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DISCUSSIONThe conflating of trans phobia and racism when it comes to dating (self.GenderCritical)

ProlixinMen were a mistake が 投稿

These two things are obviously not equal because sex is not a preference like race, but also people who use this argument are taking something valid (not being attracted to a certain race) and conflating it with nonsense. Let me expand on the point I'm trying to make: in America, there definitely is a white centric standard of beauty, so when someone says they are "just not attracted to black people", well, I find that a little hard to believe, but with the media bombarding us with messages that European features are the ideal, it's not surprising. So I think that is something that deserves critical thought and examination. Unlike one's, you know, sexuality. Obviously I'm not saying people can't have preferences for a certain race, I just think it's important to realize where that preference comes from.

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[–]Bluetinfoilhat 40 ポイント41 ポイント  (6子コメント)

It comes down to them thinking black women are men to an extent. Deeply racist and annoying. Also it is annoying that they always ask if it is racist for a white person to not want to date a black person, but it never occurs to them that many black people don't care and might even find white people unattractive.

[–]vauquelineMother Nature is a TERF 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (2子コメント)

It comes down to them thinking black women are men to an extent.

You wouldn't believe the number of times I've seen them argue against sex-segregated bathrooms by equating sex segregation to racial segregation, without a trace of self-consciousness.

[–]introveritasReality is transphobic 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's what tipped me past private Peak Trans into publicly outing myself as a gender-critical radfem.

[–]griffxx 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is used in so many arguments, concerning the bathroom bills. It's racist just using this analogy. One concerned blacks being considered sub human vs women's real concern about male violence, while they're in vulnerable positions. They also used this kind of analogy to gaslight white lesbians.

[–]ProlixinMen were a mistake[S] 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's because they can't fathom that anyone would find white people undesirable, which is some white supremacist bullshit.

[–]dixiechick547 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fallon Fox actually said that it should be okay for him to fight women since black women fight in MMA. And, Tamikka Brents the woman he hospitalized is a black woman a lesbian. This is why I cannot understand black women who support this fuckery.

[–]nataliebarney 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So true! I've had black women who didn't want to date me and prefer to date other black lesbians. It never occurred to me to be affronted; it's not about me, it's about them! More power to them.

[–]ILoveMerlot91BUT SHIRAZ IS STILL VALID 32 ポイント33 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I hate, hate, hate the way trans activists use race to back them up.

How dare they refer to us 'TERFs' as white nationalists. If they really cared about black people they wouldn't dream of comparing believing in biological sex to the actual lynching of black people.

They constantly go on about how gender is a colonialist concept. Do they know what colonialism is? Why do I never hear them talking about the damage that colonialism had on Africa and Asia? When Trump reduced aid to Africa I didn't here a peep, but when schools were told they didn't have to let boys change with girls, then the screaming starts.

(Also, morons, do yo really think non-white people are that dumb, they couldn't figure out that there is a difference between a penis and a vagina, and how babies are made.)

The way they talk about FGM, 'I was circumcised as a baby so that's technically FGM so we have to talk about my dick now' is fucking deplorable.

When it comes to talking about racial dating preferences why are they talking about it? What happened to staying in your lane? And how come race can be used in the arguments for transgenderism but not against? If anyone here has credible arguments as to why Rachel Dolezal is different from Bruce Jenner, please let me know, because I've really tried to understand but the arguments just make my head spin.

Sorry, this is a bit of a rant but the way these people talk about race and equate it to their sexual fetish makes me sick.

[–]ProlixinMen were a mistake[S] 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It is sickening and reveals their true, racist colors. How can they compare having a dick to being a "different kind of woman", like black women? You wouldn't say a black woman isn't a real woman, cheque mate, TERFS! Um, no, I would not say that because race doesn't change someone's sex and is not comparable to being a male. Seriously, what the fuck? Smh

[–]qwertypoiuytre 62 ポイント63 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Honestly the whole "are my dating preferences whatever?" has got to go. What could be more irrelevant. Liberating the working class from economic oppression has nothing to do with women fucking poor men. Liberating black people has nothing to do with women fucking black men. Anyone trying to shoehorn in "you should think harder about fucking this person" into social justice conversation is a shameless creep and a disgrace to whatever movement they are exploiting for their rapey purposes. One thing that really disgusts me is people using criticism of one form of harm to justify their own desire to do some other form of harm (in this case perpetuate rape culture).

Yeah, if you're a white woman in a white supremacist culture and you don't find yourself sexually attracted to black men, you can wonder if that's part of your white supremacist socialization (you can't really know for sure, since there's no control, in a perfect world individual people would have random preferences, though when they line up by class that is probably a clue they aren't random), but anyway regardless of attraction or lack of attraction, you can certainly try to fight white supremacist socialization in all its forms, but under. no. circumstances. do any women already living under rape culture need to "try harder" to want to fuck anyone. I'm sorry but women's vaginas are not the front line of the social justice battle.

[–]femuhnist 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But didn't you know that women only have worth if people find us fuckable? And the only "power" that we can give to men is our willingness to fuck them? Sure makes rape, I mean sex, a lot easier if we acquiesce!

[–]ProlixinMen were a mistake[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I was talking about black women, actually. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I was talking about all women. It's bogus all around.

[–]ProlixinMen were a mistake[S] 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I mean the beauty standards negatively affect black women, since there are studies that black women are considered the least attractive women and least dateable, or whatever nonsense. I think women of all races are beautiful.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Oh okay, do you mean there should be more social pressure then to overcome lack of attraction to certain women?

I still just don't see sex/dating/attraction as being of any significance in genuine social justice context. Even if it hurts individuals, and even if in this case it would be primarily het men who be the recipient of pressure to examine their preferences (which isn't going to happen under patriarchy).

I agree, even if I know I've been raised like everyone else with white supremacist beauty standards, I do think women everywhere are beautiful (and ugly, and everything in between, and that's fine).

But I don't think those standards arise from any legitimacy. They are created and sustained because they serve a purpose, which is the material economic exploitation based on race. So to me to focus on shifting the standards is a liberal losing strategy, rather than to focus on the reason they were created.

(sorry if I am still misunderstanding your post, which I might be :)

[–]ProlixinMen were a mistake[S] 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, first of all, I think it would be good to dismantle racist concepts of beauty. It really gets me down when I see black women say they feel undesirable because of their race, etc. I read this post on TwoX by a 13 year old girl and it about broke my heart. :/

[–]qwertypoiuytre 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh don't get me wrong, I wish those concepts didn't exist either. Female socialization that promotes feelings of ugliness (and subsequently worthlessness, since our fuckability is our worth) is already terrible and I can't imagine (literally, as a white woman) on a personal level how that compounds with race.

It's just that no matter how terrible I view it as, sadly I just don't think it is possible to change it - without what I see as the root motive for it being done away with first.

[–]not-weird 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

HOW does that make anything better?

[–]JLK1122Identifying as hot pocket. Transiting to a pizza roll. 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Amen!

[–]IceIceKittyLion pronouns Leo/leor/leos 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I've never seen any other marginalized group beg or demand their "oppressors" to fuck them. It's just not comparable and I have no idea why anyone is falling for it. I was 100% on board with trans until I encountered this line of thinking. How has the same not happened to everyone else?

A guy on Reddit told me once that all preferences at bigoted in some way and I should unlearn them and be open to sex with literally anyone. Do they really believe that sex will undo bigotry? As if fetishizing (and dehumanizing) groups of people is the most progressive thing you can do! As if rape of one people by another has never happened! Incel rhetoric pretending to be progressive is some disturbing shit cuz young people who don't have a full grasp of their sexuality and boundaries might believe it.

[–]heidischallengedum spiro spero 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

so does that Reddit guy fuck anyone who wants sex from him?

[–]raulbikscubefloating ghost woman 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

no, when young men on the internet are "bigoted" it means they're edgy and iconoclastic.

only female "bigots" have to do sexual penance.

[–]qwertypoiuytre 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

A guy on Reddit told me once that all preferences at bigoted in some way

All preferences, really? Personally I've just never found myself that attracted to blond men. And I'm blonde myself. It's not a decision on my part, just an observation.

But I guess my preference for brunet haired men is bigotry against the blond white man? LOL I should really work harder to unpack that I guess. To quote the 90s... NOT.

[–]capnmathGravity is a social construct 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It might be racist since it's likely based on stereotyping or idealizing European features. But at the end of the day if someone doesn't want to date me because I'm black i really don't care. I only want to date people who are attracted to me. Getting rejected can suck but that's just life.

[–]Meowzz12 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (3子コメント)

race: doesn't affect the WAY you have sex

trans: DOES because despite all claims, sexual dimorphism and exists.

But even if there is a difference between the 2 things: NO MEANS NO. No exception.

[–]ProlixinMen were a mistake[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

 NO MEANS NO. No exception.

I agree completely, I just think racial preference is valid because there is a European concept of beauty in the West that negatively affects women of color, particularly black women.

[–]heartwitch 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You're saying "racial preference is valid," but it sounds to me like you mean the opposite of that -- that racial preference is racist. If you mean that it's valid to critique racial preferences, I think it would be better to put it that way...

[–]ProlixinMen were a mistake[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you mean that it's valid to critique racial preferences, I think it would be better to put it that way...

I don't think it's racist in and of itself, but I think it stems from prejudice. Women are so beautiful, I just can't imagine how a person can classify a whole race as "ugly". Not that it's our purpose to exist aesthetically of course, but I do not think it is right to put down women of color while putting white women on a pedestal.

[–]GCGayDudeShklee/Shklim/Shklee-self 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I refuse to continue speaking to someone who pulls that bullshit. They've already told me, right in their opener, that they're looking to frame me up for a moral scolding in public. That is their goal, and they will have that goal serviced no matter what you say.

Even responding to them, to me, dignifies and "makes real" that it's socially acceptable for them to needle a person publicly for the contents of her mind.

[–]AmphibiavaIt's a TERF war on a global scale 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Apart from anything else, "white-o-sexual", "black-o-sexual", etc. are not classed as sexual orientations.

[–]Question-the-QuoStill Learning 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

👆👆👆👆👆👆👆👆

[–]QatNap 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why even entertain this nonsense? Yes, sexual orientation is completely different from other dating preferences. Anyone who tries to conflate them is either deluded or dishonest. Can you imagine a woman trying to tell a gay man who doesn't want to date her that his sexual orientation is just like racism? It's absurd, insulting and not worth engaging with.

[–]Question-the-QuoStill Learning 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've always considered the whole, "I'm only attracted to this race" worth criticizing.

I mean, we are talking about an entire class of people. What is it about x race that turns you off? Is it that they're dark skinned, for example? Is it that in your mind, this entire group of people acts or behaves a certain stereotypical way, and you find these things undesirable? Aren't these reasons which are influencing your sexual preferences racist? Yes absolutely let's think critically about that!!

But also you're right, it is both pointless and harmful to pressure people into fucking other people.

I believe that by challenging colonization in our world and these perceptions we have, many of us would find that we are attracted to individual people [edit: in the confines of whatever biological sex(es) fits our sexual orientation], not race. By engaging in a process of decolonization, we would naturally stop thinking in terms of, "I am not attracted to [race/ethnicity] people".

It makes me a bit uncomfortable to hear people say they have certain race-based sexual preferences, because to me this seems like racism meets fetishization. It is an indicator to me that this person is probably pretty racist. But I don't think that pressuring people to challenge their racism through fucking who they aren't attracted to is a good idea. To repeat myself, I think they need to challenge racism and colonialism in other areas of their lives and world, and naturally they will begin to think critically about their race-based sexual preferences.

[–]nobodywhoactually 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

https://theblog.okcupid.com/race-and-attraction-2009-2014-107dcbb4f060

[–]closetedxxcishetEstrogenius 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

-old lady voice- when I was your age everyone said homosexuality wasn't a choice! I miss those days....

[–]closetedxxcishetEstrogenius 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I just love this idea that you can oppress people by not fucking them.....