Versperus said:
Considering you've said nothing useful thus far, declared other users as transfobic for disagreeing with you, and there are other users in this forum who've stated themselves as trans and getting points across civilly, it seems as though you're only trying to cause a disturbance at this point. and all that will achieve is getting this forum locked, which will only ruin the opportunity for others like you to say their bits before action takes place.

(Fun fact did you know phobia doesn't mean hate but fear?)

lol cis bigot triggered more at 11

(sorry this took so long. I am so tired, and so busy right now, it is not even funny)

fatdoggeh said:
Did y'all like. Talk to a trans person about the new terms.

I mean, I'm not going to out anyone here, but we have a wide variety of people on our staff. Including several trans people, and other people who do not conform to the gender binary. We have people from a variety of sexualities as well. Not to mention a variety of nationalities, for that what is worth in this discussion. (it's worth more than you think, actually -- I had an interesting conversation today with a non-e621 friend about if "it" is an acceptable way to refer to a specific child of an undisclosed gender. we had different opinions due to the way our languages regard pronouns!)

Past that, if you fo to the forum, and sort by number of replies... and scroll past the forum games, and the bug report and feature requests, and one or two generic discussion threads, you'll find a thread with 1099 replies. that's 37 pages where we had a long, detailed conversation, over about 6 months, where a great many people weighted in on this conversation.

So. Yes.

We did, like, talk to a trans person. a great many of them. This was one of the favored options. This is what a lot of trans people wanted.

Source: I am trans. My friends are trans. We are not happy about this.

Trans people are not a singular entity. You are not a hive mind. you do not speak for all trans people. Thank you for sharing your opinion and that of your friends.... and if you have a better option, you might suggest them... but I promise that a L O T of ideas have been considered, discussed and thought about. This has been a long ass project that we have ALWAYS been willing to discuss with people who start the discussion politely.

And, as a suggestion for better terms? Just use trans and intersex. You're using us as fetish fuel the least you can do is not dig through history to find terms that let you distance yourself from acknowledging our existence.

These were actually the very first suggestions mentioned in the thread I mentioned. It was dismissed because sex isn't gender and gender isn't sex. we can't visually determine if a character is trans based just off of their body. I know many men with breasts and a vulva, and many women with a penis. The body does not indicate the state of mind. we are tagging the BODY, not the mind. That's why we have the visibly trans tag, y'know?

fatdoggeh said:
Citing site policy is not a very good defense against allegations of having a transphobic site policy. Because, the thing about site policy, is that it can be changed to not be transphobic.

Before you say it, yes, I know you weren't trying to defend against said allegations, and you were merely stating the site policy as everyone here is wont to do any time criticism arises. But being okay with having a transphobic site policy is not a very good way to quell criticisms about said transphobic site policy.

It's computer system which is applied equally to now nearly 2 million posts. I do not personally see it as transfobic, but simple organizing system. We are still artwork archive which is not restricted into reality.

We can change it, but that is like country changing its constitution, it means completely changing the whole foundation, which would mean essentially starting from scratch, for something that's relatively minor issue overall.

The current change is to at least make the terms used less slurry and pornographic while still complying with the system in use, because changing system would technically mean nuking the whole site and starting from the beginning again.

MagnusEffect said:
What's the current 2-post gynomorph character tag being cleaned up into?
Or is it just going to be slapped into the new tag when the alias rolls through?

New page, bumping my legit question in the middle of this shitstorm.

weirdoslam said:
yes we all know the scientific term. it’s also not used on humans in biology cuz there’s no known form of human intersex that can be truely described as hermaphroditism.

So if it isn't a thing humans can be, why get offended over it?

weirdoslam said:
and intersex people irl fucking hate that term. it’s obv a slur, fucking any actual intersex person and they will tell u so 100%. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y9oQThUHRc

Anyone can say any word is offensive, it doesn't make it is actually offensive.

weirdoslam said:
and btw. the “fun time” of trans people, lifelong trans furries on this site, is already being ruined every day by this considering bullshit by the mod team.

We tried fixing the issue for some people, you clearly are not happy that we even attempted to make a change for the better. God forbid us try to be nice.
The "fun time" being, some people want to have a cuntboy character, some people want to have a dickgirl character, some people want to have a herm character. It is their choice and you should respect it. Just because they have these characters DOES NOT make them transphobic, it does not make the terms transphobic. People using these terms to call transgender people this is just like calling a transgender female a male, or visa versa. They are "misgendering them", it doesn't make "male" or "female" and offensive term.

weirdoslam said:
and if ur a cis bigot and our questioning and critiquing of ur fucking reactionary hate speech is ruining ur “fun time”, fucking good. ur evil for getting joy in transphobia and u don’t deserve to have any fun at all.

You are the one being hateful here. Using cis in a derogatory fashion. I will have you know I am actually genderfluid and pansexual. Also please learn what hate speech is, I recommend oxford dictionary.

Chaser said:
Herm is short for Hermaphrodite, which is a scientific term. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite

Hermaphrodite is not a term that's been used to describe people in a scientific sense in many, many years, because the scientific community listened to intersex people telling them it was dehumanizing, and adapted their language. Intersex people consider it to be a slur. That's not something that a non-intersex person gets to decide is untrue.

And here is a wikipedia article for you as well
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Mairo said:
It's computer system which is applied equally to now nearly 2 million posts. I do not personally see it as transfobic, but simple organizing system. We are still artwork archive which is not restricted into reality.

We can change it, but that is like country changing its constitution, it means completely changing the whole foundation, which would mean essentially starting from scratch, for something that's relatively minor issue overall.

The current change is to at least make the terms used less slurry and pornographic while still complying with the system in use, because changing system would technically mean nuking the whole site and starting from the beginning again.

sorry to tell u but ur organizing metadata system is transphobic and this is not a minor problem considering how many trans folks are in the furry community now and this would be something worth “nuking the whole site” over even tho these posts would still be here and would just need new metadata. god y’all fucks are so over dramatic

MagnusEffect said:
New page, bumping my legit question in the middle of this shitstorm.

at least be honest with ur intentions and just say “@all_trans_folx pls stfu”

MagnusEffect said:
New page, bumping my legit question in the middle of this shitstorm.

It was added by a secondary user a few years ago, the tag doesn't actually relate to the post in question in anyway after inspecting the source to see if the artist had it there in regards to anything which it wasn't and thus I simply removed it.

edit: nothermind, with how he used it I classed it as a species and suffixed his name to those posts.

weirdoslam said:
stuff

fatdoggeh said:
things

Look, you two, the bottom line is this.
This isn't your website to run, nothing you say or do will change anything.
If you don't like how the website is being run, go start your own website. Sure, it'll most likely fade into obscurity within a few weeks, but you'd be proud, nonetheless, to have made a website that you feel is better than e621.
Regardless, I think you should follow Valophis Nyx's example and leave before you lose any more of your credibility by continuously arguing with staff and administration.

vaelophis_nyx said:
I'm outta here, I don't have the time, patience or energy for you all
I hope the administration team takes a closer look at this decision, and maybe bothers to talk to anyone it will effect.

Untamed said:
Look, you two, the bottom line is this.
This isn't your website to run, nothing you say or do will change anything.
If you don't like how the website is being run, go start your own website. Sure, it'll most likely fade into obscurity within a few weeks, but you'd be proud, nonetheless, to have made a website that you feel is better than e621.
Regardless, I think you should follow Valophis Nyx's example and leave before you lose any more of your credibility by continuously arguing with staff and administration.

nice of u to reduce everything me and fat said as “stuff” and “things”. very fucking civil. very fuckin respectful of our thoughts. good example to set here for us trans hooligans amiright fellas

but ur right there’s nothing much i can say more cuz i’m just repeating myself at this point. get ur shit together e621. respect our existence for once. we ain’t leaving cuz we still users of this site and we expect some sort of democracy and rights here. thank u and fuck u. trans revolution 4ever

weirdoslam said:
we ain’t gonna be silent. the first ever tru queer pride event nice of u to reduce everything me and fat said as “stuff” and “things”. very fucking civil. very fuckin respectful of our thoughts. good example to set here for us trans hooligans amiright fellas

but ur right there’s nothing much i can say more cuz i’m just repeating myself at this point. get ur shit together e621. respect our existence for once. we ain’t leaving cuz we still users of this site and we expect some sort of democracy and rights here. thank u and fuck u. trans revolution 4ever

You have been the opposite of respectful so expecting it of others is odd, fatdoggeh on the other hand actually has been respectful, civil and making valid points so I'll give them credit where it is due.

weirdoslam said:
but ur right there’s nothing much i can say more cuz i’m just repeating myself at this point. get ur shit together e621. respect our existence for once. we ain’t leaving cuz we still users of this site and we expect some sort of democracy and rights here. thank u and fuck u. trans revolution 4ever

They are not even challenging your existence. Like what they already said, it's just a namechange for a couple tags. Wtf are you even talking about?

weirdoslam said:
nice of u to reduce everything me and fat said as “stuff” and “things”.

I only do that to condense my message, plus my post wasn't directed to any one of your posts, just you and fatdoggeh in general.

Yeeeesh, so frequently see the LGBT crowd so hostile online... more so in the furry fandom. Not surprised in this drama in the least. Regardless, as long as there's aliases that still exist I honestly don't care what you are.

weirdoslam said:
at least be honest with ur intentions and just say “@all_trans_folx pls stfu”

Hey, I didn't tell you to stop, just trying to catch some attention. I'd call the same thing a shitstorm if the subject matter was anything else.

Pretty cool of you to project beliefs onto me though, when do I get sent to the gulag?

Daedius said:
Yeeeesh, so frequently see the LGBT crowd so hostile online...

They're so easy to identify based on their acting like they own the place with their overly-entitled "holier than thou" attitude, throwing the word bigot around as if they're not projecting the worst of themselves onto others.

SnowWolf said:

These were actually the very first suggestions mentioned in the thread I mentioned. It was dismissed because sex isn't gender and gender isn't sex. we can't visually determine if a character is trans based just off of their body. I know many men with breasts and a vulva, and many women with a penis. The body does not indicate the state of mind. we are tagging the BODY, not the mind. That's why we have the visibly trans tag, y'know?

(Not responding to the rest cuz. Well there's nothing to say. You say there was a discussion about it that included trans people, and I can accept that)

I am aware that gender and sex are different. That is the fundamental problem with the tagging system as a whole. By structuring the site around doing everything in your power to tag only by what you can see, you're incentivized to disregard edge cases like the disparity between sex and gender that throw a wrench in the system. But disregarding transgender and intersex people does not change the fact that the site contributes to the fetishization of those groups. In fact, it worsens it. By structuring your site in such a way that you are *unable* to acknowledge the existence of transgender people, you are signalling that we mean more to the site as a fetish than as people. That you are willing to further the erasing of marginalized groups, and contribute to the damage caused by presenting us first and foremost as a fetish. It is a broken policy down to its foundation.

And I know that it would be a monumental amount of work to restructure the site in such a way to decentralize the "tag what you see" policy. I do not care. Being treated as a human being matters more to me than the ease of operation of this website. Being given the bare minimum of respect to *acknowledge* me when you fetishize my body matters more to me than the continued existence of a porn repository. I am unwilling to take into account the difficulty of being socially conscious, because I do not care.

weirdoslam said:
sorry to tell u but ur organizing metadata system is transphobic and this is not a minor problem considering how many trans folks are in the furry community now and this would be something worth “nuking the whole site” over even tho these posts would still be here and would just need new metadata. god y’all fucks are so over dramatic

All 2 million posts would "just" need the new metadata. Considering that approving ~300 posts which is mostly hitting approve button can take hours, that project would take around a year if not more.

Also discussion of how this new metadata is put into posts consistantly and in enforceable manner, including characters without official bio and artwork made by unknown artists. Alternatively giving trans characters specific exclusion from the rule, which would exclude them and raise them above everyone else, which would be prime example "caving in" mentioned at the start of the thread.

The whole purpose of this change is to at least ease the system so it's not slurry and pornographic, that's it. Alternate solution would be to keep exsisting terms for eternity. It is still simply 0 or 1 on database, not alteration of reality.

weirdoslam said:
lol cis bigot triggered more at 11

You're seriously not doing anyone, least of all the people you claim to represent, any good with these antics. Stop adding more fuel to the fire. These tag changes aren't the end-all and be-all, they're just changes. And in my opinion still a good thing.

fatdoggeh said:
(Not responding to the rest cuz. Well there's nothing to say. You say there was a discussion about it that included trans people, and I can accept that)

I am aware that gender and sex are different. That is the fundamental problem with the tagging system as a whole. By structuring the site around doing everything in your power to tag only by what you can see, you're incentivized to disregard edge cases like the disparity between sex and gender that throw a wrench in the system. But disregarding transgender and intersex people does not change the fact that the site contributes to the fetishization of those groups. In fact, it worsens it. By structuring your site in such a way that you are *unable* to acknowledge the existence of transgender people, you are signalling that we mean more to the site as a fetish than as people. That you are willing to further the erasing of marginalized groups, and contribute to the damage caused by presenting us first and foremost as a fetish. It is a broken policy down to its foundation.

And I know that it would be a monumental amount of work to restructure the site in such a way to decentralize the "tag what you see" policy. I do not care. Being treated as a human being matters more to me than the ease of operation of this website. Being given the bare minimum of respect to *acknowledge* me when you fetishize my body matters more to me than the continued existence of a porn repository. I am unwilling to take into account the difficulty of being socially conscious, because I do not care.

The policy is not directed towards you or any other real-life transpeople and it is not meant to fetishize real-life people. It is not to change who you are or etc. The policy applies to the functionality of searching works of fiction, more specifically drawn furry artwork. Nothing more, nothing less. And so far, it is the best system in terms of searching what users are looking for.

Again, what they said:

TheHuskyK9 said:

• None of this is personal or political.

fatdoggeh said:
That is the fundamental problem with the tagging system as a whole. By structuring the site around doing everything in your power to tag only by what you can see, you're incentivized to disregard edge cases like the disparity between sex and gender that throw a wrench in the system.

Considering this is an image board, and images are a visual medium, the tagging system serves to categorize visual elements of the images. This helps people find the kind of images they're looking for. That's what it's designed to do, and it does a great job.

There apparently has been talk of extending the tagging system to include lore (non-visual) information, which could include things like transgender or age disparity (characters that look young but are actually old, or vice versa). Perhaps you could help out in those discussions.

weirdoslam said:
lol cis bigot triggered more at 11

Speaking of yourself with regards to being triggered there, Champ? 😴

Re: "It's not political"

When dealing with matters of oppression (which the fetishization of marginalized groups is an aspect of) refusing to take a side is functionally identical to siding with the oppressors. Nothing is apolitical. Choosing to ignore an issue is in itself a political stance.

I think this is a good change. I also think that most of the outrage, such as it is, will disappear in a couple of weeks once people realize how minor it is. People are, at least in my experience, resistant to change, but get over it quickly.

In the meantime, let's be nice to each other. Recognize that even if you strongly disagree with the change, even if you think they are totally wrong, the people involved are pretty much unarguably trying their best to do right by both the community and the site. A certain level of respect is called for here, and if you're unwilling or unable to meet that level of respect, you'll only do more harm than good.

Edit: That bit about respect applies no matter what side you're on, by the way.

This is a very welcome improvement, thank you.

fatdoggeh said:
Re: "It's not political"

When dealing with matters of oppression (which the fetishization of marginalized groups is an aspect of) refusing to take a side is functionally identical to siding with the oppressors. Nothing is apolitical. Choosing to ignore an issue is in itself a political stance.

No one is fetishizing anyone. The whole "fetishizing" is taken way out of proportion.
With that mentality, you only lose:
A) Don't include and you are considered racist/bigotted/*phobic/etc.
B) Include and you are fetishizing.

Just because I have a character with x traits, does not mean I am fetishizing anyone. If that were the case, is male art fetishizing males? What about female art? What if the artist is whatever is supposedly being "fetishized"?
Fetishizing would be something like pornhub titles like "hot dark chocolate babe gets cream filling".

Less shit that has to be tagged out. Makes uploading easier, thanks.

fatdoggeh said:
(Not responding to the rest cuz. Well there's nothing to say. You say there was a discussion about it that included trans people, and I can accept that)

I am aware that gender and sex are different. That is the fundamental problem with the tagging system as a whole. By structuring the site around doing everything in your power to tag only by what you can see, you're incentivized to disregard edge cases like the disparity between sex and gender that throw a wrench in the system. But disregarding transgender and intersex people does not change the fact that the site contributes to the fetishization of those groups. In fact, it worsens it. By structuring your site in such a way that you are *unable* to acknowledge the existence of transgender people, you are signalling that we mean more to the site as a fetish than as people. That you are willing to further the erasing of marginalized groups, and contribute to the damage caused by presenting us first and foremost as a fetish. It is a broken policy down to its foundation.

And I know that it would be a monumental amount of work to restructure the site in such a way to decentralize the "tag what you see" policy. I do not care. Being treated as a human being matters more to me than the ease of operation of this website. Being given the bare minimum of respect to *acknowledge* me when you fetishize my body matters more to me than the continued existence of a porn repository. I am unwilling to take into account the difficulty of being socially conscious, because I do not care.

It's true, intersex is mainly used as a fetish on this site. But so are males, aka penis, no boobs, no vagina, and identifies as male. The tag male has nothing to do with gender. I'm not trans so if I were uploaded on e6, there would be a tag with the name of my gender. But that's a coincident! Because gender has as little to do with e6 tags as my thoughts, or feelings or offscreen pikachu plush. trans people are not being disrespected, atleast not more than anyone else. A trans person has a penis, no boobs and no vagina→they get the tag male. I have a penis, no boobs and no vagina→ I get the tag male. their gender is male? Irellevant. My gender is male? equally irrelevant.

Genders do not exist on e621, so I believe it is fair to say they are not being disrespected.

Edit: wow, ninja'd af.