/don't have, kinds of tails, horns, wings, etc. The general section tends to get kinda bloated and makes it hard to see if there's a specific tag in there when there's hundreds of tags. I'd call it something like "Physical Characteristics" Maybe even have a way to separate into multiple subsections so you can specify what aspects go to which characters, though I don't know how feasible that'd be with the current framework.

► Alt. tags

▼ Alt. tags

No question the one with the newer tags looks cleaner, but the male_with_pussy/female_with_penis has the benefit of someone who's never been to e621 before can look at the tag and know exactly what it means, which has been my point this entire time. Plus stuff like one_eye_closed and digital_media_(artwork) I'd say are at a equal level of clunky but functional.

Thank you for being civil with a subject matter that people can easily get into a screeching fit over.

I do wish more people were as civil, honestly. The alternative gets nowhere fast.

I'll just comment on a few things here.

Interesting change.

The new terms, to me, are confusing and easily forgettable, and would have been a problem.

But since the aliases allow using the same search terms as before, it shouldn't be an issue (apart from potentially mild confusion when looking at a picture's tags after/without a search and not seeing the tag you were looking for initially), so I have no complaints.

I preferred the original terms, but I guess I can understand why others would find them unpleasant.

Qwazzy said:
Interesting change.

The new terms, to me, are confusing and easily forgettable, and would have been a problem.

But since the aliases allow using the same search terms as before, it shouldn't be an issue (apart from potentially mild confusion when looking at a picture's tags after/without a search and not seeing the tag you were looking for initially), so I have no complaints.

I preferred the original terms, but I guess I can understand why others would find them unpleasant.

This completely. I fully admit to rolling my eyes when I saw the words chosen.

But the old ones are still usable, so if this has less people getting huffy at the site then more power to it I suppose

As long as search functionality isn't impaired in any way, I don't care, so i'm fine with this.

Whoops! Looks like whoever set the "gynomorph" tag turned it into a character!

Talarin said:
Whoops! Looks like whoever set the "gynomorph" tag turned it into a character!

The current aliasing process needs to finish before it can be changed, but at that point we can change it.

Stormwatch said:
This seems so pointless and ridiculous. Cuntboy and dickgirl are words that people know, NO ONE says gynomorph or andromorph. Also, it reeks of SJW politically correct bullshit.

hslugs said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromorph
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynomorph

Just some Greek words that mean roughly "manly" and "girly".

This is a very SJW-ish change, about as much as it can be. "We hereby declare cuntboy to be a slur, from now on we shall use (another word) instead". Nothing else changes, but now fingers will be pointed at those who say "cuntboy".

Cyberpunk 2069. The world is now split into two camps, the gynoidmorphs and the androidmorphs. The cis scum (cuntgirls and dickboys) caught in the middle are the lowest of the slave castes.

But seriously, 99% of users will adapt or just type the old tag. The change may be "SJWish" but I don't think you have to be an "SJW" to see that "cuntboy" and "dickgirl" are not perfect.

In Greek mythology and religion, a gynomorph was a bi-gendered god with both masculine and feminine characteristics. Gynomorphs were portrayed as effeminate young males, like Dionysos, a masculine god who possessed distinctly feminine features. Gynomorphs retained the creative capacity of female divinities, they had cosmic wombs, but they also possessed the inseminating abilities attributed to male divinities.

Cosmic womb? Inseminating abilities? How could you stay mad at that?!

Here's what I want to know. How many artists have submitted takedowns over these tags? At least 10? Maybe many more since takedown details are usually hidden. And can we get any of them to remove DNP status? Or will they stay perpetually offended that we ever had c-boy and d-girl tags at all or hate on the new tags? I fear that may be the case, and it will prove that respecting artists and their copyrights, as well as users' feelings, is a losing strategy for an art archive.

Gross, people in here going full-ass alt right over an attempt to make intersex people feel more welcome. Imagine being so petty.

Honestly, "dickgirl" was better, because at least y'all were acknowledging that I'm a girl lmao

"Less vulgar" ? Come on, you are a PORN ARCHIVE! I'll still use dickgirl/cuntboy despite the alternate words available.

Plus I fucking hate political correctness/SJW nonsense, please do not seep this crap into the archive.

And for the record, I am a moderate leaning left and a dude.

If you need to state that, you probably aren't.

FurZ said:
If you need to state that, you probably aren't.

Please do not misgender @Glaice.