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'This is not OK': Swedish music festival Bravalla pulled after 27 sexual assaults. (theage.com.au)

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[–]51Bootwearer 495 ポイント496 ポイント  (64子コメント)

Many activists believe that nothing will truly change until festivals themselves become more diverse. They see putting more women and members of the LGBTQ community onstage and behind the scenes, and including them in the best-practices rules of law enforcement, as the best solution.

Whoever said that is a fucking retard.

[–]BlingoBlambo 168 ポイント169 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Who ever said that has an obvious agenda, which has little to do with diversity.
Its the best solution for them, as much as saying "I should be in charge of all the money" is when you walk into a bank.

[–]czech_your_republic [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Delusions know no bounds.

[–]aaronwright97 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's amazing that people can think like that

コメントをもっと表示する (22 返事)

    [–]lsiuefha 167 ポイント168 ポイント  (32子コメント)

    Hi Anglophones! I'm a Swede who saw this in r/sweden (in Swedish) this last week, and am here to retell the view of this of us from the nation in question. It sucks that girls have to worry in public spaces, and certain groups of recent immigration is overrepresented in this (as noted in these comments), but the festival isn't making money and that is the real reason it shuts down. One of the points in their reasons to shut down was sexual assault, but I doubt that is the main reason to shut down an unprofitable festival.

    That's what people commented in r/sweden! Have a good day all fellow netizens, love ya.

    [–]alextheangry 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    I'm actually chuckling at how extremely Swedish your comment is.

    [–]WankelsGoWAHHHHHHHHH 60 ポイント61 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    This is the second time I've seen this explanation with no sources except "locals say."

    [–]soffpotatisen [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Here is a link to "Swedish television" website, state-owned media. https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/ost/bravalla-stalls-in-2018

    Relevant part:

    Har gått med stor förlust Förra året gick Fkp Scorpio Nordic AB med 75 miljoner kronor i förlust.

    Men arrangörerna vill inte uppge om det ligger ekonomiska skäl bakom beslutet om nedläggning.

    – Vi har inga vidare kommentarer om det. Vi har gått ut med ett pressmeddelande, och det är det som gäller, säger Johanna Jonasson vid FKP Scorpios presstjänst när SVT Nyheter når henne.

    Hon meddelar också att årets festival inte kommer påverkas.

    Google translate: (it did a good enough job so Im using it)

    Has gone with great loss Last year, Fkp Scorpio Nordic AB lost a loss of SEK 75 million.

    However, the organizers do not want to state whether there are economic reasons behind the decision to close down.

    • We have no further comments about it. We have published a press release, and that's the case, "says Johanna Jonasson at FKP Scorpio's press office when SVT Nyheter reaches her.

    She also announces that this year's festival will not be affected.

    [–]BristolShambler 40 ポイント41 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    In all fairness though, they'd probably be finding it easier to make more money from tickets if it didn't have a reputation for sexual assault...

    [–]RochelleH [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    You assume we care more about it being closed down than we do the prevalence of sexual assaults.

    [–]Sulavajuusto [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    One could assume such a reputation of sexual assaults might harm the brand.

    [–]emkat [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    To be fair, it's hard to make money when people got raped at your festival.

    [–]JohnnyOnslaught [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Wait, a music festival being badly managed? I don't believe it. This must be because of Muslims.

    I believe you're probably right. I've been a raver for a long time. It doesn't take immigrants to turn a music festival into a shitshow. Mix a whole bunch of drunk/drugged teens and twenty-something's, give them tents and limited supervision, and there'll be a lot of incidents. Just the nature of the beast.

    [–]Black_RL -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (19子コメント)

    Thanks for inside info.

    But if the festival is loosing money why don't they just rise the price of tickets?

    [–]Maria-Stryker 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    That might work, but it also just might make people not willing to buy them

    [–]ArbeiterAccount 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    do you think that suddenly when the prices are higher more people come to buy tickets?

    [–]Black_RL [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I'm assuming the same people would buy them if the festival is so important, also, I've provided a simple example with 5% increase.

    Finally, this is just assumptions, like everyone else.

    [–]pcpcy -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (9子コメント)

    Demand & Supply. You should read about it.

    [–]Black_RL -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    I've read a lot of it, I have a degree.

    People are suggesting the festival is closing because of non profits and not because of sexual assault.

    In a simple thought exercise, and assuming the festival is sold out, let's say 20k tickets at 30$ (have no idea of the values), this generates 600k in revenue.

    Now let's imagine that the festival costs 615k to produce, they're loosing 15k.

    If they raise the prices 5%, 30 x 1.05 = 31.5$ they would make 630k in revenue, this time making a profit of 15k.

    So, what I'm saying, is that maybe they are telling the truth.

    [–]Rannasha 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Here you assume that an increase in ticket prices isn't matched with a decrease in ticket sales of at least equal magnitude. It's not nearly as simple as "higher prices = more money". If the price elasticity of ticket demand is larger than 1, then increasing ticket prices will result in a loss of total revenue.

    [–]TonyBolognaMalony [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    Increasing the ticket price by one dollar won't stop anyone from buying a ticket.

    [–]Black_RL [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Like you said, like everyone else I'm making assumptions.

    I used a very simple example with 5% increase in price, also, if it's true it has to be tested, how the market would react to it.

    コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

      [–]ZenBuddhaKnows [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      If they raise the prices 5%, 30 x 1.05 = 31.5$ they would make 630k in revenue

      You claim to have a degree but don't seem to understand supply and demand curves. I'm calling bullshit.

      コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

        [–]Noneerror 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Useless article. All the useful information in this article is contained in the headline.

        [–]fernguts 33 ポイント34 ポイント  (14子コメント)

        When this story was originally posted a couple of days ago, people pointed out that the festival was losing large amounts of money, and they're using the assaults as an excuse to cancel it.

        [–]Palmput 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (9子コメント)

        Why are they losing money? Any obvious ideas? Oh...

        [–]MissingFucks 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (8子コメント)

        Not selling enough tickets or drinks?

        [–]downvotethelogic [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

        I mean, I wouldn't buy a ticket or drink for my gf if it meant that she had a very real chance of being sexually assaulted.

        [–]blunt_person 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Maybe they're losing large amounts of money because the sexual assaults are driving people away from it.

        [–]b5sac 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        The organizers have the same problems with sexual assaults during their profitable festivals in Germany. None of those will stop being arranged.

        [–]Spekingur [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        Or maybe they are just not booking interesting enough music for the festival?

        [–]emkat [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        Maybe they're losing money because people have gotten raped at that event in the past?

        [–]ElMorono 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (8子コメント)

        A word to this sub, there's a certain Nazi mod here who spent his time deleting and banning half the comments from the last article about this. Can't have someone else's opinion heard, can we?

        [–]JohanEmil007 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        Say who it is then?

        [–]OffsetAngerEffector [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        Oh, there's quite a few of those. They basically make up reasons to ban you if they don't like what you're saying.

        Fortunately, Tor browser allows you to circumvent all Reddit bans, up to and including IP-based shadowbans.

        (Ain't I a stinker?)

        [–]autotldr 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 77%. (I'm a bot)

        Organisers of Sweden's biggest music festival Bravalla have cancelled next year's dates after a spate of sexual assaults at this year's event.

        Earlier this year, the Rainbow Serpent Festival in Victoria launched Australia's first festival "Safe space", staffed by counsellors trained by the Victorian Centres Against Sexual Assault, after four reported sexual assaults at the event the year prior.

        Laneway Festival also launched a national safety hotline, in conjunction with Melbourne band Camp Cope's #ItTakesOne campaign, encouraging festivalgoers to report any instances of sexual assault.

        Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: festival#1 Assault#2 year#3 report#4 event#5

        [–]jimijiim 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (78子コメント)

        IF you really want "safe space" for females you'll segregate male and females. Some people see that as "progress", ironically agreeing with the most misogynistic and conservative cultures out there.

        [–]Fingusthecat 58 ポイント59 ポイント  (10子コメント)

        Or you come down hard on men who assault women. Most men are not animals. The few who are can be controlled by the many who are not. There is no reason to retreat into segregation. History shows that separate but equal is never equal. Better to establish a hard and fast standard and punish severely those who transgress it.

        Shitty men assault women because they know they'll get away with it. The woman will be too shocked and scared to do anything and too many guys around her will just stand there. If doing something like grabbing a woman's ass got you shellacked with verbal abuse and public shaming it would stop in short order. Throw in six months of picking up trash by the side of the highway and I think you'd see it come to an end right quick.

        [–]EpicusMaximus -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (9子コメント)

        Part of the problem is also the huge double standard of groping in public (at least in America).

        Here's a good example of what I'm talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uccExOPMrI

        Already a downvote so maybe I have to explain this. When you try to convince people that there's a huge sexual assault problem to people, they point to stuff like this which does happen to tons of guys and they stop listening or taking it seriously. When you talk about sexual assault, you have to talk about it regardless of gender.

        [–]flupo42 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        video is cringy level of staged. would advise you not use this in support of any arguments.

        [–]PhilosophizingCowboy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        Doesn't make the poster wrong though.

        Or do you not know how to argue?

        [–]_om_ 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Yeah, you aren't wrong on your point, but Joey Salads is an asshat. The gender shouldn't matter.

        [–]Schmidtzy 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Did you seriously just use Joey Salads as an unironic source? Dude you just tanked your own argument here.

        [–]BestUdyrBR 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Holy fuck please don't use a social experiment video by Joey Salads to back up your narrative lmao

        [–]Fingusthecat -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        When you talk about sexual assault, you have to talk about it regardless of gender.

        Agreed fully. I think a lot of the time "pussy pass" is code for misogynistic attitudes but when it comes to sexual assault it's a very real thing. See also female teachers raping 14 year olds. There's an argument to be made that there should be differences due to the differing social attitudes which affect differing levels of harm, but I think those arguments are naive and miss the point that equality under the law cannot mean the same action has different consequences for different sexes. Assault is assault even if it's played off as flirting and even if it's received as such - doesn't matter. Without permission or some preexisting relationship that implies (or preferably explicitly allows) access to a person's personal space people need to just stay the hell out of it.

        Permission can be as simple as a nod or a wink, doesn't need to impede the natural flow of courtship and flirtation. But permission is needed in some form or another or you're stepping over a line. How severe the transgression is depends on a lot of factors, and sometimes I think it's only worth a bad look and a sharp word or two, but getting permission is basic courtesy.

        [–]MrCarcosa 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (64子コメント)

        Or you could hammer home the message that it isn't OK to sexually touch people without their consent.

        [–]Sayakai 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Everyone already got that. The people who still do it just don't care, and no matter how often you try telling them, they never will. You can't compensate like that for a lack of empathy.

        You can either accept that assholes will be assholes, enforce the law as well as you can, and move on - or segregate and wall off everything.

        [–]MrCarcosa 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        That's not true, and I know it. In my profession I meet a lot of men, young and old, whose understanding of consent is woefully poor. They aren't evil, they're just profoundly ignorant.

        Edit: Nice work, downvoting someone whose own experience counters your point. You can drop the pretence of being rational now, you clearly don't want to solve problems, just circlejerk to them.

        [–]smthhappy 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        We should also teach muslims not to do terror attacks then?

        [–]MrCarcosa -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Muslim communities already are. They have those kind of initiatives running already. You'd know if you actually looked.

        We should follow their example and do the same for all these right-wing white terrorist shooters, the Brevik's and Roof's and Bissonnette's.

        [–]Gonso 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (7子コメント)

        Separatism is the new thing in Sweden. The feminists (F!) and BLM (I shit you not) are advocating separatism on state television, while being praised by the mainstream

        Article: https://www.svt.se/kultur/musik/hon-vill-starta-mansfri-rockfestival

        Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw1r0UyGjFs

        [–]Yasea 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (5子コメント)

        And that can go from "Women should be protected from those beasts!" to "Women can't leave their house without somebody protecting them." to just "Women can't leave their house without male relative." Mission accomplished.

        [–]Mechashevet 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I'm pretty sure that women can't leave the house alone in places like Saudi Arabia so that they don't tempt men into raping them, the male relative escort is there to protect them. So there really is no third jump, it just goes ftom "Women should be protected from those beasts!" to "Women shouldn't leave the house without a male escort to go with them to protect them" and we already have Saudi Arabia in the western world.

        [–]SWIMsfriend [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

        not if you just kill those beasts. You never saw Birth of a Nation?

        the klan was created to stop men from harassing women

        [–]Yasea [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        I expect that it's going to be open season on foreigners soon enough. Foreign looking men are 'thought a lesson' and the police was 'just too late to see what happened'. That's how things were often handled in the past when the legal ways didn't work out.

        [–]czech_your_republic [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        Stuff like this seem to be the standard "solution" in certain countries. Or like the "keep an arm's length distance" in Cologne.

        [–]czech_your_republic [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        Stuff like this seem to be the standard "solution" now in certain countries. Or things like "keep an arm's length distance" after Cologne.

        [–]MrCarcosa 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Not sure why you're telling me, I think it's a terrible idea.

        [–]GuadalupeHernandez 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (23子コメント)

        The idea that the people doing the sexual harassment (muslim migrants) aren't already aware of this, or would give even one iota of a shit that it was wrong if you told them it was, is naive.

        [–]frillytotes [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        the people doing the sexual harassment (muslim migrants)

        It's not Muslim migrants doing this. You don't get Syrian refugees paying $385 to watch Linkin Park and Ellie Goulding.

        コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

          [–]smthhappy 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (17子コメント)

          Or maybe the suspects are not from your home so it doesn't matter?

          The police have been examining seven suspects, six of them foreigners, whose ages range from under 18 to 35, Inspector Nystrom said; no arrests have been made.

          [–]MrCarcosa 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (16子コメント)

          Of course it matters. You hold everyone to the same standard, no matter where they're from.

          Moreover, there's no indication that those 6 foreign suspects are responsible for all 27 incidents. They might well be responsible for only 6 of them. You don't know.

          [–]smthhappy 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (15子コメント)

          6/7 is pretty showing

          [–]MrCarcosa -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (14子コメント)

          It shows nothing. Are these 7 people being questioned about all 27 assaults? We don't know. What were the circumstances of these 7 people being picked up? We don't know.

          You're making a judgement with only a fraction of the necessary information.

          [–]smthhappy 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (13子コメント)

          Lets say that they re responsible about 6 assaults that's still more than 20% Foreign borns are around 15% of Sweden population it shows that they are still overrepresented

          [–]MrCarcosa 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (11子コメント)

          That may well be, but you'd still need more case data to make the claim statistically sound. You'd also have the 80% of home-grown sexual offenders to deal with too.

          [–]GuadalupeHernandez 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (8子コメント)

          Did you know that the Swedish govt used to keep statistics on the foreign born status of rapists, until the data showed around 2005 that the vast majority of rapists in Sweden were foreign born, at which point the govt stopped keeping that data?

          [–]i_like_polls 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Tried to google this but didn't find a source on it.

          [–]MrCarcosa 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

          What's your point, and where's your source?

          コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

            [–]zetruz -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I have a feeling this is probably true, that foreigners (and even second-generation immigrants) are overrepresented. It wouldn't surprise me at all, and it's an issue that needs to be dealt with.

            However, what I find more fascinating is that women are much more likely to acknowledge the fact that virtually all suspects are male. There is a discrepancy in response, where women's most likely observation (my guesstimate) is "they're all male", while men's most likely observation is "immigrants are overrepresented" (even if they're a small minority). I get that the overrepresentation of immigrants is an issue, but practically all perpetrators being male is the issue.

            [–]SWIMsfriend [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

            White people already know this, but they won't dare say it to immigrants, so it doesn't matter.

            I mean look at that video of a woman walking around new york for 10 hours being catcalled.

            NYC is 50% white, but somehow, it was always men of color trying to feel her up and make her uncomfortable.

            [–]MrCarcosa [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

            To be fair, that video got a lot of criticism for the woman walking through neighbourhoods that were pre-dominantly non-white. Racial demographics in NYC aren't split equally across the city.

            In my personal experience, being white doesn't mean you aren't likely to be a sex criminal, especially when it comes to young girls/older men (operation Yewtree etc.) or young me in college frats. I'd rather we covered all our bases when it comes to stopping crime.

            [–]kaedanir 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            LOL let's teach men not to rape guys! While we're at it let's teach certain minorities not to steal. Amiright?

            [–]jimflaigle -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

            That message is as hammered as it can get. You mix in drugs and alcohol, people start to get fuzzy on the rules and have poor perceptions of when someone is signaling interest.

            [–]MrCarcosa 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

            Drugs and alcohol exacerbate the problem, surely. Thing is, being drunk is no longer a mitigating factor if you get convicted of an offence. It's the opposite, an aggravating factor.

            I think we could stand to talk more about responsible substance use and - at least when meeting people for the first time - not getting too handsy.

            [–]jimflaigle 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

            My point is, we can talk about anything you want sober at length. Once altered, people aren't working to that same program. Chances are many of the people being handsy would probably agree with you sober. And chances are that even altered they could have it explained to them to back off. You're better off treating them as large, unruly children and taking anyone that gets overly aggressive to a time out area to come down before they get grabby than running another PSA.

            [–]MrCarcosa 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            I get you.

            What I'd suggest is that people who have bad experiences when using substances, use those substances less, or not at all. If you're a violent drunk, stop drinking.

            If you're just come to a drinking age, don't rush in and get slaughtered on the first night. You wouldn't drop enough acid to make Terrence McKenna wince the first time round, and you shouldn't do the same with alcohol. You should find your limits, and live within them. Sure, it's not as fun, but going to jail because you raped someone when pissed, or glassed someone that tried to intervene, is a lot less fun.

            [–]jimflaigle 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Sure, but again you're trying to use logic on addicts. It usually doesn't work, and at a large event you're up against the law of large numbers. My suggestion would be to treat event security more like baby sitting than a police action. Intervene gently early on rather than waiting for things to escalate to the point where violence or prosecution come into play. And to do that you're going to have to accept that people are going to be in altered states, sometimes illegally, and to be effective you have to not crack down on them for that.

            [–]MrCarcosa 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I think there's room for both our ideas. Campaigns on the outside highlighting the consequences when people are sober, and bouncers ready to carry out risk-customers when they aren't.

            I've met a few bouncers in my time, and they do sometimes have staff on the floor looking out for this kind of thing. It isn't always easy to spot, but it's good work.

            [–]Aliktren -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Or just teach male members of society to not be colossal dickwads

            [–]Double_A_92 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Doesn't work because it only needs a few people to ruin it...

            [–]puddlenaut 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Maybe hire security instead of blaming "men."

            The agenda is very strong here.

            [–]Maxaalling 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            I would like to point out, that this festival had a 75 million SEK deficit last year.

            I think that the rape cases, although of course are far out of control, are used as spin to justify the shut down of the festival.

            [–]tomz17 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Well, I wouldn't go to a rape festival either.... Wonder why they are losing money?

            [–]emkat [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            You'd be surprised how much demand drops when people are worried about getting raped.

            [–]Typhera [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Curious how this has several posts and in every single one theres swedish people saying its about money and not the increasing sexual crime rates.

            What if its both? what if actually is due to sexual crime rates? whats with all the defensiveness and constantly posting the same thing as if afraid that somehow accepting this will cause the world to collapse?

            [–]fotho [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

            Were these committed by immigrants?

            [–]bitbot [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Next time double the bracelets, one for each arm! That will surely stop it!

            [–]Klother [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Swedish men really need to stop being so misogynistic.

            [–]NatesTag [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            I'm sure the perpetrators were educated, native Swedes.

            [–]frillytotes [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            It's funny there are commenters ITT blaming the assaults on recent Muslim migrants, as if Syrian refugees are the ones paying $385 to watch Ellie Goulding and Håkan Hellström.

            [–]saddat -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            if you make those festivals Swedish-only everyone will understand

            コメントをもっと表示する (14 返事)