hanzai said:
Putting a "sorry this is super condescending" at the beginning of a post doesn't actually make it any better that it's super condescending. Combined with responses like the "whether they like it or not" from another admin a bit above this one, it makes me wonder why there's even a thread open to comments from everyone if any objections are just going to be ignored or talked past.

BIG agree, probably said better than I did.

Yeah the admin posts basically saying, "if you don't like it, too bad! :P"
are really not moving this post anywhere lol

Sharkiiie said:
Yeah, I was totally unaware of a prior thread. I'm sure most of the users don't even look at the forum.

If they were to post a poll in the news section, I'm sure more would look at it.

If an admin could confirm if this thread is being used for feedback, cool. But I see several admins continuing to argue in favor of the change, which makes me think it's just a place to argue lol

It's possible those against are the minority, but it's also possible that those for the change are the minority. Most users likely don't care tbh, but this would be a lot more interesting and "fair" to see poll results.

I'm feeling slightly too lazy to go digging through the previous pages for an exact example, but I thought I remember seeing an admin say something along the lines of, "If we need to change the names again, then we change the names again, and alias both dickgirl/cuntboy and gynomorph/andromorph to those new tags."

I took that to mean that there was still room for persuading them to either reverse the decision, or implement a new decision to use yet different names for these tags.

I may have misread or misinterpreted what they were saying, or it may not have been an admin. But I still would like to believe that if they are shown they made the wrong decision, they'd acknowledge it and decide to change course.

But to do that, you have to have an idea that actually shows you have considered both sides. Reasons for why the change is good, and reasons for why the change is bad. Showing an understanding of both is key, and I think it's also key for any alternate solutions being proposed to show that understanding.

MissChu said:
Sincere question, Parasprite, how would you have changed the tags?

Anything that wouldn't have gone against what the rest of the community uses, and didn't have a dictionary definition that refers to something that's misleading in a way that would include female, male, herm, maleherm...

But this is all out of my hands now.

Furaffinity did this better already, mods here are just more worried about what the artists drawing trans body types and handwaving it away with "she was just born like that/she drank a magic dick potion" feel than how trans artists drawing trans characters feel about the tags. This is honestly the only instance in which "tag what you see" is relevant; why is a characters trans/cis status classified as uneccessary metadata while names are not, if twys is so absolute?

hanzai said:
Putting a "sorry this is super condescending" at the beginning of a post doesn't actually make it any better that it's super condescending. Combined with responses like the "whether they like it or not" from another admin a bit above this one, it makes me wonder why there's even a thread open to comments from everyone if any objections are just going to be ignored or talked past.

See, no. This is not really how this works. I'm being polite, and I am acknowledging that I may have a tone problem because of the way my life has been lately. I am taking care of a kid who has been abused, and hurt by several people for a while and I am dealing with a lot of questions where I have to slow the fuck down and try to be comforting and say that it is going to be okay, despite the fact that everything feels very not okay. I got 10 minutes alone with my husband the other night, and I didn't know how to have a conversation with him because this has been my entire existence recently. I am trying to approach this from a kind and moderate perspective -- because that's what I, as I person, do.

Just like I am accepting that the people being angry are upset and worried and I"m trying to set aside much of their anger and set it aside to try and address their issues, I am asking that other people please be tolerant of me being in "aunt wolf" mode. I am exhausted. I have been up all day. I am up late to reply here on this thread. I am taking time that I could be catching up on sleep to post here. to talk to you.

This has probably been the hardest month of my life, and I am still here to talk to you about what words we are using to refer to certain groups of beings.

I could leave y'all to the staff members who take a more hard ass approach, but I really don't want to. I like you people (as in, the users of 3621), and I want to try and make things good, but I have a very limited amount of rope here.

The staff are not a hive mind. we are all individuals. we all have our own perspectives on the matter and our own tolerances we are willing to put up with. A lot of people here are being rude as hell, and I don't understand why.

We are not enemies. We are trying to help. if our ways of helping are not good enough, then provide other answers. Instead, we have people screaming about how we're transphobic pieces of shit. That doesn't help.

If you have solutions, offer them. This thread was chosen as an declaration of change. But nothing has changed yet and we are not bricks unwilling to adjust course if we get a better--and feasible suggestion. (I"m not promising anything, but if someone had something that made us go WOW! .... we'd talk about it. we've been talking about it regularly. We talk about it a lot.

Even beside the long-ass thread mentioned before, a post about these tags comes up every couple months. it's usually brought up by someone screaming how we're transphobic pieces of shit for allowing this to exist, and not providing any alternative solutions other than "FIX IT" and even if the first person is polite enough, SOMEONE some in, happy to talk about how we're all scum for having a conversation and not jsut..... fixing it. with a magic wand, I guess. and now, here we are, trying to fit it, and I am, again, transphobic trash for not doing it the 'right' way.

the reason there's a thread is so that people know that there is change coming. and to keep there from being 10 million threads screaming about everything we're doing wrong. And keep it all in one thread instead.

we're willing to talk about this. but very few people are being polite about it. Why? I don't know. All I know is that I'm tired, and tomorrow I have the kid all day while my husband goes back to work, and I'm up far too late.

SnowWolf said:
See, no. This is not really how this works. I'm being polite, and I am acknowledging that I may have a tone problem because of the way my life has been lately. I am taking care of a kid who has been abused, and hurt by several people for a while and I am dealing with a lot of questions where I have to slow the fuck down and try to be comforting and say that it is going to be okay, despite the fact that everything feels very not okay. I got 10 minutes alone with my husband the other night, and I didn't know how to have a conversation with him because this has been my entire existence recently. I am trying to approach this from a kind and moderate perspective -- because that's what I, as I person, do.

Just like I am accepting that the people being angry are upset and worried and I"m trying to set aside much of their anger and set it aside to try and address their issues, I am asking that other people please be tolerant of me being in "aunt wolf" mode. I am exhausted. I have been up all day. I am up late to reply here on this thread. I am taking time that I could be catching up on sleep to post here. to talk to you.

This has probably been the hardest month of my life, and I am still here to talk to you about what words we are using to refer to certain groups of beings.

I could leave y'all to the staff members who take a more hard ass approach, but I really don't want to. I like you people (as in, the users of 3621), and I want to try and make things good, but I have a very limited amount of rope here.

The staff are not a hive mind. we are all individuals. we all have our own perspectives on the matter and our own tolerances we are willing to put up with. A lot of people here are being rude as hell, and I don't understand why.

We are not enemies. We are trying to help. if our ways of helping are not good enough, then provide other answers. Instead, we have people screaming about how we're transphobic pieces of shit. That doesn't help.

If you have solutions, offer them. This thread was chosen as an declaration of change. But nothing has changed yet and we are not bricks unwilling to adjust course if we get a better--and feasible suggestion. (I"m not promising anything, but if someone had something that made us go WOW! .... we'd talk about it. we've been talking about it regularly. We talk about it a lot.

Even beside the long-ass thread mentioned before, a post about these tags comes up every couple months. it's usually brought up by someone screaming how we're transphobic pieces of shit for allowing this to exist, and not providing any alternative solutions other than "FIX IT" and even if the first person is polite enough, SOMEONE some in, happy to talk about how we're all scum for having a conversation and not jsut..... fixing it. with a magic wand, I guess. and now, here we are, trying to fit it, and I am, again, transphobic trash for not doing it the 'right' way.

the reason there's a thread is so that people know that there is change coming. and to keep there from being 10 million threads screaming about everything we're doing wrong. And keep it all in one thread instead.

we're willing to talk about this. but very few people are being polite about it. Why? I don't know. All I know is that I'm tired, and tomorrow I have the kid all day while my husband goes back to work, and I'm up far too late.

You're not trash, their attitude and behavior is trash. <3

SnowWolf said:

► Click to expand

▼ Click to collapse

See, no. This is not really how this works. I'm being polite, and I am acknowledging that I may have a tone problem because of the way my life has been lately. I am taking care of a kid who has been abused, and hurt by several people for a while and I am dealing with a lot of questions where I have to slow the fuck down and try to be comforting and say that it is going to be okay, despite the fact that everything feels very not okay. I got 10 minutes alone with my husband the other night, and I didn't know how to have a conversation with him because this has been my entire existence recently. I am trying to approach this from a kind and moderate perspective -- because that's what I, as I person, do.

Just like I am accepting that the people being angry are upset and worried and I"m trying to set aside much of their anger and set it aside to try and address their issues, I am asking that other people please be tolerant of me being in "aunt wolf" mode. I am exhausted. I have been up all day. I am up late to reply here on this thread. I am taking time that I could be catching up on sleep to post here. to talk to you.

This has probably been the hardest month of my life, and I am still here to talk to you about what words we are using to refer to certain groups of beings.

I could leave y'all to the staff members who take a more hard ass approach, but I really don't want to. I like you people (as in, the users of 3621), and I want to try and make things good, but I have a very limited amount of rope here.

The staff are not a hive mind. we are all individuals. we all have our own perspectives on the matter and our own tolerances we are willing to put up with. A lot of people here are being rude as hell, and I don't understand why.

We are not enemies. We are trying to help. if our ways of helping are not good enough, then provide other answers. Instead, we have people screaming about how we're transphobic pieces of shit. That doesn't help.

If you have solutions, offer them. This thread was chosen as an declaration of change. But nothing has changed yet and we are not bricks unwilling to adjust course if we get a better--and feasible suggestion. (I"m not promising anything, but if someone had something that made us go WOW! .... we'd talk about it. we've been talking about it regularly. We talk about it a lot.

Even beside the long-ass thread mentioned before, a post about these tags comes up every couple months. it's usually brought up by someone screaming how we're transphobic pieces of shit for allowing this to exist, and not providing any alternative solutions other than "FIX IT" and even if the first person is polite enough, SOMEONE some in, happy to talk about how we're all scum for having a conversation and not jsut..... fixing it. with a magic wand, I guess. and now, here we are, trying to fit it, and I am, again, transphobic trash for not doing it the 'right' way.

the reason there's a thread is so that people know that there is change coming. and to keep there from being 10 million threads screaming about everything we're doing wrong. And keep it all in one thread instead.

we're willing to talk about this. but very few people are being polite about it. Why? I don't know. All I know is that I'm tired, and tomorrow I have the kid all day while my husband goes back to work, and I'm up far too late.

I wish you the best of luck, strength, and patience with the kid. That kind of situation can be super emotionally taxing to deal with.

I think andromorph and gynomorph are relatively clear and concise alternatives to dickgirl and cuntboy and are far less vulgar/offensive when applied to someone's character.

Any other alternative would have to be short and to-the-point to prevent the tags from turning into an underscore/parenthesis massacre.

male_(female_genitals)/female_(male_genitals) or andromorph/gynomorph

muscular_masculine_intersex or muscular_andromorph

female_body_with_penis_penetrating or gynomorph_penetrating

Just to list a few examples of problems with more wordy approaches.

SnowWolf said:
-snip-

I haven't called you, or anyone else trash, or pieces of shit, or any other insult. Nor have I done a lot of the other things you're going off about. I'm sorry to hear about the troubles going on in your life, but I can't exactly ask up front for a total stranger online to spill the details of their personal life in advance on the off-chance they're in a bad place right now. This has already gotten uncomfortably personal all of a sudden, so I'll just leave it at that and nope out for now.

gaylizards said:
Furaffinity did this better already, mods here are just more worried about what the artists drawing trans body types and handwaving it away with "she was just born like that/she drank a magic dick potion" feel than how trans artists drawing trans characters feel about the tags. This is honestly the only instance in which "tag what you see" is relevant; why is a characters trans/cis status classified as uneccessary metadata while names are not, if twys is so absolute?

Names are required for searching for specific characters, and refer to something you can see in the image: a recognizable character. This is extremely useful, which is why it's an allowed exception.
Trans/cis status is something that's not even visible, being tied to the character's mind rather than its body. Yet, that can change depending on who's depicting that character. Everyone has their own headcanon for fictional characters. Thus, people wouldn't be able to tag it reliably without looking at the source link or being familiar with the artist, which is very much against the spirit of TWYS.
Maybe there could be a character wiki for looking up non-visual tags like this...?

Furaffinity lets artists(well, uploaders but it's the artist in most cases) use whatever tags they want, which has its benefits, but e621 can't do that since the uploader is usually NOT the artist. I wouldn't call their tagging system better, anyway, since there's no rules for tagging besides "don't put your artist comments in the tags" and that's not even enforced most of the time.

I suppose trans/cis status could be put in the description of uploaded images here. There's no rules about outside information for the description, are there?

CamKitty said:
Try not insulting someone as your whole post

No thanks, but you can work on that passive-aggression yourself.
The whinging of a group of mouthy dire-children over "oh no something above two syllables? that's TOO many letters for me!" is worth less to me than the dirt under my nails.

Oh, also, some people are just born intersex. It's not a body type entirely caused by HRT or surgery, so to call it a trans body type is inaccurate at best.

Ninosi said:
I wish you the best of luck, strength, and patience with the kid. That kind of situation can be super emotionally taxing to deal with.

I think andromorph and gynomorph are relatively clear and concise alternatives to dickgirl and cuntboy and are far less vulgar/offensive when applied to someone's character.

Any other alternative would have to be short and to-the-point to prevent the tags from turning into an underscore/parenthesis massacre.

male_(female_genitals)/female_(male_genitals) or andromorph/gynomorph

muscular_masculine_intersex or muscular_andromorph

female_body_with_penis_penetrating or gynomorph_penetrating

Just to list a few examples of problems with more wordy approaches.

My goal with proposing male_(female_genitals) is that the tag would be discoverable for people who have no idea what the old tags were, and are unfamiliar with Greek root words.

Personally, I also somewhat disagree with the existence of things like muscular_dickgirl - I don't believe that should be a tag. Users should search for muscular and dickgirl (or I suppose, gynomorph now), and skip over images where the muscular character isn't the one with the penis and feminine figure.

The reason I disagree with that being a tag, is because then it feels like there's an obligation to add not just separate tags for muscular_herm and muscular_cuntboy (or, I suppose muscular_andromorph), both of which do exist... But also things like skinny_male (exists), skinny_female (doesn't), skinny_herm (nope), skinny_dickgirl (still nope...), and so on, for all sorts of various tags.

The vast majority of things like that don't have dedicated combo-tags, so why is 'muscular' an exception? It just clutters the tag lists with little benefit.

Now, on the other hand... If they modified the backend to allow tag combos to be stored as tag combos, where you actually have, say, the dickgirl (or new equivalent) tag, but then could tag that tag with muscular, skinny, etc... That'd be sweet! But that'd be a lot of work, and would likely cause performance and usability issues.

Shiitake said:
Names are required for searching for specific characters, and refer to something you can see in the image: a recognizable character. This is extremely useful, which is why it's an allowed exception.
Trans/cis status is something that's not even visible, being tied to the character's mind rather than its body. Yet, that can change depending on who's depicting that character. Everyone has their own headcanon for fictional characters. Thus, people wouldn't be able to tag it reliably without looking at the source link or being familiar with the artist, which is very much against the spirit of TWYS.
Maybe there could be a character wiki for looking up non-visual tags like this...?

Furaffinity lets artists(well, uploaders but it's the artist in most cases) use whatever tags they want, which has its benefits, but e621 can't do that since the uploader is usually NOT the artist. I wouldn't call their tagging system better, anyway, since there's no rules for tagging besides "don't put your artist comments in the tags" and that's not even enforced most of the time.

I suppose trans/cis status could be put in the description of uploaded images here. There's no rules about outside information for the description, are there?

Descriptions are perfect for stuff like the character's canonical gender, and admins frequently encourage users to put things like a character's bio in the character's wiki.

Tynach said:

► Click to expand

▼ Click to collapse

My goal with proposing male_(female_genitals) is that the tag would be discoverable for people who have no idea what the old tags were, and are unfamiliar with Greek root words.

Personally, I also somewhat disagree with the existence of things like muscular_dickgirl - I don't believe that should be a tag. Users should search for muscular and dickgirl (or I suppose, gynomorph now), and skip over images where the muscular character isn't the one with the penis and feminine figure.

The reason I disagree with that being a tag, is because then it feels like there's an obligation to add not just separate tags for muscular_herm and muscular_cuntboy (or, I suppose muscular_andromorph), both of which do exist... But also things like skinny_male (exists), skinny_female (doesn't), skinny_herm (nope), skinny_dickgirl (still nope...), and so on, for all sorts of various tags.

The vast majority of things like that don't have dedicated combo-tags, so why is 'muscular' an exception? It just clutters the tag lists with little benefit.

Now, on the other hand... If they modified the backend to allow tag combos to be stored as tag combos, where you actually have, say, the dickgirl (or new equivalent) tag, but then could tag that tag with muscular, skinny, etc... That'd be sweet! But that'd be a lot of work, and would likely cause performance and usability issues.

You make a lot of good points.

Male_(female_genitals) would be more clear and recognizable, but it would quickly cause issues with other tags becoming too verbose, as I pointed out earlier.
__________________________________________________________________________
I disagree that the muscular_intersex/male/female tags shouldn't exist.

Say a user loves seeing muscular intersex characters with non-muscular male characters. They search muscular intersex/male and have to sift through tons of posts with muscular males and/or non-muscular intersex characters.

The same thing applies to the overweight_intersex/male/female tags.
__________________________________________________________________________

The lack of existence of one tag doesn't necessarily mean another shouldn't exist. It can just mean that no one has created or implemented it yet, for whatever reason.
__________________________________________________________________________
Tag combos being stored internally would be an awesome concept really, that way you wouldn't have to have separate wikis or tag space taken up by them.

It'd be the ideal, but I don't know if that's within the scope of the site at this point. We can hope though, right?

Tynach said:
The admins did have a large forum topic with many replies from us users. The problem is that those forum topics aren't going to receive any attention from people opposed to the changes - they will be sought after and found mostly only by people who want the change.

We actually had one big thread with 37 pages of discussion, by both sides of the issue at one point as well as many, many other forum threads that were shorter but went about the same issue. Both with people for a change (any change in that regard) and then the regular people pushing for keeping the status quo.

The push back was usually either people that just don't want change out of comfort / saw nothing wrong with the current tags, don't want to "lose" to the "politically correct brigade", or straight up said they hate SJWs.

Personally I'm for a change because that might mean we get to keep more artwork on the page, which benefits everybody, and so far nobody has gotten hurt by a being a bit nicer to other people / in general.

As for discussing the change, the discussion has been going on for more than 3 years now, though we (staff) have probably been a lot more involved in it than other people have, purely because these discussions are brought to our attention time and time again. The thread is also labeled as "announcement" on purpose, it's going to happen, but we're willing to answer questions about it.

Sharkiiie said:
Sure, tagging male makes sense, since that's a common English word.
Nobody knows what gynomorph means, and the tagging system doesn't make obscure terms easy to learn without doing some digging, which most aren't going to do.

Might be easier if we had a gender tags category like we have copyright, artist, character names. We can add more, though that'd require downtime where I'm not sure how long it'd take. I'll ask our dev if we can make one, having the new tags visible in a category with the "normal" gender tags would definitely help with the association that it's a gender tag in the first place. After that they're likely willing to click it, then get bombarded with hundreds of images of the common theme of a "specific body type with genitals combination" and will thus learn the meaning without having to read anything else.
And if all else fails we just answer the question in a forum when someone asks for clarification.

NotMeNotYou said:
Might be easier if we had a gender tags category like we have copyright, artist, character names.

Downtime aside, I think this is an awesome idea!

This would be something that would go a long way to mitigating this change by emphasizing that andromorph/gynomorph are gender tags. Having a gender category with its own color would be a nice change for tag organization anyway.

Definitely 100% for this if it's something the staff ever seriously considers.

Also I just realized I didn't actually quote and reply to this part:

Tynach said:
Given that e621 changed gay to instead be male/male (among other tag changes in the past), I don't believe that preventing verbosity is high on the importance scale.

People kept tagging gay on male solo images to denote the character's sexual orientation, despite the tag gay being supposed to be used for actually male homosexual actions happening in the image.
And even with the alias being as it it people still try to tag gay on solo images, which has to be cleaned up regularly.

As such, this example is an entirely different shoe altogether.

It's about time. Bravo!

I'm not normally the sort of person who gets offended about gender things, but I've always had a certain distaste for the words dickgirl and cuntboy because they do seem pretty vulgar. Dick is questionable. Cunt isn't really part of polite vernacular no matter how you try to spin it. I've always looked the other way because who am I to tell people what words they can use to describe themselves, and there didn't seem to be any better alternatives.

I like the new words though. Hopefully this will get people to stop complaining that e621 is a terrible judgemental website because they use that dreadful "cboy" word.

While you're at it can you swap vagina for pussy? If we're all going to look at pictures of them we can probably call them by their actual name.

Reading through the thread, I'm surprised it wasn't locked after page 2. Bravo.
Lets throw my two cents in as this pitfire can't get much worse,
While the admins desire to try and make changes that can appease everybody for the better is an admirable one, the seemingly one universal constant when it comes to the kind of people who are hardcore into the 'trans movement' and the like, you can not make (all of) them happy. There will be more level headed ones, many of which are probably lurking rather than jumping in, who either see and like the change and/or understand the impossible situation this all is, but the select few out of a fraction of a 1% of overall human population who see themselves as the morality police who speaks on the behalf of all of them, won't ever be appeased until you completely remove everything they find 'offensive' (which blasts head on into a myriad of subject matters that don't even remotely relate) and you appease their 13+ genders (Which certainly in the context of this sites "tag what you see" the very concept of 'gender' is bullshit given that there's zero consensus as to even what the hell the term means beyond reinforcing the notion that whats expected of you based on your literal physical sex is valid, flipped or not, which would be an antithesis to what seemingly all of the people who are into the trans thing seem to stand for).
Personally not a fan of the proposed obscure greek terms for the reasons already stated many times in the thread so far, with issues of obscurity and the terms not quite being 100% applicable, and everything proposed instead having its own issues on a sliding scale of "What the hell even is this?" to "Bloats what should be a straightforward tag a mile long." I'd almost say throw out the notion of male/female all together, but given that aside from a small fraction of art this change actually applies to, literally just "Male" or "Female" in the general tags is still perfectly valid, highlighting how insignificant this all is in relation to the wider site. I bring that point up, because for that reason I don't think having a dedicated "Establish sex" section for the tags, given it would literally either be "Male", "Female", or both for pieces with two characters of opposite sexes in the same image, for probably 95% of all the images. ie, it'd be a largely redundant addition that only serves to stroke the egos of the lot who care more about how non-conforming a characters sexuality is than literally anything else that could matter.
The fact the change aliases rather than outright replaces was the best move out of all of this, but cuntboy and dickgirl, regardless of how anyone feels about it, is still the most straight forward and descriptive way to go about it. Maybe translating it to male_with_vagina and female_with_penis would alleviate the """problematic""" connotations the more established terms have, but even that gets into bloating the tag for the sake of bloating.

Snergal said:
Cunt isn't really part of polite vernacular no matter how you try to spin it.

Only if you're American, it being a meme that in Australia 'cunt' is used in every other sentence is a meme for a reason, to a lesser extent that holds true in Britain as well.
[edit] Fixed some redundancies / missing text. Also is anyone else having time out issues when trying to navigate the site?

Snergal said:

While you're at it can you swap vagina for pussy? If we're all going to look at pictures of them we can probably call them by their actual name.

This has been suggested about million times, and it doesnt work because vagina means ONLY the inner tube connecting vaginal opening to uterus (it's common misconception that it covers external parts as well, or sometimes even that it means only the external parts). If you take a look around the pussy tag, its pretty obvious that its not common at all to have vagina visible in images. Pussy tag covers both vagina and vulva, and there really isn't any "proper" term that would cover same parts.

Okay, I'm just coming in here to say that I was completely unaware of the forum posts as I don't browse the forum for this site-- it's an imageboard... I use it to look up images. I am one of the users that would not have known about ANY OF THIS had a friend not linked this thread to me directly. I would have been completely unaware that this was an 'issue' being discussed.

While I'm mostly personally indifferent on the changing of tags since the aliases will still exist, I do agree that the terms decided on are long-winded, vague, and downright confusing in the sense that they are likely words that the average individual has never seen before. So I agree that the terms chosen aren't good ones, but in the end this change will not affect me greatly so I'm rather neutral on the whole thing.

I agree with Tynach that you're more likely to attract people pushing for change to a topic than those who are unaware that there is any issue whatsoever, such as myself, as I don't get involved in the forums / non-image posts of e621.

I would not have been against a poll, preferably set up as a banner at the top much like the news notification or as a direct system message to users. I literally had to go double-check if e621 had a direct message system because mine has NEVER been used, lol.

In the end, whatever happens happens.

PS. I also want to toss out a thank you to everyone in this thread who has remained civil discussing the topic.

I'm ah, I'm gonna be honest, I couldn't actually get through the first few pages of comments without getting a headache.

Guys, it's tag what you see, not what you know. On visual alone it's fairly difficult to tell art of an intersex, be it merely full genital difference or hermaphrodite outright, character and a transgender one.

This seems like a similar issue to F-List where folks want the terms changed but few solutions are offered and when ones are stated they are always seen as insufficient/incorrect. Given it's tag what you see on here my best solution would be masculine/feminine_intersex or similar, as... "andromorph" and "gynomorph" seem better suited to describing physiology such as masculinity and femininity overall versus the sexual anatomy which is what is the focus here.
Can anyone think of other usable terms that are both non-vulgar or at least minimally-offensive and do not become entirely clunky/unusable due to sheer length?

Edit; talked a bit with a friend who is more into the alphabet scene than I am (my apologies, the exact sequence of letters eludes me), she suggested using trans tags for characters that have the relevant pre/post op features such as scars and identifiers that show that while a character has made efforts to transition they are biologically the opposite sex, while intersex is used for those that have no such defining characteristics that would, visually, identify them as not having just straight-up been born that way. Beyond scars, adam's apples, bone and muscle structure differences, there's no real way to tell in most art if a character is trans as it's not really a visible thing any more than you would look at a male character and be able to say "he's gay" just on appearance alone.

VotP said:
Can anyone think of other usable terms that are both non-vulgar or at least minimally-offensive and do not become entirely clunky/unusable due to sheer length?

Maybe manly_intersex/girly_intersex could be used instead? But then again, that'd probably make things more confusing considering what the current definitions for manly and girly are. I doubt it'd be worth rewriting stuff, so uh, I guess nevermind.

VotP said:
... it's not really a visible thing any more than you would look at a male character and be able to say "he's gay" just on appearance alone.

Exception here, of course, for George Takei.

VotP said:

Edit; talked a bit with a friend who is more into the alphabet scene than I am (my apologies, the exact sequence of letters eludes me), she suggested using trans tags for characters that have the relevant pre/post op features such as scars and identifiers that show that while a character has made efforts to transition they are biologically the opposite sex, while intersex is used for those that have no such defining characteristics that would, visually, identify them as not having just straight-up been born that way.

That tag actually exists, it's visibly_trans

MyNameIsOver20charac said:
That tag actually exists, it's visibly_trans

Well that should solve half the problems.

I TOLD YOU PEOPLE NOT TO DO THIS YEARS AGO. WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?

Happyfaec said:
I TOLD YOU PEOPLE NOT TO DO THIS YEARS AGO. WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?

I hate to break this to you, but your word in this matter doesn't weight as much as you seem to think. Also it has been explained quite many times why this change will be made.

zedthecat said:
so if your changing these tags because they are "vulgar" are you also going to rename the "fucked_silly" tag because that includes vulgar language as well?

It's the sense of other tags changing name that's something that is forever a possibility for legitimately any tag, as change is something that is always a chance. It's possible that the tag could be aliased to a tag which is a sole word, or multiple words depending on if someone brings something sensible to the table.