DrNick said:
This would be a whole lot less absurd if literally anyone, anywhere, *ever* will search for gynomorph or andromorph. But they won't -- these are bogus made up newspeak tags that exist only to try and appease -- nobody will ever actually use them.

Funny, I remember someone saying pretty much the same thing about cuntboy when that was coined on usenet in early 90s. Language evolves.

Sharkiiie said:
Yeah just wanted to add I think this is a dumb change.
All it does is makes learning tags harder for new users, and confuse current users.

If users unable to process porn without the immediate terms "dick" and "cunt" are the ones we lose, one presumes we're not losing much then.

EightyNine said:
If users unable to process porn enough to operate it without the terms "dick" and "cunt" are the ones to suffer, one presumes we're not losing much then.

It's not so much that e621 'lose' users 'unable to process porn ... without the terms "dick" and "cunt"', but rather that it seems e621 is now requiring users to be familiar with relatively obscure Greek root words.

I think the most mainstream words that use either of those prefixes are 'gynecology' and 'androgynous'. If that's the extent of your familiarity with those prefixes, you'd never guess what those words meant.

Tynach said:
It's not so much that e621 'lose' users 'unable to process porn ... without the terms "dick" and "cunt"', but rather that it seems e621 is now requiring users to be familiar with relatively obscure Greek root words.

I think the most mainstream words that use either of those prefixes are 'gynecology' and 'androgynous'. If that's the extent of your familiarity with those prefixes, you'd never guess what those words meant.

Species tags use large, unfamiliar words all the time. I doubt the average layman would know what euplerid, proboscidean, mephitid, etc etc is.

Yet the tags and people using them still function relatively fine, even if a small delve into wiki pages is needed every once in a while.

ImpidiDinkaDoo said:
Species tags use large, unfamiliar words all the time. I doubt the average layman would know what euplerid, proboscidean, mephitid, etc etc is.

Yet the tags and people using them still function relatively fine, even if a small delve into wiki pages is needed every once in a while.

Species tags are sectioned off at the top, and if you are looking for images that are the same species, you don't have to try to mentally figure out if the tag you're looking at is a species tag or not. The same cannot be said for these tags for biological sex.

Besides, weren't you earlier saying that long, 'tedious' tags are bad? At least, as a reason why my proposal on the previous page was less desirable?

ImpidiDinkaDoo said:
Species tags use large, unfamiliar words all the time. I doubt the average layman would know what ... mephitid, etc etc is.

Because skunk implies mephitid, and the page shows both the tag skunk and mephitid...

So how about we have dickgirl imply gynomorph and display both, by that logic?

Tynach said:
Species tags are sectioned off at the top, and if you are looking for images that are the same species, you don't have to try to mentally figure out if the tag you're looking at is a species tag or not. The same cannot be said for these tags for biological sex.

Besides, weren't you earlier saying that long, 'tedious' tags are bad? At least, as a reason why my proposal on the previous page was less desirable?

Long tedious tags are bad if they are unnecessary and/or incredibly repetitive. Scientific animal classifications are not that, clothed_big_breasted_woman_with_penis (just an oddball example here) is. Your suggestion was the latter, imho.

Also what happens if the characters have oddball, animal genitalia as well? There are images that can be classified as man with a vagina for TWYS purposes, but show a character with a very obviously visible cloaca rather than just a vagina. Your tag suggestions wouldn't sit right in that situation, imho.

Tynach said:
It's not so much that e621 'lose' users 'unable to process porn ... without the terms "dick" and "cunt"', but rather that it seems e621 is now requiring users to be familiar with relatively obscure Greek root words.

Why not? So they have to learn a couple new terms. We learn new things every day and learning two relatively simple to learn words isn't all that hard. Unless one hates learning things or considers the average user of e621 to be stupid. It seems to me that the staff of e621 has a higher opinion of the user base's smarts than that.

Sharkiiie said:
Because skunk implies mephitid, and the page shows both the tag skunk and mephitid...

So how about we have dickgirl imply gynomorph and display both, by that logic?

Ah, that's easy. There are mephitids that aren't skunks, but not skunks that aren't mephitids. Since the tags are similar but not identical, it makes sense to have two separate tags.

In this case, they want to simply get rid of the 'vulgar' words 'cunt' and 'dick'. I feel like there's no real need to on a porn site, but I also understand that my personal opinion isn't shared by many others, and it's believable to assume that most people don't want those two words associated with their character's biological sex.

But anyway, since the two tags are literally describing the same phenomenon and are exact synonyms, it makes sense to replace one with the other.

Clawstripe said:
Why not? So they have to learn a couple new terms. We learn new things every day and learning two relatively simple to learn words isn't all that hard. Unless one hates learning things or considers the average user of e621 to be stupid. It seems to me that the staff of e621 has a higher opinion of the user base's smarts than that.

It's more likely that they won't know what the terms mean, so will have no reason to look them up. If you're new and don't know what the proper term is for 'a girl with a penis and no vagina', and so you find a picture that fits that description and go searching through the tag list, you're not going to look up each tag you don't understand. There could be 50, even 100 tags to look at, and if 20 of them contain terms you don't know, and don't look related to what you're looking for, there's no reason to try looking them up.

Hence my suggestion of using female_(male_genitals) and male_(female_genitals).

Tynach said:
Ah, that's easy. There are mephitids that aren't skunks, but not skunks that aren't mephitids. Since the tags are similar but not identical, it makes sense to have two separate tags.

In this case, they want to simply get rid of the 'vulgar' words 'cunt' and 'dick'. I feel like there's no real need to on a porn site, but I also understand that my personal opinion isn't shared by many others, and it's believable to assume that most people don't want those two words associated with their character's biological sex.

But anyway, since the two tags are literally describing the same phenomenon and are exact synonyms, it makes sense to replace one with the other.

Cunt ant dick aren't why they're calling it vulgar, when other tags like cock_vore exist. A small number of users are offended by it.

The argument was that some other tags use weird greek names, but I'm willing to bet not many people manually tag that, rather they get implied.

So why make 2 fairly popular tags some obscure name?

Tynach said:
It's more likely that they won't know what the terms mean, so will have no reason to look them up. If you're new and don't know what the proper term is for 'a girl with a penis and no vagina', and so you find a picture that fits that description and go searching through the tag list, you're not going to look up each tag you don't understand. There could be 50, even 100 tags to look at, and if 20 of them contain terms you don't know, and don't look related to what you're looking for, there's no reason to try looking them up.

Hence my suggestion of using female_(male_genitals) and male_(female_genitals).

When you search a tag, the tag will immediately show you what tag it's aliased to at the top, like with every other tag alias. Search dog, and domestic_dog is shown at the top. Search intersexual, and intersex is shown at the top.

Same thing will happen here; search for cuntboy, andromorph shows at the top, indicating it is the tag used in place for the term being searched. Instantly the user knows what the tag is and is used for, and can maybe glance at the wikia to see the root words that made up the term itself.

Sharkiiie said:
Cunt ant dick aren't why they're calling it vulgar

Except... yeah, that is kind of why. The vulgarity of the tags is contextual, as we're trying to make the tags just as neutral as the base male and female tags are. We don't call the female tag cuntgirl, do we? That's the vulgarity here.

Other vulgar tags share the vulgarity equally among their variants, whereas male and female aren't nearly as vulgar as the other gender tags in question. To remedy this, we either start using cuntgirl and dickboy instead of female and male, or we try putting them on an equal playing field. We chose the latter, the best out of the options imho.

Sharkiiie said:
Cunt ant dick aren't why they're calling it vulgar, when other tags like cock_vore exist. A small number of users are offended by it.

The argument was that some other tags use weird greek names, but I'm willing to bet not many people manually tag that, rather they get implied.

So why make 2 fairly popular tags some obscure name?

Do we really have to explain the differences in verbiage used to describe an action vs the verbiage used to describe people's characters? Calling a penis a cock is not the same as calling a person a cock.

Sharkiiie said:
Cunt ant dick aren't why they're calling it vulgar, when other tags like cock_vore exist. A small number of users are offended by it.

The argument was that some other tags use weird greek names, but I'm willing to bet not many people manually tag that, rather they get implied.

So why make 2 fairly popular tags some obscure name?

cock_vore does not apply to the identity of a character, and is also using cock instead of dick. Which is silly, and I think neither cock nor dick is vulgar or offensive... But I do understand that cock_vore, or even dick_vore or cunt_vore, are applying to an act, rather than a person as a whole.

Essentially, with dickgirl and cuntboy, there is no escape from the label. It doesn't matter what that character is doing, if their genitals are showing they are being labeled with the tag that most applies to them.

NotMeNotYou said:
Do we really have to explain the differences in verbiage used to describe an action vs the verbiage used to describe people's characters? Calling a penis a cock is not the same as calling a person a cock.

I didn't say that?
It's a girl with a dick, not a girl that is a dick (literally a penis, or are rude). That's what the current tag means.

ImpidiDinkaDoo said:
When you search a tag, the tag will immediately show you what tag it's aliased to at the top, like with every other tag alias. Search dog, and domestic_dog is shown at the top. Search intersexual, and intersex is shown at the top.

Same thing will happen here; search for cuntboy, andromorph shows at the top, indicating it is the tag used in place for the term being searched. Instantly the user knows what the tag is and is used for, and can maybe glance at the wikia to see the root words that made up the term itself.

That's actually an excellent point! But it doesn't help with the case I specifically outlined: a new user who has not been on the website, nor in the fandom, nor associated with the LGBTQ+ movement, for very long. They would not know what to search for. This includes the tags cuntboy and dickgirl. They'd not know to search for those, nor would they know to search for gynomorph/andromorph.

Instead, they would find an image that has what they want, and look at the mountain of tags next to said image.

Sharkiiie said:
I didn't say that?
It's a girl with a dick, not a girl that is a dick (literally a penis, or are rude). That's what the current tag means.

The thing is, even in non-explicit images, this term is tied to the character. A female character with a noticeable bulge, despite being in a relatively safe or questionable context, is then tied with the term dick despite nothing being visible. Imagine if the male tag was called dickboy, even in incredibly safe works. It's a bit bizarre

Tynach said:
That's actually an excellent point! But it doesn't help with the case I specifically outlined: a new user who has not been on the website, nor in the fandom, nor associated with the LGBTQ+ movement, for very long. They would not know what to search for. This includes the tags cuntboy and dickgirl. They'd not know to search for those, nor would they know to search for gynomorph/andromorph.

Instead, they would find an image that has what they want, and look at the mountain of tags next to said image.

Honestly that could possibly be remedied with an easy to find "intro" to the site page or something we could fashion up. I've had a similar idea in mind for something like this with basic things to tag on posts, wouldn't be against one for newer users to get a grasp on basic tags.

Sharkiiie said:
I didn't say that?
It's a girl with a dick, not a girl that is a dick (literally a penis, or are rude). That's what the current tag means.

Which is why I personally don't think the change is needed. However, it's a label - and I can see someone associating the phrase, "You are a cuntboy," closely with the phrase, "You are a cunt." Someone raised in an environment where the latter is frequently said in a very negative manner, probably doesn't want to have their character labeled in the same manner as the former.

ImpidiDinkaDoo said:
The thing is, even in non-explicit images, this term is tied to the character. A female character with a noticeable bulge, despite being in a relatively safe or questionable context, is then tied with the term dick despite nothing being visible. Imagine if the male tag was called dickboy, even in incredibly safe works. It's a bit bizarre

Sure, tagging male makes sense, since that's a common English word.
Nobody knows what gynomorph means, and the tagging system doesn't make obscure terms easy to learn without doing some digging, which most aren't going to do.

Tynach said:
Which is why I personally don't think the change is needed. However, it's a label - and I can see someone associating the phrase, "You are a cuntboy," closely with the phrase, "You are a cunt." Someone raised in an environment where the latter is frequently said in a very negative manner, probably doesn't want to have their character labeled in the same manner as the former.

Right, if they take the term the wrong way. But in that case we are taking a small percentage of users feelings into consideration over the majority's.

Sharkiiie said:
Sure, tagging male makes sense, since that's a common English word.
Nobody knows what gynomorph means, and the tagging system doesn't make obscure terms easy to learn without doing some digging, which most aren't going to do.

Well it looks like they are gonna learn, whether they like it or not :V

ImpidiDinkaDoo said:
The thing is, even in non-explicit images, this term is tied to the character. A female character with a noticeable bulge, despite being in a relatively safe or questionable context, is then tied with the term dick despite nothing being visible. Imagine if the male tag was called dickboy, even in incredibly safe works. It's a bit bizarre

Honestly that could possibly be remedied with an easy to find "intro" to the site page or something we could fashion up. I've had a similar idea in mind for something like this with basic things to tag on posts, wouldn't be against one for newer users to get a grasp on basic tags.

Would annoy anyone who visits from multiple computers/devices, having to skip through it every time e621 thinks they're a new person...

... Or, if it's not forced into people's faces from the start, nobody will even look at it.

And are you really going to sit down and look at the entire list of all tags on the site, sort them by 'likelihood to cause confusion' (which is a poorly defined attribute to begin with), and write a description for, say, the top 20 such tags?

I really doubt that sort of thing is feasible.

TheHuskyK9 said:
Well it looks like they are gonna learn, whether they like it or not :V

And what of the scenario I outlined? How will a new user who is unfamiliar with even the former tag names, learn what the new ones are? What about these tags will indicate that they relate to the genitals and biological sex of the characters in an image?

I really think there should be polls for large tag changes, or preferences on what alias displays for each user.
Since admins seem to be saying "oh well, fuck you, this is what we want."

My problem isn't "wahh, I like the old tags!", I just think the new tags are too confusing and unnecessary.

Sharkiiie said:
I really think there should be polls for large tag changes, or preferences on what alias displays for each user.
Since admins seem to be saying "oh well, fuck you, this is what we want."

My problem isn't "wahh, I like the old tags!", I just think the new tags are too confusing and unnecessary.

The admins did have a large forum topic with many replies from us users. The problem is that those forum topics aren't going to receive any attention from people opposed to the changes - they will be sought after and found mostly only by people who want the change.

The new tags don't appear to be in effect yet, and I believe that it's possible that this thread is for collecting feedback from everyone else on the change. It's linked at the top of every page in the 'news' section, so it'll be found and commented on by many more users than the previous topic.

If polls were similarly made with a similar usability, I think that'd also be an excellent idea - and one I definitely agree with. However, it does not appear to me that the admins made this decision because it's only what they wanted. I think they genuinely believed that most users of the website wanted this.

And for all I know, they might be right. Those of us who are opposed might be a very loud minority. But that's why polls are such a good idea: helps weed out what is and what is not an actual majority opinion, as long as the poll is visible equally to both sides of the debate.

EightyNine said:
If users unable to process porn without the immediate terms "dick" and "cunt" are the ones we lose, one presumes we're not losing much then.

Try not insulting someone as your whole post

Sharkiiie said:
I really think there should be polls for large tag changes, or preferences on what alias displays for each user.
Since admins seem to be saying "oh well, fuck you, this is what we want."

My problem isn't "wahh, I like the old tags!", I just think the new tags are too confusing and unnecessary.

Okay, sorry If I sound like I"m talking down to you a bit here, but I've been taking care of a kid who's going through a lot of change right now. I'm not sure I can swap out of "aunt wolf" mode. So please, no offense intended.

Change is big and scary. and it looks weird, and it feels uncomfortable and it's shaped wrong. No one really likes it, unless the change is something they can really grasp and understand.

You're USED to things being a certain way, and that's okay! That's what we do, as humans. we get comfortable with the world a certain way. 90% of us like a nice regular predictable day to day life with random adventures of our choosing. we don't like it when stuff changes and we need to adapt.

But we DO adapt.

In a year, you'll be familiar with these new tags. You'll have figured out whatever it is your brain needs to remember it (Again, working with a kid lately: There's lots of talking about how peopel learn in different ways and how you gotta figure out what makes your brain remember best!) and in a year, you'll wonder what all the fuss now was about. It's different and that means it's scary, but we can learn. <3 every word we know we've learned, from Cat to Mom to Dictionary to yeet. SOme are faster than others. Some take a while. You'll get this though.

I know you will <3

Tynach said:
The admins did have a large forum topic with many replies from us users. The problem is that those forum topics aren't going to receive any attention from people opposed to the changes - they will be sought after and found mostly only by people who want the change.

The new tags don't appear to be in effect yet, and I believe that it's possible that this thread is for collecting feedback from everyone else on the change. It's linked at the top of every page in the 'news' section, so it'll be found and commented on by many more users than the previous topic.

If polls were similarly made with a similar usability, I think that'd also be an excellent idea - and one I definitely agree with. However, it does not appear to me that the admins made this decision because it's only what they wanted. I think they genuinely believed that most users of the website wanted this.

And for all I know, they might be right. Those of us who are opposed might be a very loud minority. But that's why polls are such a good idea: helps weed out what is and what is not an actual majority opinion, as long as the poll is visible equally to both sides of the debate.

Yeah, I was totally unaware of a prior thread. I'm sure most of the users don't even look at the forum.

If they were to post a poll in the news section, I'm sure more would look at it.

If an admin could confirm if this thread is being used for feedback, cool. But I see several admins continuing to argue in favor of the change, which makes me think it's just a place to argue lol

It's possible those against are the minority, but it's also possible that those for the change are the minority. Most users likely don't care tbh, but this would be a lot more interesting and "fair" to see poll results.

SnowWolf said:
Change is big and scary.

...

You're USED to things being a certain way

...

In a year, you'll be familiar with these new tags.

Again, it's not just that I don't want change, if they were better terms I wouldn't care as much.

As for the talking down bit, see my last reply lol
Hence why I said this seems like a change admins want, y'all have the power, and only argue in favor of the change, shooting down everything any user says against the change.

SnowWolf said:
-snip-

Putting a "sorry this is super condescending" at the beginning of a post doesn't actually make it any better that it's super condescending. Combined with responses like the "whether they like it or not" from another admin a bit above this one, it makes me wonder why there's even a thread open to comments from everyone if any objections are just going to be ignored or talked past.