No.1814315
Coup underway in Venezuela, looks like parts of military and police and CICPC
https://twitter.com/Yusnaby/status/879853606857564160
>La Carlota Air Base was taken by the CICPC commissions and military commands
https://twitter.com/AHA1R/status/879866552610209792
>Helicopters attack Supreme Court building
https://twitter.com/anitam2483/status/879856651062321152
>Military checkpoints and armored vehicles in Caracas
No.1814320
>CICPC sounds commie
>it's the fucking interior security
fugg
No.1814322
Venezuelan Government just confirmed that there is currently a military/armed uprising
https://twitter.com/AlbertoRT51/status/879862070858199040
President Maduro: "What we couldn't do at the ballot box, we will do with weapons"
https://twitter.com/marianaatencio/status/879854530422333440
No.1814325
Ayy el mio se prendió esta mierda.
No.1814326
I hope that the impose a Pinochet tier terror state so all those smug idiots will shut up about how terrible socialism is.
No.1814328
Is venezuela about to descend into civil war?
No.1814330
I think this is the end for Maduro. If it's the army revolting it's over.
No.1814334
>>1814322
Wait, the madman is couping himself?
No.1814337
>>1814315
So they've gone from shooting civilians to shooting each other?
No.1814338
Apparently, the Assembly Building was stormed by national guard, arresting/beating politicians and lawmakers
https://twitter.com/marianaatencio/status/879858289244344321
No.1814342
>>1814334
No that's just an old clip from Maduro stating if the Bolivarian revolution was dismantled that the Chavistas would take up arms.
No.1814344
What is he doing? Is maduro couping himself so that he can go full socialist?
No.1814346
>>1814326
Modern rightists idolize Pinochet because they don't actually care about human rights.
No.1814347
>>1814330
He's already set up his own militias, even if the military does side with the opposition then they are in for a civil war at least.
No.1814348
>>1814334
>>1814344
Looks like internal security/military is making their move
>>1814346
They also don't realize he ruined the Chilean economy and was an American lapdog
No.1814350
>>1814315
gee I wonder who could be behind this
No.1814351
>>1814328
No more so then Chile did when this happened.
Expect a new American backed government, death camps, kangaroo courts and the like.
No.1814354
>>1814344
>mfw Maduro starts shooting venezuelan kulaks and goes full M-L
No.1814355
>>1814347
I don't think the Chavistas have enough support from the people for that. The military was supposed to be the last bastion of support for the regime.
No.1814357
>>1814347
From what photos I've seen of the militias, they are old people armed with FALs, which makes me think they are not going to do anything at all.
No.1814359
>>1814338
>arresting/beating politicians and lawmakers
Doesn't that just sound like a little slice of heaven?
No.1814363
Please don't make the same mistake Allende made please please please
arm the populace, go fuck those bourgies up
No.1814368
>>1814337
The Venezuelan government hasn't shot civilians, you're an idiot. They grant platform to the opposition which are lynching journalists for not reporting positively about them.
No.1814371
In 5 years proles will realize that having a socdem presidente was better than having a neoliberal dictator.
No.1814373
>>1814315
fuggin at last
no more of this circus and dancing around
No.1814378
>>1814371
people are starving right now tho and there is so little medicine in the country that the number of childrens dying is reaching middle ages %
No.1814383
>>1814363
>Comparing Allende to Maduro
No.1814387
>>1814347
Please do try and educate yourself on how coups work.
During a coup, the goal is not just to liquidate the government (btw all the socialists left in government are probably going to go before a firing squad soon), but to remove and destroy all organisations that both supported the old regime and could threaten the new one.
Identifying the leadership of the socialist militias would have been a top priority in the planing for this coup attempt.
I would be willing to bet that at the same time that parliament was stormed, the militia leadership were being arrested.
After they have revealed anything of value they know under torture, they will also be liquidated (assuming they have not been already).
Left without leadership or the support of the people.
These socialist militias will almost certainly fail to mobilize.
There will not be a civil war, idiot.
No.1814390
>>1814378
If people are starving in a country that exports food, then socializing food production and distribution would instantly solve the problem.
No.1814391
I'm still torn on what I think about Venezuela, but they fucked up so bad that I can't say I didn't expect this to happen eventually.
No.1814392
>>1814387
you have failed to factor in the fact that this coup is occurring in Latin America.
We aren't on babby mode sweet heart
No.1814397
Erdogan used the coup against him to liquidate the entire Gulenist movement. Maduro could do the same, because they've now supported a terrorist attack on state institutions openly.
All Maduro has to do is survive the day.
No.1814398
>>1814391
It would be deliciously ironic if the neoliberal scheme to ruin the OPEC countries financially instead sparked socialist revolutions.
No.1814399
>>1814355
They have a fuckton support among the poor people. Not as much as during the glorious Chavez days, but it should count for something.
It gets skewered by people with access to social media, because while they studied aboard and know how to use them, it's all virgin lands for the poor.
No.1814401
>>1814390
the reason food is exported in venezuela is mostly due to the fucked up currency value. Basically the army takes forcefully "buys" said food at 1/100 the true price due to the price limits not keeping up with inflation and then going to Columbia to sell it for foreign currency which they then bring back and sell on the black market and then reinvest said money into doing the same scam.
I'm honestly stumped at why venezuela is sticking with the horrid currency system they have right now.
No.1814407
>>1814368
>The Venezuelan government hasn't shot civilians, you're an idiot.
there were a few cases reported but in every instance the cop who did it was prosecuted and investigated by the government.
No.1814408
>>1814397
Didn't Erdogan have a fuckton of support though? Would it even matter? I'm new to this whole coup thing.
No.1814409
Do we support maduro or not? Also could someone give me a quick rundown on venezuela? The rise of chavez, what he did, why the crisis, what maduro did ecc
No.1814411
>>1814401
Because it's profitable for a select group of Chavistas.
No.1814415
>>1814378
I watched a footage, where people were storming the Colombian borders to get food and stuff.
Only the dumbfucks forgot to cut out the flags at the borderposts and the guys who did the storming came from Colombia, who came into Venezuela.
Whatever transpired there may not even be related to food at all.
No.1814418
Well fuck. Maduro's incompetent as hell, but military dictatorship is worse, especially if it's in the pay of the CIA.
No.1814422
>>1814408
It was a fake coup. Since Erdogan is an ally to the West and was even more so back then, no one called it out.
No.1814423
I guess Venezuela is getting tired of being failed socialist experiment #10,243 and wants to have some good old freedom.
No.1814424
>check out twitter
>full of "America needs to intervene now!"
>"We need to provide weapons and support to the rebels!"
No.1814435
>>1814422
You sure? Erdogan definitely exploited the aftermath but the Gulenists had means and motive.
No.1814436
>>1814409
Opinion varies. Personally I support Maduro not out of any great love for him but because the opposition is simply pure neolib.
Roots of crisis lie with Chavez. Maduro just continued his policies without any innovations, so when oil prices crashed he was left holding the wreckage.
Problems are as follows:
Overspending
This one is simple. The money that rolled in from the oil boom was spent. None of it was saved for potential hard times ahead. Rather than investing it in a Sovereign Wealth Fund like Norway and capping the amount that could be withdrawn for annual budgets, or stockpiling up on reserves like Saudi Arabia, the Chavistas ran persistently high budget deficits
https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ivfB00Wed9vk/v3/-1x-1.png
Price Controls
They don't work, unless you think fostering crime and a black market are successes. The Chavistas blame an economic war but it's simple supply and demand. If I can buy something at $5 at the government approved price and resell it for 5x on the black market then why would I do anything differently? The muh privileged few who get the goods first get to resell and the poor pay the price. In 2015, overall consumer prices increased by 180 percent; yet food prices, which are subject to price controls, increased by 300 percent. This is a pretty clear demonstration that price controls are not working.
https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/12750
Currency Controls
This is the reason for the hyperinflation and unfortunately is the least likely to be reformed by the Chavistas as it is a major source of corruption and arbitrage. The official exchange rate, at which the government sold the vast majority of dollars earned from oil sales, was at 6.3 Bolivares Fuertes (Bs.F) per dollar. But a parallel market already existed, and the shortage of dollars at the official rate drove the parallel market sharply upward. At the same time, the higher parallel market price of the dollar increased inflation, because it increases the price of imported goods. And when inflation goes up, more people want to buy dollars, because they see the dollar as something secure that won't lose value to inflation. But this drives the price of the dollar up on the parallel market, which increases inflation even more. This cycle continues, causing an "inflation-depreciation" spiral. In October 2012, inflation was at 18 percent, and the parallel market rate was at 13 percent. By the end of 2015, annual inflation was at 180 percent and the parallel market rate was at 833 percent. The shortages of consumer and other goods also contribute to this spiral, and they have increased with it.
https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/12750
Perverse Subsidies
But the official exchange rate system is only one way that the government's dollar revenue is lost. Gasoline, even after the recent price increases, is about 6 Bs. per liter – or about one US cent per liter at the SIMADI exchange rate. Electricity and gas are also heavily subsidized. These subsidies cost the government more than 13 percent of GDP. For comparison, the total income tax revenue of the US federal government in 2015 was about 10.6 percent of GDP.
https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/12750
Note, however, that I do not blame some nebulous "socialism". It's quite obvious that Chavez and Co. were just social democratic populists boosting living standards with an oil bubble that eventually collapsed. Better managed economies such as Bolivia and Ecuador which also subscribed to 21st Century """Socialism""" exist.
No.1814441
>>1814424
A cup of water could fall over in some far-away country and American porkies will be drooling to invade it.
No.1814445
>>1814401
Yeah, money and markets. A little old fashioned centralized planning would fix that right quick.
No.1814446
No.1814447
>>1814328
I would say yes. I think the chavistas would have some military support because after all, Chavez before being president was a general, But i don't know sure. so, maybe?
No.1814455
>>1814409
Supporting Maduro would be like supporting Assad, IMO.
No.1814457
>>1814387
I know how a coup works m8, but they aren't always successful. This is more or less what happened in Spain in 1936, the army attempted a coup and it was stopped by leftist militias, so clearly its possible for them to stop it.
No.1814462
>>1814409
Fuck the CIA, Venezuela has to purge itself of all these parasites.
No.1814465
>>1814435
Probably was Gulenists and not faked but it's a widely held view(mainstream oppo, not tinfoil hat) that he new it was coming, read an article from twitter earlier saying he even knew the date. Tens of thousands were purged within days, the plan was made
No.1814470
>>1814436
>The money that rolled in from the oil boom was spent. None of it was saved for potential hard times ahead.
Don't think in terms of money. That was not what Maduro and Chavez did wrong. What they did wrong was to not develop the economy at all while expecting to run the entire company with oil revenue. Chavez's social programs won him support with the poor, but that counts for shit when the good times come to an end. Heavy industry is still there during depressions.
No.1814475
>>1814446
>nazi can't read
Every time.
No.1814476
Who the fuck cares about Maduro or Chavez, what will happen to reggaeton exports?!?!
No.1814477
>>1814423
>failed socialist experiment
Who could be behind such a shitpost?
No.1814480
>>1814457
>Spain in 1936, the army attempted a coup and it was stopped by leftist militias
Did you forget the years after that
No.1814490
Not gonna read the whole thread, but is it over? Is this the last nail in the Chavistas' coffin?
I saw a CNN report the other day about out-of-control Venezuelan riot police and saying hyper-dramatically "won't somebody DO something about this?" They fucking knew.
No.1814493
>>1814368
Didn't the riot police shoot dozens of people the other day?
No.1814494
>>1814493
I heard they shot trillions. It's another holodomor I tell you.
No.1814512
>>1814494
I mean, you have no evidence for thinking it's fake other than the fact that you happen to like Maduro…
No.1814520
No.1814524
>>1814493
>>1814494
they actually killed the earth's population a million times over, dumb revisionists
No.1814530
>>1814520
>>1814524
Give me literally a single shred of evidence that the riot police weren't shooting protesters en masse two days ago (just like every respectable journalist reported) or shut the fuck up.
No.1814533
>>1814524
I heard that communism almost killed everyone on mars and then the last remaining communist came to Earth. That communist was named Satan and Jesus pledged to the American Constitution to get rid of the demonic communist system.
No.1814534
>>1814480
I wouldn't consider getting bogged down in three years of bloody civil war a successful coup.
No.1814540
>>1814530
Sorry, it was troops, not riot police.
Hardly better.
No.1814542
>>1814436
>every single thing you can learn in one play through of Hidden Agenda
Just fucking kill all the Chavistas tbqh, they're retards and don't deserve to live after this.
No.1814547
>>1814533
There's a reason it's called the RED planet. And we'll make Earth red too.
No.1814553
JESUS CHRIST HOW HORRIFYING
No.1814554
>>1814470
>What they did wrong was to not develop the economy at all while expecting to run the entire company with oil revenue.
Actually Chavez did. Agrobusiness was becoming one of the largest sections of the economy.
2008 then happened and the entire economy imploded and all the investment into diversification fled.
No.1814557
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-40426642
They put "attacks" in quotes.
What the fuck are they even insinuating? That it's under dispute whether it happened or that it somehow doesn't fall under the category of an attack?
No.1814559
>>1814530
Only one died and they opened fire with bean bags and rubber bullets which happens in every riot everywhere.
The western media has a tendency to talk shit when it comes to Venezuela, like they say "Opposition protester killed in protest against Government" but if you actually read the article, you'll find the protester was killed by their own side by accident which happens A LOT.
Also a lot of the time it's the opposition protesters killing people (hell they jsut burnt a bunch of chavistas alive the other day) and the western media will pretend it was the Government that did it again by dancing around with wording. "5 killed in Venezuelan protests" sounds like the Government killed 5 people, but it was the opposition protesters attacking the poor PSUV supporters in the barios killing their community activists and such.
The PSUV and Maduro are fucking dogshit. But the way the western media glorifies the opposition and dances around with inaccurate reporting is fucking annoying.
No.1814569
How likely is this coup to succeed? The militias do exist and I know there is a base of support for Maduro even if it isn't as big as before
No.1814572
Can someone please spoonfeed me the reasons why political leaders are more politically inept than people who have Let's Played Hidden Agenda?
No.1814576
>>1814559
Thank you for the info.
I admit it seems I've been duped by the media. I realize they have a vested interest in overthrowing the Chavistas, but I figured there's no way they could be lying about all these protest deaths. Turns out they weren't lying but they weren't being honest either.
No.1814580
>>1814322
>President Maduro: "What we couldn't do at the ballot box, we will do with weapons"
Huehuehuehue, let the games begin comrades
No.1814607
>>1814576
People are dying on both sides. But the western media has a tendency to just dance around WHO is dying.
You have psycho police killing protesters, you have protesters killing eachother (terribly laid out traps for Chavistas or home made weapons misfiring/exploding or throwing a brick that doesn't hit a cop and instead hits and kills another protester) or killing Chavistas, you also have gangs of Chavistas apparently killing people as well but I haven't seen a much evidence for the later one.
One of the problems with reporting on Venezuela, is that the innercity urban areas = Opposition, Rural, poor and indigenous = PSUV. The middle class innercity urban people are going to know english, have computers and shit, so you get the entire narrative from them and hear from no one else (in terms of popular support the PSUV are still the largest party in Venezuela)
It would be like only interviewing people form #Resistance to get an idea what life is like in Trumps America, or interviewing The Tea Party activists to see what life is like under Obama. You literally only get one side in Venezuela.
Venezuelaanalysis covers the crisis from a left wing perspective of both Government support and left opposition support, so it's a somewhat okay source to use.
https://venezuelanalysis.com/
No.1814615
>>1814607
Is the left opposition a big part of it?
I do feel really bad for the people's situation in Venezuela and I think the PSUV have royally fucked up in a lot of ways, but I just don't want them to get overthrown by capitalists and their thugs.
No.1814618
>>1814607
I hope the countryside rises to help Maduro because as much as he's fucked up having another US puppet will be much worse
No.1814624
>>1814615
Left opposition exists, but neolibs control most of the venezuela opposition.
No.1814630
Marx speed, Maduro-kun.
I know Venezuela isn't socialist, but I'd rather an incompetent succdem government than another neoliberal shill fuckhole, or ancap paradise like Honduras.
No.1814632
>no crop self sufficiency
>no food price regulations
>no food vouchers
>no food price inspectors
>no non-petro industry investment
>just social democracy on borrowed time
KILL KILL KILL
No.1814673
METAL GEAR MAN CALLING FOR REBELLION BASED ON ARTICLE 350 OF THE CONSTITUTION
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWb0AiwVXZc
No.1814680
>>1814673
>helicopter rides
xD
No.1814715
Okay let's cut to the chase, what's the best case scenario for the end game here?
No.1814754
>>1814715
Coup fails, right wing congress closed, new constitution assembly declares a one party state
No.1814755
No.1814770
>>1814715
Chavez comes back from pretending to be dead and channels the power of Lenin, killing the entire opposition. He then proceeds to create a one party ML state where all neoliberals, reactionaries, and ultra-leftists are executed, and declares war on the US after revealing that he hoarded over 100,000 nukes with the full support of China who turned back to Maoism in a day and the Soviet Union, which is also back again because Putin was just joking.
No.1814791
>>1814770
And then you woke up with cum on your pants.
No.1814849
>>1814715
The coup fails and Maduro gets his head out of his ass and actually cracks down on corruption, lifted price/currency controls, and diversify the economy.
No.1814857
>>1814770
>this will never happen
No.1814896
>Rich Venezuelan Girl on Facebook
>Constantly posting about "Le evil socialist dictatorship"
>Celebrates a guy dropping grenades indiscriminately on the Supreme Court
>Activley supported the opposition's efforts to prevent the government from relieving the debt situation
>Posts articles from opposition leaders calling for US assistance
It's like everything she posts I find objectively reflects poorly on the opposition and yet she keeps posting it in support of them
No.1814900
>>1814896
Sounds like she needs to be liberated.
No.1814920
>>1814607
>have computers and shit
They weren't as expensive before 2012, poor people could afford them too. Most people have some kind of device that lets them access the internet (free government-provided Canaima laptops and tablets, smartphones that were available at a "huge discount" (official dollar rate), etc.).
But most people from Venezuela that you're going to find in places like this are shut-ins that rarely go outside so they can sleep for 8 hours and shitpost in English for 16 hours.
No.1814943
Why is this being called a coup? Small military uprisings usually happen shortly before a coup, but still.
>>1814476
That's Puerto Rico, m8.
No.1815026
>tfw by end of the year boots on the ground in venezuela, syria, yemen, iran, and cuba
posadas take me now
No.1815051
Carl is going to have a fucking field day and I'm still conflicted on if I should support them or not. This isn't Allende who wants to establish a form of Communism through democratic means, this is the same as social Democrats that call themselves Socialist.
Help me Anons! You're my only grace!
No.1815067
Why is /Leftypol/ so hell bent on blindly defending Venezuela's authoritarian government?
It's horrible for PR purposes, it makes you all power hungry tankies in the eyes of normal people, it's a collapsing dictatorship that's wildly unpopular among it's own citizens.
Is /Leftypol/ just a bunch of power hungry tankies that would prefer Stalinism to the status quo?
No.1815069
>>1814557
People are going around saying it's a false flag attack.
No.1815073
>>1815069
everything is a false flag these days
No.1815079
>>1815067
>/leftypol/ is one person
You must be new here, /pol/yp.
No.1815087
>>1815079
I don't browse /pol/.
> Everyone I don't like is /pol/
I'm just wondering why so many autists here keep defending what is a collapsing dictatorship.
Venezuela is a shithole and none of you are doing yourselves any favours by defending it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Drama/comments/6bvush/rsocialism_discusses_venezuela_while_banning_any/
No.1815095
>>1815087
>implying all of us support a state capitalist place like Venezuala
>unironically linking reddit
consider suicide, m8
No.1815104
>>1815067
It's not that authoritarian but it is poorly managed and the system they use just doesn't work because it's too hard to manage.
No.1815119
>>1815067
>bad government is under siege
>while bad, it's crimes are exaggerated to ludicrous extremes
>all of those besieging it are infinitely worse
Gee /pol/, does this sound familiar?
No.1815139
>>1814896
>>1814849
>>1814770
>>1814715
>>1814632
>>1814630
>>1814615
>>1814553
>>1814490
>>1814445
>>1814436
>>1814424
>>1814371
>>1814373
>>1814326
>>1814569
>>1814857
>>1815021
> So many autists blindly defending a wildly unpopular dictator just because "Fuck the USA"
As sketchy as the reasons for the coup and rising tensions within Venezuela is, aside from the starvation, food shortages, currency problems, I don't understand why people here blindly defend a dictator who is starving his people, simply out of spite for the USA.
I swear, if this was 1989, /Leftypol/ would support killing Gorbachev.
If it was the 1930's, /Leftypol/ would fully support the mass deaths, including gulags, Holodomor, and purges.
You are all so autistic enough to support something even more horrible than capitalism.
If you really are retarded enough to think that starving citizens in Venezuela is better than having a neoliberal, then enjoy remaining a politically impotent movement.
As much as I hate seeing the rich Venezuela citizens bitch on social media, the country is a disaster, and not everything is the result of the USA.
>>1815092
https://www.reddit.com/r/Drama/comments/6bvush/rsocialism_discusses_venezuela_while_banning_any/
That shitshow of a thread in r/socialism, where they banned actual citizens from Venezuela, who hate the regime, almost reflects most of /Leftypol/.
If the majority of the citizens of Venezuela want to overthrow the regime, would you support them?
>>1815095
Most of you get pretty sensitive to any criticism of Venezuela.
>>1815104
> Still making excuses for a shitty regime.
>>1815119
> "Everyone I don't like is /pol/"
How is capitalism infinitely worse than having a large population of starving citizens with a very low standard of living?
Where will you draw the line and admit that life under a specific capitalist nation is better than any shitty 'communist' regime?
No.1815146
>>1815139
lmao faggot your liberalism is showing
No.1815152
>>1815139
>I swear, if this was 1989, /Leftypol/ would support killing Gorbachev.
>If it was the 1930's, /Leftypol/ would fully support the mass deaths, including gulags, Holodomor, and purges.
we do that now so whats your point?
No.1815156
>>1815051
There's no shame in admitting that there is no side of the conflict worthy of your support. Best thing to do, rather than waste your time arguing on the behalf of parties you have no love for at the expense of your own values, is spend your time explaining precisely why neither side was worth your time. Make it known how Chavez and crew failed on the most fundamental level to uphold any of the promises that would qualify them as "socialists" and how the forces of the coup, based on historical precedence in the region, is likely to become a right-wing dictatorship.
Who gives a shit what Carl tries to push. His understanding of what socialism is seems to retroactively reverse itself every time he comes to the conclusion that socialism (or at least the most basic tenant of it) is worker ownership of the means of production, falling back into the idea that socialism is "government doing things" whenever his cultish following gets in a fit about how he's using "commie terms."
No.1815158
>>1815139
>I swear, if this was 1989, /Leftypol/ would support killing Gorbachev.
literally only an american can think this is a bad thing
No.1815159
>>1815139
>dictator
he won an election that was observed by multiple other nations and deemed legitimate.
>I swear, if this was 1989, /Leftypol/ would support killing Gorbachev.
are you saying we shouldn't?
No.1815165
>>1814315
Everything will be fine as long as they don't get spooked in the end.
The fake "socialism" of Venezuela needs to fuck off. But if it is to be replaced with USA's "Capitalist Democracy" then they have created the hierarchy again & they have failed themselves. Hard.
No.1815171
>>1814399
What is good Chavez for anyway? All autocrats are better of dead.
I don't think so but if Venezuela takes the Rojava approach that would be better since they have everything there for a good life, they're not in the middle of the fucking desert.
No.1815178
>>1815139
>I swear, if this was 1989, /Leftypol/ would support killing Gorbachev.
It's 2017 and I still support killing Gorbachev.
No.1815180
>>1814423
Sorry - I don't see that happening. They will more than likely end up with another type of dictatorship.
No.1815183
>>1815180
>another type of dictatorship.
thats what americans call freedom in the third world
No.1815184
>>1814351
>Expect a new American backed government, death camps, kangaroo courts and the like.
Sad reality but yes. Venezuelans are half-intelligent, half-morons through.
Some of them understand Marxism others just really believe USA is going to fix them. If they were to stay rebellious, defiant to hierarchy to the last of them that would be optimal.
>>1815180
>They will more than likely end up with another type of dictatorship.
Hope it's not the American's type. That shit most closely resembles monarchy & is very difficult to get rid off since this is a physical universe Might makes Right.
No.1815185
>>1815156
Thank you cat-anon
No.1815190
>>1815139
>How is capitalism infinitely worse than having a large population of starving citizens with a very low standard of living?
>Where will you draw the line and admit that life under a specific capitalist nation is better than any shitty 'communist' regime?
Have you looked into the people opposing Maduro? There is no question in my mind they would be Pinochet-tier.
>>1815156
The only thing to be done is defend the current regime from the most outrageous slander, and try to cultivate some sort of opposition that aren't such blatant porky shills.
No.1815195
>>1815139
>>>reddit.com/r/pol/
No.1815196
So what's the most realistic outcome here? Is there any way Maduro can stay in power, and if there is, what will he do after this?
No.1815206
>>1815196
They become another American vassal.
No.1815214
>>1815196
What do you think is more convenient in the long run?
The thing is Venezuelans are desperate, they want to live without being so oppressed by their current shitty "socialist"(™) state. It's really not the best time for revolution since forever USA has had it's eyes GAZING into fucking Venezuela because they love it's oil (major oil producer in the world) & for other typical Capitalist(™) interests.
Maybe Maduro stays but the dumbass has to make his state more for "the people" really for "the people" this time & he has to do it now. To calm things down because Venezuelans are not going to pull off a Rojava, the dumbasses will sadly fall into USA's claws.
No.1815219
>>1814346
tbqh only losers give a shit about human rights. Winners have the state and can do whatever they want.
No.1815227
No.1815239
gas the 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧guarimberos🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
bolivarian war now!
No.1815251
I wonder who could be behind this. Truly it is a mystery.
No.1815253
>>1815244
nazbol is best flag
No.1815258
>>1815139
Neoliberals should be murdered en masse, unconditionally, under any and all circumstances. If it just so happens a muh ebil dictator is doing that, it's a human duty to support him.
No.1815261
>>1815251
Why does the graph ignore fujimori in peru, and stroessner in paraguay?
Also mexico has been periodically hijacked by US imperialism.
No.1815269
>>1815239
>dah joooooooooooz
back to /pol/
No.1815281
>>1815269
Sit down, shlomo. They're a tribe unto themselves, with a consistent history of inciting disharmony among other groups in order that the tribe gains control of them. That is a problem for any orderly society.
No.1815286
>>1815281
It's also an asset to a disorderly society.
No.1815291
>>1815281
is /pol/ the political version of the flat earth society?
No.1815299
No.1815301
>>1815291
That'd be ancaps.
No.1815306
>>1815139
>I swear, if this was 1989, /Leftypol/ would support killing Gorbachev.
You wouldn't?
No.1815307
Inb4 it's the Alvardo option: military coup, overthrow PSUV, proclaim true socialism and sort the shit out.
No.1815309
>>1815139
>I swear, if this was 1989, /Leftypol/ would support killing Gorbachev.
>Implying there is anything wrong with that
No.1815311
>>1815269
"right wing death group" tried to incite a revolt against Maduro.
No.1815313
So is it still happening or is it over?
Is maduro still president?
No.1815318
>>1815139
Let's be real here if we're looking at a US backed Regime taking power odds are that entails full on intentional mass killings
That is objectively worse than a shitty succdem state
No.1815321
>>1815313
>So is it still happening or is it over?
Still happening. Maduro is el presidente until otherwise noted.
No.1815324
>>1815321
Pretty nervous tbh
No.1815330
No.1815333
>>1815313
it's still happening but everything is under control now, the rebel group didn't tried to overtake the government but it's calling to the population to go to the military bases. At this point its just more propaganda.
No.1815336
>>1815333
Ah so this was more an announcement for a revolution?
Do these guys have any history or ties with the populace?
It seems like this is babbys first attempt at insurrection tbh
No.1815337
>>1815330
other than an helicopter throwing granades to the supreme court building (that was this afternoon), no.
No.1815344
>>1815336
Ah so this was more an announcement for a revolution?
kinda
Do these guys have any history or ties with the populace?
this guys are of some kind of special unit of the army, the populace is in fact distanced from the opposition right now which is mainly composed by middle to higher class ppl.
here's the text of the rebel statement:
>Venezuelans. Dear brothers, we are speaking on behalf of the state. We are a coalition of soldiers, policemen and civilians, searching for balance and against this transitional criminal government. We do not belong to a political party. We are nationalists, patriots, and institutionalists. This fight, isn't against the rest of the state security force. It's against the impunity imposed by this government. Against tyranny. Against the young men and women who died fighting for their legitimate rights. Against hunger. Against poor healthcare. Against fanaticism. This fight is for life. This fight is for the hope we construct. This is not revenge. It is justice and conscience that leads us to look for change. We wear this armband with the color of truth and Jesus Christ, who is with us. It's because of this that we are calling all Venezuelans from the east to the west, from north to south, to accompany us in this struggle, let's go out into the streets, from Caracas to Fuerte Tiuna. And in the center of the country to every military base. So that we may reunite as brothers with our national armed forces. And together, we retake our beautiful Venezuela. In this day, we are making an aerial and land deployment with the sole purpose of giving back democratic power to the people. And in this, comply and enforce the laws to reestablish the constitutional order. It's because of this that we adhere to Articles 305 and 333 of our Magna Carta. It is our duties as state security officials to we disarm this gang of thugs to restore peace to the people of Bolivar. President Maduro, we demand your immediate resignation along with all your ministers and that general elections be called immediately. Brother in arms, we have two choices: to be judged tomorrow by our consciousness and the people, or to free the people from this corrupt government. We are warriors of god and our mission is to serve the people. Long Live Venezuela!
No.1815349
>>1815344
Yup definitely babbys first insurrection
No.1815356
>>1815344
Textbook "restoring order and constitution" speech. Right wing as fuck, babies first insurrection.
No.1815358
>>1815349
>>1815356
I remember my first coup.
No.1815360
>>1815358
A coup is taking over power from the inside not calling for an armed uprising by the population.
No.1815365
Considering /pol/ Nazis love Assad, do you think they will come to the defense of Maduro, since it is a Russian aligned state?
No.1815366
>>1815344
>This fight…
>Against tyranny.
Yaaay! I hate tyranny.
>Against the young men and women who died fighting for their legitimate rights.
YaaaaWHAT
No.1815376
>>1815365
You've been watching too much CNN.
Support for Assad coming from /pol/ has nothing to do with Russia.
No.1815378
>>1815365
The Maduro defenders are in the small minority. Ba'athism appeals far more to rightwingers, because it is essentially Fascism for Arabs.
No.1815388
Full speech by Oscar Perez (police squad pilot that stole the helicopter to start the coup).
Venezuelans
Dear Brothers,
We speak to you as representatives of the state. We are a coalition of military, police and civil personnel looking for balance and against this criminal government. We do not belong to any political party. We are nationalist, patriots and institutionalists.
This battle is not with the armed forces that are in disagreement, it is, without impunity, against this government. Against tyranny, against the death of innocents who fight for their rights, who fight against hunger, and who fight against the lack of medical supplies and who fight against fanaticism.
This fight is for our lives. It is a fight for the hope we build. This is not revenge, it is justice and our conscience which drivers us towards change. We are using our uniforms in truth and with Jesus Christ who walks with us. It is why we make a call to all Venezuelans from coast to coast and north to south to unite with us and come out to the streets. In Caracas towards Fort Tiuna and in the interior of the country to every military base so that we can find ourselves with our armed forces and together we can recover our loved Venezuela.
Today we are realizing an aerial attack with the goal to return the power to the democratic people and so that we can make our laws work and to re-establish the constitutional order. That is why we adhere to the articles 333 and 350 of our Constitution. We renounce the paramilitaries and return the peace to our Bolivarian people
We urge you to immediately, President Maduro Moros, renounce your presidency along with your entire group and to call General Elections. We have 2 options: Be judged tomorrow by our conscience and our people, to free ourselves from this corrupt government today
We are warriors of god and our mission is to serve the people. Long live Venezuela!
———————————————————————–
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYgZxnGflOU
So its a christian thing, and a police backed coup. Bit fash, and I am not sure its has enough support to be Syria 2.0. Also too close to the USA, and too far from anyone else of relevance, so it should be over as soon as the CIA decides who is the lesser evil.
No.1815410
>>1815365
they would defend Maduro by that logic but no, they mostly don't give a shit but they would preffer some 70's, 80's style us backed dictator.
No.1815647
>>1814554
>all the investment into diversification fled
how could factories and tractors and chemical fertilizer plants just fled?
and if there was no such things to begin with, then Chavez didn't do shit
Fel’dman model of expanded reproduction on which Soviet industrialization was based is now almost 100 years old but retards in the backward shitholes are still trying to attract investors and expand agriculture without first building heavy industry and then cry about CIA like little bitches when it all comes crumbling down
No.1815669
>>1815647
I also wonder why they were so naive to completely rely on oil exports when the biggest imperial superpower can pretty much manipulate the oil price and put an embargo on them.
No.1815686
>>1815669
because Chavistas are socdems
really funny thing is that Soviets were forced to sell grain when world prices were low to fund the initial push of their industrialization, while Venezuela had a decade of high oil prices
welfare oil bucks is one hell of a drug for socdems
No.1815788
>>1815647
What's the feldman model?
No.1815841
No.1815842
>>1815788
Underlying the Fel’dman model is an attempt to use the Marxian reproduction schemas to analyse long-run growth. As a result, there was some modification to the original formulation of the schemas, as Fel’dman abstracted from short-run crises in order to focus on the longer-run problems of capacity growth. In particular, concern with longer-term growth issues allowed him to abstract from shorter-run problems associated with realization of the surplus.
In the Marxian reproduction model, Department 1 produces capital goods for the economy, and Department 2 produces consumption goods. Department 1 provides Department 2 with fixed and circulating capital. In the case of simple reproduction (no growth), this is done in order to maintain existing production levels, in other words, to cover replacement. In the case of expanded reproduction, additional capital needs to be provided in order to enable the economy to expand.
>This gives rise to the idea of dividing the capital of sector A into two sections, of which one supplies sector B with the means of production required to sustain output at a given level, and the other supplies all industries in both sectors with additional capital to enable reproduction to expand. (Fel’dman 1928a, p. 176)
As a result, Fel’dman reformulated the model so that the output of each sector was determined solely by their final products. This meant that sector B not only included all consumption goods but also the capital used in producing those consumption goods.
>The value of the output of sector B can include only the value of raw materials and that portion of the equipment and producers’ goods actually used up in the production of consumer goods. … Thus the wear and tear of productive equipment in sector B must, by definition, be made good within that sector. … [P]roduction must be divided into sector B, capable of maintaining consumption at a given level even with a cessation of the inflow of producers’ and consumers’ goods from sector A, which provides both sector B and itself with all the capital required for expansion of reproduction.
Thus, starting from Marx’s division, we have arrived at a new division which corresponds, however, to another division, the Marxian simple and expanded reproduction, the ‘production of income’ and ‘the production of capital’.
>The only criterion for classifying production into the proposed sectors is whether it serves to increase capital … or only to maintain consumption at a given level. (Fel’dman 1928a, p. 177–178)
Sector B produces consumption goods for the economy and also what is needed to replace depreciation of both fixed and circulating capital.
This means that, in the case of simple reproduction, the economy would only need sector B, while the output of sector A is solely aimed at accumulation. So we are dealing with vertically integrated sectors.
Sector A produces capital goods for itself and for any expansion in the consumption goods sector. Fel’dman assumed that, before they are installed, capital goods are malleable and can be installed in either sector. Once the capital is installed, however, it is no longer malleable and cannot, therefore, be shifted between sectors, that is:
>A rolling mill cannot, so to speak, be constructed with the aid of a weaving loom, nor can a rolling pin be adapted for the production of cloth. (Fel’dman 1928a, p. 189)
The essence of the model lies in the distinction between capital goods used to produce more capital goods and capital goods used in the consumption goods sector, which is embodied in the ratio:
Ik = Ku/Kp
where Ku = capital goods in the producer goods sector
Kp = capital goods in the consumer goods sector
Ik reflects the ‘index of industrialization’.
While Ik is given at any point of time, it will change over time as a result of a changing composition of investment, which was seen as the key policy variable affecting the long-run rate of growth of the economy.
The allocation of the output of sector A between the two types of capital goods is the means by which policy influences the growth rate. The larger the proportion of sector A’s output which is ploughed back into sector A, the higher the subsequent growth rate of the economy will be. However, this results in less of sector A’s output being allocated to sector B, which reduces the economy’s ability to provide consumption goods in the near future. This means that, as a result of the assumption of the full employment of all resources, higher growth rates come at the expense of lower consumption levels.
No.1815844
>>1815842
>cont.
This illustrates the core proposition of the Fel’dman model, that to increase an economy’s rate of growth, there must be an increase in its level of industrialization. This requires a switch of resources away from the production of capital for consumption goods, in order to augment production of capital for the production of additional capital. As a result, there will be an immediate short-run fall in the production of consumption goods, due to the relative decline of the capital stock of that sector. However, since the economy is now growing at a higher rate of growth, eventually, consumption will attain a higher level than it otherwise would have. The trade-off between consumption and growth is, according to the model, only an issue in the short term.
Contrary to the popular perception that the model advocates growth at the expense of consumption, it is an attempt to describe the conditions necessary to increase the long-run growth of consumption. It is important to note that Fel’dman makes clear, right from the outset of his argument, that he sees increased consumption as the overall goal of economic growth:
>The primary objective of this work is to determine the potential volume of consumption of the masses, and its rate of growth as a function of the structure of the economy. (Fel’dman 1928a p. 174)
No.1815864
>>1815139
Right because the last democratically elected leftist leader in Latin America deposed in a US backed coup turned out so well for everybody. As shirty as Maduro is, there is a pretty good chance of him being replaced with totalitarian terror state like Pinochet. Gross mismanagement is what Maduro is guilty of, but it will pale in comparison to the dictatorial neoliberal catastrophe that is waiting to replace him.
No.1815895
>>1815864
if the people of venezuela let that happen, it's their own damn fault
No.1815908
>>1815895
The people of Venezuela do not exist
No.1815950
No.1815970
>>1815908
of course they do
they are the people that are living within the borders of the state named Venezuela, if the majority support the current government and don't wanna live in a neoliberal hellhole, they will have to act
if they do nothing, they deserve the hellhole that they allowed
No.1816014
No.1816015
>>1815970
I wish I believed in the fairytale of "all they gotta do is disagree". That's not how states work.
No.1816017
>>1815970
>groups end up supported by the CIA with infinite funding.
>"it's their own fault!"
wew
No.1816018
>>1815970
>if the majority support the current government
Chavismo has gone nowhere but down since after the 2006 presidential elections, when the opposition stopped fucking up badly.
On the 2015 parliamentary elections, the opposition got 56.2% of votes.
No.1816029
>>1816017
civil war
but yeah, it's cia funded, we should give up and go to concentration camps voluntarily
No.1816033
GOD SPEED BASED NATIONALIST CHRISTIANS
No.1816035
>>1816018
if you fight, you can cull the rodents, making parliamentary democracy redundant
No.1816065
>>1816051
>the means of production have been seized
Stopped right there
No.1816079
>>1816029
>>1816029
No, you dumb nigger.
They're going to end up fucked if they fight either way.
kys
No.1816080
>>1816051
>the means of production have been siezed
>in Venezuela
The kind of stupidity that could only come from /pol/.
No.1816086
Why the fuck do you idiots cling to Venezuela? I'm genuinely curious why you people would care about a country who's policies are social democratic and who economy is majority owned by private business owners.
No.1816093
>>1816086
Because the alternative will be much worse.
No.1816101
>>1816079
so spanish civil war was a mistake
they should just let nazi-backed franco seize power without a fight
lmao, kill yourself faggot loser
No.1816103
>>1816079
so spanish civil war was a mistake
they should just let nazi-backed franco seize power without a fight
lmao, kill yourself faggot loser >>1816079
No.1816175
>>1815067
>people think it's bad so we should lie to them and let them endorse neocolonialism
when will this meme die?
No.1816176
>>1816175
>>1815067
also
>venezuela
>stalinism
not even the most rabid leftcom would say that.
No.1816183
>>1815139
>I swear, if this was 1989, /Leftypol/ would support killing Gorbachev.
No.1816220
>>1816101
>so spanish civil war was a mistake
No one fucking said that.
The point was they are going to lose regardless.
Secondly, comparing what the Nazis had to the weapons the U.S. can supply is fucking stupid.
No.1816250
>>1816220
>No one said that
>btw, here is why the spanish civil war failed
lel
No.1816252
>>1816182
I wonder if they send bills to recipients of humanitarian aid?
No.1816255
>>1816182
GET YOUR PAWS OUT OF THE WORLD AMERICA
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
No.1816262
>>1816250
>>1816250
>no arguments
>just strawmen
find a shot gun and give yourself an enema, because you're full of shit
No.1816283
Do we have any updoots? Also preferably not Telesur, for some reason it might be slightly bias to one side in this conflict.
No.1816329
No.1816331
>venezuela is
>>1815067
>a collapsing dictatorship
>>1815087
>a collapsing dictatorship
>>1815139
>[Maduro is] a wildly unpopular dictator
(sameshill)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBwQ40TtCFA
No.1816336
Lads was this real socialism?
I need to get my narrative straight before I start arguing with people on facebook.
No.1816353
I hate tankies like those ITT defending Maduro.
I know your type; skinny little bitches with power fantasies who snitch on people who intimidate them. Been in enough meetings where you see the little dweeb get uncomfortable and next thing you know he's spreading shit about you.
I don't want you people fighting alongside me against the fascists.
No.1816354
>>1816329
Enrique Krauze is a historian, the editor of the literary magazine Letras Libres and the author of “Redeemers: Ideas and Power in Latin America.” This essay was translated by Hank Heifetz from the Spanish.
In a July 2012 article published in Bloomberg, Krauze favored the opening of the Mexican petroleum industry to private investment,[7] as it has been nationalized since 1938. Krauze began expressing his support for liberal politics three decades ago, especially with his polemic article, "Por una democracia sin adjetivos," published in 1984.
No.1816391
>>1816366
The working class are showing time and again that they are solidly right-wing in their thinking.
Class consciousness has gone the way of the Dodo thanks to skinny little bitches and rainbow flags that dominate the left now who care more about foreigners than they do about the poor in their own country.
I know all the arguments, that we are all the proletariat because we don't own the means etc. but there is definitely a classic working class and a neo-working class e.g. the middle class, bourgeois precariats. So please don't try and lecture me.
No.1816394
>>1816391
Pretending America is the entire world should be a bannable offense.
No.1816410
>>1816394
I am European.
I cannot speak for other areas so I won't, but if this coup gets popular support then the worldwide left is going to have to do a lot of soul searching.
No.1816414
>>1816391
>bourgeois precariats
You should learn what words mean you fucking retard.
>In sociology and economics, the precariat is a social class formed by people suffering from precarity, which is a condition of existence without predictability or security, affecting material or psychological welfare.
No.1816424
>>1816410
Lol what a loaded statement. The US along with its allies have intelligence agencies that specialize in this exact kind of coup. The idea that a successfully backed coup would overturn or even mildly influence our worldview is so naive I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just trolling
No.1816427
>>1816410
Are you sure you're not just spending a bit too much time on the American parts of the internet? It seems to me all the SJW types in the UK are out of touch upper middle class aging journos who have never left their bubble and only know how to mimic America because of it.
No.1816437
>>1816391
>I know all the arguments
Then why are you asking dumb questions?
>skinny little bitches
Ah!
No.1816451
>>1816414
precariat is a growing social class that is enveloping even those who have comfortably middle class backgrounds or upbringings. So mind your language, retard.
No.1816462
>>1816451
"Lower/middle/upper class" of liberal economics =/= bourgeois/proletariat of Marxist economics.
>econ101
No.1816464
>>1816451
>In sociology and economics, the precariat is a social class formed by people suffering from precarity, which is a condition of existence without predictability or security, affecting material or psychological welfare. Unlike the proletariat class of industrial workers in the 20th century who lacked their own means of production and hence sold their labour to live, members of the precariat are only partially involved in labour and must undertake extensive "unremunerated activities that are essential if they are to retain access to jobs and to decent earnings". Specifically, it is the condition of lack of job security, including intermittent employment or underemployment and the resultant precarious existence.[1] The emergence of this class has been ascribed to the entrenchment of neoliberal capitalism.[2][3] The term is a portmanteau obtained by merging precarious with proletariat.[4]
>The term is a portmanteau obtained by merging precarious with proletariat.
>precarious with proletariat.
Again learn what words mean you fucking retard.
>bourgeois precariats
No.1816486
>>1816462
>>1816464
I concede, I was getting worked up emotionally about all this stuff and it clouded my mind.
No.1816492
>>1816486
Only skinny bitches with noodle arms get emotionally worked up and clouded in their judgment.
No.1816501
>>1816492
No need to be an asshole after someone has realized their wrong.
>>1816486
It's cool dude. Some of the issues you mentioned do need to be addressed but you only need to look at the UK and its growing left to see how perceived currents in world politics can quickly and vastly change.
No.1816507
>>1816501
I'm just forcing a reality check on Mr. alpha male here.
>>1816391
>Class consciousness has gone the way of the Dodo thanks to skinny little bitches and rainbow flags that dominate the left now who care more about foreigners than they do about the poor in their own country
No.1816626
>>1816507
Nice ad hom faggot, that still doesn't make "middle class" a useful distinction to make.
No.1816787
I hope they hang these succdems from trees and throw the bodies in a fucking river
No.1816844
Ideally, the proletariats and the bourgeoisie shouldn't fight each other, but instead should work together for the mutual benefit of each class.
No.1816850
>>1814315
>every time we get a country undergoing the growth pains into full communism right wing ultranationists always get violent and ruin everything
It's fucking depressing. Too many left wingers are too far to the centre and want nothing to do with fighting.
No.1816886
No.1816887
>>1815171
>the rojava approach
you mean inviting in US intelligence and military personal?
i guess i know which side of this conflict you're on then.
No.1816898
Why is it that demsocs always fail like this, where as socdems can actually manage countries that they are leading?
No.1816901
The Venezuelan government are completely retarded fuckheads, why does anyone give a shit?
No.1816902
>>1816898
They are socdem. What made you think they are demsoc?
No.1816910
>>1816902
because he's a retarded rose
No.1816916
>>1816902
Their retarded policies of nationalization and attempts to enforce "workplace democracy"?
No.1816918
No.1816959
>>1816918
tbh >>>/christian/ is more to my taste.
No.1816982
>>1816329
>nytimes
>%2Feditorials
well at least they're honest
No.1816993
>>1816916
Can you back this up? I was under the impression they fucked this up.
I believe their retarded policies of nationalisation was not actually doing any nationalisation beyond oil. When factories were closing and workers were seizing factories I seem to recall the state stopping them.
No.1816998
>>1815139
>linking r/socialism
DUMBASS
U
M
B
A
S
S
No.1817336
No.1817447
>>1817336
>Googles "Muerte Suspendia"
Holy shit its a real movie
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mGjjLOoXDPw
No.1817453
>>1817336
WHAT FUCKING TIMELINE IS THIS
No.1817454
>>1817336
Fuck sake, what even is this timeline