david miscavige all the time or he was restricted to the base and a mess work or you know hard manual labor so during the times that he was doing great I just let it ride and you know don't talk about it nobody bring it up and and I was never someone who you know hey I was born into Scientology

David Miscavige

Marc Headley http://marcheadley.com/

I just try I was just trying to not make waves and just go along and in fact mark jokes about that too rightly so that when we when we blew he blew first I blew second well in in April or there abouts we had arranged to get all of our belongings and Mark went back to California to get a u-haul that had been loaded up with all of our belongings and inventory that's a separate story but the point is at that time when he went to get all of our belongings security handed or Terrence Terrence hoon a the security guard for gold at the time he now lives in Hawaii with his wife and kid there there one of the families on my list of children born but anyway he handed éclairs and mark jokes about it because marks declare I said oh well he stole $ and because eBay fees that wasn't approved and blah blah mine makes it look like I was the Wicked Witch of the base and I destroyed all tech blinds internationally and yada yada yada I'm like my biggest crime was leaving there like Claire killed l ron Hubbard like I wasn't even there you were the bad guy yep yeah and of course that's because I was an RTC so they had to make damn well that they were gonna you know all the people that I was knew knew who knew me and respected me in some form or another and then I wasn't too much of a bitch to hopefully that they could give them a good reason as to why they should now make me their latest ooh right right right um so when I did this live stream with Nora I explained everybody have Nora and I've actually known each other since like and the exact same thing is true with Claire so in fact yes me and Nora and Claire

we're all at flag at the same time I was a lowly staff member from Philadelphia Nora was a lowly staff member from Celebrity Center and Claire came in as one of the new magical amazing RTC reps who were now on so were you guys you guys were like that whole time for you I know you weren't arts sheriffs in training you were real RTC reps but was that whole time period Oh aren't you reps in training yep and so maybe we weren't to you but to us we were if I use the right language Claire I'm sorry to cut you off is there a difference between an RTC rep in training and an RTC training yes very big difference okay our T's an RTC trainee is not yet approved for RTC so they're not actually technically in RTC an RTC rep and training although all the people there were actual RTC staff members in my case I was in golden era productions from mmm let's see until until March I was approved to be in RTC and I was I was supposed to be RTC rep Celebrity Center the day after I was approved for RTC I was flown into Clearwater and that's where I met you got it so that was only March you were only there for the last like two months of that program yeah seem like forever and you know um I'm remembering also that you and Melanie peanut P melanie peeler I know in real life you look nothing alike but in memories out of years you look a lot of like she was actually assigned to be one of my personal supervisor you know I like the artsy syrups were supervising the people that were training to be supervisors now and sometimes I kind of confused and I thought that was you but it was actually Melanie peeler were you assigned to supervise some guys on the supervisor course yes I was well Melanie and I were both assigned to the coachmen building and so we were going we were in the courtrooms oh you know all day long we were watching watching the metering videos the Tiaras videos and that little RTC rep office and the coachman I think on the second floor so yeah absolutely right and so um Melanie did then become the RTC rep CC end right where did you get assigned now Melanie Melanie Melanie and I actually did the mission so a seer admission to to put the RTC staff on post and pack so now I was the mission IC and Melanie was the second to put an

Aaron Smith-Levin

Rathbun on as RTC rep PAC Jesse Reese as the IG maa Erica Williams as the deputy RTC right pack I think or something like that um so we put those three people on post in impact in January and then from that point Melanie and I went back to int and I ended up being posted at int and Melanie ended up in a flag from there that's right that's how you became exact what an external exact RTC internal internal exact I know I was first my exact post title was director of ABC cramming for mark RTC basically right well yeah but but koala for golfer games is that we say ABC is a and verification and correction and that's the that's the the division an RTC that was responsible for supervising all event management so that's how I was responsible for as the cramming person then you know word clearing stuck checking doing ethics interviews with all of the inte exact index like yo mark gig or blah blah blah that's that's how that's so that was my position from January until March I got it and so that's also how you're in a position to know whether Miscavige was getting auditing or where he was out on the bridge and stuff like that right yeah that's right and just for people who are watching um do am I remembering correctly you said he had started ot was auditing on earth e but then never finished it stopped he stopped auditing had never finished it right yeah right the last so the exact specific is that in I was working with Angie Trent who had been at flag she was an OT a class she was going to audit David Miscavige and I was drilling with her preparing her to do that and because she was preparing to do that she had his PC folders so we both knew very well that the last time he had had any auditing was in when he broke his leg Wow it had already been over four years since he met in session by that time yeah Wow that was I mean that's read run when the church got his tax exemption yeah so he broken his leg playing basketball yep that's right yeah interesting all right so let's take some actual questions y'all what was your someone says what was your salary during that time yeah what were you making is RTC $ a week yes we were looking at did you know that Miscavige was getting a salary of at least , a year um I found out I found out later so when I became and exact in March from March until I was approving the weekly RTC financial planning and so that's that's where I became aware of more details anyway not even you know it's not like I have a rift saw his pay records necessarily but you know I became a check signer and yeah so um so what was he making at that time um so I know he was making around a hundred thousand a year and then the Charter SEC RTC had proposed to bump that up and if I remember correctly it was between two to a year but I didn't it was a proposal that she was working on how I it was carefully structured at the time that I was there it was very carefully structured so that David Miscavige was the highest paid person Maurice was the second highest paid person and Shelly was the third highest paid person because they didn't want mr. and mrs. as number one and number two because of inherent implications that that would present to the IRS

Wow so you know the head of a giant multi-billion dollar organization making to is nothing but you also realize Claire's Claire's just like number three in the organization she's making bucks the head guys making to and also the other thing that everyone should understand they don't that's just money being banked but Miscavige doesn't pay any of his personal expenses the organization covers everything everything right um that's right you know art his car was purchased he got a brand-new BMW from ASI for Christmas the last year that I was there you know it's every everything and anything that he needed or wanted was luxury lifestyle covered Wow um did that I'm not saying the lifestyle whatever to each his own but there's a cool abusive staff that's a whole other category totally when you when you found out that he was making a big box or whatever did that have any effect on you not really no honestly um you just you know well that's you know you don't question you don't question anything it's you know it's a it's the rabbit-hole - from my perspective you know and that's where when Mark when Mark left for me the house of cards tumbled down because you know I mean the fact is that the day that he left was my wit wake up point of you know what the heck am I doing here like there's just no way I mean that same night he left I pack I can hid it under my bed and I just was gonna figure out there was just a matter of time yeah um okay I hope our connection continues to be okay it seems like it started to slow down a little bit let me ask you another question yeah at this time was was Miscavige flying first-class when he had to go over travel it was flying private private since night after / he was flying private was it just tom's private plane or did he have a charter arrangement with the RTC have a charter thing going on cuz they don't own a private plane right no they don't at least they didn't then but III mean I remember it distinctly because I was internal exec and Liz Mooney or Liz Rossi was my junior and she was the one who would arrange all of his transport you know flights and so forth and it was a big question at the time if he was going to fly to UK for the IAS event because obviously September th the next event is IAS event in the UK is a huge question and and she had Liz had suggested she had proposed and budgeted out I think , dollars for a charter flight and then I and again mmhmm yeah holy oh my god so um that's unbelievable to me you know someone has pointed out to me someone was being the devil's advocate at the idea of the Church of Scientology having a few billion dollars or spending less than its interest on its reserves they're like this is not something that people should be outraged about if you compare it to giant universities like Harvard or Yale or even Penn State like people donate to those colleges and they have huge massive endowments and if they still hold fundraisers technically raising money they don't really need and my response when when to that argument is yeah but here's the difference people know that Yale has a massive endowment like people know Penn that the you know Penn State and Harvard have massive endowments they donate anyway because they want to not because they're being alive to about how urgently important their money is they certainly only donate money they can afford to donate people aren't going bankrupt and taking second mortgages to make a donation to Harvard or Yale or Penn State it's not an accurate comparison and I can tell you that for the almost you know or so years I was working for the Church of Scientology it never even dawned on me that the church could have in excess of billion or two billion or billion because every fundraising event is acting like this is so urgent and important and if if you don't make this sales quota mr. Miscavige cannot execute the next step in his expansion strategy and everything everything rests on whether we make this quota tonight like people are lied to about how much money is there because if they knew they'd stop donating right right and not only that there's the flipside to that that they are helping nobody except Miscavige it's not that they are you know helping homeless people or saving children or actually you know helping hurricane victims let's say none of that is actually happening they they create elaborate videos to make their members believe that that's what they're doing meanwhile all the money is going to the top for the benefit of david miscavige right right and you know Mike made a great point in one of the episodes which is that even if science if David Miscavige believed his own that training auditors is going to save this planet and get us all out of the prison planet and escape the body you know the birth to death cycle if he wanted to use Scientology's money on something that at least made sense in the context of Scientology he would take this money and literally pay people should do auditor training like it would be an example of something that the colleges do with their endowments they give out scholarships particularly to people who need the money and if Scientology wanted to at least act like they were on that same playing field as far as responsible use of their money they would let people train for free yeah go ahead um since the questions should really be directed to you just if you see one okay so on the question you're a saucy black baby of the stop cos other countries will have to take them on um I would say the the strategy from RTC has been to obtain tax exemptions systematically in in every country in the world and the way they've done that is by starting with first getting the right to marry and then building it up from there and presenting a kit that they are religion because they marry people and yada yada yada and so they systematically attempted to do that in many different countries they've had different results in varying locations I'm I would hope that in the u.s. at some point they would develop a watchdog committee similar to what they developed in Australia with Nick Xenophon's efforts to do the public benefit test on non-profit charitable organisations and then as a result of that then review their tax-exempt status do you feel that the u.s. government genuinely could end up revoking Scientologists tax-exempt status yes I think I mean I think at that point anything is possible but certainly the continued exposure of what what they are actually doing and what they're covering up and those factors I would I mean you know obviously I'm no expert I'm no lawyer but we know from our experiences that the things they are doing are illegal they're abuse of staff they're deception of members and so forth so yeah sure anything's possible I think it's just a matter of the owl and yeah but yes it's possible so something you just said reminded me of um I've mentioned this conversation that comes up sometimes of a Scientology really any worse than any other religion and on a macro level my knee-jerk response to that is usually no not really because historically religions have been pretty terrible and awful and but what you just said is a perfect example of one of those things that rises to right to the top of the list of things that does make Scientology different and worse than other religious groups religions philosophies whatever the deception in the conversation I have with Dylan Gill yesterday the item that we were talking about that rose to the top of that list was just this insistence on tearing apart families like I know in other religious groups that happens I know there is shunning but it's not the same as someone literally telling you you have to do something you don't want to do you have to disconnect from your family members that's not how shunning works and other religions like in other religions shunning is more more akin to the way disconnection is supposed to work in Scientology where you're literally just removing people from your life who are damaging and hostile and antagonistic to you right like it if a Scientologist disconnects from a family member who speaks to the press about Scientology I think that's a good example of how shunning works in other groups you have broken the rules but in Dillon's case all he did was leave the Sea Org and he didn't want to go back he never said one word a bad about Scientology he never spoke to the press he never did anything and his whole family still was forced to disconnect from him and he made sure the deception the deception that you're lied to about what your donations are being used for you're lied to about what it is you're being sold you are relied to about what it is you're going to get you know that doesn't happen in Christianity or Judaism or or Islam so yeah I would totally add to that Aaron that you know I something I struggle with is I have owned I've only ever experienced Scientology so to me from the beginning that was it's not that it was normal it's not that it was you know what I expected it just was my life it was never my choice I was born into it from the age of four I was in the cadet organization you know so to say well how does Scientology compared to other religions I've never been in another religion and frankly because of my experiences I'm not planning to I have all respect for people in their beliefs and I would say you know I don't know obviously this is not a discussion of our religious beliefs but I'm scarred big time and that's okay but thank you um so to say time our um you know I don't know it just to me I I have to I have to add that as part of a conversation how bad is Scientology I don't know I that's all the only my that's been my only only experience ever but I do know that since leaving Scientology I've learned that the world out here there is such a caring empathetic beautiful place but the general agreement the general consensus of the importance of family the importance of relationships etcetera you know help people be kind all these other things the strength of that outside is so much greater than in Scientology right absolutely Claire when you were in the Sea Org did you feel like you were engaged in something spiritual or religious uh honestly no I think I was you know trying to convince myself of that at various different times um but I think as an SI org member you just become numb it was just so much about you know make it through the next day you know not try not to be forced to divorce your husband try not to think about blowing are you gonna be able to eat dinner are you gonna get paid this week yeah oh shoot you lost your you know like for me I lost dining privileges for six months I lived on I'm not joking I lived on Tiger Milk bars for six months talk about forgetting weight us plan from hell I was a hundred pounds five seven by the time I left by the time I was in the Riverside bus station friggin running for my life that that was the state I was in so you know I don't know I just came to realize that your your ration your powers of reasoning your powers of critical thinking becomes so damaged in an environment like that that to say that I had some thought that I was you know sure yes when I started I was like oh I'm gonna help people but really what does that mean and and actually if I'm truly honest with myself the pressure to join the Sea Org was much more about I'd been hounded by Sea Org recruiters from the age of when my mother routed out of the sea organization and I honestly believed I had no way out that's that's how I ended up in the sea organization that's that's the truth it's not that I thought I was gonna be helping you know billy-bob recover or I don't know it's it was not about that it was much more personal of I cannot get these damn recruiters off my I can't I can't get away from them and at one point I even had asked my stepfather I bled with him like every time the phone rang you know I was just a nervous wreck like can you please help me get these seorak recruiters off my back and he looked at me that well did you did the Partiers course right like yes so you should be able to deal with any communication situation no matter how tough okay so that's a no then you were how old at that time thirteen thirteen and your stepfathers refusing to intervene on your behalf and tell these guys to leave you the alone I mean that's the same thing as saying yeah fend for yourself like you might as well say no I want you to join the sirak I'm not gonna help you yeah no ironically here's the irony er here's the irony just to complete that thought out ten years later I was in RTC and they were trying to recruit my sister for the C organization and my stepfather wouldn't allow it and I she told me this my sister showed me this so I wrote it and listen so I wrote a Karen him actually I think I wrote a things that should not be report dang well he's stopping my sister from being recruited cuz of course you know hey I'm an RTC and I I learned about this so technically I should report it so listen he didn't talk to me for two years after that but the best part is he wasn't talking to my mom told me oh by the way he hasn't been talking to you for two years I'm like what what are you talking about I talked I never saw him so I had no idea so it was completely lost on me that he had stopped talking to me Wow Wow how dare you put his ethics in like that I know right um did you choose to write things that shouldn't be report so that you wouldn't have to send him a copy yes absolutely absolutely but he found out about it anyway so big big lot of luck that did but Erin that's awesome today is January rd right yeah yeah tomorrow is January th that is the day and the dated the the date of the police report when Mark blew the base years ago Wow Wow how many years ago I don't know if you years ago I don't know if you've ever seen the police report but we included it in the paperback version of marks book and it's a good read like knowing nothing mark never said anything bad what's that I was gonna say I have the book I can't remember if it was the paperback of the heart I probably have a hardback actually yeah in the paperback version because we didn't actually have we didn't know the police report existed until or we did we had no idea even existed so what some I've got to read that what's the gist does it does it accuse him of like leaving with stolen money and all sorts of nonsense yeah no no no this is the police report that was that was put together by so Marc drove off on his motorcycle security pursued him ran him off the road and as that altercation was happening a passerby called - - this is the police report from that night on one call like the responding officers put together this police report and here's here's the amazing part of that when we were doing our lawsuit the responding officers were actually deposition dand they explained that they called for backup because they felt threatened by the large number of security men like security guards that were in the the gold security vehicle and and the best part to me the part that was just unbelievable there was only there was a woman officer that was she was the head police officer over these officers she she is the one that insisted that the police report be put together even though mark did not press charges and he even though he claimed nothing happened she looked in his records and saw that he was married to me and that's the only reason that report was created and unfortunately she passed away but let me tell you I am so grateful to that as it's just you know it just to me to me that said so much about that you know the police the police know what's going on they can't necessarily do everything that they might want to do anyway it's quite something but be does any report documents exactly what happened from their perspective you know has anyone ever contacted you guys about doing a movie on marks book um not yet you know escape Karla Zamudio and Rachel did a short movie of it I thought they did an excellent job and they but nothing has happened on it yet Never Say Never though and so where was that movie um I will get the link for it because I I'm not actually sure sure it's called escape and they didn't were a really good job it was just like the the just you know obviously it's like a five or ten minute short I got it who does mark want to play yeah I'm thinking sean astin exactly maybe Christian Slater somebody commented that they're disturbed that ex-scientologists haven't taken a religion and my I would only comment to that I think you know I think it's hard to explain how personal that is have a question it's also hard to explain how scarred I feel personally I'm talking totally for myself how scarred I feel so I'm just being completely honest like I am very reluctant to to go into an organized religion for many different reasons it's not that I don't you know have prayers for other people and that I you know I anyway again it's not a discussion of beliefs but just say give us time and patience time does not heal always sure right and again it's not that it's someone's souring on the subject of religion because of a bad religious experience necessarily it's you don't believe in God or Jesus or heaven or hell in Scientology so why would leaving Scientology all of a sudden make you want to believe in God or Jesus in heaven right now like it's not this logical progression and it's not that Scientology turns someone off on it because it was so bad it's that someone who's in

Scientology never believed those things with a few exceptions I mean there are some people who've left the Sea Org and are now born-again Christians or or you know practice their their their Judaism faith or or are Christians I actually know many um but that but my thing people should think about in the terms of someone who leaves the grew up in the Sea Org and then leaves if anything they would now have to choose to be involved in religion for the first time in the way most Americans think of religion I'm one of these guys by the way who would be hard-pressed to sit down and on paper explain to you why Scientology is not a religion Scientology is a fraud it's a lie it's a con it's and I'm not sure those things disqualify it from being a religion it's abusive it's all these things but on paper and really we're just talking semantics here I'm not sure those characteristics disqualify something from being a religion but when you leave Scientology you have to think of us you would not have to decide whether you want to have a religion for the first time because I will speak from my personal experience I never thought of Scientology as a religion I always thought that the whole range cleany was for tax reasons and it wasn't a secret it was like we're saving the world we're the best thing ever why shouldn't we have tax-exempt status and if in order to get that you have to call yourself a religion and call yourself a church then who cares um you know like it wasn't a I knew that the reason we were doing that was for tax-exempt status and I thought that was okay there was nothing wrong with that so anyway I think I've said everything yeah you know like yeah the only thing I would add to that because I went growing up in England you know I I heard the word cult from the age of six you know cuz we would get called names and sign oh and this and that the other and I remember asking my mom thing what's a cult and and she's a tall you know it's just people calling us names cuz they fade out you know they're bad people but I remember I was on on study one day it's insane Hill in the course room so I went to the dictionary and looked up the word cult and and I just read read each of the definitions on my this is exactly what we are what's the problem you know of course at age seven age eight it doesn't have the same significance as it's supposed to necessarily and with no filters but I was like well yeah absolutely we fit all those definitions perfectly what's the problem I don't I don't get why they're fighting this you know it absolutely was that from beginning to end and it was not that oh my religion is I I can't even remember ever saying that actually now that I think about it oh what's your religion oh I'm a Scientologist you know it wasn't about that it was about that's my entire life from beginning to end and therefore why you know it becomes a myriad of problems if you the second you start questioning that you're in in the rabbit hole on your way out here's the bottom line right exactly so one of the questions that was asked Oh have you heard from any

Scientologists since your show err yes we have actually um a few a few different you know there's all different versions of I don't know in my experience most current Scientologists are under the radar in some form or another and so I've gotten so many messages from people who are still in but who are you know cooperating for the sake of all this girl wants to still be able to speak to her mother but you know and many of them are just saying thank you for everything you're doing thanks for speaking out it's making a difference you know really encouraging messages and also to people leaving like mark got a call from well we talked about on that on the show I think he thought a call from somebody who had ordered his book they had been on course that day left watched the show ordered marks book and we're reading it um you know so that there's just the value in that you know I've always had the view if you can save one person it was worth it you know if you can expose one aspect of what what this supposed

church quote-unquote does because they're not a church then it was worth it so yes absolutely we've heard from many Scientologists I haven't heard from my family you know they've all done well no they haven't all done hate videos on me my mom has my stepdad my brother and I won't lie that hurts you know but I can't bring myself and won't bring myself to watch those videos just because I don't believe in reading scripts written by OSA right right um so anyone who buys a copy of marks book right now is a do un mark both autographed them are the hard copies the soft copies is awesome if it's purchased through the website which is Bloomberg accom then we both autograph the the hardback and paperback books they are still also available on Amazon either just not signed or you know on signed versions as well but yes anything purchased through through the website with we're both signing those nice marks mentioned every time every time Scientology launches one of its big attacks on you guys it just results in more book sales which is hilarious your garden yeah and then it's like the church runs ads on like Chris Shelton's YouTube channel and you know they think they're cutting across his message by using his comm lines to get out their message and I'm like you're paying Chris Shelton to do videos about you I know I know blood logic and rationality has never been their strong suit yeah so when you were when we were still waiting for you to join in the first video I did kind of a whole monologue telling people that they could go to the supporters of Leah Remini Facebook group pull up the members list pull up the moderators list see the show contributors and tag them in posts asking them to do their own you know Facebook live Q&A videos and so I'm gonna have to figure out how to edit that add that video in with this video and if I put it up on YouTube but um I don't I've been I would love if the other contributors would just um just you know talk to each other on videos just do Q&A videos because there's I mean doing this is like an hour-long extra extra special footage for the show thing like you know what I mean like I don't even know how to get those extra special footages that they were airing for those seasons we've tried you know yeah no this is aftermath raw the uncut and there's so much it's hard and I think it's important you know the there is yeah you know like um there absolutely is you probably haven't seen these but I started doing chats with uh with Nathan rich on the YouTube channel we have like over eight hours yeah of chat like over six video like it's insane I think our last chat one was like three hours over two hours long yeah yeah and it is amazing to to in demonstrating how small the world of Scientology actually is because it's it's so amazing to me that each person involved like I've never met Nathan rich and I've never talked to him but I'm sure that we know we know mutual people and you know and certainly I almost went to mace Kingsley I knew about the ranch you know so it just I don't know

I think that alone is very powerful in breaking down the false picture that Scientology has tried to present to the world and when you talk about actual facts like really why why why does my story matter it only matters because they made it matter and I I was ready to just walk on like I was just gonna pretend in my mind I was going to say okay that's a closet I've walked out of that closet I'm locking the door I'm throwing away the key I'm gonna do my best to pick up the pieces that I mean I have left that's my life and get on with it and and build a life that I love and that I you know but I'm now free to create I was never gonna talk about it the fear ingrained in me was so strong but you know the harassment and the bullying and everything else that ensued when Mark started just dispelling rumors on the internet telling he was like no that's not what happened here's what actually happened true stories and what what ensued was just so nuts and and for me when it it just it's bottle necked with when they sent child services to our house and it was that exact moment when for me all bets were off and I was I was not going to stay silent any longer Wow incredible yeah it's funny I'm the church would probably say that the reason most of the people from the show know each other is because they're just a small disaffected cabal trying to take down Scientology I'm like no most of us know each other because Scientology's literally that small like there's no other religion where you could be like oh I'm a Scientologist I'm from Los Angeles oh you are do you know such and such oh of course I do you imagine me like meeting a Christian from Chicago oh you're you're a Christian from Chicago you must know Steve he's like no we don't know I was trying to do some math you know even in the recent promo for the for the New Year's Eve event they they didn't say million but they said Millions so if we go three million Scientologists there's only one hundred and seventy five Scientology organs in the world that would be , Scientologists per org there's not even , Scientologists in the Tampa Bay area there's like , Scientologists in the Tampa Bay area and that's like one of the most anywhere outside of Los I'm gonna rant yeah all right well shall we cut it off here yes and we'll do better next time on the technical issues but at least we got it up and running fantastic this has been fun thanks everyone for hanging in there with us and we'll talk to you soon awesome I bye you.

AAron smith-Levin YouTube surfing in the tunnel Scientology growing up? Is it even possible?