全 103 件のコメント

[–]PM_me_anythjng 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (13子コメント)

Ignoring the morality of all of this there are multiple studies that say Universal Healthcare would actually save Americans money. American spends the most on healthcare in the world and we have nothing to show for it. We have thousands of people dying per year because they can't afford care and our care is lower quality then countries with a single payer.

[–]poop_face_monster1∆[S] -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Your article is interesting, but not very substantive. Do you know of any sources making this claim, with more data to back it up?

Based on my experiences (I lived in Europe for a bit), I was under the impression that our care is of higher quality. Do you have any sources for this?

One thing to think about on that front is that most medical advances are made in the US...I strongly suspect that one reason is the way our market works. Countries with a nationalized system tend to use simpler, cheaper, older techniques (which are past the patenting threshold) a LOT MORE than we do here.

If we end up going with a nationalized system, I think we'll have the same thing, here. The state will mandate cheaper solutions, which means the new, emerging stuff will be less profitable for business and R&D will slow down.

Not necessarily that this is enough to kill nationalized healthcare, it's just something to think about. Perhaps we can live with a somewhat slowed development, moving forward.

[–]Hotblack_Desiato_1∆ 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

less profitable for business and R&D will slow down.

Not necessarily. It probably would for huge corporations doing AAA, blockbuster stuff, but incentives are incentives, and you'd probably get a whole swarm of small-scale entrepreneurship dedicated to providing low-cost solutions to current problems. Economically and scientifically, I think it'd be a wash.

Also:

One thing to think about on that front is that most medical advances are made in the US.

I'm calling serious BS on this and really, really want to see some kind of support for it.

[–]poop_face_monster1∆[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, tracking medical breakthroughs is tricky. Here's some data on R&D dollars: link

Looks like the old case of not keeping up with the changing times. About a decade ago, the Us financed >50% of funding, but It's been dropping.

And yeah otherwise very solid arguments.

[–]SurprisedPotato1∆ [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Please note that "Healthcare is a right" and "Money should be spent on medical R&D" are actually quite different issues, only tangentially related.

[–]PM_me_anythjng 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Your article is interesting, but not very substantive. Do you know of any sources making this claim, with more data to back it up?

https://decisiondata.org/news/how-much-single-payer-uhc-would-cost-usa/ https://www.google.com/amp/scienceblogs.com/denialism/2012/02/14/more-evidence-that-universal-h/amp/ https://www.amsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/CaseForUHC.pdf

Based on my experiences (I lived in Europe for a bit), I was under the impression that our care is of higher quality. Do you have any sources for this?

You need sources to support your claim. There's thousands dying each year in America because of lack of care as well as millions of medical bankruptcies. That does not happen in countries with universal care.

One thing to think about on that front is that most medical advances are made in the US...I strongly suspect that one reason is the way our market works. Countries with a nationalized system tend to use simpler, cheaper, older techniques (which are past the patenting threshold) a LOT MORE than we do here.

You need to gives sources for that as well. But assuming it's true I'm not seeing how switching to a single payer system would slow down medical progress. Can you explain why you think it does?

If we end up going with a nationalized system, I think we'll have the same thing, here. The state will mandate cheaper solutions, which means the new, emerging stuff will be less profitable for business and R&D will slow down.

You still need to give evidence of that happening. European countries are still coming out with some great medical breakthroughs all of the time. And even if it DOES happen there's still an extremely high amount of casualties under our for profit system. Single payer would fix that.

Not necessarily that this is enough to kill nationalized healthcare, it's just something to think about. Perhaps we can live with a somewhat slowed development, moving forward.

It has been thought about. There are still a lot of countries that have universal healthcare along with a private system to keep everybody. The US could start with something similar to that.

[–]poop_face_monster1∆[S] -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'll dig through this more later. Don't quite have time at the minute. To your 2nd point, You're talking about people's go aren't getting care. I'm talking about ONLY the people who are (not including the ones who don't get care)...

[–]UncleMeat112∆ 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

But surely that is cheating. Imagine a dictatorship where exactly one person got absolutely incredible care but it was denied to others. Surely that is a bad system but if you ignore those without care it is amazing!

[–]poop_face_monster1∆[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You just need multiple metrics to evaluate the system.

Great quality of care but awful availability of care is not a very good system.

Also terrible quality of care but great availability is not very good...

[–]UncleMeat112∆ 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Okay. Then you need to seriously consider the argument that expanded coverage offered by a public system makes for a better system.

[–]PM_me_anythjng 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can't just ignore the massive amount of the country that can't afford care under the current system.

[–]as-well8∆ [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Based on my experiences (I lived in Europe for a bit), I was under the impression that our care is of higher quality. Do you have any sources for this?

The reason for this is that you're likely to only be thinking about "high effort, high pay-off" health care: Cancer treatment, emergency medicine, etc. This is only the tip of the medicine ice berg. I am assuming you're young and have not yet had the pleasure of "small effort, small pay-off" health care: Allergy medicine, post-birth care, backpain treatment, whatdoIknow.

Indeed, the US has some of the best health care providers for high effort (and costly), high payoff care, and that's a good thing! And while that should definitely stay (and can, in "socialized health care", just look at Switzerland for example), the ability to, say, separate Siamese twins is not what defines the quality of a health care system.

In fact, concentrating on high cost treatments is likely disadvantageous for that. The newest treatment is not always the most effective. If a new medicine costs five times more, and has a 1% higher success rate, is it worth it? Should it be employed to everyone, or just to patients where it might raise the success rate by more? Such high-effort, low payoff treatments are one of the drivers of health care cost while not really contributing that much to quality.

The problem is that in the US, health-care providers, by getting a cut from medicine sales, being able to offer more high-effort low-payoff helps their bottom line: It simply puts more work and money into a provider's bank account. Doctors and hospitals have an incentive to offer such treatments, especially when insurances set no limits on the treatment and when some patients pay out of pocket.

In a more tightly regulated system, this incentive is not as strong - if you're doctor's salary is fixed, there is no incentive for the doctor to choose high-effort low-payoff treatments over low-effort ones.

Which leads us to your second point:

Countries with a nationalized system tend to use simpler, cheaper, older techniques (which are past the patenting threshold) a LOT MORE than we do here.

That is not a vice, it is a virtue (depending on the circumstances). You could, theoretically, give everyone who goes to the doctor for the flu a blood test to check for other possible reasons for the symptoms. That's another 100$ spent on a flu case, an often very simple case where people just go to see a professional to be able to take sick time-off from work. A simpler, more effective option (for both the system and the patient) would be to screen for risk cases for other illnesses and give the vast majority simply the medicine they really need.

Which leads me to

If we end up going with a nationalized system, I think we'll have the same thing, here. The state will mandate cheaper solutions, which means the new, emerging stuff will be less profitable for business and R&D will slow down.

That is just plain wrong. Advances in medicine are driven by a) foundational research usually paid for by government funds at public universities, b) treatment tests paid for by either government grants or private manufacturers, and c) young medical professionals interested in developping new techniques.

A) and c) are independent of the health-care system. B) is somewhat dependent, but while in Europe, medicine prices are more tightly regulated, consider that the decision-making bodies take into account R&D costs. In the US, there is no such thing for people who are not on medicare or medicaid, and that means that hospitals just aks for fantasy prices when they can, making everything more expensive.

That and the free-rider problem: In the US, there are comparably little consequences if you just go to the ER and never pay the bill. Sure, could go to collections, but the hospitals give up on getting the money after a while, meaning that the other patients have to pay for that treatment, too. In a mandatory insurance or single payer system, you don't have this problem.

[–]Rubblepile20161∆ 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Based on my experiences (I lived in Europe for a bit), I was under the impression that our care is of higher quality. Do you have any sources for this?

Why would you think that? Europeans live longer than Americans. In fairness Americans do have more weight issues, but it's not like Europeans are that far behind. And this is largely countered by Europeans having higher smoking rates. Example Germany 1,480 cigarettes per person per year, the US 1083...

Not to mention who covers the care does not specifically correspond to the skill of the doctors. In the US, the health insurance companies are unnecessary middle men, who take an extra slice off the top. Moreover, they have a perverse incentive to deny coverage.

[–]wfaulk1∆ 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (20子コメント)

Education, infrastructure and military protection is also not a naturally occurring thing, yet you think it's okay to tax for those things. What makes them more necessary than healthcare?

[–]poop_face_monster1∆[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (19子コメント)

They are inherently necessary for our civilization to function at all.

We need people to be capable of performing functions (education). We need to have transportation and other infrastructure to have an economy. We need a military to prevent our country from invasion...

We don't need basic universal healthcare for our society to function (at all). You can make an argument that our society may function better with it, but there is no argument that it couldn't function at all, as would be the case with education, infrastructure and military.

Also, education is a (woefully) TINY proportion of the budget. Same with infrastructure. I also think we overspend quite a bit on military, but it's still a much smaller proportion than the social programs.

[–]capitancheap1∆ 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Many continental countries like Swissland don't have a military. How would US which is surrounded by two oceans have the inherit need to have the largest military in the world, but not healthcare?

[–]poop_face_monster1∆[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Switzerland?

Switzerland has a military.

I don't claim that we need the military we have now. I claim that we need to have SOME kind of a military. We likely wouldn't need such a large military if we didn't go around invading all the time (obviously).

[–]capitancheap1∆ 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Military personnel has health care coverage. If they didn't they would be less willing to get wounded. The public also needs healthcare. If they didn't they would need to save for a rainy day, which would be dead money not contributing to the economy

[–]poop_face_monster1∆[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I thought we were talking about whether the country has a military, not whether their military has health care???

People should still save for a rainy day, even if a MEDICAL disaster is off the table (there are other forms of disaster).

And most people don't stash cash under a mattress, so it still contributes to the economy.

[–]capitancheap1∆ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Plenty of of countries do not find it inheritly necessary to have an army. I'm sure you support healthcare for the US armed forces. The rest of Americans also need to have healthcare because savings (in the bank or under the mattress) is dead money and not contributing to society

[–]pizzacourier7∆ 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (5子コメント)

We don't need basic universal healthcare for our society to function (at all).

How do you figure this one? In my 26 years I've been to the doctor for a broken finger and an intestinal infection. That alone would be enough to drive me into debt if I didn't have insurance. Am I a straw man because I've had to go to the hospital a couple times? Don't most people have to seek medical treatment at some point their life?

[–]poop_face_monster1∆[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yes, most people need to seek medical treatment at some point. Many of those people can afford to have work done (like you). Many of those who can't have friends, family or community to help them out (ignoring governmental support, for now).

There is a portion of the society who cannot afford it and has nobody to help them out. Those people would not be able to get treatment and would experience a loss, but the civilization would still be able to function as a whole.

I realize my (at all) was ambiguous. What I really meant was for society to function at all, not that we don't need it AT ALL, which I realize is how it reads. Apologies.

[–]radialomens8∆ 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

There is a portion of the society who cannot afford it and has nobody to help them out.

And what do you think that portion is?

By age demographics, 73% (among those 65 and over) to 88% (among those 18-24) of Americans have less than $5,000 in their savings. Many treatments, especially necessary surgeries, require far more than $5,000. This is enough to bankrupt you, your parents, and your grandparents. This is why people are using kickstarter for emergency medical treatment.

It's a significant portion of Americans. It really does impact society's ability to function.

The result so far has been that people cannot afford preventative care and eventually their health gets so bad they can no longer work enough to sustain themselves. If preventative care were freely available, we'd have a much healthier workforce who can stay employed longer and contribute more to the tax pool, while living more rewarding lives and relying less on both their families and welfare programs.

In 2013 646,000 people had to file for bankruptcy related to medical bills. The hardest hit demographic was 35-44 year olds at 186K in that year. With over half a million Americans going bankrupt every year, medical expenses are a terrible drain on our economy. Beyond the human impact this has on families, the stress and heartbreak that people have to endure when entire households fall to bankruptcy because they had to do whatever they could to save themselves or their loved one, this makes medical expenses the leading cause of bankruptcy for Americans.

[–]poop_face_monster1∆[S] -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

1). This is assuming that nobody is paying for insurance. If you have insurance because you pay for it (or get it as part of a compensation package), then your out of pocket costs will not push you into bankruptcy.

2). If essentially nobody can afford it, as your numbers suggest, then how would you suggest that we provide it for free to everyone? Wouldn't this essentially bankrupt the nation?

[–]radialomens8∆ 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

1). This is assuming that nobody is paying for insurance. If you have insurance because you pay for it (or get it as part of a compensation package), then your out of pocket costs will not push you into bankruptcy.

It's not assuming that at all. Those statistics are from 2013; are you saying none of those people had insurance?

Not all insurance is entirely comprehensive, you know. They have both deductibles and limits to coverage.

2). If essentially nobody can afford it, as your numbers suggest, then how would you suggest that we provide it for free to everyone? Wouldn't this essentially bankrupt the nation?

Preventative care is far cheaper than emergency care. Giving people the money they need to get a biopsy done without worrying about rent means nipping health problems in the bud.

[–]awa6427∆ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

1). This is assuming that nobody is paying for insurance. If you have insurance because you pay for it (or get it as part of a compensation package), then your out of pocket costs will not push you into bankruptcy.

So you know how insurance... works, right?

I pay into a pool of money with a bunch of other people. When I or any of those other people experience a financial loss related to the subject of the insurance, the insurance company issues compensation.

There's two ways to make this more efficient. One is making the pool larger. Two is kicking likely/known risks out of the pool, or at least charging them extra. The latter is... kinda sociopathic when people's health is at stake, while the former points at the obvious conclusion "make it a government service funded by taxes, then."

2). If essentially nobody can afford it, as your numbers suggest, then how would you suggest that we provide it for free to everyone? Wouldn't this essentially bankrupt the nation?

Costs and billing are wildly distorted in the US. Insurance company negotiates discounted payment schedule with hospital, hospital increases billed charge for service, wash, rinse, repeat, until the hospital is billing hundreds of thousands of dollars for a surgery and the insurance company pays them five figures and considers the matter resolved.

The problem comes in when the insurance company denies the claim, or someone loses their insurance. The hospital doesn't change what they bill because of that (at least not without begging or the threat of declaring bankruptcy).

You know what the two most efficient, cost-effective insurance providers in the US are? Medicare and Medicaid. And you know why? It's because they're the only two large enough to go "Here's what we'll pay you for this service, take it or leave it, but you gotta take it or leave it for everything we cover" and have the hospitals opt to take it, and they're the only ones not spending undue amounts of resources looking for excuses to deny claims instead of paying for people to get treated.

[–]Sir_I_Exist 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

People who are too sick to work provide no benefit to the economy. This results in a number of categories of people: (A) People who are chronically sick who could work if they could afford Healthcare to address their condition; (B) People who are chronically sick that are out of the workforce permanently but who could still be contributing to the workforce if they could have afforded Healthcare to address their condition; (C) People who can work but whose disposable income is gobbled up by Healthcare costs to address their condition; and (D) people who are chronically ill, can't work, whose conditions prevent them from ever working again but Healthcare will give them a better quality of life (if they can afford it).

Offering free Healthcare to people in categories A, B, and C all help society function better; Healthcare for categories A and B would allow those people to work (thereby producing goods/services) and spend disposable income (consume and put money into the economy).

Offering health care to category C wouldn't allow them to start producing again, but would help them consume more.

Offering health care to people in category D wouldn't help them be productive again, but increasing their quality of life is the compassionate thing to do, and we are able to do it.

In the same way as funding education isn't NECESSARY for society (but makes society better), Healthcare would produce better outcomes for literally millions of people.

There are tangible benefits to free Healthcare, but I suppose that doesn't necessarily mean it is a RIGHT. That's a bit trickier...what are the necessary elements that makes something a "right," in your opinion?

[–]wfaulk1∆ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The government doesn't necessarily need to spend any money on infrastructure and education. If it didn't, free-market alternatives would certainly arise. In my opinion, those alternatives would probably suck, for a variety of reasons, but there is no doubt that someone would start them up. (I mean, for example, telecommunications are hugely important to modern society, and government doesn't directly spend money on that infrastructure. It spends money regulating the businesses that do provide that infrastructure, admittedly.)

[–]SpydeTarrix8∆ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Education could take the same route of current healthcare, with everyone having to pay for their own. According to your beliefs on healthcare, such a method would make education actually better while also not requiring as much expense on the taxpayer. If i don't have kids, why should I have to pay for public schools? Just because those parent's can't pay for their own children's way?

It's the same thing, but you are arbitrarily applying a different standard to it.

[–]YossarianWWII14∆ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They are inherently necessary for our civilization to function at all.

No they aren't. Plenty of societies in the past have flourished without any sort of rights as we understand them. Just look at the Greek palatial era as an early example. We enshrine rights because they improve the lot of society as a whole, not because they are the keystones of having any civilization at all.

[–]Hotblack_Desiato_1∆ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We don't need basic universal healthcare for our society to function (at all).

That's a nice assertion. Defend it.

[–]Super_Duper_Mann38∆ 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (6子コメント)

yet the popular view seems to be "screw the man who works for a living and contributes to the community, let him sacrifice himself for the sake of those who can't.

Wouldn't it be a better world of we all had to contribute?

Interesting word choice here. Is it your view that those who do not have adequate healthcare do not have it because they cannot be contributing members of society, or because they choose not to be or are not sufficiently compelled to be contributing members of society?

For the purposes of this thread, I'm assuming "contributing member of society" to mean being employed, paying taxes, and paying into a healthcare plan obtained through their employer/privately purchased. Please let me know if you mean something different by this phrase.

[–]poop_face_monster1∆[S] -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

What I mean by 'contribute' is to produce something of value to society, in order to exchange that value for other values, based on your desires and mutual trade.

As an example, consider somebody whose job it is to hold a 'godfather's pizza' sign on the front yard, to lure in customers.

Basically, this fella' could be replaced with a stick. He is paid a very low wage, because very little skill is required to perform this function and it contributes little to our civilization.

There are woefully many exceptions to this (unrelated views on corruption...), but in general, people who produce more value for our civilization earn higher salaries (doctors, engineers, scientists), as compared with people who produce little value for our civilization (call centers, restaurant staff, etc...).

My core belief here is that the market will decide your compensation, based on the skills you bring to the table and how much value your job is providing, and you can then exchange that compensation for health-care (or negotiate for it to be included in your compensation package).

I suppose given the options you have provided, I would say "choose not to be" contributing members of society. If you've decided not to seek an education to get ahead of the automation curve, you have likely found that it is becoming very difficult to compete with machines, for an example.

It's not like it's a deliberate choice, anyway....and the choices of your ancestors (most importantly parents) are extremely significant here, too...If your parents didn't value education, most likely you will not either. If your parents were drug addicts, there is a far higher probability that you will become one, as well.

That said, I really see children as an extension of their parents. I don't feel "lucky" to have come from a good family. I feel grateful that my parents (and their parents before them) made good decisions that set me up to also make good decisions. I am a product of their labor, not some random event.

[–]MerrieLee17∆ 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

My core belief here is that the market will decide your compensation, based on the skills you bring to the table and how much value your job is providing, and you can then exchange that compensation for health-care (or negotiate for it to be included in your compensation package).

You wrote "compensation" but it really seems like you mean "human value." The market and one's employment skills will determine that person's value and worth as a human being - not just their worth monetarily to an employer. Because we live in a society in which we need money to purchase food, shelter, health care, and everything else. Having more money enables someone to buy a better life - not just in luxuries but in basic necessities as well. Many believe that any person who puts in the hours and works full time deserves to be compensated at least enough to cover their basic necessities, which they are not right now.

[–]poop_face_monster1∆[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

That depends on what we define basic necessities as. The 'floor' is rising, and at the same time inanimate objects are able to perform more tasks, thus making it more difficult to perform work of value...

Anymore it's increasingly difficult to get by without the internet. Is a home computer and broadband internet included? What about a $40,000 new car? What about a $120,000 experimental medical procedure?

[–]MerrieLee17∆ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Basic necessities would include food, shelter, transportation, and healthcare, IMO. So a $40k new car isn't a basic necessity, but the ability to get to and from work and the supermarket is. Public transportation can fulfill that role. A $120k medical procedure is unfortunately very expensive but if it was needed, then yes, a person should be able to afford the healthcare they need simply because they're members of society, no matter how much or how little production value they bring to their employer..

[–]Super_Duper_Mann38∆ 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Okay - your response and your OP spiral into many other areas, so I'm going to try to keep my responses very to-the-point.

Firstly, I'd like to clarify the difference between the right of healthcare and the delivery mechanism of healthcare.

The concept of healthcare as a human right is not an American liberal view. It's an internationally-recognized human right, outlined in Article 25 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, established in 1948. If we are discussing the validity of the claim to that right, I believe this is the square we should start from, unless you have a better suggestion.

The delivery mechanism of healthcare (i.e. privatized insurance companies in America) is not relavent to the discussion of whether or not healthcare is a right, unless the delivery mechanism in some way intereferes with the provision of that right once established, or the provision of other established rights. It's a full step away from the discussion you appear to be trying to have, so arguments about the free market, etc. seem to be jumping the gun. Whether or not something is a right has nothing to do with how practical or profitable defending/protecting that right is.

So, I'd recommend that we examine the U.N.'s definition of healthcare as a right and its validity, which I think relates to your view of individuals "choosing not to contribute."

The UNDHR's first and third articles grant rights that I believe you agree with (I know you agree with the 3rd as you've self-supplied it already)

Article 1: All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 3: Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Assuming that we agree that all humans have these rights, it follows that humans require the rights provided in Article 25 in order to realize the rights in Articles 1 and 3:

Article 25: (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 25 references a number of counterexamples to your argument that those without healthcare choose not to have it, or make other decisions that lead to not having it. The disabled, the weak, the elderly, the infirm, the disenfranchised, and, of course, children, do not categorically have the control over their circumstances you seem to expect them to have. How can someone who cannot work due to an illness, and therefore not generate income or contribute taxes to pay for their illness, otherwise realize their right to life, liberty and security of person? How can they be said to be equal in dignity to their fellow man when their fellow man has the means to be physically well, and they do not?

Again, your OP is rather sprawling, so to focus the discussion these are the avenues of rebuttal I see here;

  • A refutation of the validity of Articles 1 and 3 of the UNDHR
  • A refutation of the causal link between Articles 1&3 and Article 25
  • A supplying of a doctrine of human rights you believe to be more compelling or valid than the UNDHR

Outside of these responses, I believe other lines of discussion would be tangential at best to the question of whether healthcare is a fundamental human right.

[–]Super_Duper_Mann38∆ [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's disappointing that I didn't get a response from you here. My comment gets at your actual CMV far more than the other answers you've responded to, which delve into tit-for-tat arguments over costs and taxes, none of which have to do with whether or not heathcare should be a right. Do you actually want your view changed, or were you soapboxing?

[–]Literally_Herodotus6∆ 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Okay, so first of all I think it's important to address this point you make at the end:

The core 'Lib' belief that I can't get my head 'round is this idea that "it's the right thing to do, but very difficult in practice." I think that the main reason that it's so difficult in practice is precisely because it's NOT the right thing to do..

It's actually not difficult in practice. Many other nations (in fact, as far as I know, every other developed nation in the world) has had some form of public healthcare in place for quite some time. The reason it's been so difficult to make it work in the United States is precisely because of how many people seem to hold a view something like yours.

My view (as an American) is that the foundational rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. These are rights of non-intervention. None may CLAIM your life. None shall violate your liberty. You shall be free to pursue your own happiness using your time and resources.

All rights, including these, are just ethical/legal constructs. It seems rather arbitrary to claim you have an absolute right to your own liberty and your own happiness but that no one has a right to receive assistance from the rest of society. Your argument really seems to fundamentally boil down to assuming that one's own personal right to not be interfered with (presumably you think taxation is a kind of interference) trumps any kind of obligation one might have toward one's fellow man. I see no reason to assume this as self-evidently true.

Healthcare is not a naturally occurring thing. It is the result of scientists, inventors, engineers, industrialists, doctors, nurses and countless others. A 'right' to healthcare is equivalent to a 'right' to the enslavement of such workers, or the right of partial enslavement of a larger group (say, a country of tax payers) to support such workers.

Society isn't a naturally occurring thing. The laws we use to govern our societies and which you presumably want to enshrine your right to liberty aren't naturally occurring things. You seem to be committing a pretty textbook appeal to nature fallacy while ignoring that this entire issue can only arise in the context of already being significantly removed from whatever the "natural state" of humans might be.

Wouldn't it be a better world of we all had to contribute? I'm all for taxation for things like education, infrastructure and (to some degree...) military.

Why do you draw the line here? There are plenty of people for whom education, infrastructure, and the military serve no purpose; should they be able to adopt a similar attitude to yours: ""screw the man who works for a living and contributes to the community, let him sacrifice himself for the sake of those who can't"? It's a fact of living in a modern liberal democracy that your taxes go to toward some things you don't have any immediate use for and some things that you are actually against. You're basically just pointing at things you subjectively value and going, "These are the things that my taxes should support."

I'm interested to know by what standard healthcare can be viewed as a human right.

By the same standard that education can be. In theory, an education for the vast majority of citizens is not necessary for a functioning society, and yet as a society we seem to have concluded that there is some benefit to having an overall educated populace. Similarly, many countries (not, it seems, the U.S., which is why we're even having this discussion - remember, your country is, among developed countries, something of an anomaly in this regard) think having an overall healthy populace is of benefit.

[–]sittinginabaralone2∆ 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My view (as an American) is that the foundational rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

This is ambiguous and not practical. The right to healthcare could fall under the right to life.

A 'right' to healthcare is equivalent to a 'right' to the enslavement of such workers, or the right of partial enslavement of a larger group (say, a country of tax payers) to support such workers.

That's a bit extreme. They still have the same autonomy they did before. They aren't being forced to work for free. Taxes already exist. If taxes are enslavement here, they are enslavement for anything.

I lose roughly 1/2 of my wages to taxes (including sales tax, property tax, etc...), so this means that for 3 months of every year, I am forced to work for the benefit of my neighbors, in a pseudo-enslaved manner.

Everyone would be doing this. Your neighbor would also be working for you.

yet the popular view seems to be "screw the man who works for a living and contributes to the community, let him sacrifice himself for the sake of those who can't.

It's more like "with great power comes great responsibility". It's not an insidious plot to fuck you over.

Wouldn't it be a better world of we all had to contribute?

You mean like taxes?

I'm interested to know by what standard healthcare can be viewed as a human right.

How are roads and military "human rights"?

[–]VertigoOne21∆ 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Do you regard as a right to a fair trial as made up? It is an extension of the right to liberty, yet by your argument it is enslaving people to make sure you get the provision of a service.

Right to fair trial is to liberty as right to healthcare is to life.

If you do not accept that fair trials and healthcare are rights, then liberty and life are not really rights. In order for something to be a right, you have to support that right.

[–]TacticalStrategy2∆ 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Healthcare is not a naturally occurring thing. It is the result of scientists, inventors, engineers, industrialists, doctors, nurses and countless others. A 'right' to healthcare is equivalent to a 'right' to the enslavement of such workers, or the right of partial enslavement of a larger group (say, a country of tax payers) to support such workers.

The libertarian trivialization of slavery never ceases to amaze me.

If you are accused of a crime and cannot afford a lawyer, you have the right to the services of a public defender provided by the state. Are public defenders slaves? People choose to do the job. If there aren't enough the state bar can demand lawyers do pro bono work, but this is still not slavery. It is a condition of the job. They can refuse and be disbarred.

Same deal with doctors. One could argue that already becoming a doctor comes with the condition that one must try to help the sick. This doesn't make the doctor a slave, rather, being a doctor is a status which comes with conditions. If you don't want to heal the sick, no one will stand over you with chains and a whip and force you to do so - you are just no longer fulfilling the conditions of your status. If you believe a social contract is equivalent to slavery I can't help you.

[–]CoyotePatronus13∆ 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

None may CLAIM your life.

Lack of healthcare or access to that healthcare may very well claim your life.

Healthcare is not a naturally occurring thing.

Most of our human society is not a naturally occurring thing. The clothes you wear, the stores you shop in, the computer you’re using right now- all not naturally occurring things. Liberty isn't even a naturally occurring thing.

I am forced to work for the benefit of my neighbors, in a pseudo-enslaved manner.

I can’t convince you that you should care about other people, and that it’s ridiculous that someone- ANYONE- has to go without food or medicine in a rich first world country, but you realize you also benefit from your taxes, don’t you? You also benefit from your neighbor being able to get healthcare?

I'm all for taxation for things like education, infrastructure and (to some degree...) military.

Why are you all for taxation for those things but not for healthcare? I’m curious.

Keep us safe, provide means and opportunities for us all to succeed and prosper.

Would having healthcare not keep us safe? Would it not provide us the means and opportunities to succeed and prosper?

I'm interested in discussing healthcare as a human right

Well, the right to happiness, firstly- do you think sick people or the families of people who died from a perfectly treatable disease or injury- have their right to happiness infringed?

What about liberty? Do you think someone who is sick and suffering, or whose family member is sick and suffering of something totally preventable or treatable, is able to fully exercise their liberty?

How about life? If I have a right to life but the doctor is telling me ‘you have diabetes. It’s totally treatable but it’s $7000 a month to do so. Oh, you can’t afford that out of pocket and can’t get health insurance because they consider it pre-existing? Well, take care, you’ll be dead in two years’ do I really have a right to life?

[–]Pinewood7417∆ 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (13子コメント)

I'm all for taxation for things like education, infrastructure and (to some degree...) military.

So you support the "partial enslavement" for rights like education, good infrastructure, police force, fire departments, etc. Why not health care or freedom from the impoverishment of those incapable of working or at least deemed by society to be less effective at working (social security)?

[–]Ardonpitt111∆ 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So this is a view I see a lot from people who aren't that familiar with the way the healthcare system works. The fact is you are already paying for these people, and paying for them in a far far more expensive way than you should have to. Rather than a taxation or anything of that sort you are paying in premiums, and higer insurance rates.

Basically we decided a long time ago as a nation that if you went to the doctor, but couldn't pay for it that the doctors would still treat you (personally I think that's a great thing). But as a consequence of that hospitals had to raise their prices (to try and break even). So in turn insurance raised theres and so on down the line. This got made even worse, by people only going into the emergency room for medical care. Mainly because if you need to go to the ER for treatment then its already WAY worse than if it could have been easily treated (in turn more expensive).

So simply as a practical system the best possible way to fix those problems would be a single payer system. It covers everyone so people get treated when the stuff is still small, it doesn't bankrupt people because prices are kept low by the coverage, and the insurance pool is far far larger. (As a personal note I don't think having a single payer system would preclude a private market on top of the single market, in fact it would probably increase under it.

As for the philosophy question, to me you summed it up pretty well in the foundational rights. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As a practicality in the modern environment, you have to have health care in some way or another to go for any of these things. Thats just a question of applying the practical needs for the philosophy.What you need to make it happen.

[–]awa6427∆ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This does not mean that by your right to happiness, your neighbors must obey your whims, or that, since you need food and shelter to maintain your life, your neighbors are expected to provide your sustenance. It simply means that you are free to do these things without interference from others.

Your neighbors don't have to, because that's not their job, unless they work for the Government, in which case that's literally their job.

The government has an obligation to maintain an environment where citizens have the ability to continue living and pursue happiness. Sometimes that means hiring a guy to stand around and make sure people aren't killing each other. Sometimes that means subsidizing food production to prevent famines, or maintaining a clean water distribution system. Sometimes that means helping to build homes or apartments.

I lose roughly 1/2 of my wages to taxes (including sales tax, property tax, etc...), so this means that for 3 months of every year, I am forced to work for the benefit of my neighbors, in a pseudo-enslaved manner.

It's easy to lose track of this in America's foundational mythology's many tax protests, but merely being asked to pay taxes is not a violation of your liberty. Being asked to pay taxes without political representation in the body that sets the tax rates is a violation of your liberty.

Although, to be fair, the Founding Fathers were a bunch of rich guys who really, really, REALLY hated paying taxes. They talked a big game about liberty while literally owning people, and they sabotaged their armed revolution by doing a piss-poor job of funding their army. They should maybe not be looked at as infallible and wise philosophers so often as they are.

I'm all for taxation for things like education, infrastructure and (to some degree...) military.

In theory, the state employs people as law enforcement officers or soldiers in order to protect citizens' right to life and liberty from infringement by other citizens, foreign governments and their agents, and nature.

What's so strange about paying doctors to protect citizens' right to life too? Teachers you're OK with, but doctors are a step too far?

[–]cupcakesarethedevil18∆ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Looking at the latest budgetary data, it seems that roughly 1/2 of the US Federal budget is for social security, healthcare and other similar-ish social programs. I lose roughly 1/2 of my wages to taxes (including sales tax, property tax, etc...), so this means that for 3 months of every year, I am forced to work for the benefit of my neighbors, in a pseudo-enslaved manner.

Source?

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/discretionary_spending_pie%252C_2015_enacted.png&imgrefurl=https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/&h=915&w=1003&tbnid=pZ5evWexGEOF0M:&tbnh=160&tbnw=175&usg=__KytYBCbAIwOdCzkL7QI6YkkzW-8=&vet=10ahUKEwj_uYyHvvLUAhUh34MKHc1oAB0Q9QEILDAA..i&docid=WKwLr8MRBaeUtM&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_uYyHvvLUAhUh34MKHc1oAB0Q9QEILDAA

This chart says 5.9% went to Medicare and health and 2.6% went to Social Security in 2015. That's nowhere close to half.

[–]poop_face_monster1∆[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's discretionary spending only. Look at the total budget.

see spending tab

Edit: added link

[–]VStarffin9∆ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The healthcare is a right argument is actually very simple, and can be explained in a way that I think you should be able to sympathize with, if not 100% agree with. Here's the analogy.

I am born into my parents house. A plot of land, surrounded on all sides by various neighbors. We all get along, no complaints - we have a contractual easement whereby I can cross over their land to access the main road and get to town, and I pay a small fee. But my luck turns down and I can no longer afford the fee. The neighbors decide they don't want to let me cross their land if I can't pay. They terminate the easemant.

I'm sort of screwed now. I can't leave my land without violating someone else's property rights. But I have a farm and all basic necessities on my own property, so I can still survive even without that access.

One day my appendix bursts. I call the hospital, and they send an ambulance. But uh oh - when they get to the highway offramp, my neighbor says "you can't cross - this is my land, no tresspassers". So the ambulance can't reach me. I decide to reach the ambulance instead, but the neighbor turns to me and says "you can't cross - this is my land, no tresspassers."

Well, hm. What happens now? Should I just die because my neighbor won't allow any violation of his property rights? I've asked libertarians and the like this question before, and the most common response I get is some form of either "you're allowed to violate his land because its a necessity and he's being unreasonable" or "there was an implied easement when the land was purchased they can't undo, so you can cross."

Well, the analogy is exactly the same in health care, if you think about it. In the analogy above, the question is whether I can violate someone's right to exclusive control of real property, against their will, to access healthcare that someone else is willing to give me. Universal health care is literally the same thing, except instead of violating a right to real property, it's violating a right to tangible property (e.g. cash - taxes).

It's not a hard thing to conceptualize.

[–]neofederalist18∆ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

In political philosophy, there are actually two definitions for rights. The first one is natural rights, which is basically what you've outlined here. Healthcare is not a natural right.

But the second definition is for civil rights, and that is a right that is conferred by the government. An example of a civil right is the right to an attorney. This actually shares lots of the characteristics of healthcare. If you can't afford an attorney, then the government will provide one for you. The government has decided that the need for everyone to have representation at court is important enough that it's going to compel some people to represent you.

So, strictly speaking, healthcare can be a civil right, if the government decides that it is so. I'll note that I disagree, for practical reasons, but I also disagree with the left in their mode of argument here, since it's backwards. Saying "healthcare is a right, therefore the government should provide it" reverses causation, because the only way healthcare actually is a right if the government decides to do that in the first place.

So healthcare can be a civil right, if we decide that it is one.

[–]poop_face_monster1∆[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

This is a great reply. You've encapsulated what many of the others have been saying somewhat snarkily, but in the proper type of format for me to address.

Of course the examples of infrastructure and military would become civil rights (based on your definitions, which I like). I was thinking of them not necessarily as a right, but as something we have to do, for the sake of advancing our civilization.

This definition largely makes the topic one of symantics, however. If a civic right is arbitrarily whatever we decide it, and healthcare is clearly NOT a 'natural right' then the question must turn to:

"Is it the right thing to do, to institute universal healthcare as a civil right?"

[–]MerrieLee17∆ 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Is it the right thing to do, to institute universal healthcare as a civil right?"

Well it costs less money over all, people get more for their money, people not being laid up and sick allows them to be more productive contributors to our shared economy, and it's morally right. So pragmatically, financially, and morally: yes.

[–]BreaksFull4∆ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Is it the right thing to do, to institute universal healthcare as a civil right?"

If this is the question that we're dealing with, I tend to look at it from a more pragmatic lens than a moral one. Regardless of whether you think it's the morally right thing for the government to compel people to pay for the healthcare of others, I think it's the most practical solution for the wellbeing of a society in this day and age.

If we decide to leave health services to the free market and let come what may, and a significant number of people are unable to afford reasonable coverage, then society will pay the price when they're unable to help themselves or their family when they suffer injury or sickness. These people will be angry about their suffering, and if they perceive the rest of us as being indifferent to that pain, they will make us feel it through one form or another, as you would expect from the increased social tension and conflict from a disenfranchised underclass. It could manifest as increased political pressure to legislate a socialized health care system, or as radicals violently taking out their anger.

It strikes me that a healthier society is a happier one, and one less prone to division and strife, which is objectively better for any society.

[–]hacksoncode252∆ 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Protecting someone from attacks by bacteria, viruses, and cancerous cells seems to me to be no different from protecting people from thieves.

Consider it a negative right (frequently violated) against illness. Just because we can't stop all of it doesn't mean that we shouldn't stop what we can.

And calling healthcare workers "enslaved" is an insult to actual slaves. No one is proposing to "own" doctors. They are proposing to pay them. Just like we pay police to protect you against more human threats.

[–]DHCKris82∆ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't have to pay a police officer to come to my house if I think there is an intruder, or a firefighter to save my daughter from flames engulfing my apartment building. It doesn't matter how "productive" I am, they'll do it anyway. These people are paid by taxes and serve the public in times of need for no out-of-pocket cost. "If you can't afford a lawyer, one will be provided for you." There are plenty of people who are paid by the government to serve the public without having to be "hired."

Even the lowliest, least productive members of society benefit from publicly-funded roads and highways.

Essentially, universal healthcare would make doctors and hospitals function similarly to all of these other tax-funded public service jobs that already exist.

Can you explain part of your view? If I get into a car accident and I'm jobless and can't afford insurance, I might literally be unable to afford to continue to live. Yet, if my house goes up in flames, a firefighter can save my life for free. I might not have insurance on my house, but that's property - why is my body treated like property in some situations but not others?

[–]exotics9∆ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I am in Canada where we have free health care for all.

I believe it is a basic human right. Nobody should be born into a world where they are burdened with such things as health care expenses. Especially since we (humans) made up money in the first place.

I will note that many countries have free health care (and some even have free education for doctors in training and so forth). In Canada the health care system is ultimately paid for via taxes. Certain health procedures are optional/cosmetic and are not free, but most basic health care needs are free. I note that prescriptions are not free, but health "CARE" is.

[–]Gladix36∆ [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I live in the middle of Europe. It's weird from my perspective and the perspective of many people here, to discuss this. It honestly feels like we are some 50+ years back in time. Discussing if we have money for it, and if it's even worth it.

It's on the par with discussing the validity of homosexuality in US. So, let me stop with these veiled insults and look on the merits of the public healthcare.

In my country, the axioms on which the moral and legal system for public healthcare is built, is this.

Some people are less fortunate than others when it comes to health. Some people need specialized help, to even lead a productive life. People are inherently unequal when it comes to overall health, and our focus as a society is on equalizing everyone on the level we consider healthy.

As such, everyone must be given access to healthcare based on individual need. Not on individual income, social status. But as one's innate right. This conclude's the philosophical argument.

The economical argument that healthcare is unsustainable is also flawed. Since our nations are clearly capable of sustaining it. The question is however whether the cost of socialised healthcare is worth it. First of all every single European country is on the list of top 40-ish countries in the world. So they are clearly capable of sustaining high living standards.

The Economical/moral argument that doctors are slaves is weird. Wouldn't that therefore mean police, and government officials are also slaves? Regardless in Europe doctors are usually amongt the highest paying jobs, despite it being in the public sector.

The argument that a person should not be burdened by the taxes, going for the health he/she will never use. Is enormously flawed. First, we are already doing that with taxes. I don't drive why should I pay for public roads? I don't watch TV, why should I pay for public channels, etc...

It's because taxes aren't just one thing. It's a complete packages. Even tho one person doesn't drive, he uses public transport. And even tho one person doesn't watch TV, he watches internet videos all the time. The net benefit for everyone is same. However with health care, your drawback of not funding it is not lack of luxury. It's significant health problems and eventual death to many.

Anecdotal experience. I grew up with severe health problems. Many allergies, Ashtma, crooked foot, scoliosis on top of bad back. And I was dealing with depression. I was going to doctors all of my childhood. And the result is a completely normal life. My family isn't wealthy. And I because I was comparing the price of treatment and medication I would need between Europe and US. The difference is staggering. There is no way my family could afford that.

It is deeply disturbing to me that people demand that I lover my standards for normal life, Because they weren't born with genetics defects and don't want to pay few extra bucks, so I don't have to choose between life in poverty or not dying. It goes against everything US pretends to be. A free society, where success is determined by merit. Not by luck of a draw.

[–]GreyceFayce 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hi, First time.. so apologies if formatting is off.

The basics: The definition of a human right is

a right that is believed to belong justifiably to every person.

Where as a moral would be

a person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do. the difference between a moral and a human right is all about perspective and prerogative.

Moral rights are what society deems is what is person, living being, or non-living thing deserves. And although there are financial and other factors that influence the matter of healthcare, it is not about their value as a person, or what they bring to the situation financially, it is the matter of a person being a living human being.

With what was previously stated:

My view (as an American) is that the foundational rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. These are rights of non-intervention. None may CLAIM your life. None shall violate your liberty. You shall be free to pursue your own happiness using your time and resources.

Where in the context of "None may CLAIM your life" would be in regards not to 'slavery' or ownership of life (which was done for many years within the united states) but that people have the preservation to live. As stated in the original rough draft of the declaration of independence.

We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness; ...

And with that former statement that would touch base on the 'value of a person' that has been mentioned multiple times in other comments. People have the equal right to live, just as they are allowed the equal right of liberty and justice. The reason for the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active labor act was created because of the right to live although many people who would go into an emergency room couldn't pay, and would be denied service because of those limitations. And the results of that ultimately caused more problems financially, and economically. Because people don't have healthcare it creates a vicious cycle.

I digress, ultimately the moral ground that people stand on is what determines the right of health care no matter the taxes of finances of the situation. We would morally save a hurt animal that would be a typical pet due to the emotional connection, nor would we steal from our neighbors, but due to the mentality of humanity and the negative implications of many people in society the humanity of people is ignored. People who do not have the means to provide for themselves sometimes do not intentionally get themselves into situations where they can not have healthcare, or they can not afford to pay for it, but because of the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness ultimately any and all humans should have the right to healthcare and the preservation of life.

[–]Baby_Fart_McGeezax4∆ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I see a lot of long winded responses, so I'm sorry if this had been said, but, regardless of how you feel, when a person shows up to the ER, that person is helped before he/she can be asked for insurance info, because of the Hippocratic Oath. EVERYONE who seeks it will be treated for life threatening conditions, period. It's a fact. So isn't it more practical to plan for that, at the very least?

[–]uselessrightfoot1∆ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You have to change your fundamental view of ownership of wealth.

As you put it right now, a person earns his wealth of his own accord, and then the government cruelly takes it.

I think we need to move away from this myth, this idea of taxation as theft or a necessary evil.

What actually happens is that wealth is created collectively. What you earn at your job or through your business is in large part the result of the society and system you are part of.

The government plays a big role in this. They regulate the market, the currency, they operate the infrastructure, the police and firefighters protect you.

And the societal norms, the culture, the knowledge of everyone around you also play a big role. The farmers, the educators, your neighbors, your friends, etc., everyone has played a part in you now earning your money.

So it's not that you suddenly appeared out of thin air, ready to make money, and the evil government is taking your money to give to others. You are the product of this society and it makes sense to give back and not only keep the system going but also improve it.

I recommend reading Albert Einstein's essay "Why Socialism?" which explains this a bit better than I can.

Your other issue is the definition of rights. There are no natural rights. We came up with those rights. Philosophers invented them based on their ideas of human nature and the role of government.

And don't put too much stock in the words of the founding fathers, who were slave owning colonists who wrote the constitution only for land owning white men. If you're a well off land owner who has slaves work for him, yeah you need the government off your back to enjoy your ill gotten wealth. But if you're anyone else this conception of negative rights isn't enough.

Finally, there's the issue of freedom. So freedom is a right but how free is someone if they are dead due to lack of healthcare? Or are too sick to live their life? Or are working 80 hrs a week to pay their insurance premiums or their medical debts?

Most poeple in the world right now, the working classes, they aren't really free to live their lives or pursue happiness. Most people are working very, very hard for very little return and have no time or money to take vacations or have hobbies or even in some cases spend quality time with their families.

Or even take the example of an employee who works in a toxic environment but can't quit their job because they will lose health insurance. Is that freedom?

So what we need is, as a society, to do as much as we can to give people a real ability to pursue happiness.

[–]SmarchHare1∆ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would say that the moral argument for healthcare, to put it in the most broad/general sense, is that it's hard to enjoy rights when you are dead, so society should do what it can (within reason) to keep you from dying. We have a justice system to keep people from killing you, and we have a healthcare system to keep cancer from killing you.

This does not mean that by your right to happiness, your neighbors must obey your whims, or that, since you need food and shelter to maintain your life, your neighbors are expected to provide your sustenance

I'd argue that in most advanced societies, we would agree that society/government is expected to provide sustenance for those who cannot provide it themselves. I can't really think of anywhere that would claim that a sick person, a disabled person, or a child should be left to starve to death. So in that sense, food is a positive (it should be provided) right, not just a negative (people shouldn't be allowed to take it from you) right.

Similarly, healthcare is something they contributes to your security of person and livelihood. Healthcare is different than food, however, because it is more complicated. I know how much I need to eat. Most people can grow their own food or work for enough money to feed themselves, so we don't need to think about feeding everyone. I don't know if I will need $100 of healthcare or $100,000 of healthcare next year.

I don't think that a person's chances of surviving something like cancer should be based on how much money he has in his bank account. You clearly disagree, and I don't think I'll change your mind on that. You're making a very capitalist argument I think, whereby anything that can be purchased with money (food, shelter, healthcare) should be allocated only based on money.

A question for you, though: do you think we have the right to personal security? i.e. you have the right to not be attacked, have your things taken, or even killed? I'm assuming you do. And I also assume you're ok with this being provided by society in the form of laws, police etc. But that's also something that can be bought. Why not let people pay for their own bodyguards, and if you can't afford one, too bad? Work harder.

Those who see healthcare as a right don't see it as you do - as giving someone a thing/service that they did not earn. They see it the same as other protections afforded by the state like justice, as protection against illness and death.

[–]Sayakai6∆ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Most of the post seems to revolve around the classification of rights vs. entitlements, which is... frankly, semantics. If you go with rights as "things you'd have if alone too", then yes, it's "just an entitlement".

But there's a talking point that I've seen quite a lot so far. It's the "slavery" point:

A 'right' to healthcare is equivalent to a 'right' to the enslavement of such workers, or the right of partial enslavement of a larger group (say, a country of tax payers) to support such workers.

And it's not. There's no enslavement. No one is forced to work in healthcare: Instead, the government creates jobs in healthcare, paid for with tax money, on the presumption that doing so is beneficial to society at large, and worth the expense. If there aren't enough people willing to work in healthcare, and healthcare is an entitlement, the government thus has to improve incentives for healthcare workers, until care is provided again, until it runs out of funds - and then admit that it failed to secure its peoples entitlements/rights, leading to a larger crisis (typically centered around bankruptcy). So, the workers are not enslaved. They can leave, and it's the government, not the doctors, that's in the shit at that point.

Neither are you enslaved (you're free to leave, this isn't north korea). Frankly, I consider all this "slavery" talk quite disrespectful considering that slavery is still actually an issue in the world. How your taxes are best used, and how much should be raised, is a matter of policy and democracy. Arguably, it's a good idea to help your neighbour get healthy again, so he can work again, and then help you get healthy once you're sick. Overall, lower sickness periods and lower reinfection rates are beneficial to the economy at large. How much? Beats me.

Keep us safe, provide means and opportunities for us all to succeed and prosper.

Part of this safety, part of the means to succeed, is being in good health. It's arguably one of the largest parts. An accident should neither ruin you, nor prevent you from future success. That's where healthcare for all comes into play.

[–]muyamable22∆ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity...

[–]pillbinge17∆ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Rights don't occur in nature at all. We get to determine what is and isn't a right. Something as basic as the right to free speech is applied differently in many places and scenarios and also doesn't occur in the wild where might may mean right.

Right now in the US education is a right. It's so much a right that if your own parents violate it they can be taken to court and you can be forced to show up to school. But education also doesn't occur in the wild. We're not conscripting teachers. In fact we lack many.

The percentage you're taxed doesn't really matter. It's what your life is like outside it that matters. Sweden and Switzerland have high qualities of life and different approaches to governance. The US could benefit from not just more taxation but fair taxation, which includes higher brackets.

You said of the military, education, and infrastructure: "They are inherently necessary for our civilization to function at all." So is healthcare. The ability to survive and function through a broken leg is very important. Not dying of disease at any age unexpectedly is very important. I feel it should be very obvious that securing these particular rights for a population that might suddenly die for no good reason is a little strange. Simply include healthcare and be done with it, like every other nation that found success with that model.

[–]SurprisedPotato1∆ [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You identify a concept of a "foundational right", and name three. You seem to argue that foundational rights are the only rights, and perhaps all other "rights" must derive from these.

You claim that foundational rights are "non-interventionist" rights. You argue, I take it, that healthcare is "interventionist", and therefore not foundational.

You also argue that healthcare is not "natural", but a product of technology, and therefore not foundational.

Now, some points against your argument:

  • You have not justified why "foundational" rights should consist only of the rights you identified. I could just as easily claim "healthcare is a foundational right". Why do you limit your list of foundational rights to those three?

  • You support education, which is not "natural", nor "non-interventionist". Why support education, but not healthcare?

  • You support infrastructure, which is also not "natural", not "non-interventionist". Why support infrastructure, but not healthcare?

  • You give half-hearted support to military spending, which is also not "natural" nor "non-interventionist". Why yada yada?

[–]retlaf 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Something I have always found strange is that people against public healthcare always refer to paying taxes towards healthcare as some kind of robbery, charity, or donation that they don't want to contribute to. Personally, I see it as paying for something for yourself, that you want. It's like buying home insurance. I wonder how many private healthcare advocates pay for home insurance? In some ways, it's really the same thing. You're being robbed so that if Jimmy burns his own house down, he can use your hard earned cash to pay for it. Of course, it's not exactly the same since home insurance is opt-in, but that's also the point: you opt in, don't you? Also, people that don't have home insurance generally can't afford a house. But people who can't afford healthcare unfortunately still have to live.

[–]TwentyFive_Shmeckles4∆ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's classically said that humans need 3 things to survive:

  • food

  • water

  • air

Many people would agree that everyone should have edible food, potable water, and breathable air. I think it is safe to say that most of society would consider these basic human rights.

a fourth requirement for survival is often added to the classical 3

  • shelter

Again, many people agree that some form of shelter is a basic human right.

I submit to you the idea that healthcare is just as important to survival as the others, and should also be considered a basic human right


Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness

I suspect that all of these rights may be derived from the right to life. By denying someone something that is necessary to survive, you are denying them life.

[–]poop_face_monster1∆[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

By your standards then, why aren't we all provided with free housing and free rations? Yes people need these things, but is it right you to be forced to provide my needs?

[–]TwentyFive_Shmeckles4∆ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We do give foodstamps to the poor, the government does provide homeless shelters, many areas have laws that force restaurants to provide free tap water to anyone who wants it, and we have emission control laws to keep air breathable.

Is it any more my responsibility to provide for your need for a lawyer?

[–]StoneFlint 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You view the basic rights as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Fair enough.

You've also premised that healthcare is "made-up" and "not natural" both of which certainly extend to the military. However, you then claim to support taxation for the military.

But the military does not grant on life. Nor does it grant one liberty. Nor the pursuit of happiness. The social-political structure of a country establishes those above "rights" (via for example the Declaration of Independance) and the military (one may argue) at best preserves and supports those rights.

And that's exactly what healthcare does: It preserves and supports the most basic, and fundamental right - Life. And without access to healthcare one is being denied the right to life.

[–]wfdfsfs [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

If someone without health insurance is dying (lets say they have a heart attack) should they be taken to a hospital? If they are taken to a hospital, say by someone who doesn't know about their lack of insurance, should they be treated? Or should the doctors capable of saving this person make the decision not to? If you think that the person should be treated then you think they have a right to health insurance. If they are treated everyone else who uses that hospital will pay for it indirectly (and inefficiently). No good answers but most would agree they don't want bystanders not to call 911, an ambulance to refuse the pickup, or the emergency room to refuse treatment

[–]maverikv4∆ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why are you all for taxation for things like infrastructure and education. Are those rights?

[–]SmellGestapo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Looking at the latest budgetary data, it seems that roughly 1/2 of the US Federal budget is for social security, healthcare and other similar-ish social programs. I lose roughly 1/2 of my wages to taxes (including sales tax, property tax, etc...), so this means that for 3 months of every year, I am forced to work for the benefit of my neighbors, in a pseudo-enslaved manner.

Your local sales and property taxes do not fund federal social programs. It's misleading to compare the two.

[–]poop_face_monster1∆[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Correct. My figures are approximate. It's within 10% methinks, so close enough for the sake of this debate.

(The federal budget is greater than 50% anyway for the social programs, so it's probably a wash)

[–]SmellGestapo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

My point was you can't claim "over half of my income goes to these social programs" when the social programs you are talking about are federal, and the income taxes you're talking about are local. It looks like Trump took down the White House tax receipt page, which is a shame because that was a quick and easy way to input your income and see a breakdown of exactly how much your federal taxes paid for each federal program.

Also, social security and Medicare and Medicaid don't come out of the federal budget. They're paid for with their own separate taxes, not the federal income tax, so I don't think it's fair to include them either. Those programs are mandatory, not discretionary. You have to look at the discretionary budget where 54% goes to military/national security expenses and 46% goes to everything else (housing, food, national parks, justice, education, arts, etc.).

[–]poop_face_monster1∆[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just depends on what sort of comparison you want to make.

They're labeled differently and come out on a different line-item, but these are also socialistic medical care taxes, which is what we're discussing here, so I think that is the most appropriate comparison to draw.

I am aware that the proportion of state and local taxes that are used for such social programs does not necessarily track with the federal budget.

I'll reiterate. I was not calculating an exact number out to 4 decimal places. I was drawing a ROUGH figure. I also low-balled the % of the federal budget, so I think that my figures are relatively accurate to pose for the purpose of conversation.

[–]SmellGestapo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not taking issue with your rounding, I'm saying my local sales tax funds local things, like road and transit construction.

My Medicare tax pays for Medicare. And my federal income tax pays for the federal food stamp program, food inspections, section 8 housing vouchers, and all kinds of other stuff. It doesn't make sense to say "I pay X amount in sales tax to fund Medicare."

[–]Cadfan1719∆ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Rights" don't "exist" in some philosophical ether for humans to investigate and discover. We call things a "right" to express that they're extremely important to us, so much so that we believe that society as a whole has an obligation to protect them.

"Healthcare is a right" is either an opinion statement, or a description of a prevailing norm or legal rule in a particular region.

It's no different from life, pursuit of happiness, whatever.

[–]timoth3y3∆ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Could you clarify what you are asking? Are you looking to CYV about whether the US should implement some kind of universal healthcare system or only about how access to healthcare could be considered a right?

[–]poop_face_monster1∆[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm looking come to some sort of understanding about why many people believe that healthcare is a basic human right. Deployment of such a policy is really not the focus of my question, but inevitably ties in a bit.

I've gotten quite a lot of feedback, with many good points, but haven't had time to sift through all of it in great detail yet...

[–]timoth3y3∆ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

OK, let's put aside the question of whether it is a good idea and focus on how healthcare can be considered a right.

A common misconception is that if something is a legal right, citizens have an unlimited claim to it. That is not the case. In the United States, we recognize primary education and police protection as legal rights that cannot be unfairly denied any citizen. However, that does not mean that a citizen can demand unlimited access to these resources. Society (and the courts if necessary) strike a reasonable balance between society's obligation to provide these services and the citizens' right to receive them.

Many nations have chosen to add healthcare to their list of rights.

[–]wfaulk1∆ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do/would you support revocation of laws that require emergency rooms to provide services regardless of the patient's ability to pay?