全 84 件のコメント

[–]Primm-SlimText 87 ポイント88 ポイント  (12子コメント)

"authentic" fantasy

That is an oxymoron.

The problem I have with this is I simply disagree with your premise that COD multiplayer has ever tried to present a believable experience. I have never played a COD multiplayer game thinking 'wow, this battle could really happen' or 'this is what it's like to actually be in combat' and I do not accept that COD has ever tried to do that in multiplayer.

Single player, sure, they are telling a particular story and in this I accept they look to present a more authentic experience. It's no surprise therefore that you will not see female black nazis and you will see swastikas in Single player.

I am in the don't care camp either way. If they did not allow this customization, I would not be bothered, the fact they have I am equally not bothered. Hell, after a game I will not remember whether I was on the side of Allies / Axis / Atlas / CDF / Ghosts etc to worry about whether the models were authentic, I just remember the gameplay.

[–]Dishonored_dude_69Text[S] 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (10子コメント)

I actually think yours is probably the strongest possible counterargument to my position. If COD isn't trying to be authentic, then black female Nazis aren't a problem.

It seems we value different things in games. I personally enjoy the immersive fantasy aspect of games, and I don't think I'm alone. If COD WWII were designed with a lazer tag theme instead of a WWII theme, for example, I would probably find it far less enjoyable, even if it remained mechanically unchanged. If I didn't care about the theme, then I likely wouldn't care either way.

If the theme IS important, though, then the more authentic the theme feels, the better the theme (and therefore the game as a whole) will be.

[–]Primm-SlimText 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Different strokes for different folks.

I was just sitting here thinking about my 'Cod career' highlights, so SnD aces or ninja, moabs etc and in all cases I cannot recall what team I was playing on, as it's just not an important part of the game in my experience.

In the last couple of games, there have been numerous times where we've got 4 identical soldiers on my side and 3 more identical soldiers fighting on the other side, which is clearly ridiculous, but that simply doesn't effect my experience.

I love the fallout series and yes, that world building and immersion is incredibly important in that kind of single player game, but I just don't think it is or ever really has been a feature of COD multiplayer.

[–]Dishonored_dude_69Text[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Fair enough! I think your argument is strong, given your different priorities. Still, I'm not sure you could argue that those games were BETTER for things like identical soldiers, but then again I doubt you would.

[–]ojcooljText 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Plus in this case, when immersion just isn't a priority and shouldn't have to be for an arcade-y deathmatch, the game wouldn't be worse off for things like black soldiers or women soldiers or black women soldiers

[–]Dishonored_dude_69Text[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Also, "authentic" fantasy is not an oxymoron. You are misunderstanding my use of the word "authentic", I think. By authentic, I mean something like "believable", which I think all of the best fantasy is.

[–]Primm-SlimText 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

'Authentic fantasy' are two conflicting words so yes, it is an oxymoron and I have not misunderstood anything, you've just phrased poorly

You can have a fantasy with as many authentic WW2 elements included as possible (which is what you desire), you cannot have what you phrased.

EDIT: Not trying to take away from the fundamental point you are arguing, which you have presented well, just clarifying this as you called it out!

[–]Dishonored_dude_69Text[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think this is important, so let me try again... Realistic =/= authentic, on my use of the word authentic. Again, I mean something like believable. To say that a fantasy is believable is to say that it makes sense, given the rules and assumptions it is based on. Perhaps "internally consistent" is a more apt definition .

So, for example, if COD WWII's Nazis are meant to be ideologically true to real life (what is it to be a Nazi, if not to be a person with Nazi ideals, after all?), then black female Nazis are not internally consistent with the WWII fantasy COD WWII is trying to present, and they are therefore inauthentic on my use of the word.

[–]Dishonored_dude_69Text[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

For example: cod 5. That game certainly isn't realistic, but its maps, gun mechanics, sound design, and gore make it feel authentic, in my view. I think it would have been worse had it had black female Germans, because it would have felt far less thematically consistent, and therefore less authentic.

[–]flipdark95Text 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just wondering, why are you trying to apply this whole immersive fantasy aspect to the game's multiplayer? Multiplayer typically has never been about total immersion, especially with shooters. If anything, multiplayer typically functions as a separation partition of a game honestly, especially with shooters. Halo for example has most of the immersion in the setting from the single player, where you're experiencing a story with characters in that setting that is presented as grounded in a sense of realism. Whereas multiplayer is treated completely differently because all that matters in multiplayer is the pure gameplay, where the setting becomes a backdrop.

Singleplayer has its place, and so does multiplayer. So this un-immersion with the multiplayer when it comes to depictions of Nazi symbols being restricted or women and colored characters being available for customization purposes is probably not going to matter for most people, because they know the multiplayer is just for pure fun and enjoyment.

There are very few multiplayer games that actually focus on being a immersive simulator where realism is strictly adhered to. Verdun is a example of this, and so are simulator games with multiplayer elements.

[–]Austin_RC246Text 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not to mention, if there are in game uniforms you can select for your character, they will appear regardless of whether you are Axis or Allies

[–]gldstrText 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You should have tried the first call of duty. Felt very immersed and intense! You even had voice command quick keys, if you were on the german side your soldier would speak in german to your team.. I mean they have been pushing for authentic before, but now with a bigger target audience I feel like they abandonned that idea and just want as many people to buy it as possible, which means lets have everyone represented.. So I see your point on how now a days COD MP has not been true to a battle simulator.. but it wasn't always the case! But in the end you said it best when you said you are in the I don't care camp, cause in the end it wont matter itll just be silly to see avatars that wouldnt necessarily be there in real situations but ill be distracted trying not to die so it wont matter !

[–]DONT_PM_ME_UR_BOLLOXText 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (19子コメント)

Yeah, there's a huge circle jerk going on on this subreddits where as soon as you mention the fact that no swastikas and black nazis is unrealistic, everyone will reply with something along the lines of "GROW UP, THOSE THINGS DO NOT MATTER AT ALL!".

But the fact remains that some people actually care about historical accuracy. Also the people replying that are likely to be the same people who participated in the "WHY ARE THERE NO SWASTIKAS" circle jerk just a couple weeks ago.

[–]shmusko01Text 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

.But the fact remains that some people actually care about historical accuracy.

Then why are they playing call of duty?

Shouldn't they have History Channel documentaries and "10 Things You Never Knew About World War Two" to read?

[–]DONT_PM_ME_UR_BOLLOXText 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Maybe they actually want to experience it in the form of an interactive video game, especially one that is literally called WW2? Its not that hard to wrap your mind around, surely.

[–]shmusko01Text -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Well then they're looking in the wrong place. Full stop.

Some twat thinking a ww2 videogame- especially one with the brand Call Of Duty attached is an authentic...anything... needs to rethink their life.

[–]reallyoceanText 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (4子コメント)

They're attempting a game centered around WW2. That in itself is an attempt, to whatever extent, to create a historically accurate game. It's a copout to say that if "call of duty" is included in the title of a game you get to cherrypick when someone is wrong to complain about historical inaccuracies even when there has likely been millions invested in making this game, to whatever extent, historically accurate to WW2.

[–]shmusko01Text -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

.They're attempting a game centered around WW2. T

Ok, so.. Shooting Thompsons, throwing grenades...

.That in itself is an attempt, to whatever extent,

Right. To a very minimal extent.

. a historically accurate game.

Not so much

. It's a copout to say that if "call of duty" is included in the title of a game you get to cherrypick when someone is wrong to complain about historical inaccuracies

Absolutely wrong.

If you're expecting Call Of Duty to provide historical realism you really need to pay attention in school.

.has likely been millions invested in making this game, to whatever extent, historically accurate to WW2.

Oh yeah fucking lol. All that budget went into research and commitment to accuracy. Fucking lol.

[–]reallyoceanText 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Do you know what a spectrum is? If we're talking about the place on a spectrum of WW2 historicity where this game falls, we can pick apart literally every part of the game. This can be anywhere from relatively important aspects (like, say, the Thompson not having 9862537862 rounds per box magazine) to relatively unimportant aspects (hill #723 in town x is several sixteenths of an inch too high relative to what it actually was during WW2).

My point is that even if they got something right (giving the Thompson, say, 30 rounds in its magazine) there would always be room for you to cherrypick whatever inaccuracies you could find and thus claim that the game isn't historically accurate. You wouldn't be wrong but you'd still be cherrypicking inaccuracies which are (likely) insignificant. The point you need to understand is that not only does each person have their own standard for a game's historical accuracy and thus can place it on a different spot on that spectrum, but they're not wrong for doing so.

You didn't really address anything I said (just called it wrong, which isn't an argument) so this is mostly for others who are making similar comments. Stop hanging on 'Call of Duty' like trashing the franchise's attempts at realism makes you innovative. You're the same as every other troll and it makes you boring.

[–]box77Text -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

No swastikas

It's for business reasons

Black Nazis are unrealistic

But Afro-German volunteer soldiers isn't

[–]NothingxGoodText 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Can't spin the females fighting for the Wermarcht though unfortunately. The 13 year old boys conscripted for the defense of Berlin from the impending Soviet attack would agree to that.

[–]Red_Dawn_2012Text 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Patiently awaiting the announcement of the Volkssturm faction

[–]box77Text 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Pretty sure they wouldn't care, they had bigger problems than complaining about women and black people in a made up, basically-alternate-history multiplayer action game

[–]NothingxGoodText 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

They wouldn't care, that's why they're doing it I'd imagine. As for the alt history thing, I'd agree with ya 100% had Sledge not already claimed multiple times they're striving for an authentic World War experience, so that excuse kinda goes out the window here.

[–]box77Text 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Except they later explained they were talking about the story mode not the multiplayer and multiplayer was about fun

[–]NothingxGoodText 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hey now, I'm sure the campaign will be fun too. As for SP having a Band of Brothers tone, while Competitive MP turning into Wolfenstein, again I'd agree with ya, had they not already emphasized an authentic plan for it. Sledge came out just recently and said they're looking into having a return to the Uplink game mode, but one that's "thematically accurate" for the era, so which one is it? So again the contradiction here throws that whole idea out the window.

[–]box77Text 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, I mean, thematically accurate in the sense that you can't have a magic satellite ball in WW2, but you could maybe have some kind of Nazi artifact or something?

[–]OR3OTHUGText 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I just say give us an option to disable customized character models and call it a day.

[–]Red_Dawn_2012Text 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is the most realistic solution and my personal favorite

[–]DoomitheskText 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Now this is exactly what is needed. We need this to be seen and spread around because this would fix this aspect entirely.

[–]gldstrText -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

holy fuckkkkk mind = blown that seems like an easy solution.. HIRE THIS MAN!

[–]fugas_sfhText 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I agree so much with everything, thanks for finally writing a good, quality post about this instead of usual whining and anti-SJW hating. Sadly, many people simply do not understand this, and no matter how many times you try to explain, they still won't understand (evidence for this are the replies you got below, with people calling this a shitpost).

[–]Dishonored_dude_69Text[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you! This is encouraging :)

[–]Red_Dawn_2012Text 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think they don't understand. I think they understand just fine. I think they're mostly a product of many space CoD games in a row where immersion wasn't a deciding factor. They're totally invested in good map design and good gunplay, which isn't a bad thing at all. They just don't care as much about setting, and that's okay.

[–]ryandunkingText 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Some of these posts get downvoted to shit and some of them get upvoted to shit and get a ton of support. I really don't understand this subreddit. Btw I'm all for swastikas and no black female nazis too.

[–]fugas_sfhText 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It depends on how people express themselves. A thread with "Fuck you Sledgehammer get this SJW feminist agenda out of COD" and nothing else, are going to be downvoted because it's a part of the circlejerk... Posts like this are going to be upvoted because they provide more insight and explanation instead of usual whining.

[–]ryandunkingText 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's true. I've tried to make a few genuinely expressing my concerns but people took it the wrong way and didn't read what I had to say and just went "welp, typical bitch SJW thread" and downvoted.

[–]pregnantbitchthatURText 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Women can be whatever they want these days, even black Nazis

[–]Flag_AssaultText 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Why would a black woman join the nazis anyway?

[–]slice_of_yeetzaText 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

because thats what I identify as and this game is about me

[–]5dwolf20Text 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (14子コメント)

This is long

[–]Dishonored_dude_69Text[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yeah I kind of wrote a book didn't I... The last three paragraphs are the most important if you're pressed for time (although my argument is certainly stronger if you read the whole thing)

[–]5dwolf20Text 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

A summary would of been nice in the bottom

[–]FuXs-Text 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (4子コメント)

What percentage of the playerbase do you think will choose a black female character? On top its 50/50 if they will be Axis or Allies.

In the end, this "issue" will probably be forgotten in a week after release when people realize they cant even distinguish player models in a fast paced game like CoD.

[–]BasedRodText 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think a not insignificant portion of players will choose to play as black females simply because: 1. They can. and 2. A good-sized portion of the player base is upset with the inclusion of that model, so people will want to "trigger" them. I'm completely talking out of my ass here, but if I had to guess, I'd say we'll see 10%+ black females in the early weeks of the game due to the controversy. This while black females are probably less than 1% of the player base.

[–]Austin_RC246Text 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd play as one for a possible tactical advantage. If merely the thought of one triggers people this bad, they may not be able to shoot straight when they see one out of blind rage.

[–]FuXs-Text -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

10% means that on avarage around 1 player in both teams is a black female. Half of the time its on Allies, so you will encounter 1 black nazi female player every 2 games. Game's ruined.

[–]BasedRodText -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not complaining at all, I'm over it at this point. I'm just saying many people aren't going to pick avatars that match themselves, so we will see historically inaccurate soldiers quite often in MP.

[–]Arcade_Gann0nText 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think that a lot of this controversy could've been avoided if they limited female soldiers to the Russian and French Resistance factions. Since these factions had employed female soldiers/volunteers during the war, it's much more plausible than female Army Rangers or Wehrmacht soldiers.

Note that I'm not against female soldiers in multiplayer, at worst I find the inclusion sort of silly.

[–]GibbyGibletsText 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

no.

you get to customize your characters look, what are they going to do default you to 1 or 2 white guy faces for the times you play as germans?

campaign is "realistic" multiplayer is and always has been "you do you"

[–]SaidskerText 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What are they going to do default you to 1 or 2 white guy faces for the times you play as germans?

Yes please! That's what they would do if they had balls. That makes playing as a black american even more satisfying, they're nazis ffs no one would complain.

If they ever include the Japanese army would it then be appropriate to to have black and white soldiers? Because that would be absolutely laughable.

Actually that sounds kinda cool. If you play as the American faction you can be any race. If you play as the Germans you can be Germans, Eastern Europeans. The Sovjets would allow you to use Russians, East Asians and Muslim russians. Japanese faction allows you to choose Japanese, Chinese, Korean.

This is what they should do imo

[–]JustFuckMyShitUpTbhText 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you for this post. I'm so tired of the "ITS JUST MULTIPLAYURRR" argument. Since it's just multiplayer does that mean we should be running around with golden m16s and jetpacks during ww2? Unfortunately most of the people think that we don't want this in the game because were racist anti sjws or whatever. I don't care at all about that, I just want a ww2 game to actually feel like ww2.

And now there's the other argument here where people say they only care about gameplay and not about immersion. With that logic, we can completely strip cod of any setting and simply have textureless arenas with red and blue teams.

[–]DariussssssssText 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What!? A person on THIS subreddit expressing a VALID opinion?

Outrageous!

You deserve all the downvotes that you will inevitably get! /s

[–]Bendered1998Text 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't know why you are being downvoted, this is the truth, explained with details, I love it.

[–]Thunder19996Text 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Personally my concerns are far from all this debate.How the pace of the game will be,how much spawns will flip,there will be a powerfull semi auto like the bo3 drakon or mx garand....but I agree on the need to analize things to better understand situation.

When they stated that they were going to create an autenthic experience in a cod,I had flashbacks of what happened at bf1 1 year ago,with feminists screaming because there were no womans(using ghost as an example for a ww1 game...)and others screaming because german scouts were blacks.Dice went ahead sayng that they wanted to represent everyone that fought in ww1,even minorities,but it's no secret that they had to appease a vocal minority that wants everyone equally rapresented.

They handled it pretty well.Blacks on the allied side were justified thanks to the focus on a black division,the Harlem Hellfighters.And now womans will be in the game with the russian dlc.

On the other hand,we cannot expect this from a cod game.Not after all those years of crazy customization,not only in camos,but even with silly emotes on the Winners's Circle,which increment exponentially the supply drops income.They want everyone to be free to be special and unique on the battlefield,delegating authenticity only at the single player experience.

But why they don't limitate them to realistic armyes,such as blacks only in the US and womans just in the france resistance or Russia?Simple,matchmaking.Let's say I create my black woman soldier,if this was applied I could join matches only as a member of the allied team.I won't be able to join the axis,even if them are 2 and the allied are 5.

All in all,if camos aren't excessive I don't see that much of a damage in authenticity.In a fps,weapons and maps make the biggest impact on how it feels,and with a little work in the sound options we should have the choice to change the announcer voice or mute him/her,so everyone can customize their experience as they want.

[–]AaronLaykText 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well said my friend. The mix up of the words historically accurate/authentic are normally where counter arguments come from.

[–]Natetendo83Text 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What you're saying is correct and I sum it up simply as this: realistic setting vs realistic mechanics. Also known as making sure the game is still fun while also staying true to the source material.

For me, adding female Nazi soldiers to this game is on the same page as giving every last solder a jet pack and a laser rifle while dropping you in 1940s Europe. It just doesn't fit the setting of WWII.

[–]edwin85Text 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If COD wanted to be more realistic they should include Mexican born & Mexican-Americans in this upcoming game since they actually fought alongside American white soldiers in WWII. There are many great stories of Hispanic soldiers doing incredible heroic acts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hispanic_Medal_of_Honor_recipients#World_War_II

[–]lamallText 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You must be new here because this is a very common argument that has been discussed several times. You can say "ohh but mah kilstreeks and respwning!!!!" all you want but those are a part of the gameplay. You wouldn't want to play a game where you sit in a camp all day and eat expired food right? Well that's what a lot of WWII soldiers did for most of the day. For the majority of the time they weren't in combat. So of course CoD focuses on the combat aspect of the war because that's whats enjoyable to the player. The killstreaks and other things are also implemented for the enjoyment of the player. However, the setting still remains WWII, and in my opinion having black female Nazis makes this game sci-fi, not historical.

[–]LowblockifyText 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Counterpoint: 95% of the game's audience won't give a shit. I agree with OP but in the end it doesn't matter because the authenticity of the game is ruined by it's gameplay alone.

Tactical nukes? Incendiary shells? Silencers? Fully automatic handguns? None of that is authentic at all. SH Games is designing the game to be an eSports title, or at the very least making it more available. That alone should tell you how committed to authenticity the multiplayer is going to be.

You could just play singleplayer if you want your swastikas and white Nazis. I don't care either way because I'm going to be focused on playing the game.

[–]RahtwylrText 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This was the problem I had with battlefield 1

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]JoyousCacophonyText[M] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Hello /u/sistergranny, thanks for your comment on /r/WWII, however, it has been removed for the following reason(s):

    1. No Derogatory Language, Harassment, Bullying, Witch Hunting, etc. Age, Nationality, Race, Gender, Sexuality, Religion and Economic Status are all irrelevant here, everyone is welcome. Discriminating or insulting someone based off the above will not be tolerated. This includes Brigading, Witch-Hunting, Vote Manipulation, Flamebaiting, Clickbaiting, Reports/Videos of Hackers, Uncensored usernames in images that may paint someone in a negative light, Text Spamming and Intentional Rudeness.

    If you have any questions about the removal, or feel it has been removed in error, please feel free to Message the Moderators.

    [–]aj-PSRText 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Thank you. I've been trying to express what you just wrote for some time now but always find trouble explaining it or getting people to care. You put it perfectly, we aren't racists or sexists because we believe something that didn't happen in WWII shouldn't be in a game about WWII.

    [–]DarbyMLGText -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    >muh immersion

    [–]alexv243Text [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I thoroughly appreciate your rationality compared to the other posters who've talked about this

    [–]MrBironText [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    If they are in MP only and not SP then I see no issue.

    MP is all about choice and choosing what you like. What if a black woman wants to play as a black female character? Why shouldn't she be allowed to do this just because some cry babies don't them in the game?

    [–]narcedmonkeyText -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    finally a COD for us transgender, transracial, history whitewasher..... er shit can't say whitewash, don't want to insult other colors of color.

    fuck um, yeah Bernie 2020!!!!