全 46 件のコメント

[–]SnapshillBotPassing Turing Tests since 1956 71 ポイント72 ポイント  (8子コメント)

TIL the Civil War was actually about property rights.

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[–]19djafoij02/r/The_Constantine mod[S] 85 ポイント86 ポイント  (0子コメント)

TIL the Civil War was actually about property rights.

So was ancient immigration policy.

[–]Imperium_DragonJudyism had one big God named Yahoo 50 ポイント51 ポイント  (1子コメント)

If that dick Constantine would stop killing demons the world would be more progressive.

[–]gaiusmariusj 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't be talking to the ONE like that!

[–]ThoctarTool of the Baltic Financiers 55 ポイント56 ポイント  (3子コメント)

If you're going to trace the origins of serfdom to the Roman empire, which I don't disagree with, it shows your ignorance when you trace it to Constantine and not someone who contributed to it a lot more, like Diocletian.

[–]anschelsc 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

This is also the (presumably drastically oversimplified) version I learned. I wonder if there are multiple simplifications circulating, or if this person has an anti-Christian agenda which makes Constantine a more attractive scapegoat.

[–]ThoctarTool of the Baltic Financiers 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My guess is it has to do with the fact that Constantine is a convenient transition point from the Ancient Roman Empire to the Christian feudal system of Medieval Europe. Its not exactly a horrendous choice, moreso its a very pop history kind of choice or a very antiquated one, even if its one that on the surface makes sense.

[–]StoneRestoration1 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

He also created Constantinople. Which of course led to the Byzantines who are not true Romans....

[–]yoshiKUncultured savage since 476 AD 43 ポイント44 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And in ancient Greece the Delphic priests regarded the right of unfettered movement as one of four freedoms distinguishing liberty from slavery.

Yes, but slavery here is not hyperbole as one expects in modern civil rights discourse.

People moved constantly all over the world – be they Vikings, Crusaders or Chinese emigrants.

One of the three is not like the other, the poster probably meant Mongolian raiders.

[–]topicality 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Constantine always had a soft spot in my heart. A pivotal figure, he is blamed for so much. In reality he was likely your average noble Roman who over time came to see the Christian God has his patron.

Seriously so much of what he does can be traced back to normal actions (founding a victory city, interfering in religious matters) with just Christianity involved now.

[–]TheMastersSkywalker 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I used to hate him because I saw him as just another conquer wanting to use my religion for his own gain. But I had a professor in college who actually ended up convincing me that he was a pretty cool person.

[–]77096 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (0子コメント)

James Carroll was a fiction writer and one-time Catholic priest with a very specific anti-Catholic church agenda when he wrote Constantine's Sword. It's amazing how much influence his book (or more likely the reviews of his book) did to shape popular perception of Constantine. If you wrote a well researched book on Constantine as a great political and military leader, you'd have trouble finding a publisher. But if you're a semi-known ex-Catholic priest who accuses Constantine of inventing anti-Semitism and creating the Medieval Catholic Church, then you've got a bestseller.

[–]HerodoTotesHot air balloons broke the Siege of Stalingrad 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

he was a pretty cool person.

....ehh let's not go too far in the other direction here fam; he murdered his own son, as well as his wife (the latter via the horrifying method of overheating her bath, iirc). He wasn't the worst ruler ever, sure, and he's unfairly blamed for things that don't need to be put solely on his shoulders, but calling him a "cool guy" doesn't really seem accurate either.

[–]TheMastersSkywalker 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I meant as far as medieval kind are concerned

[–]Mathemagics15One of Caesar's Own Space Marines 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Let's cut medieval people some slack here; I don't exactly think murdering your wife by boiling her bathwater would be looked well upon by most medieval people, nobles included.

[–]OakheartIX 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (13子コメント)

By mediaeval times a large part of Europe’s population was bound in place and traded like chattels.

This seems a bit confusing. In the Frankish/later French, serfs were not traded. Land could change owner yes but serfs were not chattel traded like slaves. One cannot really be bound to a land and traded, making it a different than slavery.

[–]Darth_Cosmonaut_1917Hawaii is a sleeper state for the British empire 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Norse thralls could be traded and sold, but that's early medieval period.

[–]OakheartIX 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes, but thralldom and serfdom are different things.

[–]Darth_Cosmonaut_1917Hawaii is a sleeper state for the British empire 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

True enough.

[–]LoneWolfEkb 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

One possible reason for confusion is that the serfs of the 18th-19th (pre-1861) Russian Empire could be bought and sold without land transfer (making it far closer to slavery than the traditional definition of serfdom).

[–]OakheartIX 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It could be a reason for confusion as you say, Russian serfdom being very specific (such as factory serfs and State serfs). But if the author mixed Russian serfdom from the modern period with Western medieval serfdom it shows a real lack of understanding/research.

I think it is quite easy to look up serfdom and learn how Russian serfdom grew in the modern period compared to medieval serfdom in the Western Europe. Or the author relied too much on the stereotypes on the medieval western societies (to exaggerate, king-->nobles/knights-->serfs).

[–]gaiusmariusj 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

If you bought a parcel of land, it wouldn't come with the serfs? Where would the serf go?

[–]OakheartIX 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Serfs and peasants would already be there.

Unless it's a newly made parcel of land after forest/marsh reclamation for which case one would have to make people come to live there. And in this case, these people would most likely be free peasants and not serfs.

[–]gaiusmariusj 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

So then they do kind of trade serfs in the sense that serfs are tied to the land?

[–]OakheartIX 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

In that way, it could be considered trade yes. Although I do not know what the exchange conditions could be. However it should not be too different than when there is a new lord after an inheritance. what changes is one party of the contract between serfs and the lord.

But I don't think this equals the trade practices seen in slavery.

That would be a good question on r/askhistorians

[–]gaiusmariusj 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, it shouldn't be seen as slavery, but feudalism.

[–]funkmachine7 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

If you have company take over, today it comes with employees, same thing then.

[–]gaiusmariusj 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

No... because serfs by definition are not employees. Employees can leave whenever, serfs cannot.

[–]funkmachine7 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm saying that it would likely come with the workers/serfs/employees.

[–]spark-a-darkOops, I just forgot I was a Turk! 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Gives Bible as evidence of passports predating Constantine.

Forgets that Constantine wrote the Bible.

( /s obviously)

[–]anschelsc 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

People moved constantly all over the world – be they Vikings, Crusaders or Chinese emigrants.

Vikings and Crusaders didn't "move" so much as "pillage and conquer". I suppose this sort of person also thinks Columbus was an immigrant.

But also, don't these "constant movements" kind of contradict the thesis that Everything Changed with Constantine? Vikings, Crusaders, and (Zheng He era) Chinese emigrants were all long after Constantine's supposed introduction of restrictions...

[–]Lying_idiotNorwegian pilots won the Battle of Britain 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

well, what we call vikings settled in a lot of places, or do you combine this with conquering?

[–]anschelsc 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think I learned that the people were called "Norse" and only the soldiers were "Vikings".

[–]Lying_idiotNorwegian pilots won the Battle of Britain 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The last thing i heard was that they had basically given up making the distinction at all.

There is a lot of overlap, anyway. Calling most vikings soldiers are a stretch, as many were just farmers or fishers boosting their income with a trip abroad to visit chapels, cities near water, and other easy targets.

[–]ErictheRedding 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

But, but, people moved constantly! Constantly!

[–]19djafoij02/r/The_Constantine mod[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Which they still do if they meet the requirements. I'm away from sources (in bathroom at work), but iirc the percentage of people migrating long distances is fairly consistent across the centuries. The increased ease of travel is offset by the increased capacity of states to intercept migrants rather than deporting them years later and the taboo associated with settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing.

[–]ErictheRedding 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I just find the use of the word "constantly" a little funny and silly.

[–]Jiketi 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't think passports were introduced in the 4th century AD.

[–]MrWigggles 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Mongolian Empire had passports. I wanna say the various Chinese kingdoms after that also had passports.