TaranGryph, Stalking, Drama and FA.    

By Dragoneer, 6 years ago
So, here we are.

By now, a lot of you have heard what happened. I've been debating how to address this properly, as this has been nothing short of massive. I recognize some users will go into reading this with a biased frame of mind, be it angered, curious or neutral. My aim is to clarify what we did, why we did it and what we could have done better.

Some of you may be wondering why there was such a delay in getting a response to this. The answer: I've been in the process of moving to a new state and getting caught up with a new job.

A summary of what happened:
1) Feb 6 -- Tarangryph contacted us via TT regarding a potential stalker issue.
2) Feb 13 -- In the meantime, Tarangryph created a journal warning users to beware the stalker, and listed some evidence. We deleted this journal, as we felt it was a call out journal, and we had no way to verify the given evidence (see below). The admin suggested the user block the stalker and that, if the stalker evaded that block, we'd take action.
3) Feb 14 - We responded, asking, "Do you have links to any harassing notes or comments this individual has sent you?" Tarangryph responded to the TT.
4) Feb 15 -- Qarrezel's journal is posted. All hell breaks loose. The admin handling the ticket did not yet have a chance to follow up on the ticket response.

* What We Could Have Done Better -- I will start the journal with this, as I recognize that we could have taken steps to better clarify our position to Taran. We should have clarified what information we need from users in these circumstances (comments, notes or other FA specific information) and what steps users can take to protect themselves in the meantime. Had we done that, I feel we could have reassured Taran we were there to help.

* Our Code of Conduct WILL BE UPDATED to better direct users on what actions they should take if being harassed or stalked, as well as what they can do to protect themselves, as well as what admins need from them to effectively investigate their claims.

We WANT to help, and we want to help users feel safe from harassers and stalkers. To that end, sometimes we need more information from users, and they may need more information from us. We should have been clearer in that message to Taran. At no point did we NOT want to assist her. We were more than willing to help, and were in the process of doing so when this broke out.

* In regards to Qarrezel's now infamous journal, Qarrezel NEVER ONCE contacted the admin team for clarification or to ask what's going on. Much of the journal was speculation in regards to FA's stance. AT NO TIME did I ever endorse stalking harassment as suggested by the journal. Ever.

A quote of mine regarding the admin's actions were taken grossly out of context. I was asked if I supported the admin's actions. From what I could see at the time, and from what I knew of the issue, a callout journal was removed and the admin involved suggested that the user block the stalker so we could attempt to get more evidence against them. The admin told Taran that, if the stalker did anything to avoid the block, we would take action (read: ban). The user was never blocked.

We were under the assumption at the time that, if Taran had any further issues with the user, she would contact us so we could take action against the stalker. She did, but the admin handling her ticket did not have a chance to see her response before Qarrezel posted her journal. In the ticket, Tarangryph states that Qarrezel had also filed a trouble ticket against Fredriksam for harassment. There were NO TICKETS open on this by Qarrezel, nor was there ever contact with the admins on the site regarding the issue.

* The Issue With Evidence -- The evidence of stalking was primarily pointing at actions that occurred on Deviantart.com and Flashback.org. When we are presented with information off-site we /very rarely/ take action on it, and here's why: we have NO WAY to verify the users' identities. We have to give users the benefit of the doubt. Did somebody make an account on Site X to harass the user, and implicate them in the issue? Is it legit, or just an impostor?

We have NO WAY of verifying what's going on behind the scenes.

When presented with off-site evidence, we usually make a note of it. "The user in question has shown really questionable behavior. If they bring that behavior to FA, we'll take action on it because now we've established a clear link between what happened on FA and Site X." So, until someone takes action directly linking their on-site behavior with off-site behavior, we will NOT take action on it. But once they break FA's rules and policies and we can trace that back to what they did off-site, we'll use /all/ of that information and make an appropriate judgment (up to and including perma-ban, even on first offense).

The evidence we had on FA against Fredriksam as a stalker was questionable. We could see behavior on FA that raised eyebrows, but was not enough to say "Yes, this is a stalker, no question." Hence the reason we suggested Taran block the user and to contact us if he tried anything (anything at all) to get around it.

That said, in the end, we did find evidence to support the claims against Fredriksam (and his alt account). If we had found evidence of the alt account up front, we would have banned the user immediately. The alt account was not brought to our attention until a user notified us. Had we had this information up front, we would have banned them on the spot.

We understand many of you are frustrated and upset, but we were ALWAYS willing to help from the get-go. We were always there to help. If we had been given an opportunity to respond to Tarangryph's ticket, this entire issue could have been resolved like any other issue. Instead, Qarrezel got involved and we were not able to resolve this directly with Tarangryph.

The entire site and team has spent countless hours trying to better the site the community. I, along with the rest of the team, regret that this happened the way it did. This could have gone a number of ways, but if we were allowed to resolve this directly with Tarangryph, we could have had a completely different outcome.

On a side note, admins are users of the site as well. We are all volunteers, and none of us are being paid to run the site. We're all here to help, and while you may disagree with our actions or personally dislike us, we ask that you refrain from going out of your way from attacking admins, because they are also fellow users. Verbally insulting the staff does nothing to help the situation and is still harassment.

We encourage users to ALWAYS seek out both sides of a situation before passing judgement. Seek out the facts, hear both sides and make a decision then. Putting this into a visible timeline was revealing in and of itself.
822 comments

User replies

  jade-scale

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Ridiculous...all of this.
  velux

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
lol
  hisana

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
It's all none of our business.
  jazzypanda

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Internet, everyone's serious business
  kickinthehead

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
^ this
  psychedelichues

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
It is if it shows what could happen to us.
  floxxylady

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I think it's a very professional journal. :3
  cobaltin

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I'm not gonna blame you guys, I think some people need to stop being mindless sheep and following a group of people before knowing all the details first. Sure there's some things you could have done better, but you're not robots, you're people with different mindsets. Honestly people, cool your tits.
  lightningsilver-mana

#link     Posted: 4 years ago

 
*sneaks in and ninja-likes this comment, then vanishes*
  jsfreeman

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
With this said I hope nothing like this will happen again.

However I feel I can keep dreaming. x.x
  fatkangaroo

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This is one Serious Issue
  parasoleliyoshi

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Damn... but i'll stick with fa through and through!!
  mylordslover

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Well spoken as usual, Neer.

Hopefully, even though I wish people would see it without something like this happening, that you do care about people's feedback and you DO care about people on your website.

You're a great site owner, no matter what any of the other assholes say.

#ForeverFA
  greeneyedt

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Thanks for finally posting something about this. Hopefully it will calm all this rather pointless drama down, and prevent more people from saying they plan to leave FA due to this.
  colinft

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Unfortunately, for some people, the damage has been done. The people who need to see Dragoneer's response the most probably never will because they've already packed up and left FA...and frankly (and I know I'm going to get flamed for saying this, but I truly believe this), nothing of value was lost as a result.
  greeneyedt

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
It was people sticking their noses into other peoples business that they shouldn't have been in my opinion. That's all it really comes down to for me.
  coolsilver

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
  varenvel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
True , and overeacting like rich spoiled kids when they dont get their candy in supermarket http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nojWJ6-XmeQ

1 week from now on +- ans 95% people who said they leave will be back on FA pretending nothing happened (its not first time such thing happens)
  alphazion

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Dear god that made me LOL
  varenvel

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
glad it did
  alphazion

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I hate children. X'3
  norphaeliawhispersong

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
What is Flame? Flame of Love? Flame of I love you have my furbies? Nah I'm playing *lights you on fire* How about the flame of I AGREE
  hunterwolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
^ This

They threw the baby out with the bathwater, rage quit in a overly dramatic huff...and good riddance.
  whpellic

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Or people will just say "Oh, Neer's just lying to cover his ass" or "too little, too late!".

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
  dasaod

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
For better or worse, I think you may have a point there. Maybe this isn't all bad, after all...
  hihey9989

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
+1 internets for speaking the truth
  emikochan

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Hah, no flames here, you're 100% right. I hope more people that jump to conclusions without getting the full info leave, would make FA a better place.
  dracosblackwing

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Those people didn't need to see this post. They already were at the point where anything could have happened and they would have left. I don't want to say "good riddance" to them, but... since I'm pretty sure someone could have posted "Dragoneer is stopping me from enjoying my sandwich" as a journal and gotten at least 10 people offended, maybe it was just a good thing they moved on to something else.

As for saying "Nothing of value was lost as a result"?

The fact that you wasted your time setting out flame bait like that makes me thing perhaps you should move on with the rest of the Lemmings. (I'm probably gonna get flamed for saying that.) :P
  rtdragon

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Probably not though this might be a good thing considering there are plenty of other aspiring artists who are mature on here.
  colinft

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I think it's funny you say I'm wasting my time saying eight words in response to a comment thanking Dragoneer for posting this journal. As I'm sure you've read for yourself, there are others who have invested far more time than me on this matter. (Whether or not this effort is "wasted" is up to interpretation, but I digress...)

But if, because of that, you really want me to leave FA, I have only six words for you:

TOUGH. TITTAH. I'm not leaving FA.
  charkonian

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
As I thought, this was all a big misunderstanding.
  psychotropic

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Not really a "misunderstanding" since the offender in the stalking incident really was conducting threatening behavior.

I can see why FA can't really touch the situation though.
  baphnedia

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Bleh, sounds like a helluva weekend. :/
  twitchthedragon

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I actually never seen/heard any of this from anyone i watch are am friends with
  twitchthedragon

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
or am*
  drazeon

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
If they knew, what good friends you have for not spreading drama.
  hawaiianrain

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Kinda reminds me of the Vorn issue years ago...
  baddemona

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
My thoughts exactly.
  voreo

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Hopefully all this subsides, but very very well written response on the issue *gives cookie* ^.=.^
  sonicfox

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Glad I don't pay attention to "F FA" Journals.
  j-raz

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Huh. I'll admit, the only reason I knew that there was anything weird going on was a whole bunch of people mentioning in their journals that the reason they were opening Weasyl accounts wasn't because of "the drama." So confused. And now I have the circumstances to go with it.
  umbrii

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
haha, same here x3 I saw a couple journals with people talking about the drama but no one actually participating in it so I had to go look around to find out what happened.
  malexwolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Glad to hear your side of it, people take things out of context so easily around here. There's an abundance of pitchforks and torches that really needs dousing.
  lionus

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
"...abundance of pitchforks and torches...." I like that.
  williamca

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I knew the admins were doing what was right by not acting on offsite evidence, I mean when he made an obvious appearance in her journal again he was swiftly banned due to it happening onsite.

With all the harassment happening off site it's like people saying someone should be banned off FA because they got suspended on Youtube for harassing comments or spamming troll links on Youtube videos. Aka; blacklist someone who was bad on one site, from this site.

As you said though verifying what is happening offsite is someone on here is a very hard to distinguish identities thing. It's like someone going around to streams under persons name and harassing.
- If the person with that name was suspended from a site and they had nothing to do with it, meaning someone was impersonating them it would look bad on the admins. Being this was an ex it would be understandable if Tarangryph was trying to appear as her ex to get him off FA. (not what happened but a possibility.

- If the admins take time to figure out what is going on and wait for something to happen on site then people jump at the admins still for being too slow. Claiming there is plenty of evidence, despite it being all offsite and easily forged with the name.

Though resolved people will hold their grudges as always. People claimed the ticket took way too long...but during this time I still question why taran didn't seek police enforcement and have an injunction placed considering the harassment and claims of rape/bodily harm.
  synthariadesire

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
This is what I had been thinking on the lines of all along.
  williamca

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Really though, both sides did wrongs. Neither side is fully right. Both sides could have done something more.
  psybird

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I understand the validity of you comment and respect it, but you do know that dragoneer and/ or admins HAVE banned others for off-site conduct?
  williamca

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I do and this is an old comment too.

I KNOW TOO MUCH.
  psybird

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
oh whoops, sorry, didnt check the date
  williamca

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
NECRO! >:I Nah it's fine <3
  hypr

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Yea all sides of the story could be helpful, though I was away this past weekend but I think those quitting FA took too much of a drastic action without realizing that coincidentally that Weasyl opened up to the masses.

But in all seriousness listen to both sides of the story before passing judgment
  jcore5

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
well what fun more gun jumpping >.> i just knew why poeple did it
  paper-wings

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
While I do not think everything was handled perfectly on the admin side, there was certainly no malicious intent and both sides were doing what they thought was best. Obviously there was some misunderstanding and it blew up into an issue. What matters to me is that everyone was working with the best intentions. People fuck up, it happens, and the problem was resolved.

I'm not sure posting this journal was the best idea, since it resparks the flame and you've already explained yourself...but, I'm happy to hear there will be instructions on how to deal with this in the future so this doesn't happen again, and the effort is much appreciated. I think everyone learned from this.

  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I do not blame Tarangryph whatsoever. They were patient with us.
  paper-wings

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I hope it didn't seem I was implying that, it was just an unfortunate circumstance all around.
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
No, it didn't. I'm just stating that in general.
  moonstone

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
You do all you can I can speak for that since I had an offline harassment issue and you helped me with that to the best you could and IF they came back to bug me you gave me proper citings to do for next "steps" from there I thank you very much for that.
  ginzburg

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
will there be any actions taken against Qarrezel for her journal and starting this attack against fa?
  zuckerdachs

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
She didn't do anything wrong. She was airing a grievance about how something was handled, explained why she was leaving and where she was going, but she didn't call for other people to do anything.
  exkhaniber

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
...all hell breaks loose


To put it mildly.
  shadow4ever14

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
^This.
  velvet204

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
It wouldn't be the furry fandom without random drama! XD
  mushussu

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
lol this XD
  leonardliono

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This was one big issue for FA but it does seem to me that with a certain other art site recently going into an open beta that many decided to take those recent happenings as an excuse to talk about FA not being a good site and reasons for why they might leave FA and go to that new art site that recently went to open beta, and so people greatly helped spread info and maybe some false stuff about what happened when talking about leaving FA for that other art site. Plus I think many here on FA just like to find reasons to be negative at FA and or Dragoneer.
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This is not about Weasyl. Let's just leave it out of the equation.
  leonardliono

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Ok, but now I also will state that I think another problem with what happened recently is that a few seem to think or did at the time that you and the other admins should be perfect all the time. And I think it is very unfortunate that people complained enough to make an admin you said was the best step down because of one imperfection in handling something.
  mrskunk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Let it be known that I have only heard of this drama today and I choose to stay out of it. One thing I see that should concern you though, now that people have gotten a taste of Weayl's UI, FA may just have a problem. I set up a account on Weasyl to spread demographics to improve my business. I hate to say it but, it has to be said, Weasyl's UI is much better made, has a lot more options and is a lot easier to use. That alone can make FA go the way of My Space or even worse...the way of the dodo. I recommend that you might consider if you have not already, a complete and total overhaul of FA's UI instead of band-aiding it. It's been plagued with problems from Day 1.
  eternalundeath

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
A UI overhaul has been on the burner for well over a year now, but s swiftly becoming FA's 'Duke Nukem: Forever'
  eternalundeath

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
*is
  mrskunk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
That's good that a new UI is in the works. One thing that would help is looking at all other art sites and see what works and what does not. Then combine all the best parts to make a new UI. Weasyl seems to already have done that but, now is the chance for FA to shine if the staff hops to it. Another thing to think about when making the new UI is what makes it easier for the user and, not so much on the programmer. FA was built on the ease of use more so on the programmers and not the artist that use it. I could go on all night on how to improve FA but, I need to go to bed sometime this century. This could be a make or breaking point for FA. Let's hope that they make it.
  emikochan

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
hehe true, though at least being 2nd means you can take the good stuff (that streams section on the front page is so awesome and relevant to the changing face of art)
  zercompf-sanika

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
uhhh the UI overhaul's been in the works for well over 4 years. as far as analogies go it's well past DNF and moving onto the second coming of christ.
  amoryllis

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
well maybe with weasyl out they'll take it off the burner? *gryphgrins*
  fivel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
that was probably the longest sentence i have ever read.
  mylordslover

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
^^This

The English major inside of me is crying.
  leonardliono

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
XD I know, but I just sometimes am lazy about perfect grammer when it comes to making comments containing deep thoughts of mine.
  doodles

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Well, that thought was about as deep as a coat of enamel. Next time, pay attention to the grammar. it might give you enough time to go "What the hell was I thinking?" and stop before you go any further.
  leonardliono

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Sorry, I sometimes upload thoughts I have into one big sentence and when making comments I often don't take the time to break up the sentence like I would do if I was stating my thoughts on something like a journal.
  fivel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
dont worry.. i do that too.
  sierraracs

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Good golly, I was trying to figure out why I was re-reading that post over and over again with nothing sinking in. When I added the periods I could move on. Thanks for pointing it out.
  leonardliono

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Maybe I am just so used to reading comments on the internet with much worse grammar than that, but reading again my reply there, I don't think it is so bad that one has to read it over and over again to understand it.
  sierraracs

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I was a very long sentence and I honestly couldn't follow the flow of it. Once I mentally put in the periods it flowed. It was my ability not to follow what you were saying. My brain just could not process what you where sharing. What you wrote was fine, it was my inability to read it as written that I needed the help with.
  datbadger

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I have to re-read everything you've posted above. Multiple times.
Other posters making these same mistakes online does not equal an excuse if you're aware that you do this.

Just something to work on.
  naiwi11

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
But it was two sentences! 8D

//shot
  rtdragon

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
You do know that site is also a general art site.
  leonardliono

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Yes I do, however I have not yet encountered anyone on that other site yet who is not a furry or furry fan.
  stagish

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
nice work man. I support you but I think the rest need to follow your example for good relations between user's and admins. I have nothing against FA or anyone but I REALLY HATE STALKERS AND TROLLS AND DRAMA LLAMA's
  mason5500

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I will slap their shit.
  yamatoiouko

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
To be fair, that IS what your icon threatens to do.
  mason5500

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I know right? I have the legal right/obligation to be a slapper of shit xD
  sierraracs

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Ewwwwwwww. Sorry man, I highly doubt I am the only one thinking just how wrong that sentence is... Although I am sure there is an artist that might draw that though.

I'm going to go and hide now.
  mason5500

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I use shit in a figurative context :v
  preston

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
The image, however, of you LITERALLY slapping someone's shit is hilarious.
  alphazion

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Or slapping someone WITH shit. It's an effective threat.
  sierraracs

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I knew that, I was just being a goofy grey muzzle. Just trying to bring a little levity to the thread. I should have said I was joking.
  preston

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Get's the point across real quick, eh?
  alphazion

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
  lucashoal

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
fucking SergalGnomes.
  moredena

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
It is nice to see your side of it.
  shorty-antics-27

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
THANK YOU.
  marblesbravetail

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Been with you on this from the start and gotta say I honestly think you, and the admin team, did the right thing in this situation.

I am very thankful to have FA, thank you guys for what you do!
  taasla

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
It's good to see you guys acknowledge what you could have done to make the victim feel safer while you guys worked on the issue.
  Comment hidden by its owner
  alwowpal

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I honestly have no idea what happened and I don't care. ^.^
  firestormsix

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Now if all those who were carrying gas cans did not walk towards the fire in Qarrezel's Journal, then run away to Jump-Ship like they all claimed to do, But instead stopped long enough to get a better understanding on what really happened here like you said, it would not have been the explosion it ended up as. People have a bad habit of doing that in the furry community. You ( and the other admins) did the right as you said above, but others just did not give it a closer look and exploded it.
  dineegla

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I agree. But also the fact that another website which just happened to come out of beta and opened up to everyone became the impetus for leaving. It became a linchpin for others to say, "F-you FA. I now have another place to go." I am NOT blaming the other website; it was just unfortunate timing all around.

This became a knee-jerk reaction that those who already have issues with FA were able to "defect." And the fact of the matter is, the same problems could easily be there, too.

This whole issue just became a massive bomb in many levels.
  firestormsix

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
it did become a chain-reaction sort of, the incident gave people a reason and leverage to rage-quit FA and go to a site that just happened to come out of Bata mode. ( just coincendence of timing) I have been on Weasyl since it started, but that don't mean im leaving FA, especially using the drama incident as leverage to go do so. Its immature to do that.
  dineegla

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Me too. Both my hubby and I will stay here and visit W to hopefully meet new people. That's why I went in the first place. And of course to meet you and take pictures of said fursuiter at the cons!
  lionus

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
What? Do you mean running away from home when you can’t get your own way is not a mature act?!

Whaaaaaaa!
  firestormsix

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Thats exactly what its like. *lol :P
  synthariadesire

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
It also doesn't help that it was said by someone many admire. In this case I think the popularity flamed that fire from the start quite a bit. Not that it's strictly Qarrelzels fault that it played a role in it, but the word got out to more users than it would have before, and thus created a larger radius for chaos.

But I side with you completely. I wish people had taken time to learn what was going on and think about it logically. (also not just from an emotional/projected victimization standpoint since that seemed to happen quite a bit this time.)
  lostcat461

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Can we sell "Dragoneer was Right" and "Quarrazel was Right" t-shirts?
  Comment hidden by its owner
  lostcat461

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Edit that note to say "copywrite pending" then.
  wulfywaffle

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Copyright pending!*
  stigmata

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Respect
  freya-darkfire

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I'll admit I disagree with some things you guys have done, but I AM NOT ENTITLED to see what I want on the site since I've never given anything to better it. I would love to be able to donate something here and there, but I'm close to losing my house because of inflated property values.
That said, this whole situation was indeed blown out of proportion by somebody who went "white knight" and jumped in to defend the user in the form of directly attacking the admins. I also heard the admin who was involved in this left because of this incident, is that true?
I really hope this can be resolved completely soon.
  keio

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
The admin who handled the issue did step down yes.
  sierraracs

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I am going to regret this... Why should they? There were things that could have been done better on both sides. If every time someone did something that was perceived to be wrong lost their position there would be very few people left to make decisions. I will bet that the admin that handled the ticket has more experience now on how to properly handle this situation than the majority of us ever will. It will be highly doubtful something like this is going to slip by on their watch ever again. I want them right where they are. We are creatures that can learn from our experiences, be it positive or negative. The admin learned a very hard lesson in a very hard way. They will be tougher and stronger and, I believe, better able to serve the needs of the fandom that use this site.
  summercat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
The admin in question felt it was best, despite my protests to the contrary. :/

  sierraracs

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I didn't realize they stepped down. If you know the person please share my comment with them. I honestly feel they will be a better person for this experience in the long run.
  spottycat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Who can blame them after seeing how the community reacted.
I wouldn't want to bother anymore either.
  summercat

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
There are times, especially when I'm smack dab in the middle of the shitstorm in a teacup, I wonder why I bother.

Then people poke me with problems and I go solve them. Then I remember why.
  keio

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
It was the admins decision to step down (despite the rest of us going 'no, stay!'), you would have to speak with them to find out why
  sierraracs

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I didn't realize they stepped down. Cruddy.
  ginzburg

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
very sad =(
  devinotter

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I knew it was all a big misunderstanding. This why I'm glad I don't give into drama. Can't deny the fact though that a bunch of users left the site already over all of this....damn.
  dixielandoe

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Well, you know I'm not going anywhere. Best wishes; try not to let this stress you out too much. ^^
  thorndyke

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
#laughingalonewithsalad
  summercat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
What type of lettuce? And any dressing? I... might ask for some. >_>
  doodles

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Is it... BUTTER LETTUCE? (Locally grown?)
  summercat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
>:|
  aurion-magnus

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Now that's something I can poop to*shot*
  lonewolf666

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
basically, Qarrezel and friends are just butthurt. they need to get over it
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Their friend was being stalked, and threatened with rape. That's not butthurt, it's an appropriate response.
  lonewolf666

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
to take it out on the website and storming off? having people following them without knowing everything? that's butthurt
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
She felt they weren't doing anything. It is their first amendment right to complain, whether right or wrong, and certainly to leave.
  junowolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This website is not downtown USA, it is a private site, and as such it has private rules. Constitution need not apply. Read the ToS.
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I'm I'm pretty sure private organisations and individuals have to follow the constitution as well. And the ToS says nothing about complaining, or leaving.
  junowolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
No they do not lol. If I make a website that says only men can join, guess what, only men can join. Or any qualifier. Private entities do not have to follow the constitution, otherwise the Boy scouts couldn't be the BOY Scouts and they couldn't ban gays.

Get it?
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Yes, that's freedom of association. However you may not penalise those men for wht they say. They would then have the right to sue you. I think. I'm not positive.
  summercat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Actually, no. Private sites hosted in the US must follow US Laws, but things such as the Bill of Rights... refer tot he government. Not private entities.

For instance, you can say whatever you like (Up to a point, obscenity laws, whole nother topic) in a public square, but not inside a restaurant or store. The Government may not censure you for free speech, but private entities can refuse to support you, or supply the use of their space (be it physical or digital) for those purposes.
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Plus. THE RULES DON'T SAY YOU CAN'T COMPLAIN!!!
  junowolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
You can set whatever standards of speech you want on a private site. It's private.
  junowolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
There is a difference between complaining and starting a lynch mob.
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
They didn't intend to start a lynch mob I'm sure.
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Well, if anyone restricts peoples' speech, then in my opinon they are a jerk, and are a bad person.
  junowolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
You must hate YouTube then.
  summercat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
And people who shout 'Fire!' in a crowded theater don't intend to start a panic, either.
  junowolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
The journal that started the whole mess was indeed intended to do so, or at least it was known that that would happen.
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Oh, becuase of no cursing? That doesn't bother me so much. It's restricting speech such as discussion, complaints, comments, etcetera that bothers me.
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I get that. But if the journal was breaking the rules, why wasn't it removed?
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Then why wasn't it taken down?
  summercat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
A discussion is one thing.

Anything that ends up as a call to arms is another.
  junowolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
It probably wasn't flagged/ticketed.
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
If it was a call to arms, why was it left up?

Never mind, all this arguing is making me depressed.
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I'm sure the admins noticed anyway.
  summercat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Oh. We've switched which journals we're talking about. Okay then -

We allow people to bitch about the site via journal. We don't allow people to attack other people via journal.

  junowolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I would assume it is still up to provide the other side to this whole thing. That and Qarrezel would use the deletion as some kind of ammo for something I'm sure. Pretty much says so at the bottom of the journal.
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Thanks for clarifying that.
  nicthalon

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
You can actually penalize people for what they say. You have the right to say what you want, but you may have to face consequences if you say the wrong thing in the wrong place.
  kiboe

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
"I'm I'm pretty sure private organisations and individuals have to follow the constitution as well"

then why am i not allowed to bring my pocket knife or gun to work?

your argument is flawed
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Then why aren't corporations allowed to restrict their employees political activities?
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Yeah, like shouting fire in a crowded theatre. But this was not that.
  nicthalon

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I can't remember what city, but there is a city in the US that has made it a fineable (sp?) offense to yell obscenities in public areas. You can say anything you want in a conversational tone, but the minute you start yelling "Fuck you!"'s across the street, they can ticket you and fine you.
  volteer133

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
What about sites that are not located within the US? like anything with a .eu?
Your understanding of "the constitution" is as limited as everyone else's it seems; the internet isn't just the united states, it is ALL countries that have made a connection through satellite or data cable. The united states government doesn't have the capability to enforce its constitution on the internet, nor is it allowed to: if they tried to regulate the WHOLE internet, it would cause a worldwide outrage and pretty much would cut off all communication of the US and other countries.
The internet is anarchy, and private sites range from dictatorships to monarchies and small bureaucracies. Freedom of speech isn't true, kids' game sites that are privately owned will censor "bad words; freedom of the press means that the government can't hide all of it's secrets forever, but if the internet didn't ANYONE could steal information; freedom of religion is null because there are sites like christian mingle where only Heterosexual Christians are allowed.

I suggest you end your argument here or take it to notes instead. And next time you pull something like "freedom of speech" on a privately owned and not profiting organization, remember that it's a load of bull and makes everyone involved look dumb.
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
But FA is in the US. As such, other countries are outside the scope of my argument. And even if it doesn't currently, organisations SHOULD be required to have the same standards of freedom. That's all, I'm going back to enjoying artwork now.
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Yeah, pretty sure when someone eventually challenges that law, it'll get found unconstitutional.
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  purplepardus

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
^this
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Thanks. I just feel like this whole thing that happened was horrible.
  purplepardus

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Indeed i feel they jumped the gun but they have every right to leave.
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
no only Qarrezel felt that. Tar was in contact with the admins and Qar decided to stick her nose in like a bitch and cause more drama without knowing wtf was going on. And then they lied about Qar sending in a stalking ticket of her own to try and make it seem bigger than it was.

if it was TAR who was the one posting the giant rage journal...i wouldnt he saying anything but Gar had no knowledge other than what Tar said (before ahe even really knew what was happening i might add) and she took that and blew it out of proportion to get attention.

She sells suits so i wouldnt be surprised if her journal was just a publicity stunt to tey to get more followers.

regardless I hope she stays gone. FA is better off without idiots like her.
  kilwillae

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Qarezzel made Taran's fursuit. The stalker contacted Q to try and get Tar's home address. Q knew a lot more about the situation than anyone else.
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
That doesnt give her the right to lie, twist the admins words, and spew garbage about the admins all to start some crusade.

The fact remains that if Qer had minded her own business the situation could have been resolved MUCH faster and with way less drama.
  kilwillae

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Taren had already left, and the admins barely knew what was going on UNTIL Q posted her journal. Honestly, with FA admins' record of ignoring harrassment and stalking, this was a long time coming.
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I agree.
  ashbet

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Yeah, if some creeper contacted ME to try to find out the home address of someone they were stalking, I would hope that "minding my own business" would be the last thing on my mind -- I'd be concerned for the safety of the person being stalked, and I'd be trying to make sure that something got done about it.

Q didn't "poke her nose in," she was directly involved because the stalker contacted her to attempt to get T's address.

I do think it's important to give the admins a little time to handle an issue, but when someone is being stalked and feels unsafe, it's very important for them to feel like their community has their back, and that the admins are going to look into the issue thoroughly, and that their safety is a paramount concern.

This didn't happen in this particular case, which is why there was so much upset about it.

I'm glad that Dragoneer has posted an explanation, but I do think that a vocal, stronger stance against stalking is important on a forward-going basis.
  kuntos

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
it's also having whiteknights begin their "crusades"
  dusk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Nicely said, thank you. Cheery. It's nice to see that not everyone is buying into the pacifying game here.
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Well, I'm just pissed that someone would call TarenGryph butthurt. Only a complete asshole could say that after all this.
  dusk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I know. It's lame. that attitude is why I'm finished with FA after tonight.
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Wait, you're leaving?
  summercat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I don't think anyone is calling Taren butthurt.
  takenakasan

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
*Ahem* Read up a smidge where lone_wolf_666 says Qarrazel and Taren butthurt directly. Because y'know, anyone dealing with a stalker is just that, right?
  summercat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
No, I see Qarrazel and friends. Which... Mmm. Can I say it? Yes. I can say that Qarrazel and most people who agreed with him became butthurt.

TAREN had a legitimate issue we were in the process of trying to get resolved. At no point can I say her issue was butthurt, without being

A) An ass
B) A dick
C) jerk
D) etc, etc, etc.

  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Oh, OK. I probably misread something then.
  swampwulf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
How DARE people support the victim.
Those bastards.
  summercat

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Aside from causing an even larger issue, there was nothing to support yet. We do, um, need evidence, and time to act on it, y'know.
  synwolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Q and Taren -are- friends, sooooo ... if she didn't also mean Taren, she DEFINITELY needed to clarify that. And "Qarrazel and friends" isn't even right, anyway, as most of the people who decided to jump ship with her and who were agreeing with her were just watchers for the most part. I'd venture to say that a VERY small portion of those supporting her (myself among them, I'm not ashamed to say) were actual friends of Q. Watchers =/= friends.
  summercat

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I think that would be analyzing it a bit too much. I originally took "Q and friends" to mean everyone who wasn't the primary party (Taran) who decided to get involved.
  amoryllis

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I'm pretty sure Q is female :P
  summercat

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Can't say how that bears upon the discussion, to be honest :v
  amoryllis

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
*shrugs* Just sayin'.
  synwolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
It's not over-analyzing something to take what someone says at exact face value. And taken at face value, the ENTIRETY of Lone's initial comment was way off and translates as pretty damn insensitive.

Just because you took her words one way, doesn't mean EVERYONE should be expected to translate her words the exact same way. Pretty crass to presume that those who didn't come to the exact same conclusion are "analyzing it a bit too much". =/
  shadowfire

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Dear god
  synwolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
LOL, wow, I have to now kindly tell you to, uh ... piss off, cuz, like ... your lack of situational understanding (it's abundantly clear you don't know jack shit about what happened and didn't even bother to research before opening your mouth), combined with your obvious need to brown-nose as hard as you possibly can leaves me with no real desire to further watch you. Unwatched as HARD as humanly possible.

As an aside, I find your choice to suddenly start tonguing admin asshole particularly amusing, given the sheer amount of "butthurt", as you call it, you've blithely spewed about in the past, yourself. Pot and kettle much?
  lonewolf666

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
ouch. that unwatch hurt me SO bad! I don't think I can live with myself anymore! maybe I should leave FA!
  amoryllis

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Go for it?
  fayyaislin

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I understand how this can potentially be a life ruining thing DIRECTLY to the victim. But for the dramawhores that are leaving FA because of this, grow the fuck up. I'm sorry. I know it's sad. I know it really sucks. But come on guys. It's not middle school.
  fivel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
i like how it goes from "a mod hadn't handled the issue fast enough" to "DRAGONEER SUPPORTS STALKING AND DOESNT GIVE A CRAP ABOUT PEOPLES IRL SAFETY"
i don't know, i just don't think FA should act like police for IRL issues. i think these situations need to be handled better, but there comes a point where you need to at least try blocking someone, something that apparently was something they didnt even try on this site.
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
People are amazingly quick to judge/accuse/jump to conclusions with the smallest bits of information w/o even hearing all the sides of things. This is how we get such massive Drama bombs on this site cause people run with the smallest info and explode it out of proportion.

  fivel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
we're all guilty of it, but in this case i think it's the fact that a lot of people seem to have such extreme hatred towards dragoneer and this site.. yet i'm sure most of them haven't actually had these problems themselves, just "heard about it, like on a journal or something".
i haven't had any problems with this site other than i think it can be way too slow at times. i say if those people needed something this minuscule to happen to justify leaving FA, then don't let the door hit ya on the way out.
i think people these days just.. can't be satisfied with ANYTHING!
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Eyup, word of mouth hatred. Many folks just getting their panties in a knot because they heard of shit elsewhere but have little factual evidence to substantiate their paranoid aggressions :< tis sad.
  dasaod

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
"i haven't had any problems with this site other than i think it can be way too slow at times."

This. I've been on here for years now, and never had any problems with the admins or the site itself. ( I actually like how simple and fast the site is, compared to dA, in example. ) That ought to count for something, for a site that's essentially free to use.
  thefallenwind

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This right here. I really wish people (from all sides, not just one side or the other) would seek to understand first instead of doing exactly what you pointed out. Hear all sides and acquire information from all sides, weigh it with logic and reason (not emotion) THEN come to a conclusion.
  sciggles

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
  wulfywaffle

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Bam. On point. Right. There.
  renzey

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Amen.
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Its because Neer is an admin. one of the unwritten rules of life on the internet (followed only by the most retarded of people) is "its always the admins fault". The bitch (im not talking about tar im talking about qar. Tar is a victim with a right to be mad, qar is a bitch) had nobody to blame and get a reaction from except the administration on FA, so in typical dramawhore fassion, she did.
  coolsilver

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Being Weasyl just was put into an open beta, I would have in time made an account anyway. I've put my feedback into things. What is done is done and they are working to prevent issues like this. Although they can only try to take care of issues before a third party makes a big deal out of something that was being handled. I know others want to help and call attention to the issue hoping it will fix it faster. Fanning the flames only feeds it more oxygen and that just burns down the house faster. See wildfires as an example of wind and fire. So yea thanks for that. I hope everyone has learned a lesson.
  coolsilver

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Also I'm not leaving FA for another site.
  amoryllis

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I found out Weasyl's in open beta BECAUSE of the issue, but I didn't make an account so I could leave FA, that would be silly, especially now that I'm finally established X3
  wulfywaffle

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Huh... Alright.
  corwinenguerrand

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Although I understand how this situation could be viewed erroneously as "administrative incompetence", I honestly cannot wrap my head around why and how this got so out of control and caused so much damage.
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Because a 3rd party decided to intervene and interpret what was going on by themselves, posted a journal about the situation without having first hand information or having even contacted staff. They made assumptions, and instead of letting us work with the user directly, posted a journal and things got grossly out of hand. Simple as that.

We did a ticket search for the users involved, re-examined the timeline. That's when we noticed the original journal -vs- when Tarangryph responded to the ticket. The admin handling the issue was out at the time, and didn't have a chance to follow up before this exploded.
  mistywolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This whole situation really seemed to have gotten out of hand. I understand having several DAYS pass between processing of the trouble tickets seems to have been a contributor to the situation, but I also recognize FA only has so many admins and may need more support to handle these things, and perhaps a better way to prioritize concerns in Trouble Tickets. Of course I know that prioritization system would be quickly abused, but it might be worthwhile to look into.

as for harassment outside of the frame of FA, I don't understand what they expected FA to do about it.each site will have to address the issue individually. Block the user on all sites that you share accounts. report to all sites where harassment has occurred. go on about your day. big Whoop Dee Do.

there was really no reason for this situation to get this far, I feel it was really less poor handling on the part of FA as it was poor handling on the part of the person who felt they were being harassed. They never blocked the harasser, the one thing in their own power to stop the harassment. They posted a journal as a "warning", but that warning wouldn't even be necessary if they had taken proper action against the harasser that would result in the harassers ban from the subsequent sites where the harassment occurred.

All FA Users have a right to feel safe with their accounts, but they don't have a right to go stirring up drama without following due process to handle the situation before it even becomes drama.
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  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Deleted from the users, but not from the admins however. Deleted Journals are still viewable by admins so they can investigate things. FA wouldn't give people that ability to delete their words w/o being able to know what they said.
  Comment hidden by its owner
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
the site does store deleted submissions/journals, it was stated beforehand that the FA staff evidenced the journal after it was deleted because they don't just get rid of it forever. Plus it's also how they make peoples galleries come back in the event of hacks and what not.

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  williamca

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
>harassing them
I sent one note. All of which contains evidence of you stalking, harassing, making alternate accounts, drama mongloring, impersonating, so on and so forth. Enjoy your week long Weasyl ban.
Abuse report filed for ban evasion.
  eternalundeath

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
+1
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
pwned
  Comment hidden by its owner
  wuvvumsoc

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
You came out of nowhere knowing I was friends with Donro to send me a message essentially telling me to be wary of him. I never participated in any of Donro's drama and I didn't really feel like being a part of it but you wanted to drag me in anyways.

I never even talked to you before and yet you talked about being concerned because I was Veck's friend. All I was going to say is that if you kept up these shenanigans I was going to block you, because I didn't need to be a part of this at all. Instead I found that you had already unwatched me and blocked me, likely because you assumed I was not going to be "on your side."

In fact I don't even think you wanted to have anything to do with me or watching my art. I don't think you even gave a shit about my well being. You're just in this petty internet war with Donro and trying to turn away all the "friends" you can when we're pretty casual acquaintances. None of your motives were pure; why would you warn me about danger and then block me if you didn't think that any of your activity was suspicious?
  williamca

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
If you don't want to be involved that's all you had to say.

As for having you blocked you clearly aren't and haven't been if you are responding. Just sayin'
  wuvvumsoc

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
That link is pretty immature. You blocked me when I first tried to respond, warning you not to bring this kind of crap to my door.

To be honest I had no strong feelings about what went on between you and Donro and it wasn't my business. We could have had a normal relationship and interaction but you chose to drag this drama to my feet, and then block and unwatch me. You've burned your bridge.
  williamca

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
That link is meant to be an example of a forged block. Pretty simple. Thus the obvious account name.

Also no we couldn't have. The moment I commissioned you for the icon and it was finished it would have went down with Donro. I did unwatch you though!

Is there a point to continue, other than trying to call me out?
  wuvvumsoc

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I know what the link is, I just didn't see it as necessary. And you did block me when all I was going to say is if you tried to start this drama I was going to block you. Funny how that works out.

I have a feeling you never really wanted to commission me. I'm pretty sure if something when down between me and Donro over commissions I would just tell him to cool it and block him. The point I was trying to make is I don't think you are sincere with your warnings. You don't care about my well being, you just wanted me to get involved with your spat with Donro when I wasn't going to be part of it. Before I only heard about you in passing and had no strong feelings, but you decided to make me a part of something I had nothing to do with.
  williamca

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Oh no as I said "it was a warning" it wasn't meant to start anything. You take it or leave it. That's your choice as I said above.

I did want to commission you. Though honestly not quite sure how well you could have handled an animated icon of a weapon and comedic firing so I had to choose someone more suitable. Nothing against you. Nor anything to do with Donro/Monglor there.

As I said though you don't have to be involved. In releasing the note you quite clearly wanted to take his side though and cause trouble. There's really no point to this is there?
  wuvvumsoc

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I released the note because you blocked me and I didn't trust your motives after that. I also found it suspicious that you chose to make it the first interaction with me after you watched me that you wanted to tell me about this stuff I didn't want to be a part of. Is that how you introduce yourself to people by compiling a warning note about others?

I gave the note to Donro because it was about him. He's the one who chose to make of it what he would. But honestly I wanted to call you out here because you're being so dishonest and insincere, because I think you don't really care about what I had to say about it. You preemptively blocked me and that should say something. You sent me a message about someone else and that should say something. I didn't even know what to make of half those screenshots cause they were just lulz threads and stuff.

It felt out of no-where given how I didn't really do anything with Donro except talk to him on skype and draw some pictures and stuff. Wouldn't it make you feel antsy if someone came to you, told you not to trust someone, and then blocked you before you could even say something about it?
  williamca

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I've had that circumstance in the past just lead me to believe the two had a bad past. Best thing to do is let it be known you don't want to be involved. . I haven't had you blocked though as I said. Only person I have blocked is every donro/monglor alternate account that pops up.
  fancyskunk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Ever? Not even for when users post journals outlining illegal activities? Not even when users post journals to defame one another? Journal removal is not going to stop until people stop posting journals which break site polices. That said, we are looking to improve our documentation of removed journals.
  williamca

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Amen.
  lunaticmoth

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Still unhappy with FA's response to the issue, but at least you finally did something about it, and will do better in the future.

I feel you (FA in general, not you specifically) spent way too much time trying to justify and defend FA's actions, not enough actually addressing everyone's concerns.

Victims are entitled to their outbursts and are no less victims because there might have been a more "responsible" way for them to react. They are often too terrified to think clearly, and punishing them for acting out of fear--BEFORE any action is taken against the accused perpetrator--is counterproductive. You should have waited until you had more information on the stalker before you took her call-out journal down, and you should have asked her to take it down and explained why before you removed it yourself. You acted VERY fast to punish her, while you saw fit to give her stalker the "benefit of the doubt" and took much longer to deal with him. I hope you see now why this was harmful.

A better response, given your timeline, would have been to wait for the evidence of stalking to come through (or not) and take action on THAT issue (or not) BEFORE acting on the victim's relatively small transgression. Keep in mind that you were weighing the damage done by potential drama stirred up by the journal against what might be potentially life-threatening harassment against the user. One will fade, and the other can only escalate. You can still take issue with the call-out journal, that's fair, but do so in a way that makes ethical sense given the situation at hand. Respond to her concerns first, then ask her to remove the journal and explain why. That way, it's clear you're not shutting anyone down, are dealing with user concerns, but are still enforcing your rules (as you have every right to do).
  cheery314

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This^
  raytlin

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Yes, they could have done all of what you said and it would have done a lot to prevent this situation. But the issue wasn't about giving the stalker the "benefit of the doubt" and not the victim. The issue was that it seemed like the journal was a "call out" journal, which is against the site rules. So basically it was a situation in which a person had very clearly broke the rules by posting that kind of journal in order to draw attention to another user who only -may- have broken the site rules (and perhaps some laws). The former needed no investigation, the journal was right there, the second needed investigation to prove that the allegations were true.

In hindsight they probably should have waited to take down the journal, but that's because only now do we know that the journal was the truth. As they say, hindsight is 20/20.
  lunaticmoth

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I think that given the situation surrounding the journal, it would have been as reasonable to hold off on taking action against it as it would have been to hold off taking action against the accused stalker, even though the violation seemed more blatant at the time. It would have done very little harm to leave the journal up long enough to gather the necessary evidence, given the nature of the claim. If the claim turned out to be false, that would have become evident pretty quickly.

I don't think this is a case where the admins simply could not have forseen the results of their actions or could not have imagined that patience with the accuser would yield better results. I do think they did what they thought was right at the time. However, in the future, I hope they are more inclined to carefully consider immediately silencing someone who claims to be at-risk from another site member, before actually doing it. If the end result, rather than the exact process, is more important to the admins (and I assume it is), sensitive situations such as this would seem to call for more thoughtful responses.

It's true that the admins followed the letter of the law (well, rules) in this situation, but rules aren't always perfect, and a community benefits from leaders who are able to recognize when the existing rules can't be directly applied the exact situation. An explanation of "why we didn't immediately delete this call-out journal" would have been much easier to make than "why we didn't respond faster to shut up a stalker than we did to delete his victim's frightened journal about him." A few minutes spent mulling over this would probably have resulted in the decision not to immediately delete the journal. Or perhaps some other course of action I haven't thought of, yet.
  Comment hidden by its owner
  lunaticmoth

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
The friend could have not made their inflammatory post. And if the original journal had turned out to be a fake, you could fault every single person who believed it for reacting to it without fact-checking it, too. The further away you get from the original people involved, the more blame there is to spread around. Unfortunately, it's simply not reasonable to consider the actions of every single person who could have possibly been involved as relevant. In this case, the relevant parties are TaranGryph, the FA admins, and the stalker. Anyone outside of them is taking actions based on what they do. The responsibility for the outcome of the situation must lie with them. I disagree that it was Qarezzel's journal alone that sparked this; that journal was a direct response to the aggregate of what had happened, culminating with the journal deletion. I saw rumblings about the problem on Twitter hours before her post hit FA. If it had not been her, it may well have been someone else. I would have been surprised if something of the sort had not happened, in fact. As you pointed out, this community is very sensitive to the actions of its admins.

As for imagining the kind of vitriol a community can spew at the wrongly accused, I don't have to; I admined a rather large community for over 4 years and we had this exact thing happen--and when the community figured out what was going on, and they did so long before I would have on my own, the anger was immediately redirected at the guilty party, and apologies were made to the real victim. The case of a stalker pretending to be stalked is that a ruse like that is incredibly hard to pull off for long, and the backlash against the offender for being a stalker AND a faker is much stronger for the perpetrator than for the administration who fails to out them in time (I took my fair share of lumps, to be sure, but nothing like the creep who got caught). Falsely accusing someone of stalking on the Internet is much harder than it looks, because there's almost always a trail, and The Internet is very, very good at finding trails. I'm not saying it can't be done successfully, but it's a far less likely situation than straight-up stalking, which relies on people blaming and disbelieving and second-guessing the victim to succeed, a tactic which works surprisingly well, as many of the comments in this very post demonstrate. I still see comment after comment claiming the victim is "butthurt" and "looking for attention." Stalkers depend on this rhetoric to flourish, and the Internet is rife with it. It is statistically safer for all involved to hold judgement on both accused and accuser until the evidence is in. This is almost always the case (although certainly, there are exceptions).

I disagree that the admins explaining why they didn't take down a call-out journal would cause a PR debacle on the order of "Exodus." Assuming it even made a high-profile user angry enough to post an "I'm leaving" journal, there would be discontent, but I sincerely doubt it would have been this bad. I've seen several popular artists depart FA over disagreements with management. Some were even about management failing to adhere to its own rules. Few elicited this kind of response. Then again, I didn't think the Fat Bunny Banner thing would be such a big deal, either, so I could be wrong in my assessment. Still, I think it would have been statistically safer to allow the journal to stay. Your what-if scenarios are far, far rarer than the actual situation that occurred.

TL;DR -- I disagree that the likely results of leaving such a journal up for a short time would be nearly as damaging as the likely results of taking it down. It is technically possible for someone to successfully masquerade as a stalking victim, but it's highly unlikely, usually easily debunked, and frankly the potential for damage to a good person's reputation pales in comparison to the actual damage a perfectly common and likely Internet harasser can do to their victim. Given the frequency that people are shamelessly harassed on the Internet, and the tendency for people to question whether victims of harassment brought it on themselves or are liars, there's very little reason for the perpetrators to risk trickery of their own and every reason to treat all harassment claims as legitimate and dangerous unless and until evidence to the contrary is presented.
  lunaticmoth

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I see the post I responded to was hidden by the time I posted a reply, which is unfortunate because although I disagreed with some of it, it was well-worded and civil, and there were other parts I did agree with. I don't know why you hid it, but I hope it wasn't because you thought it was a bad response.

I think conversations like this are useful, and intelligent discussion about difficult issues like this should be available to read in their entirety. It's better than watching people call each other names all day.
  raytlin

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Oh no, nothing like that at all. I thought I had hidden it in time to avoid you having to type out a response. I just tend not to post things online. As soon as I post them I go back and look at them and think, "Well, this is fine and well and all, but is it necessary?". Then for whatever reason I decide it isn't necessary so I delete them. I'm not sure why I do it, because I don't actually mind discussion. Your responses have also been very civil and very thoughtful, so it's not that I felt threatened by the conversation. It's just a quirk of mine I suppose. I apologize.
  raytlin

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I disagree that Qarezzel's journal isn't a vital part of the situation. I don't think it's further removed at all. I think that journal would be the cut-off. If it wasn't for the journal how many people would have actually even heard of this situation? I think bringing light to the situation was the spark that really set it off, even though all the damage had technically be done. You say that you already heard rumblings before the journal, and I agree that anybody could have made the post. But the fact remains that the "anybody" had to become a "somebody" and that somebody is what really spread the news to everyone else who was still in the dark. I don't blame them for making it, it actually makes sense that they would, but I don't feel that they are blameless. I do feel that those who spread the word are an unavoidable reality, and that in trying to examine how the situation could have been handled better we can't include that journal. When something like this happens we know somebody will bring attention to it, with or without all the facts. So it's not something we can solve nor "handle" better. It's just people being people.

And I don't entirely agree. I actually was thinking back to a situation that happened here on FA. A rather well-known artist was accused of being a sexual predator. I believe some notes were leaked, and a lot of real life "evidence" was provided. The issue with the evidence was that it was hard to verify, especially the real life evidence. It's well-known that many furries in this community try to seek out sex whenever they can. In a way there's nothing wrong with it. Sexual expression is a normal part of our society. Though it can turn violent or predatory, most of the times it's not. People just want to have fun. This artist sounded like one of these people. So the claims the "victim" was making were hard to disprove, because sexual interest was expressed by the artist. I think the facts that were left out was that the "victim" had been a willing participant, but after a bit of drama between the two the "victim" decided to claim it was abuse, and perhaps even rape. The hatred and rage expressed toward the artist was unreal. And sadly the facts were only very slowly accepted to be false, or just forgotten.

Now my knowledge of the facts is fuzzy, and things may have not happened exactly that way, but it is not an unreasonable situation to find oneself in. You may approach somebody for a good time, they might show they want a good time as well, then suddenly you find yourself on the other end of a rape claim. And sadly you can't really disprove much of it. The only thing you can do is try to make others believe that you were innocent, and that it wasn't rape. It's certainly possible, but not always easy. I think it was cause of that situation that the immediate removal of "call out" journals was put into place. Sometimes the evidence is very hard to confirm or deny. In that situation the admins were blamed for "protecting the popufur" even though he was a supposed predator, and that they were okay with people being sexual predators.

I don't know that there was a mass "Exodus" in that situation, but in this case I don't think there would have been a mass exodus either had Weasyl not entered open Beta. People can't flee very well if there's nowhere to flee to. I don't buy into the Weasyl conspiracies, but I think the timing of it's open Beta and this situation worked together and helped this situation go nuclear. Even through all this though I don't disagree that the situation could have been handled better, but I don't feel I can agree that that admins should have known that deleting the journal would have caused such problems. The deleted journal would have to be brought to light first to see what its contents were. Did it sound like a "call out" journal, or did it sound like an honest plea for help? That's an important element to the situation. If the admin reading it thought for a moment that the information sounded truthful, then yes they should have used better judgment, ignored the rules, and left the journal up while they investigated. And perhaps that should be in the rules so all the admins will do it in the future.
  synwolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I'll be perfectly honest ... if I'd been aware of this situation before Qarrazel ever decided to post up her Exodus journal, I know for a FACT that I would have spoken up. That's just the sort of person I am. When I see injustice, I -have- to speak up.
  lunaticmoth

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Fair enough. Thank you for the discussion.

It's a messy topic, to be sure. I tend to view these things from the perspective of "the simplest explanation is the most likely," and the most likely explanation should be the one acted upon first, in my opinion. There are always exceptions to the rules, and it's fair to say that such exceptions should be considered. However, given the option, I would rather address systemic flaws that favor the most culturally privileged party and make alterations to balance that privilege, regardless of the immediate damage it might cause those in charge (in this case, the FA admins). I still am not convinced that damage would be anything other than transient. But I hear you--there are situations where such an approach might cause more harm than good. I just really don't think this was, or was ever in danger of being, one of those situations. And I still think of Qarezzel's response as a foregone conclusion, given the set of circumstances that had already occurred. Although her action caused the outrage to flare up, the spark had already been made and the tinders were burning rapidly. It was a matter of time; the fire was started, and the admins lit it. Qarezzel just happened to be the kindling that caught first.

False rape/harassment claims do happen, but it's a tired and, in my opinion, irrelevant point in this case. It's true that the damage to a wrongly accused individual can be severe, although in most cases where the person is exonerated and the evidence is free to the public and transparent enough, it can be resolved. But even that being the case, the way we handle predators is as much to blame for the damage we do to the falsely accused as the fact people are falsely accused in the first place. That's another systemic problem, and it's a bad one, but it does not change the fact that it is unethical to punish a victim for behaving fearfully, and it is my opinion that the accuser be allowed at least as much leeway as the accused. That means suspending punishment of both parties until evidence rolls in. PR nightmares notwithstanding.

(I have nothing to say about Weasyl; I do have an account there, but have not spent much time on the site, and can't say whether I like or dislike it, and I don't entertain conspiracy ideas no matter how convenient the circumstantial evidence. I don't see the TaranGryph issue as something to leave FA over, although I think it does invite discussion on how harassment claims are handled.)

I did read the deleted journal before it was gone. From my perspective, it was a desperate plea as well as a warning. I detected no malicious intent in it or desire to defame anyone. To anyone who did read it (who was not an admin, I suppose), the idea of hiding it and leaving a note telling TeranGryph to not talk about it in public, I think would seem very overtly aggressive on the part of the admins, if nothing else. To me, it felt speech-chilling. To a lot of others as well, it would seem.

I'll grant that maybe the admins really wouldn't have imagined the firestorm taking the journal down would cause. On the other hand, I don't think it was impossible they could have imagined it. I think now, they can, and as you say, maybe they'll take different actions in the future in cases like these.
  lunaticmoth

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Not sure if my TL;DR reply posted correctly, hopefully this one does; FA's ordering of replies confuses me.
  raytlin

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I used to view things through simple explanations, but now I tend to view things with as many variables as possible. I don't necessarily utilize all the variables when making a decision, but I do consider them. For example, I consider Qarezzel's journal a vital part of this whole situation, but I don't consider it an important one. I know for a fact somebody else would have posted a journal. But I still consider it because it is still an important part of what happened. If Qarezzel's journal had been worded differently it could have changed (perhaps drastically) how this situation played out. After all, saying, "Look at what the horrible admins did! They are our enemies! We must leave!" is much different than saying, "Look at what the admins did! Why would you do that admins? We demand an answer!". Those both spark very powerful emotions, but can lead to very different outcomes.

However, while I try to consider all the variables in the situation I almost never use them in my solution to the problem. That is when I look to the most simple solution. In this case it wouldn't be what spread the fire, but what started the fire. That is where you and I don't really disagree. The journal shouldn't have been deleted, and everyone knows that. What I really disagreed with was people that accused the admin(s) that did it of "obstructing justice" or being "for the man and against the woman" and all that stuff. I feel the admin just wasn't trained properly for this sort of thing. And why would they? They are just volunteers as well as users. The rules said to delete "call out" journals, and so they deleted it, even though based on what you say they should have had the foresight to see that the journal didn't sound like a "call out" journal, but an honest plea for help.

In my opinion how we treated the admins in this situation is appalling. Yes, they made a mistake and deleted an important journal, but in the end the message and intent of the journal was still successful in its mission. The user and his puppet account were banned. Never at any point were the admins trying to hurt the victim. They were just doing what they were trained to do, and that is to delete "call out" journals and solve the issue in private with the victim. And my previous posts were merely defenses to the way they were taught to handle these situations, based on what I remember from past events. From their perspective their rules and their execution of those rules were the proper way to handle things. Now we all see that this wasn't the case.

But yes, sadly this is a case of learning from one's mistakes. I think this would have inevitably happened at some point based on how the rules are written, and how the admins are taught to treat these situations. Now they know that there was a flaw in the way they operated, they can amend the flaw, and hopefully this won't happen again.
  lunaticmoth

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
An understandable point of view. I definitely disagree with some of the more over-the-top outrage and vitriol and insults being directed at the admins. The only person in this entire debacle that acted maliciously was the stalker. That should be kept in mind by all.

Hopefully things will be better in the future.
  synwolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I think the community would have been far more understanding about a journal that should normally be deleted be left up until sufficient evidence could be gathered, than try to explain why they so rapidly shut down the victim of a stalker.

It's all about context. =/
  omegawolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Coming out of hiding to support this post 100%. The journal should not have been suddenly removed. It's impossible to make a rule so flawless that it ALWAYS resolves a situation, therefore acting on the ToS alone doesn't always make it the right decision, especially considering the state of mind of someone who's life could be in danger. To me, the ToS should NEVER be more important than safety in such a fucked-up situation.
  shadowhaven0

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This.
  omegawolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Thanks ^_^
  italiandragon

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Truth speaks trough your words buddy.
Infinite kudos to you.
  omegawolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Made me smile. Thanks ^_^
  demoniccompendium

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
also agreeing whole heartedly with this, as someone else who has suffered the same thing as taran with stalkers through FA, though my stalkers actually CAME TO MY HOUSE and we had them arrested
  mushussu

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Damn, I never knew that happened to you! D:
  demoniccompendium

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
yep, i have, it was rather a long time ago though [3 years] on a different account on FA
  mushussu

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Yeesh that's nasty, were they from FA?
  demoniccompendium

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
yep, i blocked them and they took it to RL
  mushussu

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
wow....just wow. Glad you are safe though (even though this is very belated lol)
  moonstone

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Youve my sympathies on that one I am hoping mine doesnt do that but if they do ive no qualms with using the tips I was sujested. Im sorry you had to go thru it Hell that anyone has to go thru with this.
  synwolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Fucking THANK you, SOMEBODY gets it!
  metonymy

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Is there a guide to submitting effective trouble tickets? Something like that might help prevent problems in the future and might make it easier on admins if those who submit them know what the admins are looking for so they can take action
  50l1d

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I didn't know till now why all the fuss journals was on in my inbox, I nuked a pile of them and gone to weasyl junk.
Personally the matter didn't bother me or anyone that concerns me, Fa is still my #1 Furry site, and more likely always be.
I feel your staff can handle everything on a timely matter, your not gawddamn robots that can handle everything in 10 seconds flat. :/

There be my two cents.
  anonfurs

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
"In the meantime, Tarangryph created a journal warning users to beware the stalker, and listed some evidence. We deleted this journal, as we felt it was a call out journal, and we had no way to verify the given evidence"

So this person links evidence of a stalker. Your admins delete the evidence because you cannot "verify" said evidence. There were mishaps created by both sides most obviously said user forgot there is a block feature for a reason. However the fact an Admin was so blatant in removing the journal instead of pursuing the problem or the said stalker is a judgement flaw.

Security of users information, confidentiality, and such issues need to be taken seriously. They are YOUR staff. This is YOUR site. The simple reason people flock like sheep and jump ship is simply because nothing happens till after the fact and serious issues are ignored.

Credibility is what is lacking. Users do not want words. They want action and competent staff who know the guidelines themselves. This is not a personal attack on you or various site administration. It is simply addressing issues that have been ignored for far too long.
  williamca

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Boy, you need to read better. Don't strawman argument and pick out specific parts. :I
  anonfurs

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Strawman? Pointing out specific problems in site management and seeking solutions is what is needed. No one here is discrediting what Neer has said. However, accusing others falsely of picking and choosing just to ignore issues that have been ignored is stupidity.
  williamca

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
"In the meantime, Tarangryph created a journal warning users to beware the stalker, and listed some evidence. We deleted this journal, as we felt it was a call out journal, and we had no way to verify the given evidence"

You used this as your main argument. Users were not ignored, they just acted too hastily or the admins responded too slow. Nothing had happened onsite yet so there was no reason to ban. If you did not notice though when he reappeared he was swiftly banned.
  anonfurs

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Evidence was removed, this user's appeal for help was ignored till this person left and only another well known user was upset over how the situation was handled. And yes harassment was on site as well as off site. It was clearly stated by Quarrezel that the stalker contacted her for personal information of Taran.

But this is semantics. Stop arguing moot points and picking fights because we don't kiss ass. We question. You should question. Improvements need to be made or this will be another blow to the credibility of this site and it's Admin again.
  williamca

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I must agree, improvements do need to be made. It seems the admin queue is still long even with all the new admins.
Quarezel apparently never contacted an admin about that...why not trouble ticket or providing evidence of that?...

ITS ALL A CLUSTERFUCK.
  anonfurs

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Because trouble tickets take too long especially when a stalker is asking about your personal information and writing fiction about breaking into your house and fucking you in your own fursuit.
  williamca

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Yeah they do. There's a ton of new admins and they still take up to a week to respond to. Inexcusable honestly.

I still think she should have gone to the police about this guy rather than putting full faith into a site as though it was the police. Though if he was asking for personal information I doubt she had enough to go on with him. Aside from /if/ FA cooperated with police to provide IPs.

Yeah...:[
  anonfurs

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Neer takes a stance of neutrality even when it comes to the protection of the very users that visit his site. There in is the rub. Proactive action instead of complacency and being responsible and holding ALL users equal is what it means to be someone who manages.
  junowolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
When a journal is deleted, it's contents are still readable to admins. Users just don't have access to it. The "evidence" is still available.
  anonfurs

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
All the more reason to cry complacency in this incident.
  ainoko

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
You know there are times when I think that the admins suffer from the N.I.M.B.Y. principle.
  dusk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Thank You! Anon, thank you. This is EXACTLY how I feel, and why people are now excusing this because the great and powerful dragoneer spoke is beyond me.
  anonfurs

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
what needs to happen is have a filter system that detects keywords in the subject of a help ticket and sets priority. Ive been on sites that do that and tickets get responded to really quicky. So long as the important and crucial issues get dealt with, all the people who lost their password can get dealt with when they get there.
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
i dont excuse the fact that changes need to be made...i just appreciate what the admins ALREADY do and think that they shouldnt be blamed as much as they are. The girl could have done things to protect her self...she didnt, and qar could have kept her nose out of it and let the issue get resolved...she didnt.
  anonfurs

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
both parties are at fault. Fixing the issues instead of placing blame and taking personal responsibility is everyone's job. She could have blocked the stalker. Admin could have been less complacent.
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
i agree with that. I just dontthink that the entire staff of fa should he blamed as much as they have been.

The admin involved already resigned dispite tons of protesting.

Who should REALLY be blamed is a) the stalker, for being the catalyst. and b) qarrezel for blowing everything out of proportion and causing all this drama. The victim and the admin arent anywhere near at fault as much as the other 2.
  dusk

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
No, quar was a concerned friend NOT a third party, and she carries alot of clout and felt driven to take her support away from the site because of what was happening. The fact that dragoneer said anything other is sick and wrong. They both deserve apologies, but dragoneer dodges and redirects. That seems common in his management approach, and I personally agree with quar. Its too much to stomache.
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
She was not Tar, The stalker, or the admins trying to resolve the issue. She was a 3rd party who should have minded her own business.
  dusk

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
no, you should mind your own business. She was a friend and a concerned party. In the real world, people have friends and family and problems that affect a person affect everyone in that person's close circle. I have watched Quar for a long time. She's not a dramawhore. She's actually one of the most reasonable people to gain popular status I have seen.

What you are saying is actually quite insidious and sick. By your logic, a woman who is raped should not attempt to gain help and support dealing with the issue through friends who may have been privilaged to the events surrounding the incident. In the real world, when people are attacked, other people come to their aid. This is something EVER lawyer and EVERY police officer is TRAINED to handle.

If FA needed a clean room sterilized case to act then it serves as proof of their inability to act when it matters and their own ineffectiveness. A journal with evidence was deleted by them even? My god, man!

Look, I actually think less of you for 9insisting what you do, and in classic furry fashion, I see that you are too stubborn and too convinced of your own crap to see another point of view, so why don't you just not respond to me. Honestly, there's nothing that you can say to me to make me consider you a creadible person with respectable ideas now.

*shakes head* Shame on you.
  dusk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
wow, you really support Dragoneer on this quite heavilly. The point here is that this is only one of many userbations and mismanagements on the admins part. it's the one that went public and it was bound to happen sooner or later, and frankly? I'm glad it did. the question is, why are you going about policing everyone with a descenting opinion? Dragoneer and staff made mistakes and need to fess up, appologise, and yes, it is their site anjd they can make and change policey and make better judgement calls. That's what it comes down to in the end. the simple truth that, they should have been better.
  williamca

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Not really supporting if you read further down. I've tried to be logical as a person would in this position. Neither side has been fully correct.
  williamca

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
in this position = observing the situation and having seen the original journal I mean.
  dusk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
ok, fair enough mate. :)
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
okay okay okay...i support ahacker collective Anonymous...but when you sit her trying to blame the admins for issues that were handled...andcould have been handled better had a 3rd party not butt in...thats where i draw the line
gtfo and take your V for Vendetta obsessed philosophy bs back to 4chan where it belongs. This isnt a "threat to freedom on information" it is an issue of stalking that was already fixed. We dont need the imput of 4chan 12 year olds who happen to have a few genius programmers siding with them.
  dusk

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
A twelve year old could not have made the intelligent points that anon did. I suggest you try and learn from they're example.
  darkgl

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This is why people need to take a step back and think before replying to a jounal like that, but there will always be ones that like to vent, even if they don't know the full situation.

Here's hoping the next issue that comes along, they'll chill and not make pointless drama over somehing that could have happened/gone better without having all the information.

Personally, I don't see any problems rearding FA or it's current admins, I think they do a good job if anything. So tke a chill pill or something.
  ainoko

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
"Neer as I have said, what happens off affects the site. Stalkers, troll, bullies, etc will continue to wreak their havoc online as long as they know that admins from other sites won't raise a finger to investigate what is going on. There have been numerous cases where a member was harassed here on the site, left to another site, only to be followed by their tormentors and that happens that other way as well.Yes Frederiksam did create a sock-puppet account to harass and stalk Tarangryph, but he was posting links from other sites that had material that had sensitive information about Tarangryph, he even went as far as going to one of her friends seeking her home address. His actions are classic stalker actions and he won't stop until he gets what he wants Tarangryph. If this has happened to one person here on FA, there is no telling how many others are receiving the same harassment. What happened to Taran became your problem the moment she filed the trouble ticket, it became your problem when Fredriksam started soliciting personal info from Taran's friend and possible others as well.

What happened a few days ago has given FA a major black eye. This is your chance to to make a difference and develop a policy that not only will give members an avenue to report offenders, but allow admins to look into what is going on by going to the links a member here provides as evidence, whether the evidence is on or off site. Remember, these people don't care what it takes to get to the one they want, even if it means going everywhere their target goes, talks to their targets friends, family, etc., getting personal and sensitive data. I guarantee you that Frederiksam won't stop, he'll be back.

Also, once he realized what was going on, he deleted everything that he had posted about Taran, he will post it again not if he finds her, but when he finds her. And that goes for anyone who is being stalked, trolled, harassed, etc.
  kontonakuma

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
If it happens again, on or off site, reporting it to higher authorities instead of just admins is the right thing to do. Admins can only take action if they have on-site proof, as Neer stated, it could easily be someone else who is a stalker with the same name and the wrong person could be banned. Regardless of where it is, any harrassment is best taken to the police or someone that holds the same authority.

Yes, this did hurt FA alot, and from this they are fixing their CoD. But the admins can only do what you can do if it's off site-report to cops of some form. Troll, harrassment and stalking can only be solved this way, as you stated he will be back. Admins can only suspend, ban and IP ban, not arrest a dick.
  ainoko

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Trust me you are both right and wrong. The proper authorities have admitted that they have no idea how to handle cyberbullies, cyberstalkers, m trolls, etc as said person may be in a different country, province, state, etc. What happened to Taran fell both in and out of FAs jurisdiction. There was evidence in the deleted journal that implicated Frederiksam and had the admin took the time to look into it, he or she might have done more. As it is, we will never know. But 'Neer and the admins can't say the rules for the site are black and white, they aren't, the rules are grey, very grey. As I have stated, what happens off FA affects FA, including what happens on site affects other sites as well.

A proper investigation can prove whether or not that person is stalking someone. But in order for cyberstalking, cyberbullying, trolling, etc to be brought down, site admins have to work together when something like what happened to Taran becomes public knowledge.

For me, I make it a point to make it clear on my front page, what sites I am active on, and what name(s) I logon with as well, that way if someone impersonates me, people will know that the person in question is not me.
  kontonakuma

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Not everyone does that though. Especially people who are intentionally trying to harrass. Seems like it would be stupid for someone who knows they're doing something wrong to let it be known to everyone what sites they go on. But not only do people who break the rules not state what other sites they are on, but people who are fairly new to being on the internet. Not everyone posts what other sites they are on, and the admins know this.
  ainoko

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I agree on those points, but troll, bullies and stalkers are experts at covering their tracks when confronted or exposed.
  silverautomatic

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
And how is this FA or Dragoneer's problem? They can't take action against things that don't happen on this site, and like he said, they can't always verify what goes on off site.

Who's to say I can't create an account in your name on twitter, spend a few days using said account to write nasty things to myself and then run to FA to say you've harassed me. Sure, FA can email twitter and request information, but most sites will turn around and say they're not allowed to hand that information out without a warrant.

Stalking, large scale real life harassment, and threatening behavior should be handled by a police department. If someone is going around searching for all your personal, private information in order to find you and contact you after you've made it clear you want to be left alone, then its a job for the police, not a bunch of volunteer furry site admins who (to my knowledge) have no formal police experience and/or training. They're also not lawyers and, as such, should not give out legal advice. All they can do is follow the TOS and AUP in regards to such incidents, which they did.

And, as Neer pointed out and I'll point out again, once they had on site evidence of what was going on? They took immediate action.
  ainoko

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Read my reply to KontonAkuma KontonAkuma

What is going on right now is people following the N.I.M.B.Y. principle. Just because what most of what happened to Taran happened off site DID affect her here on FA, thus making it 'Neers problem as well.
  silverautomatic

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
No, it doesn't. When it actually happened on FA; then yes, it became their problem and they handled it.

But until it happened on FA? Not their problem.
  ainoko

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Ok, so you are saying that it is ok for someone to stalk you all over the internet, posting your personal info everywhere you go, follows you here and starts posting links to your info on your page, journals etc and that it is NOT a problem of the site? The moment that person posted links to sensitive info on this site, it does become the site's problem
  silverautomatic

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Right. On this site. Not off this site. If they harass me on DA, IB, SF, or even twitter? I wouldn't expect FA to take action until I can prove it happened here, too. And, if you'd actually read what was posted above? You'd see that once they found evidence of such behavior on this site they took action for it.

And while we're on the topic: If someone is doing this to the point where you're actually in fear of them showing up at your home of job? That is a job for a police department, not furry website admins.
  ainoko

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Since when do the authorities ever doing anything about cyberstalking, and bullying anyway? We have seen how well they investigate cyberbullies and stalkers, by the number of bodies of those who committed suicide because nothing ever got done when reporting the crimes.

Yes the admins took action once they were told that Frederiksam had created a sock-puppet account. If it wasn't for a NON-ADMIN member of FA, 'Neer would have never found that account. If someone is harassing you on other sites and follows you here and starts posting links to offsite locations that has your personal info posted, they are violating the sites rules. But the problem here is the N.I.M.B.Y. principle (Not In My Back Yard), if it doesn't happen here, screw you, it's not our problem. No, it is the site's problem if the admins fail to act on the trouble tickets that are submitted with the required evidence.
  silverautomatic

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Uh, if it wasn't for NON-ADMINS MEMBERS OF FA then they wouldn't find lots of things.

Know why? There's about 20 admins, well over 60K active users, and this shit isn't Minority Report 2.

And once a ticket with the required information was submitted action was taken, so I'm forced to ask: What in the actual hell is your problem?

You cry "DO SOMETHING!" based on unverifiable evidence, which is laughable because we both know damn well that if actual was ever taken against a user based on unverifiable evidence and that person was later found innocent we'd be seeing the same exact fit we're looking at now. Yet when the evidence required is brought forward and action is taken it isn't good enough? I think you have unrealistic expectations on what website admins have the ability to do. They can't predict the future, they can't be everywhere at once. Some of them have real life jobs and just about all of them require sleep and social interaction time with a group of people not actively trying to drive them towards alcoholism.

And as far as the police go? In terms of cyberstalking and bullying, they are limited in what they can do. Current laws and capabilities of the police to properly investigate these incidents is quite limited. But, if you'd stop pitching a fit and actually read what I posted, I said that if you believed this person was actually going to show up at your home and/or job that you should report it. People showing up at your place is no longer cyberstalking, its real-life stalking, and that's something a police department is actually equipped to handle.
  summercat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
You know me. You know I'm not 100% unreasonable. So I ask you this...

If someone comes to us to report someone on the site, but all their evidence of wrongdoing is stuff that happened on other sites, and there is nothing showing wrongdoing on our site... do we take action, or not?

My answer is no, we do not: We are not responsible for enforcing other site's rules on FA, nor should we punish people for things off-site. There are a few exceptions to this - chewfox, for example, was banned for the hillaribad interview she did... then unbanned less than a day later and apologized to. There is also the occassional ban for offsite behavior when it is mentioned/commented/discussed on FA in such a manner that we could get in trouble. (This is listed explicitly in the rules as being not allowed, as well).

You call it NIMBY, but trying to go further than the borders of the site would result in us trying to be Team Furry: Fandom Police, and nobody really wants that.

  ainoko

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I'm not disputing that if you fear that your stalker is going to come to your home, you go to the police. Just remeber this, all that they can do is file a restraining order, something that even now is completely worthless as the police are ineffective at stopping stalkers. Here in Dallas there has been a few murders where stalkers (whether the stalker was a stranger or an ex) had restraining orders prohibiting them from getting anywhere near their victims and they just walked right through those orders. Rarely do authorities stop a stalker in their tracks.
  summercat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
As an addendum:

The evidence provided in the original callout journal that was removed consisted of three things:

1) Actions on Deviantart such as posting RL info;
2) Posting a story on another site(I forget which one) that was pretty bad;
3) Some comments on FA that were eyebrow raising, at best.

When the admin handling the callout journal removed it, the message included the instructions to block the user (which had not been done), as well as to please come to us with anything on-site, so that we might handle it.

Neither was done.
  ainoko

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Summercat, when the offender starts posting off site links to someones personal info, threats to said person here and it is pointed out to you and nothing is done about it, then it is called NIMBY. Refusing to acknowledge off site harassment when presented with the evidence, doesn't make the admins or site look good.
  summercat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Ainoko, none of those were presented to the administration. None. Zero. Zilch.

We had an accusation, but what was presented to us from the start had nothing. We had the DA stuff shown to us, we had that story shown to us, and we had some awkward shouts shown to us. Awkward shouts, however, are not disallowed on the rules.

Further, we did not say "No, we do not feel this requires administrative action." We did ask for more information. We asked the user to block the harasser.

Once again - this all blew up while we were waiting on further information from Taren. Not after we rejected her claim. While we were investigating it.
  ainoko

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I concede that, but the other issue that needs to be addressed is the trouble ticket system, when someone does file a harassment ticket, it gets dumped into the mass of other tickets that are filed and may never get seen for weeks or not at all. Harassment tickets should automatically go to the head of the line and immediately taken care of. What you admins need to do is find a way to code the the tickets in such a way that when a harassment ticket is filed, the system knows that it is a priority one ticket needing immediate attention. Otherwise this will happen again in the future.
  summercat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
We have part of a solution for that - but it requires that people tag their trouble tickets properly. Those dropdowns allow us to actually do a sort when we open up the admin ticket panel. Further, we are in the process of implimenting an internal structure, so we have people looking into specific departments as their primary. This structure isn't in a response to this incident - we've been working on it for at least the last two months, as we get the new admins fitted in and fully up to speed.

But even then - less than 24 hours between admin contacting Taran, and Qazzawhatever posting his third party journal. With no contact back from either Taran or Qazzawhatever during that timeframe.

I'm not certain what else we could have done, shy of taking someone's accusation of on-site wrongdoing at face value.

  tobiasamaranth

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I have a question. What if you are an admin of another site and have documented evidence of a particular user harassing and stalking at your site and suspect the user of using information gained here. Just as an example. So say I have the guy's IP, and can submit evidence of inappropriate behavior from the other site. Would any investigation be done into that person's IP here on site? Circumstances aside?
  summercat

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
That is a good question, and the answer is: Maybe, depending on the situation, but not necessarily.

We cannot divulge information to other sites willy-nilly. The only person who can authorize that is Dragoneer, and even when we implement our internal organization, anything that would viiolate that aspect of our terms of service would have to be authorized by him. If you as an admin of another site want to use information on FA for your internal decisions, that is up to you, but I do not feel in most cases that we can - or would - give out our user's personal information.

Now if you are an admin of another site, and you wish to provide evidence that "Hey, this guy is a bad guy," we can certainly take a look at what you provide us. But, and this is an important thing, evidence of wrongdoing in Location A is not evidence of wrongdoing in Location B. It's usually worth keeping an eye on a person, but without anything wrong on FA being performed, there's nothing for us to take action on.

Imagine two coffee shops. The owners are friends. Different stores entirely, though. Customer goes into Store A and is a difficult customer, and is kicked out. Owner A talks to Owner B about it. Later, same Customer goes into Store B. Owner B will be wary, but generally won't do anything unless Customer does something to deserve action.

Back to your original point, I would love to work with other sites for the benefit of the Furry community as a whole - but I am limited by our own rules with regards to information sharing.

  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
why i never use any info online beyond generic stuff.

my email adress name i used when setting it up is Chief Masters for gods sake.
  Comment hidden by the page owner
  mylordslover

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
If you don't have anything constructive to say on the matter, you may as well not comment at all.
  kaliak

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I am relatively unsure of what exactly transpired, but if this user were harassed in real life, it seems it would have been more prudent from the getgo to go immediately to the police and block this dangerous user. I don't know the exact circumstances and I'm not going to assume anything since there's no actual evidence of anything anywhere that details exactly what went down, but if a person discovered and stalked someone from a website anywhere and tracked them down, that's a police issue, not a website owner issue. what is a site admin going to do outside of send a stern shout and ban?
  juan2records

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Funny how no one noticed Weasyl open beta till this. Nothing of value has been lost anyway.
  kuntos

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
FA is full of bandwagoners, so was inevitable too
  sargeabernathy

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Wonderful post, Dragoneer.

I knew early on that something wasn't being communicated correctly somewhere. Too many people were getting angry too quickly and too intensely. I feel so bad for Taran, and I'm glad to not only see your effort to make amends with her ... but also an attempt to update your protocols to make sure something like this doesn't happen again. I hope she gets to read this eventually.



  kontonakuma

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Thank you for the clear up. I knew it was a big misunderstanding, and it's comforting knowing all sides to the story. If only everyone had the same common sense to even look beyond the text of their idols or friends before making a judgement.

I hope nothing like this happens again though. I know harrassment can be serious, but I also know that the admins aren't perfect.
  tsareia

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I recall a while back having an user harass me after belittling my weight in a photograph posted by a friend of mine. Several of us filed tickets and while it was resolved, it took a fairly long time for the situation to be fixed and the user is once more at large (I blocked said user because I don't want to deal with someone making fun of me). I received a response literally 2 months later.

I realize it must be challenging dealing with what must be a large number of complaints and open tickets with limited volunteer staff, but I wish that things could be resolved in a more timely manner.
  lafeel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Well as I am fond of saying, the first part in learning from a mistake is to make a mistake.

I have no intention of leaving over this, and hope that FA learns and grows from this expirience.
  bahn

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
*Tosses confetti*

\o/ YAY! \o/

We now return to your regularly scheduled furryness!
  warlegalomon

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Well said 'Neer, very well said. Yes, it is often forgotten that Admins are HUMANS in the real world as well. Many have lives outside of FA, have regular paying jobs, some have families, majority need some time to sleep. It's near impossible to catch everything that goes on here at FA, so both admins and users must work together to keep this a safe and fun place for everyone.

Hopefully we can all finally move forward. What's done is done, all we can do now is learn from the situation and work TOGETHER to prevent something like this from exploding in the future.

*HUGS* to 'Neer, and the rest of the FA Team.
  ysarupert

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
It may be messed up bad... but I will stick with Fur Affinity every step of the way! For better or for worse!
This is my favorite art site YET! And I'm not going anywhere!
I love this site too much to just leave, even because of an incident like this.

Plus, I don't know why many already felt like leaving, stating they don't want to be part of the "site that condones predatory behavior."
I couldn't believe that.
  ysarupert

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I guess you really do mean well, Dragoneer.
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
We all make mistakes from time to time. That said, I really do give a damn, and I have a lot of users to look out for.
  ysarupert

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Amazing.
  werevixen

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Hey, how many admins do you got? Roughly a dozen?

And you've got to have at least a hundred thousand to half a million users, right?
  mylordslover

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
that's not the point.

admins needs very specific qualifications, especially dealing with a fandom in which many members have physical/mental disabilities.

nobody wants to hear it, but most people just are not properly qualified to admin on here.
  werevixen

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This is just the stupidest kind of post imaginable.

Pray tell, why would the furry fandom have more mentally disabled people than any other? And why would someone with physical disabilities have unsound judgement to begin with? The point is that FA probably has too few administrators for the amount of users it has.
  artslave

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
And yet everyone wants admins to be perfect, flawless, and handle every ticket in a way they deem 'appropriate'.

Admins volunteer for a non-paying position, and need some programming background or whatever, and have to WANT to volunteer for basically endless abuse at the hands of the community they're sacrificing time for.

No fucking thanks. You get what you get and you be happy for it.
  mylordslover

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
oh trust me, i know.

my post above was to dispute the fact that the person above thinks just bc there are thousands of people on FA, that means there should be hundreds of admins
  artslave

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
LMAO they have a hard enough time getting the 32 they have D:

COMPLAINS ABOUT EVERYTHING AND HOW MUCH BETTER A JOB THEY WOULD DO AS AN ADMIN
oh so you want to admin for the site?
NO FUCK YOU
  mylordslover

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
it's so true though XD

i'd admin if i was more patient, but...i'm not XD i'd swing the ban hammer then neer would have to give me a time out
  crystumes

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This
  blarmajin

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I really haven't seen it from this perspective. Thanks for the enlightenment. (no sarcasm)
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I made a poll once asking if people had been diagnosed with a mental disorder and posted it on a furry chat...of the 3k+ peoplle that answered 86% said yes.

repeated on various other places and the average came down to 72% said yess.

and lets face it...most of us are bipolar or autistic. Its a flat fuck fact.
  werevixen

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Because on the internet, everybody takes a random trash poll seriously.
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
because on the internet...all the uptight furries are desperate to feel normal and dont want to assosciate with people with mental problems.

most furries are bi or gay, have bipolar, autism, or are autistic, have really fucked up kinks, and fap more than the average person.

I accept this fact (because it is a fact) without prejudice. You denying it is just sad.

What you stated about us not having any more than any other fandom is true...most fandoms like ours have a high number of people like that.

im not trying to he rude or anything, but im serious when i say "open your eyes"z
  werevixen

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I think you're an idiot if you even believe any of this you're typing.
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
you're in denial. how sad.

ill leave you to your delusions. have a nice day.
  werevixen

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I know a cheap troll when I see them.
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Im not trolling, and I said have a nice day.
  werevixen

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
You're in denial, how sad.
  alphazion

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I wish I could upvote this for truth. <3
  artslave

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
They have a really hard time getting people to volunteer to be admins, for obvious reasons. So when people do volunteer, they probably aren't perfect for the job, but they do their best, and usually get shit thrown in their faces for it, it's really a not cool situation.
'
Frankly, I think everything was handled as it should have been.
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Pathetic,dude. People like you are the reason the above shit happens.
  keio

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
31 admins, 2-4 techs, god knows how many users.
  twbviper

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Wait, we have techs?
  keio

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Yes we do, only a few though which is why technical fixes, updates, and stuff take a little while to roll out.
A lot of the tech tickets can be debugged by the admins, but the ones that cant get added to the techs workload >.>
  fullbloodlion

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Is all this over now? Can we go back to like, art and shit? Because I've got to admit, that would be pretty stupendous.
  kontonakuma

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Couldn't have been better said.
  arizonacrow

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Ugh agreed.
  mylordslover

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
how ironic.
  arizonacrow

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Imma go ahead and block-a-bitch,and do my self a favor, child.
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Porn time.
  Comment hidden by its owner
  ainoko

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Or did she? We don't know
  Comment hidden by its owner
  maskedpuppy

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Sadly, Neer, you are "the man" here on FA. And no furry who is apt to drama is going to listen to what "the man" has to say. Welcome to the unfairness of being in charge.
  maskedpuppy

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I've made more than my fair share of fuckups in FA's history, so I'll be the first to accept that some of the user's frustration and wariness is warranted. However, we legitimately WANT this site to improve, to be better and to excel. We've been warning hard to do that.

This was like hitting a speedbump that caused the car you're riding in to burst into flame.
  idejtauren

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
But I thought everything was supposed to be better with explosions?
Guess not in this case.

(Disclaimer: Not serious response)
  maskedpuppy

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Just to clarify, I think the amount of drama is ridiculous. The situation could have gone better, and there was a lot of unfortunate misunderstanding here, but I think the initial journals were blowing things far out of proportion. The world isn't like mommy's arms - you can't run home from being bullied and expect to get a hug and have the problem immediately resolved. Life in the real world, with adults, doesn't work that way. There is no instant gratification and while I see and admire how hard you and the rest of the team are working, nobody's going to be happy all the time in a community as large as FA.

Most people don't pay attention to the positives and only focus on the bad, especially in a community like FA, where most users have a tendency to go overboard with emotional responses to typical problems. I'd like to know how many of the ragequitters we're seeing at the moment actually attend the Town Hall meeting, or stayed updated with the new admins in training, or paid attention to any of the TT statistics. A lot of them are under the idea that there's this huge team of 100+ people working on FA day and night to solve their petty disagreements and delete the poorly traced anime screenshots that show up everywhere. They don't realize that this isn't a corporation where they can get their money back if they aren't 100% satisfied. I don't think that it's fair to expect a guarantee of satisfaction like that.

Patience is a virtue. Bless you for having it with all of us.
  kandikatkreations

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This!
  mylordslover

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Neer is the white man trying to bring us down.
  thatdognamedcat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
FA has become my home. I won't tuck-tail and run when times get tough. Family doesn't do that.
  sciggles

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
awwww
  thatdognamedcat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
It's true ^^
  maskedpuppy

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Sweetest comment I've seen on this journal.
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Given what you said earlier in this journal in response to someone http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31912910


Yeah that's pretty messed up and I can't blame the FA Staff in the slightest. As for the user directly, they didn't follow the steps the site recommends as they should have, and that didn't help any. But in the end the staff did do their job. It just sucks that 3rd parties as you say didn't mind their business.
  kharnak

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
you stop a stalker.... by going to their place, and physically incapacitating them.
No other way to stop someone who's really determined.
  metonymy

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Hard to do if they are stronger than you. Also illegal in most places. The best way to stop a stalker is to take legal action against them. Gather evidence, document everything, and take it to the authorities.
  kharnak

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
you don't need to get close to someone, to incapacitate
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
but snipers are wussies!
  alphazion

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Say it again, but louder and from an exposed position.
  kharnak

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
that's what the Russians said in WW1, and then used the same tactics, refined them, and made them THE standard we employ today.

But.... further, one doesn't even need to be in the same STATE to incapacitate, i should clarify.
People who ARE afraid of these things, know the "alarm bells" to look for. the average person, doesn't think of this. A stalker enjoys the fear and unease. Law & Order and Criminal Minds shows many examples. points out interesting loopholes, gaps, and ..... just outright stupidity the average person has when conducting themselves online. I'll say no more.
  rubygirl14

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Incapacitate them with hoards of furry porn.
  magetorment

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Hmm, something reasonable happens and furries blow it way out of proportion? Seems about right.

[In this case 'reasonable' means the admins asking for evidence and trying to be helpful, not the stalking bit.]
  stargazerbleu

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Must be hard when one side only uses half the facts.
I hope others realize that the admins are only human and can not monitor 24/7

I have come to love this place and it like a home, and I plan to stay on FA. <3
  hyenahyena

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Its such a load of crap man

Nothing infuriates me more then people blowing an arguement into 2 extremes and then saying if you're not AGAINST one thing you're FOR something else.

It is like saying if you're not in the streets shooting criminals then you are encouraging criminals. If you're not actively fighting a house fire right now then you are encouraging house fires.

This is called a FALSE DICHOTOMY.

Because you were not blood thirsty enough and because you/the mods wanted to see evidence of the dude stalking clearly you are FOR people getting away with stalking.


Also the most hilarious part of all this is that the dude -wasn't blocked-
I dont know what to even say to that
  vgm22

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Glad to hear the whole story on all sides in one journal. Really hate all this drama BS that usual end up like this and ends up making people choose sides and friendships end, ect. Drama like this will always happen from time to time on FA. What we all need to do is learn from it and make sure it doesn't happen again.
  martinidog

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Furries checking out both sides of the story? You ask too much!
  silverautomatic

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Furries checking out both sides of a story is like me ignoring a sign that says "Free All You Can Eat Buffet".

There's a better chance of me curing cancer tonight.
  martinidog

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
When people were tweet-spamming that Dragoneer condones this sort of conduct, I thought, "Wait, seriously? That can't be right at all." Do people seriously not think?!
  silverautomatic

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Its an emotional reaction to something they have an emotional tie to. Either they were stalked, had a friend or family member who went through it, or have witnessed it happen to a number of people they know.

Unfortunately, sometimes they emotional response outweighs the more logical one that says "Huh... maybe I should look into this and wait for more information before getting mad".
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
""Huh... maybe I should look into this and wait for more information before getting mad". "

Sadly that train of thought requires thought.
  kappy

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Aaaaaaand Silver hit it right on the head! I think this is an excellent observation of their emotional response - well said!
  silverautomatic

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
My MOAB teacher drilled one concept into our heads time and time again. Told us if there was one thing we ever remember from that class he wanted it to be this:

Your first reaction is your most emotional.
Your second reaction is your most logical.
Your third reaction is the one you've official over-thought.

Hasn't been proven untrue to date!
  kuntos

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
i guess my emotional and logical like to play reverse mostly. :3

must be why i always giggle after reading mob-riling stuff ^^'
  forgottenscales

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Twitter wasn't enough to contain your words

Fund it.
  toxictundra

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I've been a moderator on a number of sites and ran into so many similar issues. It's hard to handle and make everyone happy without everything being perfectly handled. And it requires a lot of delicacy on everyone's part. I think this journal is completely open and providing understanding. Compared to other people I've seen, you've answered this with impressive maturity.

Good luck with this uproar. And I dunno if you'll even see this comment, but if I can provide help of some sort, I'd be happy to.
  retroj

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
How many admins are there on FA anyways? Just curious..
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
  summercat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
...I laughed once.

dragoneer

It was terrible.
  timoran

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Let's pretend that list is 1:1 and you don't have admins with secret admin accounts or who have opted out of being publicly recognized as being admins.
  moskintia

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I only need/want one account on here! ;}
  keio

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
That list pretty much is 1:1, it is accurate to within about 3-4 users as far as I am aware
  retroj

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
That was kinda more than I expected, haha
  hoot

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
You know for the sheer amount, I think my only complaint is that I'd expect trouble tickets to be responded to a little.. quicker? :' D
But I'm also not sure if there are levels of administration that you have to be in, and if that job lies on those at a higher level. iunno.
i definitely think that if tickets were responded to briefly, things like this could have been heavily avoided.
  sciggles

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I agree but with tickets going down more and more each week I really think once all is caught up everything will be much better
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Keep in mind even a little over a month ago we had half that number, and a month over that half as less. We had a lot of good admins migrate onward in 2012, so we had to rebuild our numbers. Some tickets unfortunately got delayed when that happened. We're almost caught up now.
  slither

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Thanks for all the work you do for FA, 'Neer. This whole episode has been the height of silliness, but I guess we we just about due for another drama exodus, right? I'm still here, for whatever that's worth. ^^
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
OKAY EVERYONE! SLITHER POSTED! WE ARE ALL NOW REQUIRED BY LAW TO BE FRIENDS AGAIN!

i find that whenever you post i am incapable of being mad. i dont know why.
  hoot

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
its cause hes such a nice freaking person XD
  slither

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Aw, geez, Hoot. #^^#
  slither

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
It's the frills, right? Everybody loves the frills! :D
  danjen

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
There was a thing going around on Tumblr (maybe it was the journal reposted? I don't know I didn't dig too deeply into the facts, just looking at the hearsay)

In any case, whomever wrote it cited such anecdotes as, and I'm paraphrasing "someone openly admitting to being a dog rapist and instead of going to the authorities, the 'correct' thing to do is tell the admins"; the problem with that is this lies solely in the hands of the admins passing the information along and there HAVE been times in the past where people ADMIT to crimes on this site and no legal followup happening
  junowolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
People do that on YouTube all the time, what's your point?
  conneich

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I had no idea any of this was going. I dont know any of the people in question. After reading the journal I feel the FA admins did what was necessary and are at no fault. The issue is brought on ONLY by an ignorant outcry from a disgruntled friend of the victim. The issue was being handled as any Customer Service department would take care of an issue that had arisen of this nature.

The only feelings I get from this is a facepalm at the ignorance and impatience of people. I still have faith in FA and its staff! Good luck with the move 'Neer! We still love ya :D
  danjen

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Really? Someone allegedly gets threatened with rape/stalker issues and your solution is to treat it as "customer service"? That patience is warranted in a situation involving a potentially life-changing attack?
  silverautomatic

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
If there truly is a chance (or even the belief of a chance) of a life-changing attack then people should be contacting a police department, but furry site admins.
  danjen

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
See my post above; as per what I heard second hand, apparently the user tried to find the user's contact information so they could report them, but ultimately got in trouble for doxing them; the process is to contact the admins so THEY can report it. Apparently.
  johnnyblanco

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Why the fuck should they get FA involved in the first place. If I had someone stalking me on FA and saying how they wanted to cut me open and live inside my body like a fursuit I would go to the cops! (well after a bit of investigation first as to where this idiot lived in correlation of my proximity.. if he was close i'd prolly file a restraining order with the cops.. if not I wouldn't worry about it.)

But there's a reason that I would file a restraining order with the cops... this way this asshole breaks in and I stab him to death the cops go.. "well he DID file a restraining order and he DID break in.. you are free to go."
  conneich

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I work Customer Service at my job. When someone comes to me, with no evidence besides word of mouth, that there is an issue in the store, I dont immediately call the cops. I either A) Call the Manager to escalate the issue into Investigation, or B) If I see the issue in question first-hand, call the cops. You have to realize that its not always: CALL THE COPS!! A system is in place to protect the victim, the company, and even the suspect. If the FA admin had immediately gathered the IP, the physical location of the user and either A) openly handed that information to the victim-user, the "suspect" could easily file suit against FA for Invasion of Privacy and Eliciting Private Information W/O Consent, or B) contact the local authorities there, and still have the same risk of legal backlash from the "suspect."

You can't jump to conclusion without knowing the angles. That's why I said the FA admin did the right thing. They were going through a standard customer service procedure. The issue arose -> Inquiry for further evidence -> Investigation -> Action.
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
^this
  ghostt

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I've never had a problem with FA nor am I coming in with support for either side simply because there's more in the dark then what were actually reading on both sides. Weather it be for u or the victims / delinquents in persausion. However misinterpretation seem to have been the focal point and a lack of action to handle this effectively sooner. Just my opinion from this matter
  floppity

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Everyone's personal notes were still leaked, that probably isn't very good. :(
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
A little over two years ago, yes. We regret that happened, but those are old scars... =/
  Comment hidden by its owner
  johnnyblanco

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This was a small incident that was eaaaassily blown out of proportion. But there is one fact I have been hitting home OVER and OVER again and it seems no one wants to embrace it. I have been called stupid for saying this and saying "well it could still happen."

Where are these two in relation to each other?

I am dead serious when I say this if they are in the same city or state (or whatever it is in another country) where they're separated by either feet or less than 100 miles... then it's an issue

but if the person being stalked lives in CA and the person doing the stalking lives in the Ukraine.... ... should you REALLY be concerned?!?

I mean honestly! Do you think this guy has enough money to buy a 1 way ticket to the us, clear customs and all that and stalk this person? (using my above example)

I hiiiiiighly doubt it!

Most furries when they talk about shit like this.. that's all they are doing.. talking shit.

But if you feel that your life is in danger do you go to the cops or do you go to an admin on a porn site..

If you're answer is to think about filing a trouble ticket over going to the police.. there is something VERY fucked up in your head.. and you deserve what you get.
  synwolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
You'd HONESTLY be surprised. It's happened within the fandom before. And as far as I know, in this case, they're both at least within the same continent, so, like I said ... if there was enough crazy (and seeing as how this was writing rape fantasy porn involving this girl's RL self, definitely makes he feel like he's sufficiently high on the crazy-o-meter), it's NOT outside the realm of possibility.

First rule of dealing with psychopaths--trying to define them within the parameters of logic and sane reasoning is impossible.
  johnnyblanco

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
first rule of dealing with psychopaths... get a sharp instrument, blunt instrument or a gun and don't stop until they're DEAD
  synwolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Also not always possible. Then again, I don't really know the laws very well anywhere outside the US and as both Taran and her stalker are from different European countries, I can't really claim to be any sort of expert on the issue as far as self-defense goes. =/
  johnnyblanco

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I really don't care about law or anything else.. someone breaks into my house i am going to assume that they are armed and dangerous and do what i need to defend myself. And if that means stabbing someone to death.. that's fine.. why do you think people if they intend to shoot the burglar.. shoot to kill?

Because the dead can't sue.

  synwolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
It's not about suing, it's about being able to definitively prove that there was a sufficient amount of danger presented to warrant lethal force. THAT is the gray area, that often ends in victims going away to prison for the rest of their lives for killing their attackers. It sucks, but it HAPPENS. A lot more than people would like to know about. =/
  sheppymomma

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
*raises a glass of wine*
To the future being a better one for fA
Thanks guys, for what you are able to do!
  silverautomatic

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Hey, hey, hey. Did you bring enough for the whole class? You can't just bring enough for only yourself. That's mean!
  sheppymomma

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
*pours you a glass* WINE FOR EVERYONE
  sciggles

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES
  silverautomatic

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
*gives his glass to Sciggles*

I have no interest in pictures of shirtless drunk me appearing on FA this week. XD
  sheppymomma

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
TRUFFLE SHUFFLE
  silverautomatic

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Oh god. Wasn't the one at FAU good enough for you people?!
  sheppymomma

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
NOPE.
  wolfdragon69

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
*Adjust monocle* Quite. *sips*
  mylordslover

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
grapejuice for the underagers?
  preston

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I'm underage. :(
  sheppymomma

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
*sparkling cider for you*
  preston

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Yay, Cider! :3 Thankies!
  mykellwildfire

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Just glad the whole thing is over with. Felt like there was a serious lack of basic logical thinking from those who just decided to blindly toss their lot in and take to extreme sides. FA conspiracy? Admins trying to protect criminals? I honestly can't fathom the logical jump to such a conclusion.

But that's water under the bridge at this point, and we can all breath a bit easier now.
  timoran

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Hypocrite.
This journal violates the "Call out journal" policy because it mentions users by name.
Don't you see the irony?
  felisrandomis

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
He doesn't appear to be bashing or warning people about either of these people though, so is it really calling out?
  rupert

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
If this is sarcasm its going way over my head.
  Comment hidden by its owner
  rainbowfoxy

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Well said, Dragoneer. I've tried to and remained mostly neutral during all this, and its good that its starting to work out.
  damaratus

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
PR is almost always the most difficult thing to manage on large sites. It become damage control before it even has a chance to be reasonable. :-/
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I didn't even have a clue what was going on until it broke out.

I was getting threats, insulted, people asking why I hate women, why I endorsed stalking... and I just had no clue what was going on. Got home, saw the journal, and... yeah. What? It's been a nightmare.
  damaratus

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
These days it's easier to act on partial information rather than waiting for the whole deal. Even with that, it becomes hard to get people to believe the truth.
  kontonakuma

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
The stress you put up with Neer.
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
So many times I imagine Sciggles coming home, you falling face first into her lap crying.. "I see dumb people, and they don't know they're being dumb. "
  kuntos

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
my favorite part was when it suddenly became a stupid sexism thing OUT OF FUCKING NOWHERE! XD
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I didn't even hear about that part.. oh good lord the mobs can be weird xD
  kuntos

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
agreed. @@
  summercat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Apparently, we had banned Taren, by one point.

:v
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Rumors, they are like candy!
  let

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Something told me that this was a case of things getting blown out of proportion.
  ryunwoofie

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I think you guys handled this a lot better than expected. The people who accused and pointed fingers and made an ass of themselves should feel ashamed. While this is a terrible situation, I have never see so much ignorance from the masses using this site. Just to get involved in something not involving themselves and passing judgement on such little one sided evidence. Good on you Neer and your staff for dealing with this crap situation they put you though. I'm glad it was handled, and I'm glad your making the steps necessary for situations like this to be prevented in the future.

Viva la FA!
  kandikatkreations

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This!
  anekmehkt

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Completely unaware. Personally if a journal is simply WARNING other users about a user in particular with evidence it shouldn't be considered a call out (despite it being one) when they're informed why they should AVOID and [b]BLOCK]/b] said user.
  mykellwildfire

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
That may have been the original intent, but that is rarely what ends up happening. What actually happens is you aren't really warning anyone. What you're doing is unintentionally forming a lynch mob.
  fancyskunk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
And that's exactly what happened here. The comments made on fredricksam's page were incredibly unsavory and quickly descended into telling him to go die.
  anekmehkt

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
You can't blame the author of the journal if their original intent is to warn other users. What those users who read it do the author has no control over and shouldn't be blamed for their actions.
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Main problem though is that the evidence in the journal was referring to things that occurred on NON-FA sites. So there was little to prove that it was the same guy on FA. From an admin perspective, it could of been some guy with the same name just doing these things.

Using an example from above. If someone took your name and went into a bunch of livestreams harassing artists who were streaming, and you on FA got banned with no proof it was you other than "They had the same name", wouldn't you be a tad miffed?
  anekmehkt

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Impersonation is always possible when it comes to being off-site evidence but either way their supporters should've just blocked her stalker instead of leaving said comments. I can understand why the Administrators don't use off-site material as proof though as that's already been explained.

Wait--you just said the Administrators don't use off-site material as proof to ban. Are you now saying they do? Also if this happened off-site (as your example is) then why would I get banned on FA? I would've had to harass the users here on FA in order to get banned.
  spottycat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Fact: If an artist posts that they are being `stalked`, and drops a name, that artist's watchers are going to light torches and go take a stroll to burn somebody alive in their home.
  anekmehkt

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I realize this but what some of you are missing is that there are some watchers who are smart enough to avoid and block the user pointed out in the author's journal. Not everyone is as stupid as you believe them to be.
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Unfortunately though, those smart users who just block and avoid, do not outweight the many who will blindly whiteknight and create hell for someone who may be potentionaly innocent
  anekmehkt

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
And you know everyone on this site? I doubt it but my point stands, don't categorize everyone as the same if even there's a possibility the majority of the site are blind white-knights defending a popular furry.
  kuntos

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
just a standby input:
people whiteknight and "fanboy/girl" around here a LOT more than they would seem, smart or not. have seen it happen at least 20 times over the years. (un/intentionally both ways)

the smarter ones are the ones who keep on the sidelines as i generally do, in my opinion. (keep their opinions solitary and not perverting the situation any further more or less)

alas, i feel i'm rambling and not really offering input as intended ^^"
  anekmehkt

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Yeah, you rambled a bit there.
  kuntos

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
apologies ^^" hope were able to get the main point there though
  anekmehkt

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
It's alright, most people just seemed more focused on the negative instead of the positive. Cool icon btw. :)
  kuntos

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
i speculate from all around myself. ^^ or try to when able. :3

*dook* glad ya like the icon as well ^^
  anekmehkt

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
In the end, concerning this case, it wasn't speculation but even still if I were a watcher or a fangirl I wouldn't have said anything to her stalker; just block him/her (as the stalker's userpage shout box is closed from what I understand). If I knew what happened I would've spoken with her only on her journals.
  kuntos

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
same.
and i didn't even know her prior to this.
  anekmehkt

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Same here.
  arizonacrow

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
" The evidence of stalking was primarily pointing at actions that occurred on Deviantart.com and Flashback.org. When we are presented with information off-site we /very rarely/ take action on it,"


That's a flat out lie. You ALWAYS use off-site information. No matter what it is.
  spookycoon

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I can back this statement. Dragoneer and his admins claimed I was underage, because of information on ANOTHER site.
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Some clarification on that:
We go by what's on your FA page. If you FA page links to your Facebook, and your Facebook states that you're underage, you put that link on your FA page. Likewise, if you put your Skype, we'll check the references you yourself put on your FA page.

So yes, we will check date of birth to see if you're lying, but will only take action if you're lying on FA. If you listed on FA that you're 43, but every other site you've linked to says you're 16, then we've verified through your own sources that you linked to that there is a discrepancy on your own information.

We're just using your information that you put on your own page.

Whatever actions you take off site, that's another story.
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  shivadramon

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
User being discussed here asked that all comments be hidden about her suspension.
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Wait, who?
  kayla-na

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Out of protection for her privacy, I'm not dropping her name here.
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
If I used off-site information half the people I hate would be gone. And they know that.

Do you really think I sit here and go "Boy, I sure do love when people bash me on my own site. Let me not take action on them, but oh, that one dude who posted shit about me on [OTHER SITE]... that dude's going DOWN!?" Did you see the comments people were leaving on my shoutbox who are STILL on the site? Who I did NOT take action on?
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I think the grey area is that

Staff uses Off-site information as potential evidence to verify what they find on-site to make connections.

But they do not act SOLELY on off-site information by itself.

Much like in the case here. You guys had the off site evidence, but couldn't act solely on it until you had cooberating evidence when the stalker began using an alt account to continue his harassing.
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
It all comes down to what's on their own page. If we have a reason to believe people are tracing, we will investigate the claims of the trace. Likewise, if people are lying about their age, we /do/ look at other profiles to verify age, but ultimately it comes down to what's on your own page. Nothing more.

Whatever you write, your thoughts, your opinions are off site are not our concern, but we do fact check accusations based on links people provide on their own page.
  kuntos

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
wasn't the age thing hwo you guys banned a few pedos a few years back?
  arizonacrow

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
That's very true, Drayk.

But I'm saying I've non Dragoneer to solely use off-site information.
  arizonacrow

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Known*
  hoot

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Now that it's all been verified, though, perhaps he and the staff will take consideration into that and do that far less and try more adamantly to follow their T.O.S., as they've done here in this situation.
  arizonacrow

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Very true.
  arizonacrow

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
No, because I don't stalk your page. I don't check your shoutbox. But I'm very sure people have bashed you, they have good reason to. But you really have made some dick moves in the past, and probably the future, It's up to you to fix that, though. You guys need to get your stuff straight. People are leaving FA and it's sinking fast. personally, I love the site, but you and all the admins make it worse, and that is not a good thing.
You can choose how to run your site how you want to, but this whole thing, this stalker thing? Was stupid. The admin should have informed you more thoroughly. And that admin failed at that. Honestly, you need to either hire new admins, hand control of the site to someone else (That is NOT worse than you), or, like I said, get your stuff straight.
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
On the plus side, I dig the icon.

And yes, we're working to make things more transparent and clear. We have been making concerted efforts to improve support, and unfortunately this was not handled to the best it could have been.
  arizonacrow

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I'm classy like that.
  deja-blu

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
lol chew-fox what?
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Not my best moment.
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
"I crashed F.A. twice and all I got was this stupid shirt :3"


Personally I can't really blame you, it was a pretty special moment.
  talegas

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Didn't you permabanned thewielder thewielder for what he said over at Twitter?
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Yes.

He's endorsing people to outright attack the site. There's a vast difference, and when you go out of your way to cause extreme problems, we will make exceptions. The Wielder has a huge history of trolling and disruption on the site, and encouraging people to attack the site pushes the limits of acceptability.
  chronidu

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
So basically it's really not a matter of "Not banning people for stuff that occurs off-site" at all so much as you picking and choosing situations as you see fit.

Meaning the excuse of not pursuing or even glancing at proof of Taran's stalker because it 'happened offsite' as you said all of two days is either complete bull, or you find the threat of a notorious FA troll threatening the website on twitter more important to seek out and act on than a user on your site being stalked and sexually harassed.

Seriously???
  yanderedanshi

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
^ This. So much
  demondragon

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Can I fave this comment?
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
MEANING they will use what happens off site to ban you if you already have a track record ONSITE for causing problems and what you are doing off sit will cause more problems onsite.

If i go out and say Imma haxor FA on funnyjunk and neer reads that then comes back and sees im an upstanding and helpful user onsite hes not going to ban me.

once again...a user has taken things out of proportion and twisted what neer has said...THINK dude. BEFORE you comment.
  seinkraft

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
  markshark

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Although I see your point, this doesn't make the action of Forge less bad. Would you be cool knowing that somebody is about to organize an attack to your website? I know I wouldn't.
  ginzburg

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
dude they already admitted a mistake was made with the journal situation and secondly the wielder was making attacks or trying to against the site which takes it from being off site to site security. Really sorry you can't seem to get over a past issue that's been taken care of but hopefully you will one day... unless you're a troll then I know that's just wishful thinking XD
  akadirio

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
If you read what Dragoneer actually said in this very journal, you will note that the biggest issue with off-site evidence is not knowing wether person X on a site is the same person with the name on another site.

If you're going to crosslink, having a shout or anything else on FA linking to twitter and claiming you said it, you pretty much remove that doubt.

It's not a matter of -where- the evidence is, it's a matter of wether or not it is true evidence and not a misunderstanding, trick or anything else.
  alphazion

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Making threats about an FA user (allegedly) != making threats against FA directly (confirmed).
  unburntdaenerys

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Given his track record with victims of sexual harassment, this doesn't surprise me in the least.
  chronidu

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Yes clearly being upset over practiced hypocrisy and the mistreatment of the user base makes me a troll. Furthermore pointing out the very owner of this website practicing favoritism in instances he finds more important to himself and showing he's more than willing to break his own rules when it suits him is surely me just starting trouble.

I'm sorry I'm upset that Dragoneer finds a troll on twitter making statements he knows are exasperated over-exaggerations more important to look into than the sexual harassment and safety of a user on his website.

Yes, clearly I'm simply a no good trouble maker, nothing more and nothing less.
  chronidu

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Seeing as this journal has reached the breaking point, this comment was ginzburg
  ginzburg

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
dude you are being a troll because you're being butt hurt about something that was handled how it should have been. Practicing favoritism makes me question things here as well do you refer to the fact that someone popular made a ticket and it wasn't instantly answered.. is that why he's showing favoritism? or do you mean how he banned the wielder for being a cock sucking douche bag attacking the site?


maybe you should take a moment step back from your fanboy pedestal and think about how the real world works and how that fact forced the admins to take the actions they did take.
  chronidu

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I'm a troll... because I'm upset over stuff being handled in a shitty way, and users being treated unfairly. Okay I'm starting to realize you're not particularly gifted in the logic department.

In fact I'm beginning to question if you've read a single word I've typed here or if you're just pulling what you want to hear from my speach. I have no clue where you're getting anything about user popularity or favoritism towards specific users? And Fanboy pedastal? Fanboy of what or who? I can't stand TheWielder and I don't know Tarangryph nor did I before this entire situation. I guess if you were really reaching you could say I'm a Fanboy of website Admins taking the safety and wellbeing of their users seriously. Otherwise though I have no idea where all these straws you're pulling at are coming from.

I was talking about Dragoneer showing favor to giving his attention to offsite Tweets as apposed to on site altercations. This had nothing to do with who the users were, or who was doing what. This had only to do with actions taken.
The thing I give a shit about is that apparently exceptions can be made to how this site is policed when a person rants on twitter, but not when a user's safety is at risk. That's all I'm upset about here. If you seriously think me being upset about a situation as serious as this makes me a 'troll' then I have little hope for you coming to any level of logical understanding here.
  ginzburg

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
wow So now I've come to the understanding that you are a troll or just have no clue what you're talking about. If you read this journal by dragoneer you would see how half of your shit your upset about is really you being a drama freak and that the actions taken by the admins on this site were what should have happened.

oh and before you come back at me on how they deleted the journal with the Proof I'll just say taran shouldn't have made it an attack journal and then the admins wouldn't have had to take it down.

hmm trying to think of whatever stupidity you'll throw at me next so i can just answer it here... well I guess we can address the "random tweet" which was an attack againt the site, which made it very site related which is why they had to take actions against the wielder.

oh and finally speech is spelled speech not speach.
  cherryvincent

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
wow
  synwolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
THANK youuuuuu. Glad I wasn't the only one thinkin' it. Potential FA hack threat? SUPER important. Giving a psychotic stalker one less site he can use to harass an innocent woman? Naaaaah, no big deal.

The amount of flip-flopping and pick-and-choose enforcement that goes on in the admin seat of this site on a daily basis is staggering.
  synwolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Wow, get bent, buddy.

You're just another one of "those" people who have no actual substance to their argument, so you default to asinine bullcrap like "hurr ur a tr0ll, but also l00k hao cool n edgy i am wiff all mai witty sarcastic cum-bakks! XB".

Seriously. You have NO business arguing with people, because you FAIL at it. Horrifically.
  yak

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
One is a user vs. user issue. The other is a user vs. entire website full of innocent and uninvolved people.
The scope of potential damage is vastly different.
  craft

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Just clear things up. By definition he hasn't trolled anyone. It takes two to Tango
  synwolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Right, because a website getting attacked is CLEARLY more important than easing the fears of a woman whose RL safety is LEGITIMATELY in peril. Priorities. FA's got 'em in spades.
  theburningstars

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
kayla-na kayla-na was also just banned for posting a journal about Forge's perma-ban, asking for opinions. She wasn't siding with anybody, but was told she was inciting drama.

Picking and choosing which 'threats' to respond to. How professional.
  garekmaxwell

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
FA is not the police, their authority ends where the site ends.
The most they can do with issues in the physical world is provide the police with evidence to support arrest or even legal action through judges. It's unlikely they can even get support from authorities since they're calling their local police to report on something that may not even be happening in their own country.

They focus on what they can handle, so yes, as distant as it seems, they found site hacking a bigger issue. This isn't the definition of cruelty or carelessness either. This exact same prioritization happens in the physical world too. If you have no authority over something, you triage what you do. Trying to do something about what you have no control over is a waste of effort.

Banning someone here doesn't solve the stalking.
Banning someone here doesn't stop calls for hacking.
But it's all they can do because they have no authority outside this site.
  synwolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
By that definition, they should just stop suspending people for any sort of harassment, because, hey ... they can't stop people from harassing users on other sites, so why bother? =/

It's the PRINCIPLE that matters. I'm not saying one should be more or less important than the other. They should be EQUALLY important, and treated as such. Especially if they expect any sort of community support in the long-run. I mean, sure, there will always be the brown-nosers who will sing FA's praises no matter WHAT they do wrong, and defend their every mistake like the mindless sheep they are, but much as the administration would like to think these users make up the majority of their userbase, they'd be solely mistaken in thinking so. The vast majority of those displeased with the site will never openly say so. Not everyone feels safe vocalizing that sort of thing, or fears backlash from the brown-nosers. Those of us publicly speaking out in disapproval of FA make up only a VERY small portion of us who share similar mindsets.

So that being said, it VERY much matters the way the prioritize things, due to public image. One way hurts, the other helps.
  yak

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I'll be blunt on this one.

RL safety issues are not FA's jurisdiction. FA cares about itself, its users and what happens to them on its grounds where it has the power to exercise and enforce it's views of orderly behavior.
Every other place has its own rules and authorities, and issues taking place on their grounds should be sent to them; not furry website admins.
At most FA could have done was to ban the stalker's accounts on FA. How would that have solved anything regarding the accounts of stalking on other sites and most importantly - real life, where, according to your argument, the woman was legitimately threatened? Isn't that kind of way, way more important thing to be taking care of? And you talk of priorities.
Did you expect FA to somehow resolve that situation too?

I find it incredibly selfish of you to put yourself in a position where you declare one person's issue to be more important than the possibility of the entire website full of uninvolved people to lose access to their friends, assets and businesses. How can you even bring these two issues to the same level in order to compare them at all; it goes way beyond apples and oranges.

That said, please stop acting like FA completely ignored Taran's issue and instead "'punished the victim", became "sexist" and god knows what else it was accused of.
Administration was, taking in account FA's ability to process thousands of issues with a dozen people, working with Taran on their report. Up to the point where a third party intervened where it wasn't their place of doing so, and painted an overly saturated, one sided version of the events that incited all this drama.

If you consider replying to this post, please start with clarifying what you meant by "easing the fears", and what you expected FA to do in the first place.
  synwolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Wow. Where to even START with this mess?

For starters, as requested, I'll clarify. Imagine being the victim of someone who hounds your every step, writes rape fantasy stories about you and posts them online (as well as ALL your real-life personal information), and collects/posts up photographs of suits you own without having taken them him/herself. You don't think, for one moment, that it would have at least demonstrated SOME basic sense of compassion and caring on the victim's end for the FA administration to have at LEAST done what was possible to minimize her suffering from ITS end, and give her stalker one LESS site through which he could harass her? It's like owning a convenience store and adopting the stance of "since I can't stop people from robbing OTHER convenience stores, why bother taking any precautions to stop/prevent robberies at THIS one?" Doing SOMETHING is preferable to doing NOTHING. And even the smallest things matter, when you're the victim of sexual harassment.

If the staff had responded quicker, the off-site evidence would have still BEEN there to be able to assess, for starters. But what's TRULY upsetting is that even if that evidence HAD still been present and intact, Neer, in particular, was ADAMANTLY insistent that off-site evidence was NEVER accepted under ANY circumstances. EXACT verbage used. There was no mention ANYWHERE of there being "exceptions" or "only under specific circumstances". It was a very clearly defined all-or-nothing stance, and this latest stint involving TheWielder CRITICALLY damages any and all semblances of credibility FA still clung to, in the wake of the Taran incident. To us, the userbase, it puts forth the idea that FA's staff gets to pick and choose when and where it wants to use off-site activity as a basis for disciplinary action, which would imply that the protection of FA's community is subject to the individual whims of what each specific admin feels like deciding at any given moment in time. It's as if the AUP and TOS entirely don't matter, because anything is subject to change from one moment to the next. The amount of contradiction that occurs between admin statements on a regular basis on this site is staggering.

Either your AUP and TOS need HEAVY-duty retooling, or your staff needs to better learn how to address its users on these kinds of matters. Because in the end, you only make YOURSELVES end up looking, at worse, like liars and at best, as if you're very indecisive. The amount of damage this ENTIRE fiasco has done to FA's reputation is going to be felt for a LONG time to come, regardless of what you and the rest of your staff might choose to believe.
  chronidu

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Clearly Kayla was also more threatening than a sexual predator making rape threats to a user.

Seriously.


And yet I see there are still people stupid enough to be arguing anything being done here is remotely right or logical.
  theburningstars

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Hero worship. Ass kissing. The deaf leading the blind.
I could go on.
  garekmaxwell

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
They bother because they have a duty to protect the users of the site in any way they can, which is limited to banning or in the rare case being forthright with evidence to victims/authorities in order to support their cases when someone with authority over these manners is involved.

You're basically asking why FA admins won't proceed to take the law in their own hands and commit possibly illegal actions to punish users outside of the site, going as far as reaching in to the non-digital world. Apply this same rational to other large scale entities with no authority over other areas and see how well that works out. Heck, there's a whole can of worms on whether or not the US should just invade random countries "for their own good", but that's totally off topic. Specifically, we are talking about authority.

The supporters/detractors points are just red-herrings, distracting from the real issue of FA authority and where it stops. FA can only do so much, even if it is only symbolic in situations involving things happening outside of FA (in this case, banning, which is PR too). This isn't the only large scale entity that has no authority over something but does what it can within it's domain, and if you can't understand this then you'll always be upset with any large scale system in place.

When dealing with large scale entities, always approach everything in a bureaucratic, logical, rational, reasoned manner. It's a waste of time to be upset and argue they should do more where doing more would only do more harm.
  synwolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
DON'T put words in my mouth, please.

I never once said I expect the admins to take the law into their own hands. I expect them to take whatever action they CAN take on THEIR site. And as the incident with TheWielder has CLEARLY demonstrated, the whole "most of the evidence we were shown was off-site" excuse no longer holds any water. Not only CAN admins use off-site content as grounds for disciplinary action, they DO.

I never once claimed that I expect the FA admins to somehow become instant FBI agents, track down the stalker's RL address, kick in his door, and slap him in cuffs. What WAS expected of them was to get a stalker OFF their site, which they didn't do until WAY past too late. The damage was already done. They betrayed the trust of a victimized user beyond all hope of repair. They were PERFECTLY capable of acting before I literally SHOVED on-site evidence right under their noses, but they deliberately chose not to.

At the end of the day ... THAT is the REAL issue--they had the means to stop Taran's stalker BEFORE Qarrezel's Exodus journal blew the whole incident wide open, and it wasn't taken. THAT is what the community is having a hard time swallowing. Action was INTENTIONALLY not taken when it NEEDED to be taken. By the time the staff DID respond, the damage was already done.
  synwolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
The best part is that the ability to leave shouts on her page has been suspended for the duration of her suspension. And we all know perfectly well that this wasn't done to prevent harassing shouts left on her page.

Between suspending her (for posting a journal about merely ASKING what had happened to TheWielder, mind you) and now the gag order on her shoutbox, it's pretty clear that all they want to do is try and subdue, control and silence opposition at this point, in some sort of flimsy attempt at trying to stem the damage being done to the site's rep. The ironic part.../ Their efforts are only serving to make it WORSE.
  garekmaxwell

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
That you never specified what you wanted them to do results in me having to guess and interpret what you mean. Take that as a lesson to be more specific or you will frequently find people putting words in your mouth or coming to conclusions you did not intend. Stating repeatedly they should have done more and then say that they should have been faster are two different arguments. It's not my problem I had little to work with.

Off site evidence, as they've even stated themselves multiple times, they do not normally take as evidence pertaining to issues on the site. However, when there is a clear link between the people involved and it is under unique circumstances (such as an external threat to site stability), they will take it into account. Asking for others to cause harm to the site is pretty problematic and rather unique (even if I personally don't think he was serious about it). Had users actually taken it upon themselves to take the site down AND this was a site generating profits (arguable with ads), anyone inciting this could be legally held responsible for damages. It's a serious issue and under such unique circumstances evidence 'can' be taken into account. This happens even in courts where the laws state that normally X shouldn't be accepted, but under extraordinary circumstances a judge can permit the evidence if it has a place in the legal case in question.

Slow response to take action is common in many large scale entities and it's something they all continue to work on. That there are no harsh zero tolerance "suspend everyone involved first, ask questions later" types of rules, you end up with the need to investigate. This requires the victim to present their evidence and the accused to present theirs, either voluntarily or "involuntarily" by their own history such as inflammatory comments they made, journals, etc. This is not a fast process and can take days depending on the situation and how understaffed/busy they are with other issues, as was seen above and constantly complained about. Acting out because it's a slow process will only cause more trouble when it comes to investigations and can easily end up with the victim punished as well because, surprise surprise, causing problems because you have a problem does not make your case get treated any better. I've had problems before with large scale entities, and being nice got me a lot more than being a dick would have. It saved me money too.

Really, you will get this in any institution. You will not, for example, be treated better at a police station if after filing a report where nothing is done and you (or a friend) then proceed to take a loudspeaker in front of the police station and claim they never do their jobs.

As for intentional inaction, do you have evidence of this? Or are you claiming there was negligence from outside observation of the incident?
  rtdragon

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Wow he is pretty unhinged right there i wonder if he also said that on weasyl as well cause that right there would be a major issue.
  blazeignitus

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
If an exception can be made for trying to attack a website, why then can't an exception be made for compromising of personal information, menacing by stalking, and other such things that occur offsite? It's habit for a stalker to follow their victim to any place they feel safe in order to shatter that illusion of safety, to cause even more terror and psychological harm. TaranGryph was obviously distressed by this user suddenly appearing on this site and contacting her, and when evidence was shown she was basically told her evidence wasn't good enough because it was offsite.

Administrators of a site are similar to law enforcement in that one of their duties is to prevent violations/crimes from occurring period. If actions can be taken by law enforcement before an actual crime is committed in response to evidence of similar behavior occurring in other, repeated instances yet not explicitly related to the current one, why can't the same action be applied here?

This is probably just my sentiment due to being raised by a police lieutenant, but the best way to stop a violation/crime is to prevent it from occurring to begin with. To act as a deterrent. Preemptive measures can and have been effective in curbing behavior that is not conducive to an orderly and safe society. If I may make a suggestion, why not make a specific section of administration dedicated to this sort of action? In investigating patterns that have occurred offsite such as stalking/harassment against someone on this site and others, perpetrated by another person who is also on this site and is more than likely to perpetrate said behavior on this site as well?
  synwolf

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
There needs to be a "this" button, so I can mash it, like, 40-million times in response to this comment.
  yak

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
If an exception can be made for trying to attack a website

No exceptions were made.
Removing people who openly incite and support malicious behavior is a long established procedure governed by a different rule and enacted for different reasons that have nothing to do with harassment.
Why? The scope of one issue is two people, the other - the entire website of 780,264.



  blazeignitus

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Forgive me if I sound irreverent, as that is not my intention, but that is not how I or others might view this when, throughout the incident with TaranGryph, it was consistently stated that anything that happens offsite could not be used to as evidence punish a user as it falls out of your jurisdiction.

Yes, TheWielder's actions were just as serious and a criminal offense technically if someone actually did do it. I am not saying that the administration is wrong. What I am saying, however, is that when it was made abundantly clear that offsite content cannot be used to punish a user, and as stated by the administration a few times during the incident, with no exceptions this incident appears to be something that tramples on that concept.
  blazeignitus

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
In fact...

I can not realistically take action against somebody for what they do off site and do it in good conscious.
[sic] http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31836499

Question: do you legitimately want FA admins banning people for what other users do off site? Do you want admins from ANY site to do that?
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/.....9/#cid:3183626

Yes, the letter of the rules... which apply to FA, and only FA. Not what happens off site.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31836653

No. Because what happens off site is not my business. Or any admin's business. What you do off of this site is NOT for us to judge you on, no matter WHAT the circumstance.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31836765

I've just found four separate occasions in which it is either implied or outright stated that off site incidents and evidence cannot be used under ANY circumstances, straight from Dragoneer.


  blazeignitus

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Whoops, that second link was messed up. Here's the correct one: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/...../#cid:31836265
  yak

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
You are not as much irrelevant as you are misguided; for not applying appropriate contexts to the situations for which those statements were made and hold true for.
This is the bane of all attempts at logical conversations and is a source of great distress to the administration :(

These cases are different. They are governed by different set of rules, and fall under different jurisdictions.
When it comes to threats of legal or technological attacks against the entirely of FA, and, through service disruption the entirety of it's userbase - the admins are simply told to do one thing: ban people on the spot and notify superiors.
You threaten legal action against FA? Ban. Threaten to hack and take it down? Also a ban.

If one is that far gone that they decide to use those kinds of arguments then they've probably already made up their mind about leaving anyway.
Heat of the moment? Though terribly frustrating to deal with, can be understandable, and even forgivable; unless you've already done that before and have been given a second chance.
Be a man, apologize and appeal your ban.

In case of TheWielder:
* is already a repeat offender with six documented accounts of verbal abuse, callouts, encouraging users to attack others and generally inciting drama on hot topics
* has already been given a "second chance"
* recent conduct towards administration has been all but civil
  blazeignitus

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Thank you for elaborating, I understand the situation now, I believe. I was simply puzzled as, when there were those statements made by Dragoneer, and then this ban it seemed as if it was something that was contradictory. Knowing now that it's handled by a different regulation however clears things up for me.
  kayla-na

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
That was a post out of rage, and it was done off-site. :\
  red13nanaki

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Yeah it's amazing that you will go after them and take action for something like that, but when it comes to him telling people to attack a single user nothing is done about it.
  timoran

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Attacking Women = Okay
Attacking FA = Permaban
  yarbro

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
That is what troubling out the statement. :/ I think that the staff should used the off-site information. FA does, to a degree- they are close with Artist Beware and the two tend to exchange information about behaviors.
  yarbro

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
*About the statement
  yarbro

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
And Chewfox's interview and off site comments.,, :/
  ginzburg

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
as much as I enjoyed chewfox I did hear she was threatening to sue the site so that does take it back to being site related.
  willowwulf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I assume that's to say, they can't really use evidence against a user on FA if you use information from another site. Because they have no evidence of any activity within their own domain

Kind of like reporting a murder in another state to your state police I'd imagine

But hey, that's just what it sounds like
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Basically, yes.
  purplepardus

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Yeah i read the journal unfortunate the user felt cornered abandoned and betrayed which i relate to. I think answering her ticket sooner then a week later would have helped to at least inform her you were looking into it. I know when i was harrassed i eventually just gave up and took a week vacation from FA was hard to come back but i did. Needs work hehe i think it was handled right just a tad to slow so it escalated.
  kets

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I asked this in the huge journal entry the other day, but since it probably got lost in the flood of comments and I'm still kinda curious, this seems like a good time to ask again!

Since admins can access journal entries they've removed, are they able to access shouts left on pages that were removed by the page owner? The stalker guy posted a shout around the end of December (between the 28th and 30th is the best I can narrow it down) on Qarrezel's page which essentially asked her to verify Taran's name and address, both of which he posted where pretty much anyone browsing there could see! It was removed immediately after she was notified about it, since keeping it on display for an unknown extended amount of time until staff was able to notice and respond to a support ticket would have seemed a bit risky.

That *could* be why Qarrezel put so much interest in the situation, along with it starting during a time that Taran was absent from the site for an unusually long amount of time and had no contact even with friends. This part's just a guess though, since other reasons can easily be factored in/out/above/below/potato/etc..
  willowwulf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
If the victim knew the stalker IRL, instead of filing a complaint with FA and not taking the suggested actions, they should have skipped all that and just called the police. Because from what I've read, they met at Eurofurence. :/

And honestly I think people are a little too quick to just to conclusions to prove how horrible and terrible the site is and give them more justification to leave. They forget that the admins are people too it almost seems like
  ladyfaith

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Just an idal thought, would this be thought of as a call out journal because it mentions Quzzearal by name?
  zidders

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I don't think it counts if the user has been banned.
  ladyfaith

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
she has not been banned tho, just left to use other sites. And with that in mind, is it then ok for me to do call out journals on a person tho is no longer here to defend themselves? These are all things I would really like to see covered in a general use, FaQ or TOS change.
  Comment hidden by its owner
  junowolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
That would depend, one what they're being called out for?

Simply mentioning people in a journal isn't in itself against the ToS. Getting people to steam roll someone is.
  ladyfaith

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
On that note, would that then make people who have wight night attachments their fan base responsible for their fans actions, even if they did not say "go flame X?" I'm bringing this up mostly because if its not specified in the TOS already, I would really love to see it be done once the TOS gets revised. I think clarifying issues like that would really help out things when it comes it the "can I or can I not report this?"
  junowolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
That should be up to the common sense of the user. Also, people mentioned in this journal are suspended/banned.
  ladyfaith

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
she has not been banned tho, just left to use other sites. And with that in mind, is it then ok for me to do call out journals on a person tho is no longer here to defend themselves? These are all things I would really like to see covered in a general use, FaQ or TOS change.

and as we have seen from this, i really don't think it SHOULD be left up too the user. I think the harassment section of the TOS will help greatly in this area, but I do worry that there might still be a lot of grey that could be addressed.
  junowolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
You'll never cover all possible cases with the rules, and that's where the admins come in to make decisions that are outside the scope of the rules. I really do think the admins did what could possibly be expected of them in this situation.
  zidders

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I agree
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I think that depends on the intent of the journal, Neer is taking the time to explain mistakes in understanding, he's not dropping names to place blame which might direct people to harass another user.
  ladyfaith

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
good point! like I said, not accusing anyone here, just bringing up something that I had been thinking about since the early start of this drama. Especially when it comes to people wight knighting a user.
  bellecandie

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
The important thing here is that there is recognition that the handling of the situation was best and that steps are being taken to address these problems so this will hopefully not happen in the future. Really that is the best outcome we can have from the incident.

Thank you for all the clarification from FA side of things 'neer; appreciated.
  spottycat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Pretty much everything in your journal is as I expected the situation actually was.

Mob mentality is some scary shit.
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Was the same for me as well. I had an inkling of what was going on, but man wading through all the Bullshit can be damn near impossible at times when so many people go batshit insane with the mountains made from mole hills.
  spottycat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
It was getting so bad with people so angry by default that you couldn't have anything resembling a rational conversation about it, because you weren't supposed to approach the situation with a level head... you were supposed to join the party torch in hand.

I hate that shit. That right there is what makes me angry.
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Eyup, at that point you pretty much have to sit and wait for journals like this to come up so that the angry pitchforks can take a moment to sit the fuck down and hear the other side of the story.
  azzyblue

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Agreed, so hard.
  kiwaku

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
You'd think folks would learn after enough of these kinds of events not
to grab the torches and pitchforks at the first sign of trouble. It's as if
they are afraid of getting to the stake-burning late.
  duo

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I DEMAND REPARATIONS!
For no real reason other then I want to expand my classic video game collection.

Daddy wants some more Sega games.
  prannon

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Clarification enough for me. I work QA at a web hosting company and anything that involves accusations of abuse or results in a ban needs to be taken seriously, meaning that protection of the victim needs to be involved as much as explicit evidence implicating the would-be stalker.

Based on what was said here, the site's staff responded appropriately and a brash action on the part of the third party is what allowed this to get out of control.
  unyko

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Man, thank you. <3 People are so quick to jump to conclusions, especially when they don't have all the facts. >.<

I read all those comments on Qarrezel's journal wondering why no one even suggested that the admins may have been looking into the issue (because we, as non-admin-types, can't see what they're doing behind the scenes), and not just sitting on their hands. People need to understand that things like this have to be handled gently. Because, while we don't want a false negative (a guilty person going free), we definitely don't ever want to see a false positive (an innocent person being punished unjustly).

I can only imagine the drama that would erupt if anyone was ever erroneously banned because the judgement was rushed just to placate the accuser. *eyeroll*
  decker

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Because there were comments on the journal left by Dragoneer that stated that things that happen off-site are none of their business. The implication of this is that they would not even be looking in to the issue, full stop.

That's what I got from that statement and that's what I thought was way out of line.

He made no mention of looking into the issue while it was happening, only after the fact in this journal has he actually said it was being looked into.
  decker

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I'm pretty sure I didn't make this comment in reply to you so why is it replying to you? Wow, slowclap.gif
  driftlock

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Glad I was patient for the clarification. I do hope things go more smoothly thought when issues like this may come up in the future, from both sides. All it takes it one person taking something a certain way and you've got people bandwagoning left and right...
  graypython

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Dragoneer, I have a problem with what you said "* The Issue With Evidence -- The evidence of stalking was primarily pointing at actions that occurred on Deviantart.com and Flashback.org. When we are presented with information off-site we /very rarely/ take action on it, and here's why: we have NO WAY to verify the users' identities. We have to give users the benefit of the doubt. Did somebody make an account on Site X to harass the user, and implicate them in the issue? Is it legit, or just an impostor?". Can I contact you via PM's?
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Yes, you can.
  mintsmoker

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Such is the life of an admin, people will allways demand perfection but alas we will never achieve that. As long as you don't throw personal emotions into the equation and just use what professional standards you have as a leader of a website where 80% of the population will ass lick people who can draw like gods i will personally not interfere.

In this case i did read the journal and she should of blocked the user in question, noted the evidence personally such as screen shots and stuff then when admins were ready to take action report it to her fans. A mistake anyone could make but there is nobody to blame but our selves.
  jengo

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
people is just crazy and like to jump in conclusions and even insult people that is working for free... good think it's solved now
  drgn8d

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This is exactly what I figured out happened, from reading about 20 journals and a multitude of comments.

It's frustrating when people make an opinion without reading as much information as they can about an issue.
  umbrii

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Unfortunately even in real life stalking is ridiculously hard to prove. It's obviously predatory behavior from the victim's point of view and it can be debilitating when you have a determined stalker, but any single thing a stalker does usually isn't illegal; rather, it's the sum of all the parts combined that show stalking behavior. Even if you go to the police they usually won't be able to do much except tell you to keep a record of everything and keep them updated... they likely can't help you until things escalate.

It's unfortunate things blew up like this :/ Stalking is the type of situation where the victim can't just tell the admins and have them take action, the victim and the staff need to work with each other to get things done. It's a complicated matter.
  familiar

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
furries.
  zarphus

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
this is what happens when an artist with popularity because of their artistic talent throws their weight around as an influence. a thousand people blindly follow, regardless of whether the information is fact.

there's a game i want to see make it on steam's greenlight. (jets 'n' guns) i should just show it to a bunch of popular artists and get one to make a journal telling everyone to upvote it xD
  wolfeedarkfang

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I've been staying out of it because it's just another episode of "How the stomach turns" to me. It's always the story; some people whine about how things work around here, they run to some other art site, eventually getting bored due to lack of as much free porn, then they come home. lol
  azzyblue

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I'll say that if I ever wanted to be a site admin, that desire is gone now, haha. You guys have your work cut out for you!

This whole craziness could've gone better, but you (general you. As in everyone. I'm picking no sides) live and learn. We're all human. Shit happens and you move on -- older, wiser, and with an extra few gray hairs. >.>

Hope the move went well, and good luck with the new job!


  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
If anything it shows that if you're handling a TT ... god help you if you're not F5'ing every moment and staying at your desk until it's handled fully, or else something may explode the moment you go to the bathroom.
  azzyblue

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
What are you talking about? Admins aren't allowed to have lives or bodily functions! They'll sit there and handle my whining and like it or pee themselves trying!

XD
  nestama

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Surely they have drinking birds to handle the F5 spam :P
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Just duct tape a couple kiriban hunters to their keyboard when they go pee
  nestama

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Probably wouldn't work with kiriban hunters. They usually want to have a chance in winning something... right?
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Folks like myself sometimes just do it for the fun of it! So ya never know!
  charem

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I already figured this is how it all went down, from the facts I ran into about it when I learned of it. It's really stupid that people are so eager to use events like this to attack staff, when they don't at ALL deserve it.

I honestly suspect very few people who got up in arms about Tarangryph's plight actually did it for her, or even cared much about her. They just were latching on to a new reason to attack staff like the hateful people they are.
  chrisdragon

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This incident reminds me on the entire debacle with Zaush a couple of years ago.
  anekmehkt

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
What happened with that situation? (Note me if you prefer).
  chrisdragon

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Allegedly Zaush was protected and the victim asked to be hush-hush(?) or something. Only Dragoneer can clarify on this, I don't know all the details so I am going on partial information.
  drayk

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Sounds like another "This is a matter for the police, Please go take it to the police."
  anekmehkt

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Oh wow, I hope things got handled correctly with that.
  vinvulpis

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This is immediately what came to my mind. Hahah.
  insomniacovrlrd

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
WELL this would explain why i haven't heard anything about that advertisement i want to put up.
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
It's been a rough few days. Expect responses tomorrow.
  insomniacovrlrd

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
project runs for another while, it's cool. Get back to me when you've got time to~
  kitoth

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I am glad that you were able to explain what went on in a time line way. I always here in journals since i have been here about you being a bad person and even many times hearing you should be gone from the site. but it amazes me how many on here do not realize some crucial facts:

1: if i am not mistaken you own\co-own the hard drives and other hardware as well as created this site.

2: You don't charge any user to join this site, hence you and probably some of the admins keep this site running with your own money.

3: If you were really some mean person and all this got to you what is stopping you from just closing the site without notice.

4: You do not respond to all Trouble tickets, you have admins who help(god forbid if you had too)

5: In this case what i got was until the alt account was brought forward you really had no legal right to involve yourself based on something that went on, on another site which has its own staff.

6: finally you and the admin team made rules for this site, and many may disagree with me on this but the person who was being stalked broke a rule before the stalker did, as did the friend. in my opinion no one is is exempt from rules put up on a site. it may be fine to warn others but there are ways of doing it without breaking rules.

That is my take on all this.

Only other thing to add is for me it will be some annoyance for those i watch and left without letting those who watch them know or even those who did because before Fa got more into being the hub for artwork and such, VCL was a place i went, now got artist on Da, sofurry, tumblr, blogspot, and not weasly as well as here. If those who want people to watch them move around and also rename themselves on many sites, its hard for some to really follow them.
  athelind

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Can I fave a journal yet?
  habsburg-chin

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
You can on Weasyl, but not on FA. :)
  tgreyfox

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Well said. Keep up the good work.
  drawwithlaura

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I understand that the event that occurred was very scary for the user(s) involved, but I fail to see how that warrants leaving FA (especially if most of the harassment was off-site) and before the admins even get a chance to help.

It's a shame that people pounce on issues so quickly, sometimes it seems as if there's little admins can do to make everyone happy.

It's very good to know that you're updating the code of conduct, I'm sure the users will feel much safer now :)
  sebek5

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Well at least that's all solved. I was getting tired of hearing about all these stupid weasyl accounts opening. >.> I heard it's not that good anyway, you could get malware from there.
  flamingdragon

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
so in short, people jumped to action on an overdoing it level, and everyone who read it was thusly misinformed and butthurt over things X_X this is why i always approach such situations with mountains of salt ready, because its better to find out the TRUTH then jump to action, and make a complete ASS out of myself.....with all those people gone, if they stay, maybe more will get done without so many complainers X_X
  aticston

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
So let me get this straight

This whole hububub was not because you guys didn't react, but because you didn't react instantly/irrationally/fast enough?

Aren't all the staff at FA volunteers for the most part? I don't even see real life police/judges react to stalking claims in less then two weeks unless your life is danger

Can we stop with this sensationalist crap? Please? Everyone is not the be all and center all of their universe, they all got their own problems and things to deal with.

From what I am reading here the FA staff was acting as impartially as they could have -IE- "We need evidence to progress this further" and not jumping the gun here, what do you want them to do, instantly ban somebody the moment somebody goes "They're a meany!"

I'm sure this whole thing as prompted a mass wave of "THAT'S IT, PACK YOUR BAGS, I'M GOING TO X" (X being the flavor of the month new furry art site) crap I see going around, which is just as irrational.

I don't even know how Dragoneer got pulled into this, or the admins involved. I mean, christ, calm down. these people got lives too you know, they all have jobs and personal lives, they can't drop everything the second you have a problem with something or someone. From what I see Dragoneer got pulled into this whole crapfest because apparently his "ADMINS ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH!" and other crap.

Only immaturity I see here is from qarrezel jumping the gun completely and proclaiming this and that.

Why the heck when is there drama involved it -ALWAYS- has to involve FA or the FA staff? Are people so incapable of handling their own problems and issues? If somebody is following you online and you don't want them talking to you, block them, if they get around the block, report X to staff and -BE PATIENT-, there is not some greater cosmic conspiracy against you to screw you over.
  thora

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Exactly. How much would people complain if the mods were ban happy and banned first and asked questions later? (inb4 someone claims that's how the mods are)

They know they'll get their asses handed to them for jumping the gun on a ban. They also know that they'll get chewed the fuck out if they don't react quickly enough. Why anyone would want to be a volunteer moderator is beyond me. A lot of work, a lot of drama, and no reward. I have respect for the people who do it.
  kandikatkreations

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This!
  aticston

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Call out journals are against site rules, that's the beginning and end to it.

I don't like it either sometimes, cause I'll want to talk about my personal experiences I've had with people in the furry community and its gagged lip time, but I can see why they do it, less work for the mods and it helps keep it civil even when we at the time may not be civil

That said, offsite harassment is exactly that, offsite, what you do elsewhere should be taken into consideration, but not be the rule of dealing with internal problems. The admins gathering information about all of this was the correct action, a mindless ban would not have been.

Again, people need to be patient, there is not some greater cosmic force aiming to screw you over, things take time

From what I am reading off qarrezel's current journal is, she learned nothing from all of this!

Completely jumping the gun, flying off the handle, pointing fingers at the admins and Dragoneer, she still believes she's in the right over all this, and this same irrational hatred.

Even the quote she posted "Out of context" isn't even woefully out of context, its dragoneer stating outright facts:

1) Leaving FA over this is "silly" (My words).

2) If it happens on FA, it will happen on any site.

3) Dragoneer firmly believes in his admins, if they chose not to ban fredriksam at the moment, they probably had good reason to not ban him at the moment.

Then the rest of the journal turns into outright strawman attack against dragoneer "Oh he won't ban the stalker cause he protects stalkers cause it can happen anywhere!"

Get off your damn high horse, this is like listening to something a feminist says, and the second you don't agree with them "Piss off misogynist scum!", just because you didn't hear what you wanted to hear does not make your debating opponent inherently evil, it just means they have a different opinion then you.

This whole blow up is just childish, I see no logic at work here, just finger pointing, screaming and maybe a few tears, I dunno how Dragoneer acts in private but his public face here has been respectable, maybe in the privacy of his home he's punching pillows I dunno but here he's been level headed.

All I see out of this is like, its when I play Planetside 2 and see a hacker, it pissed me off, it boils my blood, it makes me seethe with rage, I want them gone and I want them gone now. I report them, and then I'm forced to sit and wait and watch these hackers play for sometimes WEEKS longer before they finally get banned, but that's how the system works, these admins deal with thousands of problems a day, and I am but a singular issue out of those thousands, and at the moment yeah I am mad I am angry I am upset and I want it fixed -NOW-, but there's nothing I can do but wait.

And yeah it sucks to see somebody having the time of their life by ruining my and everyone else that's not on their team fun, but I suck it up and I keep playing, I don't call all the admins dickbags and "I'M LEAVING PLANETSIDE 2!" statements, if I leave I'll leave, if I stay I'll stay.

I dunno what else to say, this is probably not the last time FA admins don't react at the crack of a whip and we'll all be here again watching people scream bloody murder and favoritism and what not.

Just my two more cents on this issue.
  thora

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
"When we are presented with information off-site we /very rarely/ take action on it, and here's why: we have NO WAY to verify the users' identities. We have to give users the benefit of the doubt. Did somebody make an account on Site X to harass the user, and implicate them in the issue? Is it legit, or just an impostor?

We have NO WAY of verifying what's going on behind the scenes."

Exactly.

People do shit like this all the time to try to ruin people's reputations (create accounts to fool people into believing they're someone that they are not). It's amazing how many people here are ignorant to that fact.

To be honest, I knew that shitstorm journal was written before there was a chance at complete conflict resolution. I am glad you posted the dates so people could see how fast that dramatic journal was created and how little time you guys had to deal with the issue. I personally think that her journal was a call out journal as well and should've been deleted. But at that point it would've been met with so much "oooo da adminz r being boolies" comments that it's almost worth leaving.

The staff has helped me out when I submit tickets. Most of them (sans maybe 4 tickets) have been dealt with same day or within 24 hours. Only once did I have an issue with a staff member that made me feel they were lazy or otherwise uninterested in trying to remove traced clip art. But, eh. It didn't bother me enough to even have ill feelings against them. hell, I don't even remember their name at this point.

Thanks for posting this and for sharing your side of it. If people were that willing to jump ship without seeing both sides, then chances are they really didn't want to be a member of FA anyways. And I'm willing to bet 85% will come back. If not 99%. Because anyone who goes SO FAR out of their way to say they're quitting 4evarr typically is back within a week. If they were serious about leaving, they'd just go. FA is one of the most popular furry websites out there. Whenever I see people linking to furry art (or drama, lol) it's always an FA link. Not Weasyl, not SF, not DA... sometimes Inkbunny... but those drama things tend to be geared towards one thing lol.

I guess the TL;DR here is: Thanks for posting, and for saying what you did to broadcast a better "full picture" of this situation that has run rampant.
  kandikatkreations

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This.
  sargon

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
The sheer level of entitlement people exhibit toward FA... or any other volunteer efforts for the benefit of the public for that matter... is just sickening.

Thank you, Dragoneer and all of the volunteers that keep FA running, for putting up with tons of crap you don't deserve so that I can enjoy my furry porn.
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Let this be a lesson to all if us...if a friend is having issues and is talking with admins...MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS AND DONT GET INVOLVED. OT DOES NOTHING BUT CAUSE PROBLEMS GOR EVERYONE AND CAUSES MORE DRAMA THAN IS NEEDED. If I was my immature self still that I was when I first signed up...I would be sending a very long and hateful pm to Quar on weasyl, but to do so would just be against everything that neer just said. I just hope she comes back here and reads this some day and realizes how stupid she was.

Well done Neer, im glad you could set things right.
  Comment hidden by its owner
  bahamutdragons

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Despite the clarification, I still sympathize more with Tarangryph than the admins. I'm not saying it's easy to administrate a website of this size, but if you felt attacked, and here I mean REALLY attacked, and then received those kinds of responses from the admins as well, that would certainly justify the drama behind it. I've been on the receiving end of admins acting against me, in my case removing a piece of my work from my gallery, no warning, no conversation, boom I'm the one who's wrong. I feel like there's a lot of "let's act now and consider the impact of our actions later".

It's all about perspective. I wasn't there for either case. But the bottom line, Tarangryph felt attacked, posted a TT, didn't feel responded to, posted a journal, journal was deleted which, come on, that feels like just more oil on the fire. I completely agree with Qarrezel's stance, I don't feel she should have been coming to the admins, the admins should have communicated better with Tarangryph from the get-go. And telling her "well if it happens again, let us know" is a horrible thing to say to someone who's been stalked for this long.
  tyroo

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
"The evidence of stalking was primarily pointing at actions that occurred on Deviantart.com and Flashback.org. When we are presented with information off-site we /very rarely/ take action on it, and here's why: we have NO WAY to verify the users' identities. We have to give users the benefit of the doubt. Did somebody make an account on Site X to harass the user, and implicate them in the issue? Is it legit, or just an impostor?

...The evidence we had on FA against Fredriksam as a stalker was questionable. We could see behavior on FA that raised eyebrows, but was not enough to say "Yes, this is a stalker, no question." Hence the reason we suggested Taran block the user and to contact us if he tried anything (anything at all) to get around it.

That said, in the end, we did find evidence to support the claims against Fredriksam (and his alt account). If we had found evidence of the alt account up front, we would have banned the user immediately. The alt account was not brought to our attention until a user notified us. Had we had this information up front, we would have banned them on the spot."

Did you not read this, or are you choosing to ignore reason?
Imagine if they had jumped to banning the user only to find out later that it was a hoax. Sounds a lot like the "let's act now and consider the impact of our actions later" thing you weren't too happy about.
  rika

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I shall post a public, seemingly hopeful comment about the direction of the site
and immediately follow it with a negative spiteful comment contradicting the previous one to show just how snarky/edgy I really am.
  cerberusnl

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Then I shall make a comment that makes no sense and PERMABAN YOU because I veel like it :V

Yes, feel with a "v", 'cause I don't care about typo's.
  webster

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
We have left over brownies and cookies after this weekend's party. Want some?
  chazpup

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
yes, yes i do. Foxes love cookies and brownies, its a scientifically proven fact.
  webster

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Who're you? ._.
  chazpup

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I am me. You offered cookies and brownies, I accepted. :p
  chillchell

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Well said!
  sagegalo

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Trill
  kraminian91

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Glad to hear both sides of the story finally. While there was a right for the victim to complain, the third intervention really threw it all into Hell for both ends.
Reminds me of how World War I started...and my goodness has this drama war imitated it perfectly as well.
  obsidianwolfess

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Amazing how people came to their own conclusions without hearing both sides. -_-; Your side of the story makes a LOT more sense.

I'm sticking by my original thoughts. If that person was being stalked as maliciously as Q claims, they should have been dealing with the police, not website admins. (Especially if most of the stalking was through DeviantArt. Good god! Shouldn't they have contacted DA admins then???)
  geemo

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
How do any admins not go crazy from paranoia and checking their messages constantly? I'd be afraid this sort of thing would happen every day if I were running things and I'd never be able to stay on top of any of it. Talk about stress.
  Comment hidden by the Administration
  elicia

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Does this mean we may see journals that aren't about leaving fa because of something that happened to a person their friend knows?

A horrid thing indeed but admins can only do so much. So ends another chapter in as the hamster wheel turns..
  rupert

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
You should make me an admin. Banotter the otter.
  summercat

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
>:|
  marcan

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I haven't been following the issue nowhere except for some tweets and this journal, but I wonder if communication on the site is working "fine" in various aspects. Admins have their beloved tickets made specifically for the purpose of reporting issues, but other than that, it may be hard to follow certain conversations or issues, because I don't remember getting an EMAIL with any kind of notification when I get some reply to a note, ticket or whatever I find important to me. Also, we tend to watch numerous accounts without any filtering options, so I get like few hundred journals a day out of which I'm interested in only few of them.

As for the case, any external evidence raises another kind of issue - identity theft and forgery, in order to harass otherwise legit people. When one can't go though the door, they try through the window or the basement, just for the sake of reaching some sick goals. Blah. Good that the case seem to be solved now.
  animal16365

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
The original journal didnt start this whole problem. It was the third party journal that got this problem to were it is now.
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Right, which is what we were stating. Nothing against Taran.
  theherooffa

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
  guggles

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I honestly just think people wanted an excuse to leave and Weasyl's open beta became available at the right time. Both sides handled the situation pretty horribly, but at least now everyone should know what to do if this kind of thing happens again.

A lot of people might be moving to Weasyl now, and will probably continue considering how nice it is, but many people (including myself) are fine uploading to and keeping track of multiple sites. I doubt much will be lost because of this happening.
  irime

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Weasyl has many nice features, but they're beta. They may not be able to handle the heavier load on their server.. and it IS a beta site and needs a lot of tweaks before it's 'final'. Perhaps it will work out well, and perhaps it won't. Only time will tell. I plan to continue to use both FA and Weasyl, as I have been for a few months.
  guggles

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I definitely agree, it looks promising but we'll have to see how it turns out in the end.
  aurion-magnus

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
SO MANY COMMENTS.

I don't know if it's mentioned anywhere above, but if I may suggest; is there perhaps some chance to create a new rule that would allow for the recognition between a callout journal and a warning journal? I know that there's a fine line there but the differences wouldn't be hard to recognize.

Callout journal: Clear harrassment/bashing/ ect of another user that could be considered harmful to their reputation/name/ect.
Warning journal: Shows accecptable proof/evidence of some kind that warns users against another person of things such as theft/fraud/ect.

I really feel like this would greatly help out the community and would definatly help spread word fast about frauds. I know many people that've sent money for a comission or plush only to not recieve anything EVER. Same goes for artists being comissioned as well; they finish the art only to never recieve their money. This really hurts people that work hard for their earnings but fond out too late about who they're working with.

But it's just a suggestion after all; I just felt it would fit here since there is the mention of what the victim did with her journal.
  irime

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
That creates a FINE line for people to ride and abuse. Both sides then make these journals, and one may be false.. and then the admins and mods have to "judge" and determine who is warning, and who is "calling out" with lies. I fully support their continued rule of no callouts.
  xoagray

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
if drama = true then beer and popcorn
if drama = false then beer
  tyroo

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Conspiracy Keanu:
What if Weasyl fabricated this whole incident
So that people would rush over to their new open beta?
  scotty-furs

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Then who ever was heading the whole thing deserves a sturdy handshake.
  jcoyougar

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
(This is my only response.)

While I think that what happened could have been avoided, the fact of the matter was that the response time was too slow. Understanding that the admins are volunteers, if they are helping someone they need to be able to keep constant update on the issue they are dealing with. While travel and personal lives come into play; when an admin or mod takes the responsibility of helping someone who is making a claim that can potentially be life threatening tabs need to be kept. Personally I believe that the admins first response should have been to encourage the victim to contact the local police while simultaneously contacting the FBI while taking the artists state and town of residence down so that it can be looked into. The FBI have a division specifically for cyber crimes and they take threats seriously. The assailant would have been placed on a watch list and should they have tried anything, the FBI would have done something. Many steps could have been taken to prevent the storm that happened. A life was, and still might be, legitimately in danger.

I respect the admins in that it is hard to run a site and not be paid for it. However, I feel that there could have been more done to help the victim and to prevent the drama that happened. I feel that this post is merely a way to save face. I feel that the journal that had evidence could have been turned over to the proper authorities. There are a great many things that I feel. Though paramount to all of it I feel that this website has so much potential should there be a proper test or requirement for being an admin/mod other than; knowing the right people, being an enthusiastic member of the fandom, or just plain being very out spoken. It takes more than anyone realizes to help others with problems such as this. I personally blame no one for the drama. I only ask that in the future there be a proper test or list of requirements for being an admin that include a basic sense of empathy and social skill that could be used to help the people of this site.

-Shadow
  Comment hidden by its owner
  lunaticmoth

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This is the most thoughtful reply I've seen in this whole lot.
  Comment hidden by its owner
  deusexkittycoon

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
In a humble person's opinion I'd just like to share a word on behalf of all parties.

Sometimes we make poor decisions and misconceptions, I can agree by far that everyone needs to sort out their own and get along. There is much to doodle and create than to sit here and cry over spilled milk. At least, until another time you will know how to exactly handle your situation better. Just a little advice, Take your time and draw no conclusions, if that cannot be done at least reach a mutual understanding. In the mean time, we can take a step down to see how we can all get along better okay?
  scotty-furs

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Finally, the end of the rainbow. Now where's the gold?
  shadowhaven0

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I had a good run on this site, but I just don't think FA is the place to be. Too many problems and not enough of interest for what I do here. It was a lot of factors, plus this hubbub, and other things as well, that have led me to wanting to leave. Nothing against anyone, I just don't feel right on some things. Meh. Good luck with everything and hope things turn out better en future.
  kamunt

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Dragoneer, I feel as though your Grumpy Cat avatar pretty adequately describes this entire thing.
  tyroo

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I've personally never filed a report so I don't know all the workings of it, but perhaps an urgency ranking could be established with the tickets by the reporting user. It could be something along the lines of requesting the user to rank the urgency of the issue giving some guidelines as to what is urgent or not say like High: (stalking, abuse, harassment), Medium: (stolen art, impersonating), and Low: (I have no idea what people complain about). Such a system may facilitate taking care of dire issues such as this before the incident gets out of control due to impatient users taking matters into their own hands.

Idk, just something I thought of :3
  tyroo

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Haha, just checked the whole report thing for the first time, glad it's already in place ^-^;
  rienkarrot

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
As I said to others who brought it up, everything I read (including an offsite post copy-pasting the infamous journal) sounded one-sided and out of context. Since everything you say gets brought up so publicly, I have plenty of examples of how you handle issues, and felt this quote sounded like an answer to a very specific question (whether or not the moderator was in the wrong). I'm glad you posted an official journal. I have felt very neutral about this whole thing, but I am kind of getting annoyed at all the gallery nuking going on, just because I hate seeing 5 years of art and comments permanently gone...
Point is, never once did I hear anyone say any user involved took any action to protect themselves other than a trouble ticket. Now rumors are flying that "FA protects rapists" ....... I really hope this stops for the sake of how harmful misinformation can be in this digital age.

I personally have been on the receiving side of many in-person stalkers, and every site I have been a member of has gone above and beyond my expectations in helping to protect me from inappropriate or disturbing posts.
Thing is, I followed protocol. First I asked the users to stop. Then I blocked them on all sites. Then I contacted each site's moderators after continued block evasions and linked them to proof (submissions, shouts, etc from stalker) and not surprisingly, all the sites banned or deleted all accounts of the stalkers.
The worst (not involving FA) required a call to the police, after all that was completed. A restraining order soon followed and I felt completely safe again. I do not fool myself into thinking web sites are going to be my holy saviors for all aspects of stalker actions - I see sites as businesses that value customer satisfaction, and I see FA also values a sensation of community.

As a user who experiences in-person and onsite stalking, I would like to state that Dragoneer and FA in general has never once denied or scoffed my personal trouble tickets or communications. Blocking alone has, in fact, fixed 99% of my problems with users, with the remaining 1% involving moderation deleting the offensive or disturbing posts of the stalkers, which has always been the outcome when I link moderators to the posts.
  nicthalon

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Yup, if Taran had simply done as the admin suggested and blocked, the alt account would have been found sooner and the whole thing would have been over before it could blow up.
  kandikatkreations

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
All of this. Well put.
  nicthalon

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
So basically, if Taran had done as the admin suggested and block the stalker in the first place, and if the 3rd party had kept their uninformed mouth shut, the guy would have tried something on his alt account sooner, gotten banned, and everybody would have been hailing the admins for a job well done. Instead, we get clusterfuck central.

I don't know anybody involved. I watch some artists who weighed in on both sides. Once the shit hit the fan, it took me all of about 5 minutes to get both sides of it and see that the admins were doing what they could based on the lack of actual FurAffinity on-site evidence, and banned the stalker immediately after he did something wrong here.

I must have posted a dozen times replying to people that they need to get both sides before blowing up, but that doesn't let them get their daily dose of drama.
  samiitiger

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I grok.

As someone who is usually on the investigative end of things, I don't see any issues with how you and your team conducted this. Issues will always come up, and people will bitch and moan. You continually have my gratitude and appreciation.
  silverautomatic

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
+1
  hisana

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
The only issues I see are unavoidable. Lots of TT's are problems. How can you mark them as high or low priority?
They did the best they could.
  samiitiger

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I figure that any issue is a priority, personally. Some need a bit more immediate attention, and the person submitting that should make an honest judgment call on it.

From my understanding of the situation, there was a problem identified, but instead of allowing the site admins to take care of it, pitchforks and torches were gathered and the mess became a much larger issue than it should have been. People, in general, forget that Site Admins have lives, too. Especially when it is a volunteer effort, real life comes first. So, things take time. Site admins also have the "wonderful" task of being Loss Prevention, as well. Investigating claims, following up on them, and then enforcing site policies. It's not the easiest of roles, and it's one where they have earned my respect on. I do that for my day job; they do it solely on a volunteer basis.
  thewerewolf

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
What amuses/amazes me?

I wrote a post criticising people for being all dramallama...

And I pretty much hit every aspect of what actually happened - without knowing *anything* about what happened.

Dear gods - furries are a predictable lot. :)
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
no just the dumb ones ...
  kandikatkreations

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Yeah. As soon as I saw the journal from Quarrazel, I turned and laid the whole situation on the table to my mate, and nailed it on the head as to exactly what was going on, without knowing the full situation, just like you did. For shame furries. For shame.... SMH
  technologic-skies

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Coming to such a conclusion isn't even a major feat of the mind or require more than the typical amount of brain power used in a day. All of this goes to say a lot about mob mentalities... and immediate, overly-emotional responses.
  fengzhou

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I hate to say it but.. This is what I told people and I got the gender card chucked at me.. I also pointed out that cliques tend to cause things to EXPLODE massively.. I really wish (friend or not) people to keep their noses in their own business until you get final judgement and uncover things proper.

Do people seriously expect all evidence to suddenly appear the moment an admin opens a ticket? It takes time.. It also didn't help that Taran did NOT block the user.. and nobody else knew about the alt account aside from someone else volunteering the information...

It bothers me that I see this stuff happening a LOT anymore, and it's not just on FA.. It. Is. Everywhere... and Thanks Dragoneer for taking the time to explain. It hopefully shows people that you have a conscience despite what they might think.. and a heart.

  kandikatkreations

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This.
  mistystriker

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
When people say the admin response was too slow, they really need to step back and look at the world.
Places like Blizzard and Riot can take up to two weeks to process a trouble ticket, and they're businesses with an entire group of paid staff dedicated to processing issues. (Taken from personal experience with logging tickets)
Postal services can take two weeks to run a full investigation on missing or damaged goods. Once again, this is with a group of dedicated staff who are paid to follow through on these issues. (Personal experience again, I used to work for a postal service)

FurAffinity is run by volunteers who donate their personal time to assist this website and the community.
The ratio of users versus admins is never going to be amazing. There's only so many new volunteers you can bring on at one time and I can imagine that the screening process alone would take ages. It's been previously stated that the admin staff have been working on reducing the number of backlogged support and trouble tickets and they have been succeeding in that fact.
Journals with these statements can be found here http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/4288891/ and here http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/4230833/

Nobody is satisfied until anything is responded to instantly, but let's face it, even your boss needs a day or two to read over your report before he can sign off on it. Use some brains and maturity, this is the real world. People aren't computers that can process some numbers and spit them back instantly. People aren't robots dedicated day in and day out 8 hours a day to responding to every issue on the site.

And, as always, if you feel the issue is serious and fear for your safety.. since when can a website physically protect you? Call the damned police. If they can't take physical action they will at least give you -advice- on what information they need to follow through.
  drekozar

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
+1, good sir.
  lexgoyle

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Well, I for one completely agree with how the whole thing was handled really. I mean to me it's common sense that if someone is not merely harassing but actually stalking and posting up serious personal information and threats you talk with law enforcement and take up personal responsibility and actually block the user. That last bit can be a little eh because some people really aren't aware of how to block someone since it's kinda different from site to site usually.

But I may not see eye to eye on a lot of the AUP with the site and certain actions by site administration but it makes perfect sense to not just outright start banning people purely because of what happens on another site. Victims are very well capable of being vindictive and take things to the extreme as well as others who could abuse someone else they have a grudge with. Evidence on other sites can be easily doctored up since it's quite easy to create an online identity and several of them if needed. People are emotional beings and often react in the heat of the moment... kinda what gets a lot of us in trouble when we hit a bump in life. But when it comes to harassment we all have the personal responsibility to actually BLOCK the user as to not further enable the behavior. When someone works around it then there ya go. At that point I myself would likely just block the person again. Eventually they go away but there's that extra little bonus of a harassment ticket that someone can file. She knew how to file that but... not block the user? I dunno. No point in crying over spilled milk now. It's all done and it's good that something was learned from this.

Anyway, I really do not agree that the admin should have stepped down over this issue. I feel they did exactly what was correct for the situation. Sure as you pointed out there is room for improvement but that's how we learn. I hope the admin that had handled this can be reinstated if he/she desires it because to me it was handled correctly with what everyone involved knew at the time. There was a comment in the journal where it was said Facebook for example would step in and automatically report the crime. To me that goes a bit beyond the scope of a website admin at all but Facebook at the same time Facebook has been used to commit some seriously violent crimes against people including murder and it's not an uncommon occurrence from them. They are also paid and likely do not need to work other jobs to pay the bills so.. there's an obvious difference that the ones who have overreacted to this issue do not seem to comprehend.

But yeah I'm with the administration on this one.

  kandikatkreations

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
This.
  norsepaw-studio

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
its just been chaos all this.
Now I have to jump from FA to Weasyl and back to stay in contact with friends and fave artists.
And Qarrezel I feel didn't really help much, I hope they will read this journal.
  aapur

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I run both sites besides each other in different banners here <w<
  breakspire

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
thanks for posting this!
  dirtiran

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Issues like this, no matter what side of the story, or who is in the wrong here… Make me never EVER want to be administration for a website like this.

Ever D;
  aapur

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
A formal apology would be good too, as this was a fairly big fuck-up.
It's true that Quarrezel might have been a bit too fast on the trigger, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have the other admins change their ways.

One suggestion would to tell them that they should ask for an explanation for why for example someone posted a journal like that. Taran might already have blocked FredrikSam by the time the journal was posted, which means the journal was meant to warn her friends, so he wouldn't use them to get to her. Stalkers who are that persistent will never just give up.

And for the handling of the case. If there is talk about rape and threats should the off-site rule have less weight on the final decision. It was clear that Taran knew that he was the one, and Quarrezel knew it too, even if most evidence was off-site. Rape and threats are serious issues, and if someone is being subject to them should they get help. That will also make you admins look better. It wouldn't have hurt to tell Taran that you were on the case and that she could remove the journal safely herself.

But I'm not the best critic, and most of my administration experience comes from Minecraft servers and not web pages, but try to get communication between admins better, and the first actions they take less drastic. That wouldn't hurt the site at all.
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
We will change our ways, but there could have been many other ways to go about it.
  aapur

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Good to hear. That's why i still have faith in the site.
  tungstenkitten

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Just my quiet little two cents in support of our professional, hard-working administrators.

You guys work damned hard at what often amounts to unpaid nursery care. I'm incredibly proud of each one of you, even the ones I don't particularly get along with.


As for Taran, I feel awful for what she had to go through. I've personal experience with this sort of issue and it really is painful and scary and horrific. I hope that she can get the help she needs and this is all resolved.


The other issue, I will not address except to say that, even with the best of motives or in defense of a friend, abuse of power is never right.

*hugs just everybody*
  kandikatkreations

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
ALL of this. *hugs back*
  tungstenkitten

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
:3
  mazzafox

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I wasn't even aware of this "big issue"
why are people making a big deal of it?

I just hope the issue with users uploads not showing for themselves, but showing for other people gets fixed.

example; I uploaded a pic, everyone else can see it (the thumbnail / preview ), but I can't until i click on the submission, to view it in it's own page..
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
because were furries! and we like to start drama!

well...qarrezel and her white knight armada anyway.
  mazzafox

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I don't like drama :( I like to help my friends as much as I can, even if it makes me get hurt or poor. why aren't more people nice?
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
because its the internet.

people her seem to think that all sense of decency can be thrown away...even furries.

thankfully among our beloved fandom most people are mature enough to atleast attempt to be nice.
  Comment hidden by its owner
  hisana

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
[sic] I'm done with this site and I want to leave [sic]
See:
I'm done with this site and I'm going to leave.
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
see you in 2 weeks. a month tops.
  cougar1823

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I think that most people don't understand how difficult establishing evidence of stalking and/or harassment is, nor how difficult putting a stop to it is. I am not surprised that so many furries jumped onto the lynchwagon out of this ignorance.
  kandikatkreations

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
I applaud you for posting this Dragoneer. I saw what was truly going on from the outset, even with the nasty journals, simply because I looked at the situation with a discerning eye, and kept myself from jumping off the USS FA boat, like so many others did without thinking (who I'm already seeing return, mind you). I believe there's not much you folks, meaning the admins, could have done much better than you did. You had no evidence on *this* site to go on, other than some quirky shouts. Weird shouts are certainly no reason to ban someone, and neither is hearsay. If the situation hadn't been yanked out of your hands by a third party, this situation never would have escalated, and none of us would be here talking.

I place full blame for this shit storm on Quarrazel, whom, though I greatly revere and respect her work, had ZERO right to post a journal regarding any of these goings on, ESPECIALLY since the investigation was still pending. Knee jerk reactions when angered, especially by people who have large followings or popularity, only lead to larger mistakes, and bigger humiliations. I hope Quarrazel can eventually see the error of what she did, and will return to FA, with apologies ready, since her suits are absolutely stunning, but if not, then in my book it's HER loss, not ours. She removed herself from this pool of customers, and that's her problem.

But, aside from my expressing my opinions on the foolish choice by Quarrazel, I stand by FA, and the admins. As I told you in your shoutbox Dragoneer, I applaud the way you handled this, and you've really shown your integrity through your actions, and those speak louder than words. Though there will be some that say you bungled this, I believe they are wrong, and that you did a bang up job of handling this, once it exploded on your front door step. I truly applaud you, and respect your choices, and decisions in this issue. I can only hope a large disaster like this never darkens your doorstep again.

~Cheers
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
FACT: "Im leaving FA forever" is furry speak for "Im taking a break ill see you all in a couple weeks."
  kandikatkreations

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
lol I should have known!
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
i wouldnt be surprised if Both Tar and Qer come crawling back in a month or two.
  kandikatkreations

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Honestly? I wouldn't either.... >.>
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
as bad as this sounds...props to the stalker...thats some grade-a creepy shit right there.

...but im glad hes gone lol. we dont need NONE o dat...
  kandikatkreations

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Yeah... More to the, glad he's gone point.... I've had stalkers before.... It's..... Disturbing.... We don't need that kind of thing here. Or anywhere for that matter.
  mazzafox

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
if I need to leave this site at some point because of how screwed up it is, at least there's weasyl to replace it
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Ive always got F-list and the FunnyJunk furry board. but im not leaving FA any time soon.
  deemann88

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Poor Dragoneer…I'm reading all this, and I realize just how much drama you deal with on a daily basis.

…and yet, all I ever hear from FA users is that "Dragoneer is a selfish asshole." If I ever hear somebody say that again, I'll show them this journal. You have a lot of stuff on your shoulders, Dragoneer, and, moral of the story is, FA users should respect you more for all the work that you do.

Love ya, Dragoneer. You're the best.
  lupercaleb

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
something like this seems to happen whenever a shiny new website comes along
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
its teh websernets conspiracy...dey is mekin dramas on teh FursAfinnitys tuh gets moar usesers...
  smaug

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Furries are fickle things. It should be common knowledge by now :B
  drekozar

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Yea, I think this is the 3rd mass exodus or so.
  kilwillae

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Can we now agree that ignoring offsite harrassment completely is NOT the correct course of action for admins? If a user is unstable enough, anything could bleed from any site to any other. Taren didn't block her stalker here, but we've already seen that he made a second account to try to get her to talk to him.
And since when is a call-out journal a bad thing when it's warning other users about dangerous/scamming/stalking individuals?

I'm glad you're making changes. I really am. Admins need to be more capable of making sound judgment calls, which could have stopped this whole shitstorm before it started.
  starfox246

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
neer u have earned my trust you are the best here @ Fa considering what happened tanan grif should have alerted the police as well as the FA staff
  markshark

#link     Posted: 6 years ago

 
Ah, FA... What would be of this site without the drama...
  aticston

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
A whole lot better that's for sure

I don't see the owner of Deviantart getting dragged into every crapfest that happens there, why do we have to keep dragging in Dragoneer?

Whats worse is when it eventually gets to the day of dragoneer going "My X admin will handle it" he'll get called lazy/sloth/asshole etc regardless
  markshark

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Simply: cause DeviantART has a community 100 times larger than FA, and they make a huge profit out of ads and their points system. Things are a lot more serious when there's money involved

People here don't spend a dime and yet think they're entitled to complain about the services

I would definitely not want to be in Dragoneer's place. Not at all.
  dizzyfoxx

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
This is exactly why I track down and eliminate all my stalkers before they can annoy me. Neutralization is the only way to be sure.
  tlailaxu

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I read that as: Neutering is the only way to be sure."
  dizzyfoxx

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I am always open to new and excruciating ideas. ^_^
  tlailaxu

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Piano wire or cheese grater?
  dizzyfoxx

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Rusty spoon...
  preston

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Well, I'm glad this is all over with. Hours and hours spent reading through all sides and trying to figure out what was right and wrong was tiring. Who wants to go swimming in my bean-shaped pool?
  dizzyfoxx

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Kidney or green bean?
  preston

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Kidney.
  dizzyfoxx

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Sweet.
  naira

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
The only things I don't understand is why someone wouldn't block their harasser first and if someone else has information about the stalker contacting them to get information about the victim, why they wouldn't report that TO the admin before making journals about them ignoring the situation? Waiting on someone to get back to you with more information isn't ignoring.

I also don't see how "ignoring" a situation or being slow to respond to it is encouraging harassment, as was stated in said journal >.>

If I was honestly that scared of the person coming to my house, I'd be onto my local police immediately.

I think that the admin could've handled it better and made the victim feel safer and like they WERE trying to take action, but I feel like the victim also could've taken a bit more action herself before sending the ticket to the FA staff. Perhaps if she had've blocked him beforehand and THEN perhaps discovered his alt account in the first place, the big blow up might not have happened. The evidence of his harassment ON FA would've been there already before she sent the ticket and he would've been banned immediately.

And I don't see how everyone ELSE should decide to up and leave FA because of OTHER people's affairs.

It saddens me that almost everyone involved this entire situation has made these mistakes and it got so out of hand just because of some misinformation on either both sides of the story =/

I hope everyone's learned something about this. I hope the admins have learned to be clearer to harassment victims and do more to make them feel safe. I hope anyone who does get harassed like this has learned that there is a lot of action they can take before they send a ticket, and that if it's off-site the admin can't really do much. And I hope everyone else has learned not to jump to conclusions and erupt over a story they've heard about in various people's journals and comments before getting the facts. It's like chinese whispers or something.
  alphazion

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
How has any of this been harder to understand than "FA admins have no authority outside FA"?

Would these people expect the security guards in Walmart to stop a shoplifter in the CVS across the street?
o.o
  brakkwani

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I'm pretty sure website owners are actually legally obliged to contact the authorities if a member of their website feels at risk of genuine harm, particularly if it's from another member.
  alphazion

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Yes, ON THEIR WEBSITE. The FA admins could be prosecuted if they let this kind of thing go on *over FA* which it was not. It just happened that both parties were FA members.
  blazeignitus

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
And yet there was also, apparently, Taran's public info posted on this site as well and not on other sites by the stalker. Does that not mean that it also happened on FA, though not yet to the same extent?
  alphazion

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
"Apparently". Can you verify this? If that happened and the admins didn't take it down then yes, they are at fault. But they have no ability to do anything about what happened on other sites.

It's not the same as what TheWielder (allegedly) did, which was actively threaten the site and encourage users to DDoS the servers (which btw is cyberterrorism under law now, IIRC.)
If Taran's stalker had been stalking them over FA using say...a sockpuppet account, then the admins would have to ban him. I know because it happened to me, and my trouble ticket was contacted within 24 hours, the entire matter resolved in under 2 days. Maybe I just got lucky or maybe the people throwing hissy fits are just whiny crybabies having a pity party. Who knows.

I think there was someone...I forget the name exactly and I don't want to start speculating, or I might accidentally name someone innocent and set off a witch hunt. But they were using FA/Inkbunny like a networking service to look for underage sex partners. They were banned.
  nightlinez

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
It is a great thing that you came up and addressed the issue and made this journal. It is a really tricky and sensitive issue to take action with and I agree with "FA admins have no authority outside FA". Were the police even involved? In an issue THAT Serious they should have been contacted and involved. Stalking is not just going to be an FA issue.

On a lighter note thank you and the admins for staying so devoted and making the site better <3.
  storm-crow

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I wonder how pink the Sheep look from picking a side on this issue.
  rtdragon

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Well i am glad to ear both side of the issues considering i made a journal wondering what exactly was going on and got an answer after looking at both sides. You did what you can within legal reasoning since stalking is a rather complicated issues. Though really did not help for that journal being posted. Though what concerns me if the stalking started on DA why did Taran not write up a support ticket there or block her stalker. Since the block system on DA is mutual.
  wuvvumsoc

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I don't think the issue is that black and white and people want it to be.

In most situations it's sensible that we don't want people to get banned for things offsite that come down to he says/she says. Most of the websites I've been to have this policy, including deviantart and weasyl. There's some instances like age verification on outside sites like you mentioned, because someone could lie about their age here. And threats to hack FA? While it could be taken as a joke I don't really think that just because it goes on "outside" the site doesn't mean you can aim attacks directly at the site or at the administration without expecting some sort of repercussion, but that's just me.

I really don't know anything about the other instances but I am aware that Dragoneer has made bad decisions in the past that weren't thought out. I've figured by now that's something that you have to accept as part of being on this site.

As far as TaranGryph goes I don't blame her for how she felt or how she responded. I had stalking and death threats before especially when I was young and new to the internet. Each time it made me feel on edge and antsy and maybe even a little scared. It also didn't make me feel rational, and only in one instance did I feel like getting the police involved, and with enough tracking we found the guy stalking me was overseas so it made me feel safe. It can be one of those things that clenches your heart and torments you to tears, so I can understand the urgency and despair and thinking that nothing could be done or these people aren't helping you. We could cut her some slack

I haven't agreed with all the response to it, or at least how many people made the dramatic exit. Everyone is free to leave the site when they no longer feel comfortable with it. I left for awhile myself after the note-leaking incident. I didn't feel secure and I don't really think things are secure now. But I just left with a little journal. I guess I feel like it's silly people are calling this an exodus and making it out to be a mass movement. You don't need this noble cause to leave; just make it your own preference. It's a furry website, it's not like you're in exile. You can even disagree with how Dragoneer acted, but I just don't see this as a movement or an exodus, maybe a protest.

I guess that's all I have to say about this. I'm staying on this site, but I am not going to look down upon people who want to leave.
  nekousagi

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
One thing that is huge and people never do it, (like you even said) just block them, it's not that hard, it's on the site for a reason, use it guys!
  duskwing

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Blocking can be useful, but has its flaws.
Ill intentioned comments left on other parts of the site can still be read (I had someone do that to every artwork done for me), random favs out of nowhere, sockpuppets (fake accounts) to keep the attack.

It can be useful, but sometimes it does not and can be easily avoided by someone that wants to annoy the living shit out of you.

The best thing is to send a Trouble Ticket, block the person, and in case this person persists, send more Trouble Tickets. And report all the fake accounts. Ad nauseum, sometimes.
  kamujin

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Blocking can have the unwanted side effect of preventing the guilty party from creating evidence against themselves.
  silkyfur

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Dragoneer: Thank you for changing the rules and regulations of how you deal with these kinds of things.

I live quite close to this stalker IRL, and I've seen him around on various online places for a few years, although he had never done anything like this before (that I know of), but it is easy to see how he could have started doing what he did.

I know that I personally do not have anything to fear from him, but this entire situation still felt a little too close, for me personally.

So... I am very glad that you are learning from this episode, I truly am. I really like FA, for many reasons, and I am glad that you are trying your best to improve it like this.
  kiboe

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
instead of calling the police she instead bitches about it on the internet...

stay classy furries
  freehaven

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
  straycat74

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
journal respounce number 660

Neer, if you read down this far, I support you.
She should not have posted the journal. to the best of my limited knowledge that is against the rules and why she was suspended/banned.

secondly, she should contact law enforcement and get a gun, because Stalkers LOVE Armed Victims. The NRA has many firearms education courses she can take, including defensive shooting.
  dracosblackwing

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I had gathered pretty early on that this was yet another excessive reaction by furries to something. IT doesn't even often have to be a something of any worth or importance. They don't *need* all the info, because they already *have* it... at least in each's own minds they do. They *know* what's going on, and their dislike of <fill in the blank> explodes, sending them all into a worse frenzy than sharks in water full of blood.

I find the easiest route to take with these things is to learn all there is to be learned FIRST, then react SECOND. Sometimes it's good to react quickly and suddenly, or to be outraged over something obvious. But this entire situation was anything but obvious, and was something that should have been kept completely private to begin with.
  qwertydragon

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
"* Our Code of Conduct WILL BE UPDATED"

It's about damn time :T
  spottycat

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
The funny part is that it's being updated to give a tutorial to users on `how to perform the obvious and stop expecting us to solve your non-FA problems` :D
  thorndyke

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
this is all just getting better and better as it goes on

#moresalad
  scorch

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
2/19/13

Hey Dragoneer, sorry to hear some of your writings were taken out of context or, otherwise, used against you. Or having to solve all these controversies (furry drama) brought into your Office of unpaid Administrator.

I have, also, experienced these issues with things taken, or placed, out of context or used against me.

Or users deciding to be offended, by a harmless intention, concept, or foreign belief system, by way of their own misunderstanding, ignorance, denial, or CHOICE to have, or find, THEIR 'problem' with somebody ELSE.

Then decide that somebody ELSE, with whom they DECIDED to have a 'problem', must be ignored, blocked, eliminated, jailed, banished, etc.
Even though that somebody else may not have done anything wrong, beyond a personal opinion or empty threat; or even attempted to help solve THEIR problem. . . Only to be condemned for trying to HELP solve THEIR problem(s).

Or they merely think it's 'funny' to play the role of a stalker while the other party plays the role of a victim versus solving their own problems between brothers instead of crying to 'daddy' administrator/referee, or a judge.

Isn't this what court is all about?
Is court an actual room? Or is there such a thing as "court of public opinion"?
Or merely enlisting the assistance of a neutral, third party, judge, or referee-arbitrator, who helps resolve problems between two parties who FAILED to resolve their own problems.

"Court" can merely be a formal gathering, such as a crew, on the bridge of a ship, making decisions regarding the safety of the ship and helping crew members resolve their differences.

And, of course, no matter what the judge, arbitrator, administrator or Captain, decides, regarding a controversy, or 'furry drama', one party is ALWAYS mad at him. . .

I feel for you, Dragoneer, as your duty of presiding over these controversies is difficult, at best, and I have a high respect for your Office of FA administrator. Just remember, you are a the Law Officer of your Law of your Province known as: furaffinity.

You are the Captain of these good vessels, Furaffinity.net, and #furaffinity. And if there is anything I may do, to assist with your Law Officer Duties, to serve and protect these good vessels, please let me know. :)

PS:
I trust things are working out with your move and you certainly have my best wishes.

}:>

  runzi333

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
wow some of you are simply rude! not you dragoneer but some of the other users. Its not ok to belittle people because they decided to leave, for any reason. I'm seeing a lot of hate for those who left but some of them felt genuinely un safe or that things wouldn't change. its not ok for you all to be so down on them for making the decision to leave. yes it was drama but it was also a very real issue and it was mishandled dragoneeer even said something of this here.

all I'm asking is to ease up on the bashing guys its just rude and unhelpful.
  sirfy

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
people leaving because of views and opinions of a 3rd party in a situation, and these people having nothing to do with it..seems pretty silly to me. These people leaving had no idea what was going on, they only knew what was happened from a 3rd party's perspective who was twisting words around...and shouldn't of been made public as it was to begin with.
As for feeling unsafe...this is the internet. Stalking and harassment happens on EVERY SINGLE community on the internet. This SAME situation can happen to ANYONE on ANY site. Leaving FA to go to another art community for that reason is just as silly as the reason above, if not more. Again, these people had no idea what was going on. They never knew what the admins actually did or said, they just took it upon themselves to leave...most likely to cause more drama over the situation.

The people making public announcements leaving over a situation already blown out of proportion with unnecessary drama were causing just as much trouble and drama (collectively) as Qarrezel did with her own call out journal.
  runzi333

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I don't care why they are leaving. bashing on someone for leaving for any reason is rude and unhelpful. plenty of people are leaving because of other problems they see with the site or just because they like other sites better. They aren't all drama llamas or attention seekers like some would like to paint them as, some of them are just moving on. grouping everyone who has left as anything other that fellow furs is just a rude thing to do.

I know a lot of people that left and I find it very rude to say that FA is better off without them as I really think that it would be better of with them and not the rude people who are here just to be rude.

I'm stating here that I think bashing people for leaving over this or for any other reason is just plain rude and obnoxious.
  sirfy

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
publicly announcing ones leaving, for any reason, is also very obnoxious; as it only serves attention seeking or, in this case, drama. Bashing anyone for anything is rude, I agree. If someone wants to leave FA for whatever reason..fine..that's their business. However, a good bit of those people who leave and make a big public announcement about it cause just as much headache as those who bash them. If they weren't making their absence a public spectacle (and garnishing information, in this case, that does nothing but create even more drama out of a situation) then they'd have no reason to BE bashed. It's a 2-way street in the matter :)
  runzi333

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
well I must say I would be very upset if one of my favorite artists left any site I was watching them on without saying anything. I think that its far more rude to just up and leave without saying anything. I think if other lots of others weren't also leaving and posting journals about it then no one would find it irritating.

plenty of people are leaving because of the issues but for some this just means they can leave with everyone else because they are only here for their watchers and would just as soon leave anyway.

I think leaving because a "popufur" left is dumb but I understand people's want to be away from somewhere they deem unsafe or unfit(for reasons we like or agree with or not).
I also think most people leaving are just using the mass amounts of people switching to, say weasyl for example, to relocate to a new environment :)

(I also think people will always find a reason to bash other people. I live on the firm belief that people suck and are dicks XP I'm a bit cynical sorry :P )
  sirfy

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
yes, dicks are everyone on the internet unfortunately...figuratively and literally :P

I'm just irritated at all the drama created by nosey people.
  runzi333

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
hahaha I totally understand! I just think people are very quick to lay blame (me included some days XP ) and should be a little more considerate :P I think that may be asking too much of people some days but I'll try anyway!
  -k-

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Honestly, I didn't know of this shenanigans until late last night and I had to dig for it. and I only stumbled upon it when someone on Weasyl posted about being banned from FA for a completely different reason.

Although, I did see my Journal count balloon up recently. I just can't read every single one when I check journals like twice a month.
  sirfy

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Thanks for the clarification to those who feel they need it.

I'm still surprised on why this has gotten so big when it's none of anyone's damn business but those involved. All because Qarrezel had to go and make personal problems of someone else public in their own call out journal. So nosey people take the side of a "popufur's" view and create more drama of their own. It's pretty frustrating just to watch.

I do have a question though, since you stated about redoing the policies on harassment and stalking...what about the harassment of admins? On and off site? I've seen it alot, especially towards sciggles when she was first an admin. Have actions been taken against admin harassment like that?
  okineko

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
User mishandled you cannot post material or evidence ((due to easily beimg falsified ) until courts through due process.
admins of sites have no judicial power. no court sanctioned
order of restraint means nothing can be posted as it'll be
libel/slander. People should learn what normal people
can and can't do. so sadly without any court files innocent until proven guilty. if there is danger contact police not web admins
if stalker knows private information etc
plus problem lies on different jurisdictions as laws vary.
Web admins aren't substitute for actual law enforcement.
If they acted as such they'd be in legal trouble for
attempting to be as actual law. Stalker can sue in return
If both admins and user had no court evidence/order .
  grilder123

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I really hope you can do that cause everyone is leaving and if you can't do nothing this site will be nothing but a ghost site.
  aarkangel

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
The only people that are leaving are the hundred or so drama whores and they'll be back in a month as usual. There have been "exodus's" on FA before and every time 99% of everyone who left cam back within the month.
  grilder123

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I'm going to go with your statement everyone seems to be saying that so yea
  takura

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Obviously, this drama could have been avoided. But no one chose to ignore the crazy ones (by crazy ones i mean the stalkers) They were nothing but a troll trying to get a rise out of someone. I've had stalkers myself, they found out where I live, etc. And I ignored, and reported them. They got banned, and moved on. Could have been as simple as that for those involved, but because they had to make journals about it, everyone went into a drama hissy fit and some where even "IM LEAVING FA!!!!" I mean come on guys. This is the internet. Drama is going to happen. There are stalkers online. And hey, if you put all your private info out on the net and they find it, in reality, that's your own fault. As for my situation, it was a bit different. I only give out my private info (and not even all of it) to very few of my friends that I trust. And as for emails, well you can find out where someone lives via email by tracing the header. (there's a site for it) So I believe that's how my stalker found out where I lived or at least the general area. =/

But yeah...all this....could have been avoided...
  amoryllis

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I'm just more surprised on WHO was involved.
  takura

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
well, that's true. You'd think the pop furs would have handled the situation better since they know they have a lot of fans. But no all you got out of it was a bunch of whining. No offence to anyone, but that's all I saw out of this drama. 'WAH SOMEONE IS STALKING AND HARASSING ME! BAN THEM!' Yeah, I've been in that situation before. I mean just cause you're a popular fur doesn't mean you get special treatment. If anyone thinks like that they have serious ego problems.
  canibyte

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
someone is stalking me i think ill go to the admin because they are obviously law enforcement officials.
  kamujin

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Hey, I mean, like, it TOTALLY could've been some stranger who just happened to have the same username, and who just happened to want to frighten the same person. Totally right, there was no reason to act on such flimsy evidence. I mean, no one's even been killed or raped yet! Even then, you can't just go off half-cocked!
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
It's not so much a stranger who just happened to use the same username. It's more an issue of "I don't like this guy, let me go make an account in his name and post a lot of shit, enrage this person, and let the real XXX take all the blame!". It happens more often than not.
  kamujin

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
In which case it's important not to suspend the phony account pending investigation? That's a load of shit. In either case (genuine stalker or phony account), it's not some innocent third party in the wrong place at the wrong time.
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
What if the user was innocent? People generally do not take kind to "Hey, we had to suspend you just becaaause you may be bad."

That's why users are given the block option while we investigate. They can block, and we'll look into that. If people circumvent the block, then we'll step in and suspend them.
  kamujin

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
If you're saying that it was important to make sure that fred wasn't punished in the unlikely case he was some other guy making frightening comments on Taran's page, then you're a fool. Not that I had any doubt. Temporarily denying an innocent person the use of a furry art site is not only unlikely, but it's...insignificant. As long as it's not done maliciously, who cares? It's just FA, and it's just temporary. A userbase that has a reason to trust the administration will accept the occasional short-lived false positive as the price of having a safe community that takes them seriously.
  yak

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Do you have any experience moderating a sufficiently large online community? If you do not, then I am afraid you have no justification to use pretty much any of the points in your comment.
You would simply just not know how a community works from the inside.

See, the administration does not operate under 'likely' or 'unlikely'.
If we did, then your verbally abusive tone with going out of the way to insult Dragoneer with "you are a fool. not that i had any doubt" would have likely hinted that you have been - or will be - similarly abusive to other users as well. Based on that we should have pre-emptively suspended your account while we took our time to investigate your comments history to make a conclusion.
If we found you innocent we would have apologized for falsely accusing you of harassment, explaining that it wasn't done maliciously and that we were acting in the best interests of protecting the users of FA community and providing a safe experience for all. You, as an understanding user that trusts the goodwill of the administration would have probably just shrugged it off, after all it was just FA and the suspension was just temporary.
Harassment of users is an important issue and should be taken seriously.

Do you see how this is an unlikely, unfair and outrageous scenario?
  kamujin

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Nothin' unfair about that, considering how I've been pouring out vitriol on other journals and my own page. I have no illusions about being some judicious, respectful user just trying to shine a light on things.
  subversive-imaginati

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Except you don't. It took me two days to convince you of the fucking obvious that someone HAD evaded my block to abuse me! And then you talked down to me like I was the person who didn't notice the evasion, not you and your staffer, and the user still remains on site unsuspended, despite abusing me twice and having a history of harassing me.

Cut the bull 'Neer. I've been patient and polite to you because I thought that if I went off, you wouldn't do anything about the problems, but it makes no fucking difference does it Neer? You have no intention of doing anything against rule breakers especially if they're the sort of people you protect. Tell me again how beastiality gets people a one way ticket off the site when in fact mentioning that a user has admitted it off site to you as a point of concern in fact means you will protect their ass no matter how many rules they break.
  subversive-imaginati

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I do, and one does not need to have experience to know what good moderating looks like from the outside.

Yes, it can upset people if you accidentally ban hammer them while trying to protect another user, that's why you check each case carefully and apologise if you screw up. The thing is every administrator screws up some time, the true test of their mettle, is what they do about it.

Truth be told, I've never had a complaint of banning an innocent party while trying to ban hammer a harassive member. People usually complain to/about me as a mod because they want to be exempt from the rules and don't like that I don't agree with them.

What's worse Yak? Apologising to a theoretical someone suspended for a couple of days by mistake or doing damage control for failing to tackle a obvious stalking issue? A judgment can be undone or negotiated if a user feels it is too harsh, the stress and upset a victim feels at a stalker being allowed to have free run at them cannot be.

As for them "verbally abusing" Neer? To be frank, you should see some of the shit I get from users who think rules apply to other people not them. Comparatively most of the people who get fed up with Neer's inaction are relatively nice because the people he is pissing off are not the rule breakers.

Furthermore you're comparing apples to oranges, by suggesting that perhaps you should suspend a user while you investigate in case they've been abusive to others in response to a complaint about the admins not acting on cases where it's obvious to anyone with a set of eyes and rudimentary judgment that someone was being harassive.
  spookyhollows

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Dragoneer, I have a question about the block system...if I block someone, then why can I still see their submissions popping up on the FA homepage? I find it a bit weird. Like, even if they may not be able to message me or comment on my stuff anymore, say they were to make somewhat rude comments about me in their submission description? I don't want to name any names, since I can tell you've been putting up with alot lately, but it'd be more helpful if I wouldn't be able to see their stuff pop up in the homepage when they are on my block list.

~Spooky~
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
The block system does not block the homepage, browse or search.
  spookyhollows

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Ah, okay. Because 3 people posted rude comments on one of my old photos a few days ago, yet even after I blocked them, they posted rude journals and remarks in some of their submissions. If they continue to do it, or do it again, should I just ignore them, or should I let you know about it?

~Spooky~
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Report them.
  roguesareth

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
"no ones even been killed or raped yet"
except for that time that Zaush raped someone
  kamujin

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Oh, come on, that's just drama, let the admins mishandle it instead of getting all butthurt that some disgusting LADY (EW EW EW) got threatened into sex by a friend of the owner. I swear, everybody just loves whining, but have THEY ever bungled an art site this big? Seriously.
  roguesareth

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Oh of course, how could I forget. Girls are icky and just cause drama with their silly wimmin' problems.
  duskwing

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Guys, how about if we stop beating the shit out of the dead horse, and move on into solving this kind of trouble?

And I don't mean the admins, I also mean the users.
Lets work to avoid this kind of things, stalking and harassing. Everyone its like "lolz dramuh!", like if it doesn't affect them at all.

But trust me, it will at one point.
Stalking and harassment escalates pretty damn quickly, and everyone can be a victim of it.
So its really stupid to laugh at this kind of things, since I'm sure someone at one point in their lives will experience this awful situation.

I had to deal with stalkers twice, and FA responded fast as a fart to solve one of the situations (the other wasn't handled so fast, but it was all cool since the person stopped the harassment almost after making his sockpuppet account. Not real harm, I think? Either way, I'm cool.).
But, here is the thing...I realized I should report only the FA-related stuff. And I did.
I posted god damn translations from spanish to english of notes sent on FA and a resume of all what happened with this stalker IN FA.

Maybe, next time...specifically say that it should always be only FA related for you to be able to help?
I know its an obvious thing, but maybe people miss the point?

I must say I'm really not mad at FA admins whatsoever regarding this. Maybe slightly disappointed, but I know that there is a limit of what you can do, and that's ok.
  scribbledragon

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
FA will always be my site of choice, even when I disagree with personal opinions of people there - opinions are just that, and I'm not going to let that get in the way of enjoying you guys, and the community I've come to respect and admire herein.
  marikjfoxx

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Well said Neer.
I can understand the victim leaving FA, But the mass exdous from the other users this was a bit much.
  zoetrope

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I find it really unfortunate that Taran's friends felt it necessary to air this dirty laundry until you were forced to make a journal to address it. As I see it this isn't our business. We should not have to know about this particular user and her creepy stalker, and now EVERYONE knows about it. What is done is done though, I can only hope that in the future people don't cause massive drama bombs about troubletickets and force the rest of the site to deal with it. ( Hahahaha )
  midnightblut

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
At the risk of calling attention to myself and after reading both journals on this issue in particular [as well as skipping past most of this journals comments] I think that with the time frame shown here, and whatever internal procedures were in place concerning this kind of topic, I can say that the FA team did what was lawfully correct. The administrative team is here to do their best for this particular website and not the rest of the Internet because the basic facts they have access to are related to, well, this website. Policing the rest of the Internet would be a futile practice for them without access to all the facts from other websites so best course of action leans towards the best judgment with what's available.

Having been a student of Cyber Law and having talked with Law Enforcement in the past [just for fun and my own personal interest of the subject] Cyber Crime has 2 possible places of jurisdiction. The First being the location of the Server the crime is happening on and the Second being the computer that the crime is being committed/viewed on. In the case of something like Cyber Stalking the best course of action would be something like the following:

Step 1: Block Offending User
[If trouble continues]
Step 2: File Complaint Ticket for Harassment
[If issue circumvented/unresolved]
Step 3: Request Ban of Offending User
[If issue takes place off-line]
Contact Local Law Enforcement for Advice, If bad enough and they have the right recourses they may submit it to a Cyber Crimes Division.

I don't pretend to know what the procedure is internally for handling something like Cyber Stalking on a Website on FA but for any ticket submitted the more information given, the better the picture will look for the person handling the ticket. So many people tend to not think about other things that might be tied to an issue that we're all guilty of tossing a simple worded trouble ticket out and hoping for the best. That usually means that the person handling it has to dig for information or make a quick judgment with the information at hand. It sounds like that might have been the case here but the primary reaction should be the 4 steps I listed above. If necessary for Law Enforcement, then log IMs and take them with you to see a Police Officer.

Personally I feel sorry for both the FA Admin Staff and the people that had this problem, I also think it was blown out of perspective and hope that this can be a learning event for all of us.
  roguesareth

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
You are such a piece of shit Dragoneer, first the dog rapist thats still actively posting after you advised him to hide his dog raping better, and now thins? who the fuck let you be in charge of this site?
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Excuse me? Bestiality is generally a one way ticket OFF the site, as we are rather well known for banning people who admit to having sex with animals. It's not something we tolerate. In some instances, if users are having discussion that is borderline, but not admitting directly to it, we will give a polite warning that kind of discussion is NOT permitted.

But no. I *hate* bestiality/zoo. It's illegal, and not something we tolerate.
  roguesareth

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/...../mobiandog.jpg

Really? So you didn't say that? Someone hacked your account and Told Zaush to hide his dog raping?

I bet you didn't say this either huh? http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/.....mdragoneer.png
You totally didn't tell a sexual assult victim to not talk about it because it would cause drama, nope clearly you didn't.
  kamujin

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Aww, I think you hurt his ego...
  roguesareth

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Notice how he doesn't have an excuse for the screengrabs either
  kingxcabbage

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Dear Dragoneer, sorry about the mess, hope things get better! (Watching from the sidelines!)

Thanks for stayin' professional!
  takenakasan

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Why doesn't the block feature remove you from the person's watch list? They are still alerted to any new submissions, journals, etc. For that matter, why are said blocked users still able to fave your work? Any blocked user who wishes to do so is still able to soft-stalk you. Isn't a block feature supposed to actually black the person? The current block feature is about as effective as shoveling sand with a sifter.

I myself have dealt with issues where someone has used the holes in the block feature to continue harassing and stalking. At this point contacting the admins was absolutely no help as they only told me there could do and just to block the user. It IS very similar to what just happened with Tarangryph. What needs to happen is either the admins need to less apathetic and become more proactive towards issues, or, individual users need to have more features that will allow them to better police their own pages.
  kamujin

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I know Dragoneer was able to respond to my journal comments, so clearly it's not working as intended.
  takenakasan

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
What? Is he blocked by you and still able to respond? Lol. No regard for even their own rules. Not to mention a culture of mum and protecting skeevers. See: Cronyism
  dusk

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
So, I believe I am being retaliated against. I have intentions to leave FA alone more or less accept as a casual watcher and lurker until it can get it's stuff together. I was recently attacked by a user on his journal whom I contacted in private notes over an altercation. I was rather rude to this user as I felt he was extremely rude to me, but I tried to say what I had to say privately and not in open page to him. He used my name openly and that is a violation of the TOS. I reported it, and it's been a couple days with no response on the issue.

This is exactly why Quar left. I feel the admins on this site have been vindictive and biased at times. If not, then at the very least, I see something akin to gross incompetence here.

I was hoping that the issue with Quar may have changed things, everyone learned a lesson, yeah, but the fact that I am still awaiting an admin to deal with my recent report tells me it really hasn't don't much.

I'm offended and disappointed, Dragoneer. You owe us, and this fandom, and these people that trust you to offer them a safe environment to post work, share ideas, and not face a biased, unfair administration, more. You owe them pro-activity, and good judgement, as well as reasonable response times to avoid damaging people's dignity, reputations, and personal feelings of safety on this site.

Stop trying to dodge blame for this, Neer, you owe us better. An I would love to return to this sight again in active form, but I don't feel safe here! I seem to not be alone in that feeling, not by far.
  mikau

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Dragoneer, I'll be honest.

Being here on FA for a long time, I've seen plenty of administrators and moderators come and go, with some having years of being an admin on their belts. I've seen changes in the community, unfortunately not for the better, and it's affected FA heavily, bringing the overall intelligence of the fandom down to that of Michael Eisner (You've betrayed the shareholders!), mixed in with M. Night Shyamalan (What a tweest!), and Michael Bay (cool guys don't look at explosions). Users and admins/mods are definitely no exception to the rule. After all, the ToS and AUP both get updated a bit too frequently. I hardly know what is and isn't acceptable anymore.

I recall some of the recently hired/fired/quit have all but managed to uphold their duties properly, ranging from power abuse, being a bit too ban-happy, providing excuses, committing numerous infractions, improper/generic replies to Trouble Tickets, and of course, not dealing with drama in a more professional manner. I know the Block feature exists, and everyone can use it, but it doesn't solve all problems. A blocked user can still harass the person if they decide to hate them that much. Not to mention that the Block feature only prevents users from commenting, rather than just blacking them out completely.

There is a lot of incompetence here on FA, and with the current rampant behaviour of some of the admins in the past, I don't feel relatively safe. The experience is severely lacking, and those who do have experience are often, if not always, met with total silence or even "lolno". Which is why those other furry community sites exist. They're tired of being treated like crap. Fur Affinity has been my main hub for a long time, and I really don't want to leave it for another site to get my fur-related information elsewhere.

The one thing you really could do better is if you stop turning a blind eye to those with experience and are more professional, and start adding competent people on your team, rather than some of the previous milk-drinkers from years past who can't handle these kind of problems, much less so for drama that happens seemingly every day. It's nice being able to pick your apples from the same tree, but not all of them are going to be as good as you might think.

I like FA, I really do, but the sheer incompetence that occurs all around saddens me. This needs to change.
  vocoletum

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I have a question this made me think of.

Are there plans for the block function to be modified to prevent one blocked from even seeing the other person's page, comments, etc., on the site?


I think that could prevent a lot of problems, maybe; though I guess it's kind of extreme.
  morganatwist

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
I am only posting on this journal just to read your side and get more understanding about the stalking issue in regards to FA's policies and rules because this directly would effect me if ever I should get a stalker like fredriksam hunting me down all over the net and here on FA. I would want to know that I am safe and that you would get to the bottom of it ASAP to ban the sicko who would do this and not leave me hanging and vulnerable.

I agree with you Dragoneer about seeing what could have been done better on both sides and what was attempted. That is very mature and reasonable no doubt.

But honestly, how can you say you and the other admins were needing/looking for evidence of this fredriksam's harassment against Taran and not finding it enough to ban the stalker when in fact you were actually covering it all up by deleting the their nasty posts and comments on Taran's journal that would incriminate and prove fredriksam to be the very stalker psycho Taran claimed them to be? That seems to me a step in the wrong direction which would get you no where in the investigation and would simply muddle things and waste time.

If you read first hand the harassing sick comments from fredriksam enough to delete them all then why go through all the trouble to cover them up or ignore them and let this person continue to be offensive and harmful to people on FA? Why not use those very comments as proof to insta-ban the guy?

I am sure you would have ways to check the I.P. addresses of the computer the comments were coming from and of Taran's computer and know for sure whether or not it was Taran posting the comments in attempt to frame fredriksam as a stalker. I know you guys have ways of finding this stuff out so why cover it up and not use it to ban this sicko?

I think Taran had ample evidence that this guy was indeed a sick perverted stalker but it feels like all the evidence was swept under the rug instead of directly addressed and assessed. :/

It all seems to have ended tits up on both sides. I feel bad for both you, your admins, Taran, Qarrezel, and all the people who are leaving FA over this.
  subversive-imaginati

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
To be blunt,

Firstly over a week is not a good enough response to stalking issues, those should go to the front of the queue. Stalking is criminal behaviour, it's not just writing a nasty comment.

Secondly, to be blunt the only time you actually do anything most of the time it seems is when people kick off and then you're all damage control in public when what you should have done is to ACT when it came to your attention.

Perhaps if you ACTED instead of dragging your feet and then having to do damage control, I wouldn't still be waiting over five months later because you still have not tackled a harassment problem I'm having.
Perhaps if you acted two users with a history of harassment wouldn't be still on the site, despite one deliberately evading a block.

Some of us are tired Dragoneer, tired of asking you to do the task you took on with the site. Tired of you being all "upstanding" in the public eye while behind the screens you fail at some of the most basic things a web site owner should legally do. You shouldn't have to be talked into acting, you shouldn't have to be motivated by public shame. If you care about fA, you should be an active force on the site, and you're not an active force, you're passive.
  halios

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Either way: you just basically said that a higher importance ticket took over 6-8 days for a response. The response was also given only AFTER a journal was made. Couple this with several other tickets that have been made by other people (though of lower importance) having taken 5 months for the FIRST response, and the whole 'You aren't right, we are completely fine' has just been blown since that just shows a lack of response. I know this isn't where 5 start support is expected, but a week for something like that...

Also just out right saying the person didn't block the person, unless you have something showing they at least accessed FA before you did the check on their account, I smell the usual sentence chopping that the media has unfortunately mastered. While yes, stating they didn't do a block yet is understandable if they were online but I digress.

Either way, I see the timing as just more evidence of 'cause and effect' and less 'doing before effect' like support is supposed to be. The only time I see where an action is being done before something critical happens is the hardware donation drive.
  solipsisticnarcissistic

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
Thank you so much for this, I feel so much better having read this (even though I'm about 8 months late)
  solipsisticnarcissistic

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
though in Tarangryph's journal (which I just looked at again) says the TT was up for over a week...
  dragoneer

#link     Posted: 5 years ago

 
What it didn't say was that an admin was working with Taran during that week. However, since they weren't involved in the entire process... the facts didn't come out until after.