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Senior Class sub has gone private (self.infertility)

oh-no-variessick of this shit. 2 IVF, last FET coming...... が 投稿

Hi Everyone,

After Thursday's discussion about whether or not r/seniorclass would benefit from going private, we believe that the consensus among both lurkers and members was that we should try life out as a private sub.

As a result, we will be taking the sub private this weekend. There are a few concerns that we want to be mindful of with this sub going private:

1. Lurkers: We know that lurkers sometimes benefit from our vast knowledge of the desolate landscape of bullshit that is infertility. We do not want to deprive anyone of this! More importantly, we know that some r/infertility users have relationships with Senior Class members and that those non-SC members would enjoy being able to keep track of our goings on.

So, we propose that users of the main sub, with a minimum of 6 months of very active post history can apply for lurking membership. Please message the mods with some details about yourself and your history if you think you meet the lurker membership guidelines. These lurkers will not be allowed to post or comment in our dailies or threads.There is no mechanism to prevent them from doing so, so we will be relying on the honour system and our members will be reporting those who break the rules to ensure the community rules are adhered to.

Not all lurkers will necessarily be approved - we reserve the right to reject lurkers without active post histories, who do not have any proven history of positive, frequent contributions and/or are unknown to us (meaning we can't determine from your history if you meet this criteria) or with a history of bad behaviour on the main sub to protect our members

Approved lurkers who do not abide by the no posting/commenting rule will be swiftly banned. We ask that approved members use the report feature and/or message the mods if they see a post from an unfamiliar name so we can check to make sure everyone is respecting our rules.

2. Membership. The same membership rules will still apply for posting/commenting privileges. 1 year of active commenting/posting history on the main sub, a diagnosis of infertility and an established treatment history with multiple interventions.

We know that there are some who feel excluded by the Senior Class and main sub split. Our going private is not intended to exclude. Rather, it was a decision made by the majority in our group to better protect the community that is so important to us.

Thank you all.

Edited to take out "relationship" which was causing some interpretation issues. Hopefully it is more clear now.

To clarify: the new lurker status guidelines were made after feedback from those who were already lurkers on the sub. We hoped that we were finding a happy medium in doing so. Fundamentally, this rule is merely making explicit what was already in place, but because the sub is going private we have had to adjust and lurkers will need to request access to view it, hence the clarifying of those rules.

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トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]Jullybeaners29, endo+2ovarian surgeries, IVF#1=CP, FET next? 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (20子コメント)

I understand the desire to go private. I also understand that the intimate relationships that have been built between you all is the point of the sub.

That being said, I think it will be hard to have it both ways. How can you expect to recruit new SC members as time goes on if you havent interacted with them at all? I've lurked and seen the comments on SC about the main sub and they are never positive. Many have even said they've unsubscribed from the main sub! I guess I just think that realistically, with these very subjective membership/popularity criteria, and now going private, there is limited ability for relationships to be built with the newer members. Which is totally fine, if that's what you all want. I just think it makes the idea of 'senior class' misleading, if the intention is really just a private space for close friends with shared experience, and not a place for anyone who has been around the IF sub and treatment for a long time seeking more experienced support. I think the delineation is important.

[–]lilpancakesDOR. 4 IVF 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Even after joining SC I still posted in IF (still comment both places), I was never popular or anything, just met the criteria for joining the sub so I joined. I don't think it's necessarily everyone is close friends, of course some are but I don't think its' as cliquey as you think.

[–]Canyouhelpmeottawawho highjacked MY FUCKING STORK?!?!?!? 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I am a moderator at Sr.class. I like many other haven't unsubscribed from the main sub and continue to make contributions here. I think that people who do unsubscribe here are at a special place of burn out / exhaustion caused by infertility.

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[–]artipants1 tube, hypothyroid. Senior Class member 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (16子コメント)

Many haven't unsubscribed from the main sub. Or unsubscribe for a while and come back. Many of us still comment here and I think the opportunity for relationship building still exists. And as I said in a previous reply, as new people join then they will already have relationships with members here.

Honestly, there was no additional way to build a relationship before it went private. Commenting by non-members was still disallowed.

[–]Jullybeaners29, endo+2ovarian surgeries, IVF#1=CP, FET next? 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I guess its the clause in italics about relationships that I don't believe was part of the original SC criteria (I could be wrong?). And perhaps the purpose of this statement was to rule out the trolls who come around here, but at the same time it sounds and feels very exclusionary.

[–]artipants1 tube, hypothyroid. Senior Class member 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think it was in the original, either. I do find it hard to believe that someone could be an active commenter here for 6 months and not have a relationship with a senior class member. I really do hope it's not as exclusionary as it sounds and feels and I don't think it was meant to be. I think it really was just for the trolls.

[–]PlumLion37, POF, out of the game 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think that based on what I'm reading from SC members maybe the way the word "relationship" was written and the way we are reading it are different.
My first thought when I read that was that one would have to be buddies with one of the mods to get in, but now that I'm reading the discussion here I'm getting the impression that it's more like a mod needs to be able to say yes, I recognize that user, they're supportive and can be trusted.

[–]oh-no-variessick of this shit. 2 IVF, last FET coming......[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes, thank you! That is what we look for. I don't need to know you personally, but I need to know of you, that you have an established history of supportive contributions and that you are in a similar place in your journey, that our users will still feel safe sharing at the personal level they do with you there and that you will be comfortable as well.

[–]Jullybeaners29, endo+2ovarian surgeries, IVF#1=CP, FET next? 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This description makes much more sense to me and definitely makes me feel differently than I initially did reading the post.

[–]traipsingalong37F | MFI | 8 IVFs, 1 mc@12wks, FET July 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This!!

[–]Jullybeaners29, endo+2ovarian surgeries, IVF#1=CP, FET next? 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I had the same first thought. That makes more sense. Thanks for your insight 😘

[–]Jullybeaners29, endo+2ovarian surgeries, IVF#1=CP, FET next? 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Also as new people join now they will have relationships with members in the SC, but the senior class split would have been in the midst of their post history, so they would have had the opportunity to build those relationships.

I think as time goes on, there will naturally be fewer and fewer people that the senior class 'knows' if only some participate in the main sub consistently.

[–]artipants1 tube, hypothyroid. Senior Class member 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (7子コメント)

People who join senior class now will still count.

So lets say FakeUserA joined IF 6 months ago. She's got some relationships with existing SC members.

FakeUserB joins IF today, when not all SC members participate here.

These two users build a relationship together and in 6 months when A joins SC, B now has a relationship with SC members.

It's meant to be a self-perpetuating cycle. I don't think there will ever be a time where it's an even split between people in SC and people who have relationships with people in SC.

Edit: and honestly, I think that if it does happen that way, the rules will need to change slightly. SC loses people to graduation or who stop trying and can't take the environment anymore. We don't want the place to ever become a ghost town.

[–]Jullybeaners29, endo+2ovarian surgeries, IVF#1=CP, FET next? 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I see what you're saying. It just seems like the bulk of the senior class left all at once and only a few have trickled in since, but perhaps that is because the split was all fairly recently. I guess only time will tell if it continues to evolve in the intended manner.

[–]oh-no-variessick of this shit. 2 IVF, last FET coming......[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can certainly see why this perception would exist, because the split occurred and there was a large exodus, but the nature of a smaller sub means that membership will be lower. However, I can say that we approve several new members each month on average.

[–]OrneryPanduhh 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

"SC loses people...who stop trying and can't take the environment anymore."

Where do those people go? I found IFchildfree, but it's a ghost town and there's glitter(ish). Is there somewhere else for the no-more-trying folks?

[–]oh-no-variessick of this shit. 2 IVF, last FET coming......[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think at a certain point some people leave the IF community in general in order to fully move on with their lives.

[–]artipants1 tube, hypothyroid. Senior Class member 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm sorry, I don't think there is a good answer. I didn't know that IFchildfree was glitter-ish. I have heard one reason for why it's so perpetually quiet. How do you support a lack of something? Here, we're supporting people still trying. There, it's just a constant lack. Once they come to terms with it, there's no point in talking about it daily. It's now just a fact of life.

I think a handful come out whenever something new is posted, but it's no longer a big part of their lives. It's just normal day to day.

[–]OrneryPanduhh 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I can see that, once you've achieved acceptance, but what about that process of getting there from here?

[–]artipants1 tube, hypothyroid. Senior Class member 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm sorry, I really don't know. Maybe you could post there to ask.

[–]HopefulZoey28F28M; PCOS & Hypothyroidism; TTC #1 since 12/2014 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (70子コメント)

I'd like to be part of the board but I fall in a weird spot here - I have been dealing with infertility for almost three years with lots of treatments and interventions - so in that respect I am quite senior in process, but I only found Reddit within the past month when I sought out a better infertility group, so my post history won't qualify for senior class or lurker.

[–]nipoezDOR IVF #3. 5 IUIs. Azoospermia MFI. TTC '12. 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (51子コメント)

Senior Class is a bit misleading. I ran into the same confusion. It's the infertility clique and cool kids club. Length of time dealing with infertility isn't a decider. Nor is length of time in this community unless it's as a highly frequent poster.

[–]tssander33F | TTC#1|MFI | 3 IUIs | 1 IVF |FET Feb 23 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I couldn't agree with you more u/nipoez. I stick around the sub because it is a helpful place, but I've seen the "cool kids" take down others en masse if the opinion is even mildly unpopular. Again, I stay here because 90% of the info is helpful, but at times, I question being a member of an online support community that perpetuates exclusion. Yes, I understand that you "get what you put into it", but realize that infertility in itself is time consuming, and it's not always easy to post in the dailies regularly.

[–]BadUsername5Unexplained, IUI x 8, IVF/ICSI x 3 37 ポイント38 ポイント  (41子コメント)

I'll just say when the senior class subreddit first started up I was excited because at the time I had gone through 3 years of treatment and multiple IUI and IVF cycles and been on this board the entire time (under this and another screen name) and still didn't qualify because I'm not a "frequent" poster. I was initially super bummed about that and really felt excluded.

Now just for the record, that's totally cool. They can have a sub for their group but imo the title "senior class" is misleading and tbh the rules for being approved as a lurker outlined above seem draconian and really exclusionary. I know I'll get downvoted but whatever. I repeat I find nothing wrong with the sub and what they want to do with it, just wish there had been more places for people like me who read this sub every day, have been through a lot, but don't post much. I realize that might be a niche market though lol.

[–]trixylix 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (8子コメント)

I think the very fact that you need to justify your belonging there indicates that it is a clique, I also find the title quite patronising - if I'm honest I think it is just an extension of the daily thread for long-term members. I have been semi-active here for around 3 years, had 4 retrievals, a mmc, now on donor eggs but am not a participant of the daily threads because I find the timing all wrong (I'm in the UK) so have no-one to interact with on them in a 'live' environment or have to trail through about 100 comments of chitterchatter which has become meaningless 10 hours later and therefore am not part of the cool club... I enjoy the specific threads, I don't mind the newbie questions, but I find the addition of a 'senior class' suggests that some longer-standing members feel above it.

[–]BadUsername5Unexplained, IUI x 8, IVF/ICSI x 3 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Yep, that's all exactly the reasons why I don't participate in the dailies as well. Yet that seems to be a metric they are going by when there are tons of legit reason why people might not participate in those threads.

I enjoy the specific threads, I don't mind the newbie questions, but I find the addition of a 'senior class' suggests that some longer-standing members feel above it.

Exactly, I read just about every specific thread that gets posted and follow those as best I can. I don't know if they feel above it, I get their frustration and understand WHY SC was formed. I can see how it seems that way though with some of the language used and I've honestly not lurked that sub in a long, long time but I'm confused by some of the seemingly conflicted things being said. The OP said their "vast knowledge" can be helpful to others so they will approve lurkers. Except the people they will approve as lurkers are active posters here where others with "vast knowledge" can help them, so I'm not sure the point when lurkers aren't allowed to post (so they can't ask or answer questions anyway). Also, another SC poster said that the forum is mostly dailies and about personal lives beyond IF, so again, why bother having lurkers at all. I guess more than anything, I'm just confused.

Again, not trying to knock their sub. As an outsider and long-time (4+ years now) reader/lurker/occasional poster in this sub some of the rules perplex me and that's all that I'm saying. It is NOT only "new" users who are confused about this as another said. I feel like the feelings of people like you and I who have been here a long time and yet we feel excluded are constantly undermined and we are told we are wrong and that has always frustrated me.

[–]OrneryPanduhh 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (6子コメント)

FWIW, I totally get the timing deal with the dailies, even though I'm in the US and thus 'on schedule'. I work long hours, so when I have time before work nobody has posted yet, and when I get off work, most everyone is done for the day. I just say fuck it and comment anyway, sometimes even days later.

The only times I've really had something timely to contribute, I was either sick, on holiday, or in crisis mode.

Say that to say this - if you do you during your timezones, I'll be reading and contributing, and I know we have plenty of members who aren't in the USA/CAN, so it might help to get those folks active as well.

(Also, this is not "at" anybody specifically, just seemed like the best place in the conversation to put it.)

[–]BadUsername5Unexplained, IUI x 8, IVF/ICSI x 3 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

if you do you during your timezones, I'll be reading and contributing, and I know we have plenty of members who aren't in the USA/CAN, so it might help to get those folks active as well.

That's true. I think a lot of people come in during the "off-times" and feel the conversations in the daily thread have moved on, or whatever they would say/contribute has already been covered and then feel a bit awkward about posting on a thread that for all purposes looks dead. I think there's a lot of things at play. This is an emotionally taxing experience for all of us and people need support no matter who they are or how often they post. This isn't regarding the SC sub specifically but just referring to other comments I have seen in this thread. I get disheartened when I see so many comments against lurkers and "non-contributing" members because as someone who has been primarily a lurker I can tell you they fucking hurt.

[–]OrneryPanduhh 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Agreed! I go through phases of lurking vs contributing regularly, depending on schedule and how I'm feeling.

Somebody (can't remember who) says something to the effect of "give when you can, take what you need" and I've always found that comforting - like this is the one place I don't always have to be "on" all the fucking time.

I guess I haven't seen (I'm new-ish, or at least I still feel new) much directed at 'non-contributing members', but I maybe I just always read that as "trolls" in my head and go on past, figuring it doesn't apply to me as a lurker. But I can totally see how that can be unfavorable and hurtful.

Not that I'm any authority on anything, but again FWIW I love to see things posted, even when I don't recognize the name, as long as it's not troll. I just assume those ppl have been here longer than me and are older/wiser (in the process, not literally) and have moved past the youngin chatter. I'm quiet IRL, so I feel like "there's ppl like me here too" when that happens.

[–]BadUsername5Unexplained, IUI x 8, IVF/ICSI x 3 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Gosh, it was a while ago, and I can't remember what the context was, but there was a discussion on the main sub here about lurkers and it was all very anti-lurker, anti-newb, and anti "non-contributing" member. It's something that pops up as a discussion from time to time. I've seen it come and go in cycles since I've been here.

There's also things like the recent (second edition) of the "contributing member intro thread." Why not just have an intro thread? How is a contributing member defined and who defines it? While I'm sure unintentional, that sort of thing can seem very unwelcoming to lurkers.

I think it would maybe be a good idea for there to be a lurker intro thread. I am a site administrator of a forums (not on reddit) and I can tell you that sometimes people just need a little nudge of encouragement. Some of my most active contributors were lurkers for a long time initially. A lot of people are shy, feel awkward coming into new groups, are introverted, etc. Plus, this infertility is so scary to even think about for a lot of people and that doesn't help. For reasons I don't think I'm the person to start that thread but I think something like that wouldn't hurt to help lurkers feel more welcome.

IDK, I'm just spit-balling now, but I just gather from this thread and the reaction to my posts that there are others who feel the way I do, and some other "lurkers" have posted in here as well. I would like to see something once in a while to help create an overall inclusive environment that encourages people to speak up, rather than expecting everyone to have the social ability to just join a new group and dive right in.

[–]MollyElla511Summer break - test results before IVF #3 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you want a non-contributing member thread, post it.

[–]OrneryPanduhh 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Agreed. I'm not the most forthcoming of people generally, so I get the lurking thing as a way to easy a toe into the waters so to speak.

I don't know, but I think the Intro thing was intended to be inclusive - it was my impression that was just to mean "not only brand-new ppl, but also folks that are already members" as opposed to "brand new intros" thread. Maybe we have a terminology problem?

This whole thread reminds me of a conversation that was had on an LGBTQ+ community over what the proper umbrella terms were going to be for the group, so as not to have to type out a 14 letter acronym, but also to not exclude anyone from belonging. Spit balling myself, but what if we added to the side-bar "acceptable group definitions" or something in the dictionary, or wherever that is? Something like "established members - anybody beyond their first intro thread, includes daily contributing members and frequent lurkers who have begun down this road and feel as though membership is a part of their online community identity" or something of the sort?

And then we can use those group names/terms in posts like the Re-Intro thread and similar?

Just an idea.

[–]MarbleyMarbs31 y/o unexp. 4IUI, 1st IVF mc, waiting on FET 44 ポイント45 ポイント  (15子コメント)

I was very put off by how subjective it is. Not just length of posting, but frequency and if the current members 'have a relationship' with you. Aka- do they like you enough. Are they going to discuss and vote on 'applicants'? And the whole 'stand to the side and don't dare speak' is weird. I get why they have the rule, but it sounds like a sorority at this point. I would rather them 'invite' people than make us go through an application process where our post history is analyzed. I support them going private, and I completely understand the need for their group, I just think it's being implemented poorly. If you want to be a close group of friends that can post personal stuff, awesome! Go private and be your group. But why the weird recruiting from here. And the best part? You know they're reading this thread and talking crap about us for feeling this way. Oh well I guess.

[–]lemon_sugar32, TTC since 2013, 9 ET, 2 MC, 3 CP, FFS! 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Couldn't have said it better myself!

[–]Sassafrasturnip31, DOR, 1 m/c, Asherman's, Straight to IVF 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I agree that the subjectiveness of it all doesn't sit well with me. The only time I've felt hurt in this sub is when I've been made to feel that I'm not "infertile" enough to be here. I even supported a member the other day who was getting jumped on for being only a year and a half into her journey. I know people hate this term but Grief Olympics comes to mind. It's a funny feeling to wonder if I'm infertile enough to join the club. I also am not long into my infertility journey, yes, I have a diagnosis though. Multiple treatments- well not a lot compared to some members-am I excluded now? How about when I say I was straight to IVF? Does that help me out? How about my miscarriage? Does that bump me up on the list? Or the face that my uterus was completely obliterated after that? Does the treatment for Asherman's help my case?

Weird thoughts this morning.

[–]aravisthequeen29 - 5/15 - deployment interruptus/hypothyroid, IUI1 July/Aug 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I feel the same way. I frequently feel "behind" other people who are 2+ years into infertility, because due to deployments and moves and waiting on the god-damn doctor we've been pushed back a year or so behind schedule. In addition to making me feel like we're spinning our wheels, it feels like I don't belong anywhere--certainly not at TFAB or stilltrying, but not here either. I don't feel like I'm "infertile enough" or included.

[–]MollyElla511Summer break - test results before IVF #3 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're perfectly infertile enough to be here. Your lack of a pregnancy is no different than the rest of us. In fact, I think your version may be a special kind of torture since you can't move ahead despite wanting to with every fiber of your being. (Sorry if I just put a bunch of words in your mouth)

I think people need to stop comparing someone's vent session with where they are at in treatment. Not everything is a personal attack. I really enjoy your posts and what you contribute here. I've also posted in the past about having trouble having empathy for people who get pregnant on their first IUI cycle. That doesn't mean I'm disregarding other's journey. It means I'm having a shitty "poor me" day.

I have always wished people well but it does become incredibly difficult to be supportive sometimes when newer users graduate with less intervention than me and I'm still here. Does that make my feelings right? No, I think it makes me bitter.

Sometimes users need to vent those frustrations and bitterness. It come with the territory of complex stories and difficult feelings.

[–]lettertoelise9Unexp | 1 MC | TTC 1.5 yrs | IVF #1 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree that the comment about someone who is "only" 1.5 years TTC struck me as extremely catty. Infertility is technically TTC for 12+ cycles (under 35), so they are diagnosed as infertile. Would I be so dismissive to someone who was diagnosed with cancer for "only" 1.5 years? Do they not grieve and suffer the same way as someone who was diagnosed with cancer 5 years ago?

Definitely agree on the grief olympics aspect. Who is to say someone is grieving less or more? No one knows the situation and it just doesn't sit right with me.

There was another comment the other day about how someone hated that people used the term MC when it was in fact a CP. Someone can grieve a CP the same way someone grieves a MC.

It's mindboggling how people try to "one-up" the other here just because they think they've been through so much more pain. We all suffer here regardless of length of time or how many treatments or losses. I would never think that just because I lost n number of loved ones to cancer, that someone who lost n-1 number of loved ones to cancer doesn't feel the same intensity of loss or pain or suffering.

[–]baconcheesecakesauce35. DOR.0 AMH. 4x cancelled IVF. 2x failed IUI. DE Next. 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I definitely have felt like that when I was here during a major kerfuffle and some of the people (who aren't in this sub any longer) did say things that made me feel like I didn't belong at all. I think people here have gotten better about making people feel welcome, but sometimes, I feel like it needs to be reinforced. I'm also a "Direct to IVF" infertile and sometimes in the past, people didn't always wear their empathy hats.

[–]BadUsername5Unexplained, IUI x 8, IVF/ICSI x 3 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, it all seems very subjective. I also think "stand to the side and don't speak" is weird. I was thinking of it as look but don't touch. I get the need for privacy in that sub but then why allow lurkers at all? So if somebody who is only approved as a lurker posts a really good answer to a question that somebody asked, trying to help, they get banned? If they prove themselves as a good lurker (while still being active on this sub) after 6 months do they reach full-member status? It does seem a bit like a sorority and all seems a little strange to me. I agree that it seems it would be better if they made it private and invite only. Somebody said to you that they had seen your posts and hoped you would be a member. It seems they have a good idea of who they want and don't want on their sub, so why have people apply only so they can feel hurt or excluded if they don't make the cut?

[–]Feetos39, 6 IUI+Clomid, 2 IUI+inj, 1 MC, MFI, 1 IUI From IFCF 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think there's some confusion about what SC was formed for. It's a support group primarily. Folks who don't participate in discussions on IF with any regularity aren't giving back what they're taking. We're trying to offer a space where everyone participates and supports one another.

In reality, we (mods) have had to turn down membership to people we are VERY close with and care very deeply for, because they don't meet the membership criteria originally set forth. When SC formed, we had a thread discussing what the participants wanted from the new sub. We do not discriminate against people. They meet the criteria or they don't. And the criteria was created by everyone who chimed in on those early stages.

Active posting for a year was to ensure the sub didn't turn into a fly-by space. It was never meant to exclude people, and almost everyone we have had to deny has been understanding. We are exceptionally careful and don't play favorites.

[–]artipants1 tube, hypothyroid. Senior Class member 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

...what? This directly contradicts your post in senior class when we asked how lurkers felt about us going private, when we were still deciding if we should or not. Then, you were supportive and said you would want it to be private and that you were concerned about keeping up future recruitment if we did. I'll never dog on you for feeling however you feel, but I'm a little hurt at the sudden flip.

[–]MarbleyMarbs31 y/o unexp. 4IUI, 1st IVF mc, waiting on FET 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I completely stand by what I said in senior class and you're welcome to quote it completely if you'd like. Like I said above, I support the SC and I support it being private. There was always a time requirement. What I don't like is this new concept of you have to be a frequent commentor and we will review your application and then if we accept you, you may be a lurker but you can't post. There was never this 'you must comment a certain amount and have a relationship with people here' requirement before.

[–]oh-no-variessick of this shit. 2 IVF, last FET coming......[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I responded to plumlion above regarding the relationships aspect. We don't need to know you, we need to know of you. We need to see that you have an established history of supportive and positive (to the community, not that it has to be sunshine and rainbows) contributions so that adding you does not put existing members at risk for trolling and hurtful posts. We have had members apply and then attack our members on the sub. We have a member who had a Reddit stalker who was harassing her to the point she had to go dark and then change her account. Because we share personal and identifying details our users need to feel safe.

I mod here and at SC. Each sub has different needs. Things that are appropriate here aren't necessarily appropriate there. But users who are contributors here in an active, helpful and positive way are going to be known to us even if they don't have a personal relationship with us. That's what that meant.

[–]artipants1 tube, hypothyroid. Senior Class member 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Active commenting has always been a requirement. the original announcement thread here has that requirement. Note that it has never been edited.

I agree that the relationship thing seems new. I find it hard to imagine many active commenters for six months won't have a relationship with senior class members, though.

I'm not a mod so I can't say for sure, but I believe those two requirements were put in to weed out some of the more toxic members here. There are a couple of people (I can PM you one name if you'd like) who are not the kind of people I want to interact with on a regular basis anywhere, much less somewhere so vulnerable where I'm sharing so much of my private life. I highly doubt the person I have in mind would ever apply for membership there since she doesn't even comment on the dailies here, but that type of situation is probably best avoided.

[–]MarbleyMarbs31 y/o unexp. 4IUI, 1st IVF mc, waiting on FET 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I understand what you're saying and if I'm being completely honest, I don't think I could have arranged the transition to making SC private much better. Change sucks and there's no perfect way to do it. I think I, and others, were disheartened by the 'rejection' idea but we're interpreting it differently than it was meant. I survived the SC fraction and I just feel like it's happening all over again. I hate change and I'm insecure so I very well might be handling this announcement worse than a normal person should but hey, what fun is being normal anyway right?

[–]artipants1 tube, hypothyroid. Senior Class member 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep, change sucks. I just hope this is a good one.

I'm glad the wording got clarified and I really do hope this soothes any ruffled feelings.

[–]artipants1 tube, hypothyroid. Senior Class member 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

To your other points, the members will not vote on applicants. I doubt the mods will, either, but I'm not one so can't say. I imagine the mod that gets the application will look over post history and make a judgement call if the person is active and supportive.

"Stand to the side and not speak" is exactly how it's always been. We've never said people can't lurk. We've asked them to not participate until they meet the membership requirements. The only difference is that now we know who's lurking. Or at least the mods do, I guess.

Note that I am not telling or even asking you to not feel a certain way. I'm trying to change your mind by pointing out how little is actually changing. I've seen you post around here enough to have hoped you'd be one of the ones joining and this genuinely makes me sad.

[–]lemon_sugar32, TTC since 2013, 9 ET, 2 MC, 3 CP, FFS! 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'm in the same boat as you...have been through a lot but rarely post because of time differences (I'm in Aus).

[–]BadUsername5Unexplained, IUI x 8, IVF/ICSI x 3 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, time zone was a big part of the reason why I never participated much in the dailies. I'm on the west coast and by the time I got to work (where I peek at reddit) there would be 100s of comments and anything I said would be ignored anyways. I know that relatively recently they made an afternoon off-topic thread to try and help address this issue, but at the same time I'm busy and don't always have time to keep up with those threads.

[–]hotmilkyteaPCOS + MFI, 1 mc, IVF4 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm in NZ. The morning daily starts about 10pm my time by which time I'm getting ready for or in bed. By the time the afternoon daily starts I'm out and about and/or working. But I still post and like to contribute. There's no reason why you can't start up your own threads either.

[–]lemon_sugar32, TTC since 2013, 9 ET, 2 MC, 3 CP, FFS! 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I try to where possible. That's great that you make the time differences work for you, I guess I'm just shy about posting in general and I feel awkward commenting on something that's 10+ hours old when I read it.

[–]Canyouhelpmeottawawho highjacked MY FUCKING STORK?!?!?!? 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Posting doesn't have to be a long post. But regularly piping in to say "sorry to hear you are struggling", or "I agree totally unfair", or even a simple "hugs" is posting.

If you don't put in the minimum participation how can anyone know that you really are part of the sub.

If you are not willing to put in the work, why do you get the benefits?

[–]BadUsername5Unexplained, IUI x 8, IVF/ICSI x 3 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (9子コメント)

If you are not willing to put in the work, why do you get the benefits?

This attitude sucks, sorry. Lots of reasons why people might lurk. A lot of times, people are just naturally shy even in the online context. I didn't realize shy people weren't worthy or support. As others have said, a lot of people don't post in the daily threads because of time-zone differences. Some people are super busy and only have time to look on a forum like this once a week or so. I didn't realize all these people weren't worthy or support.

I've never seen a forum, not just SC but honestly /r/infertility as well, that shits so much on lurkers and "non-contributing" members (which is all very subjective and decided by who, exactly?). I've been around this sub for 4 years now and have seen it and felt it countless times. It's a bit ridiculous.

[–]artipants1 tube, hypothyroid. Senior Class member 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Honestly, in a situation like that, why would someone even want to be part of SC? We often talk about personal lives and situations and there's ongoing stories day to day. We mention our treatments and give updates regularly, but we're not discussing any groundbreaking new options. I came here for PIO tips recently because while SC could probably help, that's not what it's about. It seems that lurkers would only want to be part of that environment so they could munch their popcorn or just because they can. What's the point if you don't keep up and don't participate?

[–]BadUsername5Unexplained, IUI x 8, IVF/ICSI x 3 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Even though I am primarily a lurker, I originally (when the sub first formed) wanted to be a part of SC because at the time I felt I didn't belong here due to my experiences and length of time in treatment. I post occasionally and thought it would have been nice to read/occasionally post with others who were in the same boat. Is that really so hard to understand? I'm talking about when it first formed, not how it might be now which I know nothing about.

It seems that lurkers would only want to be part of that environment so they could munch their popcorn or just because they can.

No, it's because they want to read about experiences that most closely match their own. It's really that simple.

[–]BittersweetTeaUnexplained, 3 IUIs, 2 IVF, 3 FET, 2 CP, 1 TFMR. 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Your time zone difference excuse doesn't fly. There are lots of people here on the West Coast, Europe, Asia, and Australia that make an effort to post regularly or just give support to people who need it. Whether you post in the daily or not is not a deal breaker. What IS a dealbreaker is if you only post here when you have a question or need support but don't bother supporting someone else who also needs support. It doesn't matter if you comment "I'm sorry about your loss" 15 hours or even 2 days after someone posted announcing their miscarriage. It's the fact that you did and and gave support.

[–]BadUsername5Unexplained, IUI x 8, IVF/ICSI x 3 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Glad you are the sole arbiter of what flies or not. Frankly, I'm tired of when people who feel the way I do speak up about this issue, certain people come along (always the same ones) to try and shout us down and tell us how wrong we are. Do whatever you want, nobody is saying you can't have your SC sub, but when your criteria are exclusionary as they are meant to be exclusionary, don't be surprised when people call the sub exclusionary.

[–]baconcheesecakesauce35. DOR.0 AMH. 4x cancelled IVF. 2x failed IUI. DE Next. 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I also have mixed feelings about the "senior class" as well. I've been here for two years and watched most of the people I knew move on in one way or another. I figured that I would fit over there, I don't qualify because I took some months off in my second year(2016), to recover from a pretty severe accident and surgery. Turns out I wasn't active enough in 2016, as opposed to what I was doing in 2015. At this point, it doesn't make sense for me to keep trying to connect. I guess, I'll stay a "super senior" with all of y'all here.

[–]nipoezDOR IVF #3. 5 IUIs. Azoospermia MFI. TTC '12. 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Similar situation to mine. I was very active around 2013-2015 but scaled back as we moved across the country, got settled, and found a new RE. We're still actively pursuing IVF. I tend to chime in with answers & support mostly on the occasional post that isn't getting traction or MFI threads. Based on the name alone, I applied when the sub first split and was denied.

The mods did an excellent job explaining what the sub was actually about and who it is for. Even in this thread, I think they're communicating very clearly. I feel a private sub to share personal information within a tight knit community out of sight of search engines and the public is a great idea. It's just the name that seems to cause confusion for me, to person I replied to, you, and others.

[–]baconcheesecakesauce35. DOR.0 AMH. 4x cancelled IVF. 2x failed IUI. DE Next. 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think that I would categorize myself as confused. I think it's just that as the sub was originally presented vs how I perceive it now, has definitely changed. The relationship angle hasn't been played up as much in the past, which stings because I did have a relationship with some of the people over there. Who knows now since many of them are not over here that often, unless we're talking about the sr class or some drama is going down. I want to say that "I could pm those people when I lurk..." but is that really meaningful to be looking on the outside?

It's great that they feel comfortable to be themselves in a private sub, and I don't dispute that. I just think that it's going the direction of a sorority or a private facebook group, from my point of view.

[–]hotmilkyteaPCOS + MFI, 1 mc, IVF4 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Your response is misleading. A requirement for posting status was being a posting member here for a year or more. Now it's being dropped to 6 months for very active users.

For me, when the sub split, I had only been posting here for 9 months or so but had lurked a lot longer so I felt a connection with many of those who moved on. Fair or not a posting limit was set so I lurked and respected their wishes for me not to contribute.

I don't really understand why someone who is new and doesn't have history with the older members of the forum feel that they have a right to be included in their personal life stories.

I get that there's an awful lot of new people in here at times asking the same old question (use the search function people!), but that goes on every other subreddit. I don't think that a requirement to be an active contributing member with established relationships in this subreddit before moving on (with others who will move on with you if they don't graduate) is a horrible thing.

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]artipants1 tube, hypothyroid. Senior Class member 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Absolutely not true! They'll have the same requirements as anyone else.

    I'm assuming your talking about needing to have a relationship with current members? For one, senior class members often still post here regularly. Many of us go through cycles where we can and can't handle it but an awful lot of us never leave here for good. For another, as people join then those people will have relationship with newer if people and the cycle can continue

    [–]trixylix 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Having been around this sub for the last 3 years I couldn't agree more, r/nipoez

    [–]HopefulZoey28F28M; PCOS & Hypothyroidism; TTC #1 since 12/2014 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Makes sense

    [–]oh-no-variessick of this shit. 2 IVF, last FET coming......[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (17子コメント)

    Thanks for your comment. A big part of Senior Class is the intimacy of relationships and the level of personal details that are shared (identifying personal detail, not fertility detail). As a result, we are limiting lurkers and members to the stated criteria around frequent posting and length of time as part of the reddit infertility community. There are many people here on the r/infertility board that have a lot of experience as well, and many of us frequent both, so hopefully you will find a lot of support here. And when you meet the criteria please send us a message and let us know. :) Good luck.

    [–]jina10029, MFI, stuck in limbo 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (15子コメント)

    Would you be willing to elaborate on the "multiple interventions" aspect of the membership clause?

    I'll be honest, I don't and haven't lurked on the seniorclass sub; but I know that - dealing with pretty severe MFI - I have a long road ahead of me. As much as I wish that I won't be here a year from now, the truth is I'm probably going to be here a year from now.

    But one of the treatments for MFI is literally "give the male half a ton of supplements and Clomid, wait 3 months and come back." I know a member here who I'm pretty sure was in SC and has graduated due to successful treatment told me they tried for a year at the recommendation of their doctor to improve her husband's sperm count; this is a common recommended treatment with MFI.

    So treatment for me is literally wait and see with absolutely no control over the situation.

    I realize this makes me completely useless when it comes to talking IUI or IVF protocols... god, I wish I had the opportunity to talk those things, because it would actually mean I might be getting somewhere. But in a year, will it make me less able to apply when I'm still stuck in sucky infertility limbo because we're trying one last-ditch effort to make my husband's body do what it's supposed to do?

    [–]Mochikimchi36, clomid 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (12子コメント)

    The multiple interventions thing really bothers me, too, for a different reason: you need to have enough money or good enough insurance to belong. I got suuuuper lucky with medicated, timed intercourse cycles after two years of trying, on my very last allowed cycle. But, that would have been the end of treatments for me if it hadn't worked. We couldn't afford to pursue further treatments.

    So, because my insurance sucks and my income isn't astronomical, I would not have ever been good enough. Some people have IVF fully covered, or have it covered enough that it costs as much as my stupid f'ing Clomid cycles and diagnostic testing costed me with my shitty insurance.

    I'm sorry about your limbo. Waiting is such a sucky part of this.

    [–]jina10029, MFI, stuck in limbo 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Yeah, I agree; I'm kind of assuming/hoping that the same rule would apply about messaging the mods: "hey, I've only done one medicated cycle but you know me, you've seen me around, and we're waiting until Spring 2019 when we'll be able to pay for IVF to continue further treatment."

    And yeah, I'm not a patient person by nature so this suuuuucks. We've already been waiting a couple years to even find out the cause for our infertility, and I was hoping for a quick fix 😂😂 welcome to the real world, jina; nothing's quick in IF land.

    By the way, I've seen you around and I love your username. Although I don't know how much I'd like kimchi flavored mochi... 😳

    [–]Mochikimchi36, clomid 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Haha! Thanks! Kimchi flavored Mochi would be disgusting. I love both, just not together. They're actually my cats' names.

    I hope a bundle of money falls from the sky for you to be able to get treatments sooner or you're one of the lucky ones who has success with the urologist's treatments.

    [–]jina10029, MFI, stuck in limbo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Haha awww cute names!! 😁😁

    I won't reject a bundle of money from the sky... but I'd be more surprised if the urologist's treatment works lol.. wouldn't reject that either. Heck, I wouldn't complain if someone dropped a random baby on my doorstep.

    [–]groovyfinch40, 2ndary. 4 yrs, 1mc 1ep 6cp, 7 failed IVF 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Off-topic, but yeah, quick fixes only seem to work for other people.

    [–]jina10029, MFI, stuck in limbo 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    "Don't stop trying! My second-cousin's best friend's sister had her miracle baby right before she was ready to do IVF!"

    [–]groovyfinch40, 2ndary. 4 yrs, 1mc 1ep 6cp, 7 failed IVF 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    "Try menstrual cups!"

    "OMG yes! I'd been trying for three months with no success and I used cups and it totally worked!"

    Like, excuse me while I just can't even.

    [–]PlumLion37, POF, out of the game 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Yeah. This one I struggle with a bit too. I mean, I got married, we tried for a while, went to the RE and got told it's donor eggs or nothing.
    I don't think we're going to do donor eggs, and therefore probably will never wish to join the SC sub, but if we do that will be literally our only intervention, through no fault/choice of our own.

    [–]Mochikimchi36, clomid 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Hugs to you. What a crappy position to be in.

    [–]artipants1 tube, hypothyroid. Senior Class member 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I hadn't started my first IUI cycle when I joined. I'd done TI only. But my body didn't want to cooperate so it took me a full year to get through three cycles of TI with various medications. I'd also done multiple doses of progesterone to fix my LP and had various tests, because those things were covered by insurance. And yeah, I was about to start my first IUI.

    IVF isn't required. One of the mods there has not and will never do IVF. I would have only done IVF if I could do it cheaper abroad and ended up going with even less expensive donor embryos. There are several of us with no insurance who are just chugging through the best we can as we can afford the less expensive treatments.

    [–]Mochikimchi36, clomid 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm glad all of this discussion is taking place to clarify things.

    [–]oh-no-variessick of this shit. 2 IVF, last FET coming......[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Exactly. I spend 3-4 months at a time benched because of my shitty cysty ovaries. It took 4 month just to get my body right for an ERA. We know not every situation is the same. And I for one have no insurance coverage and we have very average jobs. We've taken equity from our house to pay for our IVF cycles. But, it is true that women who have experienced the lengthy and arduous treatment process (regardless of what that process looks like) will have a different experience than people who have not. Not better or worse, just different. Part of the interventions requirement is about shared experience and context. But there is no hard "you must have done meds, IUI and IVF to qualify". It's just about having a shared experience.

    [–]Canyouhelpmeottawawho highjacked MY FUCKING STORK?!?!?!? [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I am a moderator at senior class but have never done an IVF cycle myself. I did 3 medicated cycles with timed intercourse, 3 medicated cycles with IUI.

    I gave up at that point, and only by shear luck and begging did I have a chance to do a single donor egg cycle, but that wasn't until after I became a mod at senior class.

    The interventions don't have to be an IVF cycle. But you can't have done a single clomid with timed intervention cycle, or taken metaforim and then gotten a free sex baby and thing that counts as multiple intervention.

    When we put that requirement in, we were careful that the minimum was not IVF because as you say some people can't afford it and for some it doesn't make sense to do IVF.

    [–]oh-no-variessick of this shit. 2 IVF, last FET coming......[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I hope you find success before you get to that point, but if you don't, message the senior class mod team or myself and we can chat. We aren't unreasonable, we know sometimes not every single facet of the criteria can be met as prescribed. That being said, length of time and history of active contribution on this sub are more of a factor than interventions as SC is an intimate space with active contributions and sharing of person details that make us identifiable in real life, so we need to be more careful about membership than on a large anonymous sub like this main board.

    [–]jina10029, MFI, stuck in limbo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Thanks for the clarification. I kind of assumed that was the case, and I thought the "multiple interventions" rule was probably put in place to prevent the "like I've totally been trying for 5 years and the doctors said I'm infertile but I'm just gonna keep temping and see if I can make a baby LOL" type situations from arising. I mean, I understand if situations make it difficult to receive treatment (saving up to afford it, moving cross-country, etc.) but I have seen people who know there's a problem and simply refuse to address it out of some... naive optimism???

    [–]HopefulZoey28F28M; PCOS & Hypothyroidism; TTC #1 since 12/2014 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Thank you for clarifying.

    [–]AlmightyWaffles30F, kitchen sink FET#2 6/12, PCOS 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Oh no, I appreciate all your work as a mod here and on SC. Going private seemed like the best option and I think the lurker rules seem entirely reasonable. Just commenting here to day thank you and sorry you got all this back lash!

    [–]oh-no-variessick of this shit. 2 IVF, last FET coming......[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Thanks Waffles, I really appreciate that!

    [–]qualmick28 | Unexplained, pre-interventions 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    I just wanted to mention automod can be set up to enforce lurk-dom in a few ways - probably the easiest would be to dole out flair and remove anything with lurker flair.

    [–]closedblueyes32F | pcos.hypo.endo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I'm curious about this - do you have any links to elaborate on how to do this and what kind of effort it entails? I've used the auto mod to set up weekly posts and whatnot, but how do you use it to dole out flair?

    [–]qualmick28 | Unexplained, pre-interventions [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    Lemme see here. Looks like you could get it to dole out flair based on a keyphrase in a comment: 

     type: comment
 includes: ("I am a lurker, flair me!")
 set_flair: ("lurker", "lurker")

    You'd want to turn off user assigned flair here first though. That page also lets you manually edit people's flair if you happened to mess something up.

    And then tell automod to remove anything with that flair CSS class, by editing the config page (located at... https://www.reddit.com/r/IFseniorclass/wiki/edit/config/automoderator/). 

    type: any
author:
    flair_css_class: "lurker"
action: remove
action_reason: Lurker trying to comment

    Probably some other way to do it - that's the simplest I can think of. Didn't see too much about it on /r/automoderator. Hope that helps! :)

    [–]closedblueyes32F | pcos.hypo.endo [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    This is so helpful! Thank you.

    [–]trixylix 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (13子コメント)

    I completely get the reasoning behind setting up the sub, and I also appreciate that some people need that - what has bothered me from the first time I saw it (after a 3 month break while we wrangled donor eggs and how we'd pay for it so I needed to not think about everything for that time) was, quite frankly, the appalling title of the sub.

    Most other IF subs have a really clear outline of what they are there for: coming to terms with being childfree; graduating in a positive way to IFbabies, etc, whereas to me Senior Class suggests a place where the grown-ups go get away from the children, where people who believe they have won the gold in the pain olympics get to go because they are more deserving of tea and sympathy than those left behind. It certainly doesn't suggest it is simply a place where friends have decided to meet to support each other on a more personal level.

    Senior Class sounds like you think you are more important than anyone else going through any fertility issues. Most of us here in the infertility world spend our time IRL feeling like outsiders, wanting to be part of a club that we are excluded from. We know what happens in the club, we can see over the fence into the sunny grassy area but we can't go in and play. You have managed to create exactly the same exclusion within this online safe space. And for me, it's all down to the language you've used, by calling it Senior Class.

    [–]PlaidStegoSince 2000, Many ivf cycles, many mc 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (8子コメント)

    Maybe it's because I've never bought into high school culture but I haven't a clue as to why the name senior class is in some way offensive, we are the senior citizens of the infertility world. It's not a cool kids group, I sincerely wish that no one would ever have to be there.

    [–]M_DuppertonAnovulatory --> IVF with 3 transfers, 2 losses (9w, 20w) 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Not all the Senior Class members are the senior citizens of the infertility world. At minimum, they have been dealing with infertility for a year and have been posting on the main sub for 12 months. Although I'm not sure that second part is even true for all SC members- my impression was that the 12-month posting history is new, so some members with shorter histories have been grandfathered in. Also, some senior class members are currently well into pregnancy or have even already had kids - they're actually not currently infertile. Meanwhile, many people on the main infertility board have been struggling with infertility longer than that but didn't happen to start posting on reddit until more recently. Or they have been posting on reddit about infertility for years, but then took a break at some point. It's kinda sad that there's not a place for them. Maybe a new space should be created.

    [–]LadyLatitude|Endo|DOR|Barren Bitch|Senior Class 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Achieving pregnancy and having a baby doesn't mean they are no longer infertile. That title never goes away.

    [–]M_DuppertonAnovulatory --> IVF with 3 transfers, 2 losses (9w, 20w) 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I completely agree that infertility never goes away. I know that very well myself. I had a successful transfer in January after a crap ton of previous complications - five egg retrievals, two IVF losses (9w miscarriage of identical twins, 20w neural tube defect with a D&E), thin uterine lining and scar tissue after the D&E, three uterine surgeries, and a bunch of other crap. Not to mention approximately $60,000 in out of pocket costs. So I don't mean to say that infertility doesn't stick with those who "graduate" - it completely does.

    At the same time, I don't think it makes sense to include people who have ultimately found success while excluding people who are actively still trying for pregnancy and have been for years. I think the latter camp needs a senior class board even more than the former, especially since current or past pregnancies aren't discussed on that board. That doesn't mean I think people who have been successful should be excluded if you're all fine with including them. Just that if you're going to exclude some groups at all, the successful group would seem to be higher on the list of candidates vs. people who have not yet found success.

    [–]ArsLuna 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    There have always been a year posting rules on Ifseniorclass. It's not new.

    And sorry, but even if people got success, they are still freaking infertiles. There won't be fsb for us, never, for most members, it took a lot to get success, and when natural conception is impossible and will always be, you are still infertile. And IFSenior have been a tight-knitted community, where people on remission still want to cheer on their pals still in the trenches. It's call a support system.

    Not sure what you are trying to achieve by complaining about that. If you want a sub for people that been trying for years, create one.

    [–]M_DuppertonAnovulatory --> IVF with 3 transfers, 2 losses (9w, 20w) 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I apologize that I was mistaken about the year long posting rule on senior class.

    I completely agree that infertility never goes away. I know that very well myself. I had a successful transfer in January after a crap ton of previous complications - five egg retrievals, two IVF losses (9w miscarriage of identical twins, 20w neural tube defect with a D&E), thin uterine lining and scar tissue after the D&E, three uterine surgeries, and a bunch of other crap. Not to mention approximately $60,000 in out of pocket costs. So I don't mean to say that infertility doesn't stick with those who "graduate" - it completely does.

    At the same time, I don't think it makes sense to include people who have ultimately found success while excluding people who are actively still trying for pregnancy and have been for years. I think the latter camp needs a senior class board even more than the former, especially since current or past pregnancies aren't discussed on that board. That doesn't mean I think people who have been successful should be excluded if you're all fine with including them. Just that if you're going to exclude some groups at all, the successful group would seem to be higher on the list of candidates vs. people who have not yet found success.

    To be honest, I found your comment somewhat confrontational and opposed to the spirit of community. I don't think I'm "complaining" just because I'm offering an alternative viewpoint - this is a discussion board and we are having a discussion. Not everyone has to agree. Disagreements can be handled respectfully.

    While I do think there should be a sub for people who have been trying for years, I'm not in a position to create one myself given that I'm currently in the successful category (and I count every fucking day that passes hoping that I stay in that group). The suggestion of board for people who are not new was just an idea that I was putting out there. I do hope that someone else will run with it if they also think it would be beneficial.

    [–]oh-no-variessick of this shit. 2 IVF, last FET coming......[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    The 12 month history is not new. It has been in place since the beginning. The only new rules are around lurkers, which we had to formalize and because by going private we can only grant membership or not. We don't have a mechanism for granting view only while being private. When we were public we could do view only.

    The lurker rule suggestion was actually made by a lurker and several others supported it. It was not intended to create further divisions.

    [–]M_DuppertonAnovulatory --> IVF with 3 transfers, 2 losses (9w, 20w) 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm sorry that I was mistaken about the 12 month history not being new. I do appreciate that you are trying to be inclusive to lurkers while maintaining the community as a safe space for SC members. Personally, I do lurk on the board sometimes but I won't be asking for lurking status given where I am in my own journey. I had a successful transfer over the winter, and while I still very much identify as infertile after everything I've been through and will have to go through again for any future attempts, it seems inappropriate to try to establish any sort of connection to senior class at this point.

    [–]trixylix 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Equally maybe it's because I'm not american so senior class suggests more qualified...

    [–]Feetos39, 6 IUI+Clomid, 2 IUI+inj, 1 MC, MFI, 1 IUI From IFCF 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    It was actually just a tounge in cheek joke. It was a mockery of ourselves for being here so long with no success. We're never graduates - we're perpetual senior class.

    [–]trixylix 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    That explanation makes me feel much better about it, thanks! Without knowing that though....

    [–]Feetos39, 6 IUI+Clomid, 2 IUI+inj, 1 MC, MFI, 1 IUI From IFCF 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Glad that helped. It's just what the name became and it's not like it can be changed and there's been a lot of turnover in this sub so some of that history is lost. Unfortunately, some of us have been at this so long we feel like the library at Alexandria.

    [–]PlaidStegoSince 2000, Many ivf cycles, many mc 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Maybe it's because I've never bought into high school culture but I haven't a clue as to why the name senior class is in some way offensive, we are the senior citizens of the infertility world. It's not a cool kids group, I sincerely wish that no one would ever have to be there.

    [–]fl0recere36F, cycle 18, unexplained, IUI#1 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    I'm new here - 18 months actively trying, 6 months on the sub - so I joined when I was about a year in. I got my period on my 36th birthday. I was devastated and confused and looking for help. I hated the cutesy boards. I wasn't optimistic. I wanted real information. I felt isolated and alone.

    This board has been one of the best things that's ever happened to me, and I guess I feel a little defensive of it right now, and of the wonderful people on it who have been so kind to me. Starting at a year in and asking newbie questions, I never felt any of this "suffering olympics" stuff that's being thrown around here, never felt attacked, or belittled, or excluded, or anything like that. I'm not trying to invalidate anyone else's experience, but I just have to say that for myself, that never happened to me, and I'm the type of person people are saying it happens to.

    The way I see it is that everything that I've been given here is a gift. No one owes me anything. I am not entitled to knowledge about the lives of people I've never met, who are going through something I still can't really imagine from where I sit, even though I'm inching closer to it every day. I don't have a right to what they've learned from their private medical treatment either, though I am eternally grateful that they choose to share it.

    This shit hurts and people who haven't gone through it tend not to get it. Like my mom - she loves me more than life itself but she bingoes the shit out of me. She hasn't been here, so she just doesn't know. If people who've been going through this for years say they need a private space to hang with each other only, then I believe them and respect that, regardless of whether I can understand it from where I'm sitting now. If I was allowed to post in the SC, I'd probably say something dumb and triggering at some point, despite my best intentions, just because I haven't shared their experience yet.

    Maybe it feels different for long termers who haven't been active, or have been quietly active (reading but not posting). I could see how they feel excluded from something that could benefit from and that they feel they could contribute to. But ultimately we are all just anonymous lines of text on here. If someone hasn't been participating, how can anyone know that what they are saying about their experience is true? The internet is full of trolls. It makes sense to me, as a privacy safeguard in a space people are being super vulnerable, to require some long term engagement as "proof" before letting someone in to a space like that. Trolls are incredibly cruel to women online. Doxxing is a super real and scary thing. If people are revealing enough details of their personal lives to potentially be identified, then I am 100% in support of doing whatever is needed to keep those folks feeling safe. Although ultimately what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter what I think. Because when someone who has an experience that I don't share says it is a certain way and that they need something, I'm going to choose to default to believing them.

    So all that said, a big thank you to all the wonderful people on this sub who have been such a wealth of information and humor and support for me in this. Thank you for creating this, the best and safest and realest IF space I've found IRL or online. You guys are awesome. Do whatever you need to nourish and protect your own selves.

    [–]oh-no-variessick of this shit. 2 IVF, last FET coming......[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    It has been hard for me this morning to manage and respond to everything here. It's hard to hear people who feel so angry or upset about SC and I am trying to find the balance in making everyone feel heard, respected and cared for. I've been sad and frustrated because we've tried so hard to find a balance that meets the majority of people's needs in each unique sub.

    This comment has made a world of difference to me today. Thank you for your kindness and understanding and compassion. We are all just trying to make the best of a shitty situation.

    [–]PersonalGoose28, 2yrs ttc. IUI & IVF failed-bad egg quality. DE in August 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I'm with /u/fl0recere, I see both sides of the argument. For me, personally, this sub has been a godsend. I first posted when I was at my lowest at the recommendation of one of the SC members in real life who told me this sub would be the one to help me out. I received an amazing response and couldn't have been happier. I was still in a funk and unsure how to help others since I felt like I was just going to be depressing, so I lurked for awhile reading posts every few days and trying to learn the members. It wasn't until we had a game plan moving forward that I felt comfortable posting more because I felt more relatable to others who were "in a process".

    I use snark and bitchiness to get through all of this, and this is the only place where I can do that and not be judged for it. I've only been on the RE journey for 9 months now, but I've never felt attacked by it. I see the posts people are referring to that happening in, but that's usually people just popping in with a dumb question and just want us to tell them that everything is dandelions and butterflies and gets upset when they don't get that.

    I liked to look into the SC sub occasionally because I know some people in it and I like to see whats going on, but I also know it's very different from r/infertility because a lot of the members have "graduated" but still post. That's not necessarily what I want to read about, even though it's their current life, so I don't frequent it much and have nothing in common on that end to contribute with.

    I'll be sad I can't peek in anymore, but I love r/infertility and I will support every single person that hangs around. I don't have anyone in real life who I can talk about how good post procedure poops are or bitch about my unnecessary rage at someone else holding a baby. I would be burying myself in blankets and crying nightly (instead of every other night ha) without this sub to kind of unload in.

    That was a long rant. I don't know if I made any points, but that's my contribution to this whole fiasco.

    [–]closedblueyes32F | pcos.hypo.endo [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    <3

    I'm so glad that this sub has been for you what it was for me. Love!

    [–]fl0recere36F, cycle 18, unexplained, IUI#1 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Glad to have been able to give a tiny bit back of what I have been given here. Thanks for all you do.

    [–]qualmick28 | Unexplained, pre-interventions [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Original commenter said everything I would as well. /r/infertility is a great sub, and nobody needs to poo-poo the value of a private subreddit for those that have been around awhile, or the fact that you're trying to walk the balance between making it an extra safe/supportive place, and open to those who could really use a similar place someday. So, thanks.

    [–]MollyElla511Summer break - test results before IVF #3 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    ❤️

    [–]M_DuppertonAnovulatory --> IVF with 3 transfers, 2 losses (9w, 20w) 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I think people who have been dealing with infertility for a long time do benefit from having a space that is separate from people who are new to it, because the issues and emotions that both groups face are different. The people who have been through multiple cycles of IVF, are on to donor eggs, donor embryos, multiple losses, etc. have a sometimes have a hard time sympathizing with people who are just starting out. E.g., having been through five egg retrievals, two manual vacuum aspirations for my first IVF loss, and a D&E at 20 weeks for my second IVF loss, I'll admit that when I see people saying how proud they are of taking their very first injectable med, it just doesn't make sense to me. I don't see it as that big of a deal anymore. Likewise, the feelings that someone has after failing their 6th IVF (and maybe going deeply into debt to do it) are different than the feelings after failing the first round of clomid. That doesn't mean that the new people don't deserve support. It just means that people have different needs and are in different places in their journeys.

    However it does not seem that the Senior Class board has ever really been the space for people who have been dealing with infertility for longer than most. The 12 month posting requirement really has very little to do with length of infertility experience. In that sense, someone who's on their third IUI could qualify for membership while someone who has failed multiple rounds of IVF and is now on to third party interventions does not qualify. Or someone who's posted on reddit for infertility for five years, but only intermittently, does not qualify while a more consistent poster over one year does qualify. Plus, my impression is that the 12 month posting requirement is new, so that some current members have been on reddit for less than six months, but were grandfathered in as senior class members when the posting requirement was put into place. Also, some members of SC are actively pregnant or already have kids, so they're not actually currently dealing with infertility. But they are welcome on SC because of the social bonds that have formed, which is fine as long as it works for everyone there. But I do find it a little ridiculous, or even patronizing, that the sub is named "Senior Class" when it is not strictly a space for people who have been dealing with infertility for a long time.

    SC seems to be more of a social space for people who have had infertility experiences, some more extensive than others, and gotten to know each other over reddit. There's nothing wrong with that. I just think there should also be a space for people who have been in the trenches for a long time, regardless of how long they've been posting on reddit. Based on my own situation, I wouldn't currently join such a space, but I do think that others would benefit. Lots of people with long heartbreaking infertility journeys have posted on this thread, and currently there's no separate space for them. I'd also suggest that if this new board is created, it would be open to lurkers, since there is a lot that people who are new to infertility can learn from those who have more experience with it.

    [–]oh-no-variessick of this shit. 2 IVF, last FET coming......[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    The name being what it is came out of an organic and lengthy discussion and while some find it misleading, it can't be changed- a whole new sub would have to be created with a new name, which isn't practical.

    I completely understand and agree that people with a lot of experience are have different needs and questions. However, this main sub isn't r/infertilityforbeginners. It used to be able to accommodate everyone no matter where they were in their journey.

    I empathize with experienced users who are not part of the SC sub, however, as I have posted before, Reddit communities are what the users make of it. If a cohort of experienced people want to have discussions about where they are at, they need to make those posts and comment on the posts others make. The answer, as we have clearly seen with the fallout from the SC split isn't necessarily to have a new sub, because I think all these same issues will crop up again. You can't be all things to all people. However, I would support it if someone took that on. The answer is to take an active role in cultivating your (the user) experience, participating in the threads that are meaningful to you. Referring beginners to r/stilltrying if that is a more appropriate space for their question or post, and making space for yourself.

    People in different time zones felt they were missing out in the daily so they made an afternoon daily. Maybe the experienced users could try out their own daily thread to see if that helps.

    [–]M_DuppertonAnovulatory --> IVF with 3 transfers, 2 losses (9w, 20w) 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I totally get that the name can't be changed now, just sharing that in my opinion (and apparently many others in the thread agree), it's not a great name. I don't expect you to change it.

    I'm not in a position to start a new board for more experienced infertility posters who are actively still trying, as I had a successful transfer over the winter. However I do think that board would be beneficial. The main sub is great in a lot of ways, but SC split off because it's not ideal for more experienced infertility veterans. And many people have written on SC about how they can't even deal with the main board any more, because of the many posts by people who are just starting out. So I think it's a little odd to say that those posters who don't currently meet the membership requirements for SC should just make the most of the main board, when so many SC members couldn't do that themselves.

    I do think the idea of the daily thread for more experienced users could be helpful to some, and maybe someone will take that on. Personally it wouldn't be my thing though. I come here more for infertility support rather than general socialization with fellow infertiles. Not really looking to post about my life in general, but I know that many people do like that aspect of the boards.

    [–]foreverblessed1736, 2.5 yrs, 1 tube/ovulation issues/adhesions/endo, 2 losses 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    For anyone that has been on the sub for less than 6 months, this post probably does feel a little strange and off putting. Please know (and I'm not a senior class member) that there is a history and this has been a process. This is not just a clique of people who left because they are the cool kids or better than anyone else. The discussions there are not usually nitty gritty treatment or diagnosis details so it's probably not going to benefit someone in the newer stages too well.

    So this message is really just letting you all know the other sub exists and can be a resource for you if you are in need of it. If you don't know exactly what the sub is about or what is discussed there, I'd urge you to reach out to the mods.

    [–]oh-no-variessick of this shit. 2 IVF, last FET coming......[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Thank you for this comment, I appreciate it. You are correct, there was a process and the sub and it's membership guidelines were established after several long and comprehensive discussions in this sub (r/infertility). It meets the need of people who have a level of intimacy based on their time spent developing relationships here in the main sub and who are often nearing the end of their treatment journey. This means we don't actually talk about treatment details or tips/info often at all.

    This post is not meant to serve as a point of debate about what senior class is or whether it should exist and how it should be. That was decided some time ago by consensus of the community in r/infertility at that time. These decisions will always rub some people the wrong way. I can empathize with that. So I really appreciate your comment here. You are a wonderful, kind and thoughtful contributor and I am glad to share the r/infertility community with you.

    [–]Kimber84 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I was a frequent lurker of SC I must admit. I am a bit saddened by the private status but I completely understand as I appreciate a private sub I am currently active in. I know one of my posts on this main sub was cross posted elsewhere and criticized which made me feel exposed and made me stop posting as frequently. There are just some things you don't want to share with all of Reddit. Especially such personal and intimate struggles. I liked following up on a lot of you who made the move when SC was established. I don't feel it's appropriate for me to subscribe as a member or a lurker with where I am in my journey but I just wanted to wish all of you the best and I will really miss reading your updates and day to day stories. Best wishes senior class!

    [–]oh-no-variessick of this shit. 2 IVF, last FET coming......[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Thank you for your kind comment. I'm so sorry you experienced someone cross posting you like that. If you want lurker status in the future please let me know. Good luck going forward. ❤️

    [–]wilted_apostrophe28, right hydrosalpinx, finishing testing and maybe IVF soon? 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm happy to read that you will be allowing "lurkers" on the private sub! I've only been active on this sub for a short time, but have already learned so much from everyone on here (new and veteran alike) which is why I feel better prepared going into my first RE appointment tomorrow morning. The knowledge from experiences here is invaluable.

    [–]ifeelhome 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I get the idea to start a private club because you have been cycle buddies for a long time - the way you've written it though reads like a "we only want people just like us to continue in our new echo chamber". I can see how this turns many women off. I'm a guy who's been lurking for several years with infertility issues with my wife and i feel like in many ways this has turned into /r/drama. There are many many sensitive subs who have thousands and thousands of users. And I haven't seen as much bashing of people new to their respective subs as I've seen here at times.

    [–]kakavlI collect full Sharps containers [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Wow just caught up on all of this. My minds a blur but one thing is standing out to me: I see a lot of names I recognize and trust and respect who are not SC and to you I say, other non SC folks are still here and we need and support each other!!

    I must have joined this sub right around the split and was almost completely new to Reddit so I didn't even know terms like "lurking" or what daily threads were. I saw there SC and not and having been at this clusterfuck of a process more than 4 years now I asked to join. I was let in and asked not to post but commenting on someone else's post was ok which I interpreted as no new stand along posts (at least that's what I understood). Anyway, I stood back a little and then started commenting in response to others in the daily and then started commenting myself in the daily and that's when I think it started to feel weird for folks who didn't know me. When the rules were clarified, I just stepped back entirely.

    I was one of the folks who helped start the afternoon thread because I'm in California (maybe non American continent based folks can start a GMT daily?). That split helped me a lot because the two threads were much more manageable volume wise. Now I read the morning daily most days and lately have been posting on it too as I've completely slacked off work leading up to the current transfer, and almost always on the afternoon thread. The dailies is where I have developed relationships with you all and know when to stalk folks in the beta hell or results threads.

    Maybe what could help is a how we work in the side bar? Like: the goal here is that we support each other with advice, science, and emotional support, the dailies is where the action is, please do a stand alone post to introduce yourself when you're ready or do so in the regular intro thread (is that one monthly I think). Idk maybe that's all already there?

    Anyway my point is that the SC folks have built relationships with each other, we have our relationships here and as far as I know, it all works even when the trolls pop up.

    [–]daybeforetheday38, single, PCOS, shitty eggs, 2 MCs, IVF#5 July 2017 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Sounds like you've all made an excellent decision.

    [–]traipsingalong37F | MFI | 8 IVFs, 1 mc@12wks, FET July 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    There is no intent to exclude - the privacy is the issue because we share a lot of identifying info. It was actually my suggestion.

    When I first started on this main sub, it was a much smaller community. Then it had a major growth spurt. At the time of the senior class split, there were hundreds and hundreds of comments on the daily and it was losing the support group feeling due to size. So the senior class allowed us to stay in closer touch with each other in a more intimate setting, especially since many of us have been cycle buddies through 5 or 6 cycles, etc.

    The SC sub is mostly daily threads about personal lives. Myself and others make an effort to share over here for treatment-specific advice, etc that would benefit everybody in general. Im sorry that people think it's being cliquey as the intention is privacy, but I will say I'm glad to have a more private space to share personal details.

    [–]oh-no-variessick of this shit. 2 IVF, last FET coming......[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Exactly. r/infertility has grown a lot, and changed a lot. I've been here for some time. In the years I have been here, this sub went from about 80-100 people on a single day, or a large thread would have 150 comments, to 300+ on the daily, before mid-day, and large threads can be 500+ comments. More new and non-IF users seem to know about the sub, meaning we get new users who come in at their first medicated cycle and are gone a month later or people who are not infertile. That made it increasingly difficult for the cohort of people in a very different phase in their lives to feel that this space was meeting their needs as a support community. People nearing the end of treatment or further down the line needed a space to share in an intimate way with people they had come to know and trust. The discussion threads from before senior class was created can be found by searching this sub if people are curious about the process that happened.

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