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Well, its over for me (self.askMRP)

prarrottACME Inc. が 投稿

After the text discovery in my previous post (which turned out to be her just thinking I was texting another girl about getting divorced. She was not able to see whole exchange. She was just upset I was investigating divorce behind her back). a few days passed of silence. Really, what I had been dealing with anyways.

Long story short, we sit down to talk tonight. She was trying to set "rules" for me to stay in the relationship. Though I liked her attitude and some of the ways she described what she wanted in a relationship with me, I generally refused any rules. She then insisted I answer a series of questions.

This was the moment of truth. Im tired of hiding, frankly. She asked if I have kissed any other womanand I said yes. She asked if it was the same woman and I said no. She asked where I kissed them and I basically said, public places ... really theres no reason to answer that. This is where she lost it.

She has cried hysterically, and has called her sister and told her I cheated. I heard the conversation and thats all she said. The sister is on her way over to the house.

You guys have been with me from the beginning. I was a wreck of a man. I'm far from where I need to be, and I wont stop working now. But this event was ahead of where I wanted it to be, but that's my doing. I went through the dread levels too quickly. I made decisions that will compromise my marriage, and I admitted to them.

The next several days, weeks, months will be difficult.

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[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (8子コメント)

I am always amazed how a woman can be a frigid sex denying harpy for years but when she finds her husband is doing just a tiny bit of what she has denied to him as "unimportant" for so long then suddenly sex IS a big deal. It wasn't any big deal while you lay there frustrated and sad, to the point of being suicidal, but suddenly it is a big deal if you get that unimportant thing that is no big deal from someone else.

It reveals the truth that everything in the world is about sex- except sex! To a woman in particular sex is all about power. You took away her power by finding an outlet for her denials and shrill behavior and this cannot stand. She never loved you. She loved the control she had over you.

Run Forrest, run!

[–]FireTemperedred beret 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Completely agree...... but OP's problem is not getting agreement that she acts like a woman that he BluePill spoiled. His problem is him, and, that is what HE needs to address whether she checks out or not.

[–]dontbedenied 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So true. My Ex made excuses all day long for having an extended relationship with a married man. Yet when I broke up with her she went crazy and was convinced I had cheated on her. Only after discovering TRP did I realize the extent to which women use sex as a tool, as an excuse, as a reason for everything under the sun.

[–]bowhunter6 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Whatever you do my man, don't apologize, hold frame, and weather the hurricane. You can do this. If you are high enough value, she will get past it. Beware hysterical bonding. Your DNGAF meter needs to be pegged out right now. Don't be a bitch and you may make it through this. If not, who gives a fuck? Welcome to your new awesome life without her.

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My head is swirling a little at the moment, but you've described where it needs to settle. Thanks.

[–]FireTemperedred beret 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (67子コメント)

She was just upset I was investigating divorce behind her back

Upset that you were thinking about a divorce...... This woman seems to believe that the only way to deal with anything in your relationship is to brow beat you as quick and hard as possible. Yet it does not seem to be working for her lately. No doubt she is going to stay with what has worked in the past, intimidating you, but do it more and harder now that you think you can "man up" on her. She will show you!

She asked where I kissed them and I basically said, public places ..., .......This is where she lost it.

She lost it because you might have publicly embarrassed her. I can tell you that many a woman was more concerned about OTHERS knowing their man cheated, than the actual deed. But also, get real here, it was a kiss and no more.

Now she calls you a cheater and all you did was kiss a girl. You get full blame and did not even get your willy wet. Must be part of her escalation strategy that has worked in the past.

So what do now? IMO she thinks the marriage is over now that you are no longer willing to be a full beta. Probably thinks that she can't get past this with you now that you are unwilling to give in on so many things. Now her concern is about who files first or who gains advantage in a divorce. You say it does not matter in your state; she may not know that.

Reading all this stuff I see one MAJOR problem that only you can solve.

Do you want this marriage? (a lot of MERP's have asked you the same question.)

Until you answer this, you are in limbo.

If it is no, then file on her.

If it is yes, then proceed with your self improvement and leave other women alone, as you are not wired for the ambiguity it brings to a relationship.

[–]weakandsensitive 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (19子コメント)

This woman seems to believe that the only way to deal with anything in your relationship is to brow beat you as quick and hard as possible. Yet it does not seem to be working for her lately.

Uh.. apparently brow beating him works pretty damn good. He backs down quick as fuck.

For example,

This was the moment of truth. Im tired of hiding, frankly. She asked if I have kissed any other womanand I said yes. She asked if it was the same woman and I said no.

Is that what any flaired user would've done?

Because my answer if I were in his shoes would've been

Let's say I have. Why should either of us be surprised?

Prarrott has done a great job of going Rambo and setting himself up to be totally ass fucked because he decided to be a lazy ass and abdicate responsiblity. In this entire post, do you see at any point him being the primary actor? I sure as shit don't. Which is great if that's the end goal that he's going for, but somehow I doubt it.

Take a look at his earliest posts, we all knew he'd end up here. Dude is lazy.

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Is that what any flaired user would've done? Prarrott has done a great job of going Rambo and setting himself up to be totally ass fucked because he decided to be a lazy ass and abdicate responsiblity. In this entire post, do you see at any point him being the primary actor? I sure as shit don't. Which is great if that's the end goal that he's going for, but somehow I doubt it.

Take a look at his earliest posts, we all knew he'd end up here. Dude is lazy.

Just because I didn't answer like a MRP flaired member does not mean I'm lazy. Yes, I started way behind the 8 ball. But I am trying to put in the work. Just because I'm not where I need to be, to call me lazy --- that's fucking lazy.

[–]weakandsensitive 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

However you wanna hamster it so you don't feel like a lazy sack of shit. You do you.

[–]ScurvemuchRed Beret 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

--- that's fucking lazy.

so can you show / tell him what you've done?

or you going to just defend yourself some more?

[–]smokecheck1976 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Excuses and more excuses. You have put yourself in this situation. You and only you.

You weren't getting what you felt was the proper amount of sex? You had 3 kids with her somehow, was the fucking in those cases osmosis? In each case you should have known that you could be facing up to 9 month period after the birth where she was healing, her hormones were out of whack, she was (maybe) breastfeeding and that interfered with her normal desires, she was tired from the demands of taking care of a newborn (and the other kids) and trying to keep the house up. In all of that, did you think to arrange date nights, especially when the kids were a little older? Did you think to maybe hire a maid or a laundry service for a day or week to take the drudgery of day to day home life off her shoulders? Did you ever come home and tell her to just go for a walk or out with a friend so she had a chance to decompress? I'm not saying that being a SAHP is hard necessarily, just that it's a lot of drudgery, tedium, and it's every day with no relief. Add in a husband that may pay the bills but does nothing to help relieve the drudgery and then sex starts to sound like an extra chore. It isn't fair, but it is a fact.

But oh no, Mr. Ramjet, you couldn't stop there could you? You couldn't think, could you?

First, You chose to throw temper tantrums when you felt that you weren't being treated fairly and punched at inanimate objects and generally behaved like a goon.

Second, You decided to actively download a dating/hookup app. You chose to create a profile on that app. You chose to approach women on that app. You kissed women you met on that app. If you had the chance, you would have fucked them. You want to tell me again that you weren't cheating?

You lied. You lied to yourself. You lied to your wife. You lied about your wife. You lied to the women you met. Red Pill, Blue Pill, it doesn't matter. You stand before us a pathetic and honorless creature. It wasn't someone else that has done this to you. It wasn't your wife denying sex that has done this to you. You, a creature ruled by his own hubris, has done this to you.

Hell, she offered you far more of a chance than you deserved, but she doesn't live you and didn't care about the marriage, right? All you had to do to get it was to acknowledge that she, as another human being, has boundaries as well and agree to respect them. You couldn't even manage to do that.

I'll tell you what your future holds. I told you to make sure that you have copies of all important paperwork secured and to have everything ready to pick up and go in five minutes. I wasn't kidding. Go ahead and work out how much the judge is going to order in child support, because you will be paying it. Figure on having to keep paying the house note, and a car note for her as well as spousal maintenance because you two chose for her to be a SAHM. Figure out what you can afford to rent, which I suspect won't be much.

I'm not a fan of divorce. I hate family court with a passion. However, your fate is close to sealed. You may have well earned it.

[–]PurpleVeteranRed Beret 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

You decided to actively download a dating/hookup app. You chose to create a profile on that app. You chose to approach women on that app. You kissed women you met on that app. If you had the chance, you would have fucked them. You want to tell me again that you weren't cheating?

The thing is, he didn't have the balls to own this, but just dipped his toes into it. "I want kisses, but I also want to save my marriage." It was probably less about the sex and more about validation, which appears to be the same rationale for coming here so often. "I don't know what to do, but share these feelz with me.

All you had to do to get it was to acknowledge that she, as another human being, has boundaries as well and agree to respect them. You couldn't even manage to do that.

He was the one too afraid to pull the trigger, stringing it along but never committing to any course. Afraid to leave the marriage, afraid to set terms, afraid of his wife's feelings. His MAP has been more self-sabotage than an actual mission.

She's been the one with the strongest frame, so why should this be any different. It was only a matter of time until his poor opsec blew this whole thing out of the water, and his wife would be forced to end things. It sounds more and more like this was his intention all along, to avoid making any hard decisions and back her into the corner (one way or the other).

However, your fate is close to sealed. You may have well earned it.

This is what gets me... if it was his wife who had done these things with other men, there would be no gray area. The solipsism here is strong, and the advice would be loud and unanimous: divorce. I have been sympathetic to his situation, but he's jumped between rambo and half-ass so often, I don't think he really ever knew what he wanted (because he never killed the oneitis). Even now, he's playing with the idea of separation as a middle ground.

As it is, divorce really does sound like the best option here. He can follow 2guns and ex_addict_bro and start carving out a new life based on his own needs, goals, and frame.

Or maybe he can't.

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The thing is, he didn't have the balls to own this, but just dipped his toes into it. "I want kisses, but I also want to save my marriage." It was probably less about the sex and more about validation

Yes, the attention from other women was a slipperly slope for me, that I went too far down, too early. It was validation that I hadn't gotten in nearly a decade. I don't know what other reason a married man ends up kissing another woman. I never said it was a good idea, I own that it was a poor decision. But I make no excuses regarding what it was about.

which appears to be the same rationale for coming here so often. "I don't know what to do, but share these feelz with me.

No, I come here for advice. I may not heed all of it, but as has been said --- I don't have voices like this place in my ear in real life. I am getting advice and support from family and friends, but the persepective and outlook this place offers is unique. Maybe I'm purple, but I don't put my head down and follow every bit of advice given here. I guess that means I'm half-assing it.

He was the one too afraid to pull the trigger, stringing it along but never committing to any course. Afraid to leave the marriage, afraid to set terms, afraid of his wife's feelings.

This is all true. The course was to fix myself, and give her time to respond. But I strayed from that course with regards to engaging other women past conversation. Ultimately, it sabotaged that course, but that was not my reason for doing it.

I have been sympathetic to his situation, but he's jumped between rambo and half-ass so often, I don't think he really ever knew what he wanted (because he never killed the oneitis).

Also true. I knew that fixing my marriage was a long shot. I know the ways I have been treated in the past 8 years have been unacceptable to me. But then I wake up one day with my 3 kids climbing on me, and I think "I can't leave". Many here simplify the decision, but it is not simple for me. Maybe that is weakness on my part. But, yes, I have been all over the map on what I've wanted, and I own that. I have oneitis for my 3 kids and my "life" (cars, house, friends, community, etc). My wife is a part of that life, but she is not my snowflake. That was the problem, I moved on from her in my mind (kissing other women), but I could not muster the fortitude to move on from her physically because of everything that goes along with her. If you want to call it "half-assing" because I did not put my head down and have a singular focus in one direction as I contemplated overcoming years of rejection on one hand, and leaving my children on the other --- well, guilty as charged.

Even now, he's playing with the idea of separation as a middle ground.

I have no option on this. Separation is the next step, period. What I did is not viewed as infidelity by the courts on any level. We must live separate or apart for a year (because children). This is designed by the court to give us room to try and work it out. I'm open to that, but cautious, to say the least. But separation right now is not a middle ground, it is the only possible step to take toward divorce.

As it is, divorce really does sound like the best option here.

I finally accept this in a way I have not been able to before. But, I am willing to make one last ditch effort. This will be the main event. It did not come according to the normal procedure, but it is here. And I will make the best of it that I know how.

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is that what any flaired user would've done? Prarrott has done a great job of going Rambo and setting himself up to be totally ass fucked because he decided to be a lazy ass and abdicate responsiblity. In this entire post, do you see at any point him being the primary actor? I sure as shit don't. Which is great if that's the end goal that he's going for, but somehow I doubt it.

Take a look at his earliest posts, we all knew he'd end up here. Dude is lazy.

Just because I didn't answer like a MRP flaired member does not mean I'm lazy. Yes, I started way behind the 8 ball. But I am trying to put in the work. Just because I'm not where I need to be, to call me lazy instead of offering helpful advice on how to move forward --- that's fucking lazy.

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (46子コメント)

Spot on as usual.

Do you want this marriage? (a lot of MERP's have asked you the same question.)

With each passing hour I lean towards no. I still love the idea of being in a happy marriage with the mother of my children, and cruising along in life on the track we have laid out. But with each passing hour as I assess my circumstances and her brief interactions with me, I think this is untenable. I have my faults, to be sure, and I think I have owned them here, in the open. But, you have her pegged.

[–]smokecheck1976 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Look, right now, how much pain can you handle?

I can already see her in front of the judge.

"Your honor, my husband has unresolved anger issues. He punches the walls and doors and throws things when we argue. Here are some pictures from last year. He sulks for days after an argument and I am afraid of what he may do to me or the kids." - This is from your own posts on Reddit on this subject.

"Your honor, my husband has cheated on me. He admitted to kissing other women and told them he was divorced. Here is a log of his text communication with at least one of them." - From your own OP starting this very thread.

What are you going to claim? She abandoned you? You were an emotionally abusive twat that was cheating on her, and you have absolutely no proof otherwise. Are you ready to pay ~$1K/month in child support? Tack in some spousal support on top of that. Of course, you'll need an apartment with at least three bedrooms if you want to see your kids every other weekend after 6 months of family court mandated anger management counseling after 6 months waiting to get before the judge (a year before you will see your kids again if you are lucky), and if you get really lucky you won't get stuck with the house note. I'm just telling you how it's going to play out in court. I don't even need a crystal ball to see it.

You need to work on your shit. Whatever is making it so that you are unable to resolve disagreements and get angry is something that you need to solve. Your coping mechanisms are shit. Your communications skills are shit. Hers may be as well, but you can't fix her. You can fix you. Further, yes, you cheated because you had intent and set out to fulfill that intent. How would you react if you found out that she kissed another man and had been on dating apps?

[–]FireTemperedred beret 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (11子コメント)

I may have her pegged...... but why is she that way? You know that you allowed her behavior, in fact you encouraged it for years using the blue pill handbook; then she took liberties at your expense, not rocket science.

Yes you are up from zero to maybe a 3 on a ten point scale of becoming your own judge. You are far from slamming shit tests. You are still dealing with "nice guy" issues. You are not a skilled PUA. You are coming to an understanding of the RP vs BP ideas, but you are far from having that mastery of your thoughts, your emotions, and your actions.

1.) You created this mess, see it through. Why not give it some time if you can.

2.) You are not ready for the single life yet.

3.) You still have a lot of work to do on yourself.

4.) Shortcuts will get you another shitty relationship next time.

My point is you are ahead of yourself (IMO). If you Rambo through now, the costs could be high if you make a mistake.

Suggest that you set out a plan to continue improving yourself. Use your wife as a test of your progress. Start pretending that you like your wife again. Be sure that you reread the side bar items that you think have the most impact for you. Get your mind, your game, your finances and ironwork in order. You know they are not there now.

Put the effort into yourself and this marriage for a set term, say 6 months to a year or even more. Then you re-assess your progress, and, if your progress up to par, you are ready to decide the fate of your marriage. If you are not yet up to par, set a new time period and a new plan.

Everything you have said up to this point says that you do not have the finances to live separately and living without your 3 small children would crush your soul.

If you base your decisions on her behavior you are leaving you out of the process. Put another way, if your children act badly, you still love them and take care them and teach them how to behave better. BPP's book does have the plan for teaching your wife to behave better, but first, you have to be in better control of you.

If you press forward and prematurely divorce. Since you are work in progress, your children will suffer too. Yes suffer because you do not have your shit together mentally or financially to be there for them.

I see you spiraling out of control here. I think you have subconsciously sabotaged yourself. You are discouraged and tired of the fight. You are still approval seeking by gauging yourself on the reactions of your wife or some random girls on a bar. Now is the time to marshall your strength and press on. The biggest winner will be you for putting in the work. The second winner will be your kids. Your wife could win or lose, don't care, not my problem.

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (10子コメント)

This is good advice and what I have been thinking about. On the one hand, I want a divorce. I'm not sure I can un-see the years of rejection I have endured.

I have generally STFU through this for the past 48 hours, but she is still trying to control the situation. Last night she said she feels like she has 4 options ---

  1. Separate

  2. Divorce immediately (from what I can tell, we have to live separate for at least a year before divorce is granted. Maybe she will seek on grounds of infidelity, which I don't know much about, but I still believe you have to live apart for a period of time)

  3. Stay in the marriage for the kids, essentially. "Let" me do whatever I want. In other words, the way things have gone for at least 3 years.

  4. Work out the marriage and make an effort to connect.

All I said was that if we decide to stay married there will be expectations on my part on how things will be different than they have been. I know I am the one who made questionable decisions outside the marriage, but I have lived in an affection-less marriage for many years now, and I'm not going to continue with that.

Her response was to ask me what my expectations were starting out. After what I did, how could she kiss me? How could she be intimate with me? It makes her want to throw up. I did not take that as a good sign of hope.

She is clearly heartbroken as she stares down divorce. She has been crying for the better part of the last 48 hours. As I left this morning she wept and said she does not want this. Before she laid out her understanding of her options last night, she said, for the first time, essentially that she takes some responsibility. She recognizes that years ago she checked out and has not allowed herself to receive from me. She admits she shut me out. It wasn't the perfect admission or apology, but it is more than I have gotten in years. But she is still generally leaning on the narrative that she is a victim of my cheating.

She has taken the kids and went to her parents. This initially upset me, but I understand it now. I think its fairly natural for a woman to do that has discovered her husband has engaged other women. I am meeting with a lawyer today. By the end of the week I plan to make the decision if I will separate legally.

I'm glad you guys enjoy watching the trainwreck that is the unraveling of my marriage. Perhaps I screwed this all up and caused this, but our marriage has been over in her mind for at least 3 years by her own admission. As I set forth the principles here in my life, it has led me here. I will say it was extremely heartbreaking to say goodbye to my kids this morning. Separating, and standing your ground, is not all high fives and "fuck you's".

[–]FireTemperedred beret 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'm glad you guys enjoy watching the trainwreck that is the unraveling of my marriage.

No joy here. But you sound butt-hurt and defensive. Not good.

Perhaps I screwed this all up and caused this,

yes you did, but that is past, hopefully

but our marriage has been over in her mind for at least 3 years by her own admission.

again defining yourself in her terms, stop it.

As I set forth the principles here in my life, it has led me here. I will say it was extremely heartbreaking to say goodbye to my kids this morning. Separating, and standing your ground, is not all high fives and "fuck you's".

Is there a decision somewhere in there? You are not running the show until you actually go in ONE direction (that YOU choose). Listen to the crowd here, we might know something......

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Dammit! It's not over until you say it is over. Your entire problem is that you willingly give all power to the wife. You continue to do so and continue to define reality in her terms not yours.

  1. What do you want?

  2. What steps must you take to accomplish this goal?

  3. Do that.

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I cannot control what she does. If she wants to end it, then I cannot stop her. She is finally taking some responsibility for herself and her decisions.

My approach and decision will not be defined by her perceived options for herself. I will decide what I want, and proceed with that course of action. A relationship is a two-way street, however, and if I decide I want to stay in the marriage and make an effort to re-connect, then she will have to decide the same also. But, I cannot make that decision for her. I would like to wait and see if she is going to make that decision, and take responsibility for making that decision, independent of me at this point.

[–]pikadildo 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You seem to flip-flop between powerless and powerdrunk. Probably because you've both been locked into a battle mentality for so long where you think that tearing each other down accomplishes anything. The only things you can conceive are victory or defeat. That's scarcity mentality.

And yeah, it may be up to her to pick among her options, but you can still put options you want on the table and try to be reasonably flexible to meet her in the middle somewhere. Rather than waiting for her to throw you scraps. Even if you're not sure and it's just a temporary thing to kick the can down the road a bit with some boundary negotiations that'll be revisited soon.

You've written a few times that you've both got a common vision for what you want, but you're not getting there. Maybe a (sacrilege) couples counselor can help you figure out how to get what you both agree you want without shooting each other's faces off and help you be accountable to each other.

If you can afford it you may want to consider individual counseling for yourself now that you're energized and able to advocate for yourself. It can be very helpful whether or not you divorce. But secondly it sends a message. Glance over this for ideas:

https://www.chumplady.com/2013/07/real-remorse-or-genuine-imitation-naugahyde-remorse/

Things have clearly been pretty bad for you two for a while and obviously headed toward a crisis. I don't know what you've actually done beyond kissing, but come on... kissing a girl isn't the end of the world. Package up everything you've done without letting it define you and going forward don't do things you need to hide. Either don't do them or do them in the open.

Also I think you said your oldest was just getting ready to start kindergarten in the fall. Newborns / three very young kids is extremely stressful for both of you in ways not a lot of people who haven't been there understand. Things get a lot easier as each starts going to school.

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

No joy here. But you sound butt-hurt and defensive. Not good.

Perhaps. It has been a rough morning.

again defining yourself in her terms, stop it.

I may have phrased this poorly. If the marriage is over for me, it is not because she says it. I was just pointing out that my failures before, and during my journey here aren't the sole reason for the demise of the marriage. I meant to say that even she has admitted that it has been peering over the edge for some time. My actions may have finally pushed it over.

Is there a decision somewhere in there? You are not running the show until you actually go in ONE direction (that YOU choose). Listen to the crowd here, we might know something......

Yes, I decided to not object to her taking the children. I understand she is hurt. For as much pain as she has caused me, I don't have to be a hardass and uncompassionate for the pain I have caused her. I'm not going to bend over in the face of it, but I understand it.

I know that I am not running the show, because I have not chosen the direction yet. That is why I have STFU nearly completely through this. I do not have all the facts, legally speaking, to make a decision on ONE direction yet. And, if the ONE direction I choose is to stay in the marriage and continue to work on myself, and attempt to re-connect with my wife -- well that decision is not going to be as one-sided this time as it has been over the last several months.

[–]WesternhagenWinner 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I decided to not object to her taking the children.

You are ALREADY FAILING your children.

You are ALREADY SURRENDERING to the enemy.

Did you even ask a lawyer before you made that decision?

I don't have to be a hardass and uncompassionate for the pain I have caused her.

What did stonepimpletilists say? Turn off your feelings, act in your own 100% best interests, adopt a Machiavellian lack of morals. You come here for advice, right? That's good advice. You should listen to it!

[–]weakandsensitive 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You wanna know why you're lazy? Because after 5+ months here you still haven't learned how to focus on making "I" statements instead of "she" statements.

The very fucking basics of askMRP, of owning your shit, and you don't know fucking jack. The problem is you want to look at yourself like some sort of heroic martyr. Keep dreaming you delusion fuck.

[–]PurpleVeteranRed Beret 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

His MAP has essentially been to dabble at each piece of advice, and then to measure his progress by his wife's reaction. Even now, the end of his marriage comes not from any deliberate action on his part, but because he continues to equivocate everything and has forced his wife to be the bad guy.

It's the exact opposite of owning his shit.

[–]smokecheck1976 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'll save you one question at the lawyer. In most jurisdictions that require a separation period, proof of infidelity is a way around the year wait time and can provide grounds for an immediate divorce on the grounds of infidelity. That will make your already weak position in case of divorce even weaker.

That you expect to make demands of her right now is utterly laughable. That you expect her to meet those demands while you expect to not meet any of hers is, at best, childish and stupid.

As to her options:

  1. You will be fucked.

  2. You will be fucked.

  3. I knew a couple that lived like this. Hell would be kinder.

  4. The best, and least likely, option for you all.

Right now, she is trying to get control of the situation. She is the only rational adult left in the house. Did she have a dating profile? Did she go out and try to fuck other men?

our marriage has been over in her mind for at least 3 years by her own admission.

The mind is a funny thing, and this isn't completely true. Your youngest was conceived within that time frame.

I will say it was extremely heartbreaking to say goodbye to my kids this morning.

It gets so much worse. You will be laying there in bed and here a kid call out for "Daddy" and you will jerk around looking for your kid, only they won't be there. That isn't the worst either. Think how it's going to feel when some other man is teaching your kid to play catch or ride a bike. That isn't the worst either.

You can look through my posting history. I take no joy in a marriage breaking apart, especially with young children involved. I also tend to think that any worthwhile relationship requires a lot of thought and effort from both or all parties. Without defending your wife, I just don't see it from you. Your marriage was collapsing from a sort of malignant neglect. Both of you saw it. Both of you, at some level, were so busy digging in determined to make the other make the move to fix it, that things just got worse. It takes the bigger person to admit their part of the problems and work to fix their choices and behavior. Trying to fuck other women was the exact opposite of a choice to try and salvage the marriage.

Your best bet? Call her parents. Ask them for forbearance instead of forgiveness, as you have no expectation of forgiveness right now. Ask them to watch the kids for a day or two. Ask her to come talk to you. Establish what her boundaries are, and meet all of them that is possible for you to meet. Tell her what your boundaries are. Passion isn't going to be a part of this for a while even if you do manage to save things. If you can get there, go to a counselor. Neither of you seem to communicate very well. If you can get through and you still want the marriage, start doing the things that made her fall in love with you in the first place.

I've been there, right where you are without the cheating. You can either dig in harder, take the equivalent of a nuke to your entire life, and spend the better part of a decade trying to recover, or you can try to build the marriage that you wanted. Your wife sounds as if she is willing to try, but you are going to have to give a lot of ground for that to happen.

[–]FireTemperedred beret 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

As to her options:

1 You will be fucked.

2 You will be fucked.

3 I knew a couple that lived like this. Hell would be kinder.

4 The best, and least likely, option for you all.

Right now, she is trying to get control of the situation. She is the only rational adult left in the house......

Yes, Well said and spot on.

[–]ScurvemuchRed Beret 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

you like the idea of marriage as advertised. we all did.

get

the

fuck

over

it

[–]FireTemperedred beret 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I am going to dissect your last comment to me. If you are paying attention, it should be painful. If you really listen, it could get you (partially) through this.........

On the one hand, I want a divorce. I'm not sure I can un-see the years of rejection I have endured.

Make a decision, but get your act in order first.

I have generally STFU through this for the past 48 hours, but she is still trying to control the situation. Last night she said she feels like she has 4 options ---

Separate

Divorce immediately (from what I can tell, we have to live separate for at least a year before divorce is granted. Maybe she will seek on grounds of infidelity, which I don't know much about, but I still believe you have to live apart for a period of time)

Stay in the marriage for the kids, essentially. "Let" me do whatever I want. In other words, the way things have gone for at least 3 years.

Work out the marriage and make an effort to connect.

All of the above is her trying to grab the frame, take control, and even better, get you to buy into it. For her, it is about control, nothing else.

All I said was that if we decide to stay married there will be expectations on my part on how things will be different than they have been. I know I am the one who made questionable decisions outside the marriage, but I have lived in an affection-less marriage for many years now, and I'm not going to continue with that.

You made a soft demand, followed up by apologizing for your pst behavior. You set yourself up....

Her response was to ask me what my expectations were starting out. After what I did, how could she kiss me? How could she be intimate with me? It makes her want to throw up. I did not take that as a good sign of hope.

Of course not, she is negotiating for control and power and you are playing nice. You want to be direct and fair and all nice and she is playing hardball with a smile....

She is clearly heartbroken as she stares down divorce. She has been crying for the better part of the last 48 hours. As I left this morning she wept and said she does not want this.

She is scared for her own welfare here.

Before she laid out her understanding of her options last night, she said, for the first time, essentially that she takes some responsibility. She recognizes that years ago she checked out and has not allowed herself to receive from me. She admits she shut me out

Women hate admitting that they were wrong. They hate the man that makes them acknowledge their failures. This is a last shot at getting you to bow to her control, again......

It wasn't the perfect admission or apology, but it is more than I have gotten in years. But she is still generally leaning on the narrative that she is a victim of my cheating.

Yes she admits to being wrong, but it is your fault. Priceless. This is still about power......

She has taken the kids and went to her parents.

Frame grab.

This initially upset me, but I understand it now. I think its fairly natural for a woman to do that has discovered her husband has engaged other women.

It was supposed to upset you. You did almost nothing. She is playing victim. She acts like you broke her, but her goal is to break you.....

I am meeting with a lawyer today. By the end of the week I plan to make the decision if I will separate legally.

She doesn't believe you are going to do that. You have always fallen apart before. She is still playing her power game.... on you.

I'm glad you guys enjoy watching the trainwreck that is the unraveling of my marriage.

Sarcasm creeps in here......

Perhaps I screwed this all up and caused this, but our marriage has been over in her mind for at least 3 years by her own admission.

Who cares what she thinks. Get over this blue pill thinking.

As I set forth the principles here in my life, it has led me here. I will say it was extremely heartbreaking to say goodbye to my kids this morning. Separating, and standing your ground, is not all high fives and "fuck you's".

You are still talking and she is power playing. For her it is about power and control, for you it is about doing the right thing. Guess who will win as long as you play by her rules.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (19子コメント)

You'll be fine. This is just another test if you are a man or mouse.

Which is it ?

To what do you give credit fir the need to Rambo your journey ?

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (18子コメント)

Which is it ?

The answer is .. man. Its just a new look for me still.

To what do you give credit fir the need to Rambo your journey ?

Time will tell, but I'd have to say the better part of 8 years of a sex-starved, affection-less marriage. When I started to become a man, and other women noticed, well ... that escalated quickly

[–]screechhaterRed Beret 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (17子コメント)

Well, when asked about how could you ?

What will be your answer ? Can you honestly state that you have done your best to be attractive ? Can you state without fail that 8 years of repeated rejection has just left you open to other women's advances ?

Can you own this ? Don't fold now, it will be back to square one.

Tip, don't blame, but do talk, not like a woman nor an accusatory bitch.

Want to avoid counseling ? Hold frame and demand her reasons for the 8 years of rejection, or not .... I'm sure she will play the story of "not me".

Ya, she won't demand rules if you are high valid enough, and perhaps, just maybe, you have finally called her bluff. Time will tell.

Course, you were the one living in fear of her ..... of what ? An ass kicking or worse, her leaving you ?

I truly hope your journey has led you to face all fears.

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (9子コメント)

I truly hope your journey has led you to face all fears

Of this there is no doubt. My greatest fears were divorce and its impact on my children and social ostracization. I am facing both. Because I grew up, stopped cowering before my wife, and sought fulfillment elsewhere when she denied it of me. I will face my fears and the consequences of my actions. And I will live to tell the story.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Social osterisation of the children and fear of divorce are in your head and yours alone.

Fear is all consuming and if anything has caused you to actually suffer the consequences of self imposed osterisation of living you life on others terms that you have made up and dictated the terms of, for yourself

Time is now to truly implement reactionary behavior to comfort tests that give needed comfort but that you are good with the decisions you have made for your own needs. Whether or not she decided to Fuck you around intentionally or not, the mall is consequently in your court now and if you lead with no beta/omega groveling behavior, your chances of surviving this are 10-1. But, and only but, your reality of living in a half hearted relationship is only semi fulfilling and you hand come to the conclusion that it adds no value to your life.

Apparently your self discovery of wanting to be in a fulfilling relationship that adds value to you is what you wanted, but were to plugged in to understand how to get it.

In your discussions don't fold, but don't be a dick. Grovel not

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

As an update, she locked me out of the bedroom last night, and has told me to leave the house this morning. I told her I am not leaving my house. She tells me she has no other choice but to take the kids and leave.

Another of my fears is dealing with this type of stuff. She is not the type to work it out amicably for the sake of the children and her own financial benefit. She will fight me to the death just to punish me. She has done this for years on a smaller level, and I have always feared it and cowered beneath it. Moving forward in the midst of these types of situations in strength will be new for me. But I feel I have many of them ahead, starting today.

[–]WesternhagenWinner 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

You need to lawyer up immediately, if you haven't already, which you should have. Find out what your options are with respect to who lives in the house and who has custody of the kids while it all plays out.

[–]smokecheck1976 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It doesn't matter. Look at this OP's history. She is going to get the house. Maybe the easy way. Maybe the hard way.

She can already argue that he has anger issues. He is about to take it in the ass.

[–]WesternhagenWinner 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Less than two weeks ago his story was can't afford to get divorced, new house, young kids, just enrolled in private school, but Rambo couldn't keep his mouth shut or deceive her until he had his ducks in a row. That's gonna cost him. Doesn't alter the fact that he does have rights and he needs legal advice on how to limit the damage as best he can.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

A woman only has power over you that you give her.

[–]WesternhagenWinner 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Unfortunately, she also has the power over you that lawyers, the courts, and the police give her.

[–]smokecheck1976 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Go ahead and get your stuff packed. Get your accounts in order. Move money out of any joint accounts and lock any joint credit cards. Have all important information and documents in a satchel. In general, prepare as if you are going to leave the house and never be allowed to come back inside with a five minute warning. If you have any firearms, give them to a trusted friend to hold. The next piece is already moving on the board and there is nothing you can do about it.

[–]briareos_uk 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

^ the facing of fears is something that I can relate to, both in the context of living in a marriage gone awry and the context of overcoming said fears with the help of what we've learned in here. When visiting these subs you get used to a few usernames and tend to read their posts first when dropping by, in my case, yours has been one of those usernames. I have no advice to give other than to hold frame like a motherfucker, but I do wish you the best as you make your way through the shitstorm.

[–]jcrptaRed Beret 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Hold frame and demand her reasons for the 8 years of rejection, or not .... I'm sure she will play the story of "not me".

I disagree with this piece of advice.

Her hamster will gladly come up with a way of explaining away anything to make you the bad guy; by demanding an explanation all you're going to do is encourage her to make you look worse.

From what you've said, the marriage is over anyway. Rather than focus on what led to you being in this state, just focus on what you're going to do in terms of seeing the kids, maintenance and splitting the assets.

[–]WesternhagenWinner 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Her "explanation" will be blame-shifting and bullshit. She has already rewritten the entire history of the marriage such that he was always the bad guy, and the lack of sex was his fault due to him being fat, abusive, emotionally unavailable, not communicating, blah blah blah.

[–]jcrptaRed Beret 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Exactly.

And if they're at the divorce stage now, all he's doing is inviting her to come up with something juicy to tell her lawyer.

This cannot possibly do OP any good. At best, it will be ignored. At worst, it will be aired out in front of a judge who secretly disagrees with non-fault divorce settlements and is looking for an excuse to mete out some revenge on behalf of the poor wronged woman.

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

This is exactly how it is playing out. We have not said much to each other but I did mention that I could count on one hand the times she has kissed me in the last 8 years. She immediately turned this back on me (it was my fault she never kissed me), and it was such ridiculous verbal judo bullshit I could not tell you what it was

[–]SeamusAwl 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Kick a dog enough times and it eventually stops coming around.

[–]WesternhagenWinner 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The female version of this is: kick a dog enough times until it bites you, then call the police and have them shoot the "mad dog".

[–]screechhaterRed Beret 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Or, not.

Either way holding frame is all about value

Generally, value is perceived directly in response to her accusations and his verbal responses. His previous posts talk about the "things" he had said, that she hold against him and breaks frame allowing fear to control him

Whatever he does, he has to hold frame. She has smelled fear so often, she's expecting it each and everytime

[–]JDRoedell 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Tough situation. It's not when you wanted this to happen but it did. If I were you, when she initiates the next conversation you need to communicate the sentiment that BPP lays out in his response. It's your assertive right as a human (WISNIFG). Read his reply several times, internalize it and be ready to assert this to her and broken record and FOG until blue in the face.

Don't apologize or DEER. Don't address irrelevant attacks or hamstering from her. Just broken record that you expect a certain level of mutual effort. Nobody (who is worthy of it) should have to put up with a one-sided romantic partnership.

[–]ScurvemuchRed Beret 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Could have turned this into a FMOFY convo. Why didn't you?

[–]BobbyPeru 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (10子コメント)

So is this something you want ?

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Its a good, but extremely complicated question. On some levels yes, on other levels no. Its the most complicated of any question in my life.

But, is it something I will be OK with? Yes, it is now. Thanks to the tools I learned (am learning) here.

[–]BobbyPeru 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Ok Then STFU until you figure out what you want. Whatever you do, don't DEER. Sounds like she brought her sister in because she lacks the courage to do it on her own. be prepared to hold frame if they gang up on you

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (7子コメント)

The sister is here as a shoulder to cry on. She came in through the side door.

At this point, if we divorce, I will never see these ppl again really (FIL, etc) so why DEER? It is easiest for everyone invilved if I just essentially say "yes, I did that." And leave it there.

Problem still remains of what do I want. She may not pusue divorce herself because her life is pretty cush, and our kids. But, She is going to tell her whole family, who we live around (I moved her here to be closer 6 yrs ago - covert contract) and they will "punish" me socially. My family life here will be miserable.

[–]WesternhagenWinner 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You should have big big LOLs at the idea of being "punished socially" by in-laws. "What in-laws think" should be the ultimate level of DNGAF for you.

[–]drty_pr 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My family life here will be miserable

Then don't associated with them. If she wants to be a cunt and throw you under the bus to her family and they want to be immature and "punish" you socially, fuck them! Stay away. You don't need to overtly communicate it. They'll know what's up.

Or go on like it doesn't matter. Cause it doesn't. Maybe they don't talk to you the same at a birthday dinner? Then just spend that time with your kids, nieces and nephews. They'll soon come around and see it for what it is. Or they won't. In which case again, fuck them.

[–]straius 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're dwelling on the consequences a lot. Try to focus on what your responses will be to them instead. Build up a series of strategies in your head about how you should act through the possible attacks and situations you expect to happen so that you become less reactive.

The more you do that, the easier it will be to hold frame and the better you will be able to map out the conflict so that it feels less overwhelming.

Do not apologize just accept your actions, acknowledge her pain when she needs you to (but don't apologize for it), do your best not to get angry, remain as non-judgmental as possible (no tit for tat) and remember there'a no logic you can apply to change anything about how she sees things. You are becoming a better man, she will either decide you are worth staying for or not, but it changes nothing about asserting yourself in the world in the pursuit of your happiness and improvement.

Like others have said, knowing what you want is really of prime importance beyond this conflict. Ideally you should have had that identified before anything happened physically with other women, but you're here now, and it's demanding an answer.

[–]BobbyPeru 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Good. You're handling it well

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

See my edit

[–]BobbyPeru 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not trying to be a dick, but I saw your edit... Did you have a question or an implication you were trying to make? It's hard to tell since I don't know you....

[–]innominating 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You have failed to internalize your assertive rights. You're your own judge, brother.

[–]pikadildo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

What would she have to do to stop you from divorcing her?

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

You should have heard the way she described a relationship. Something I want. The answer is to engage me that way. But, its all talk. She has talked a big game before and now I know to listen to what she does.

[–]pikadildo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Do I remember that she's said certain of your behaviors are what prevents her from being the type of wife she wants to be? Is that what her rules were about?

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Her rules were about me living my own life. Specifically leaving the house at night to go do whatever.

[–]pikadildo 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you expect a reasonable woman to trust you to do that?

I don't see how you're really giving her any options here and it's incongruent with your claims to not want divorce. You've been begging her to divorce you. Why not do it yourself?

[–]Big_Daddy_PDX 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sometimes you can't continue to fake your interest or pretend that she didn't do anything to maintain your attention. Why fight for something you don't want?
I'll tell you that the relationship I have w/ my GF is fantastic. Not every relationship can flourish again after it was starved for so long.

[–]AmericanViking64 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Your looking at this all wrong, this is just the star.

You need to be setting your terms and your expectations not the other way around.

Its not going to get any easier than now.

[–]WisdomTangoFoxtrot 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

But this event was ahead of where I wanted it to be, but that's my doing. I went through the dread levels too quickly. I made decisions that will compromise my marriage, and I admitted to them.

What a disaster.

So in hindsight. Being 20/20 and all. Was the making out with HB8s worth it? What would you do differently? What would you do exactly the same?

[–]prarrottACME Inc.[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Its not quite hindsight yet. Lets see how this plays out over the next few weeks/months and I can answer that question better.

Right now Im inclined to say it was because it gave me the confidence to end (and the circumstances to end) a marriage that was likely doomed, and has been for many years.