Losing more Freinds to Statism....

neogeek23 · 3年前

If you are going to give up your friend over this kind of thing ... you are going to live a very lonely life. You need to learn to deal with it cause the reality is that anarcho-capitalists are an extreme minority and statists are the extreme majority. Life is too short to be so stubborn that you isolate yourself from people who disagree with you.

IMO, stand your ground on what you believe - compromise it not, but don't deprive yourself of healthy non-circle-jerky relationships. So long as the conversations remain cordial what reason is there to just stop being his friend because you disagree "so much?" Like really stop and think about what you are suggesting and the framework which (I expect) you are in. How does casting away statists who will engage with you about the potential flaws/benefits of anarcho-capitalism help you or your ideology? Short answer is it doesn't. So casting away this guy sounds like a really emotional and non-rational response from every angle.

Remember any logically honest person when interested in a topic needs to probe the potential pitfalls of an idea. Are you sure he wasn't actually interested in ancap and just checking the side of it he was concerned with because the beneficial side has already been incorporated?

Xavier_the_Great · 3年前

Why would you want to cut off a friend over political beliefs? That's quite ridiculous...

[deleted] · 3年前

Now, Im questioning if I can remain friends with this guy after last night. Lately, Ive been bit by bit cutting out all the statists from my life but didnt think that this guy would be one of them. I gotta admit, Im a bit saddened by this. But now that I know how ignorant he is, I dont know if I will be able to look at him the same way and still remain friends.

Not gonna lie, you sound kind of like one of those kids from /r/atheism going "I just don't know if I can stay friends with him now that I know he believes in a magical talking sky fairy!" There's more to life than politics. If it bothers you that much, just don't talk about it.

tableman · 3年前

(I dont drink)

I wouldn't be your friend.

jebuswashere · 3年前

The Civil War was fought because the South didnt want to end Slavery.

Do you disagree with this?

Wesker1982 · 3年前

Most people are too apathetic to even care about statism vs freedom. It is hard to get people to talk about this stuff at all. It looks like he is interested in the discussion on some level. Take it as an invitation to continue the discussion sober.

Try talking to him in writing if you can. It is easier to avoid people getting emotional or ignoring points. A lot of people IRL distract the conversation with emotions or raising the volume of their voice. Maybe try facebook.

starrychloe2 · 3年前

are you friends with anyone who has a different religion?

SeekerFaolan · 3年前

If you can't be friends with someone whose beliefs differ from yours; you are not a very intelligent person

beedharphong · 3年前

uh, he's right on all points.

remonumon · 3年前

Echoing what others have already said, I'd be pretty lonely if I could't remain friends with statists. My wife is about the only hard-core market anarchist I know IRL. Other than that, I've got one ansoc friend, 4 or 5 minarchist friends, and everyone else I know is either an apathetic statist or a devoted statist.

DavidNcl · 3年前

I can be friendly with people who I don't agree with and with whom I argue. On the other hand I have thrown a communist off my property for defending the extermination of the Kulaks. I still speak to him in the street and ask after his elderly father.

It's tough. If he's talking there's some hope. If he's snarling, not so much.

ayn_rands_trannydick · 3年前

You might want to fill out this checklist and see how many you get. Seriously. Breaking off friendships over things like this is a recognized psychological warning sign. Get help before it's too late.

[deleted] · 3年前

did you scream "WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!" at him? That totally works.

lifeishowitis · 3年前

I have friends who are 100% ancap, friends who are super-state, and apathetic friends.

As far as talking to any of my non-ancap friends go, I'm more than happy to discuss my beliefs with them if they are coming from a point of curiosity even if they ask some of the typical "who will build the roads?" questions. I am completely not interested in talking to them if they're trying to show me how wrong I am. I've shut down a conversation or left a house more than once because a person got too aggressive about it. Most of my friends learned pretty quickly that we don't hang out and have a drink if they want to do that so they decide how to proceed from there. edit I usually don't bring up my beliefs with many of my older friends, even though all of them know I'm an ancap, because I have friends and a husband that fulfill that need for me, so just talking about their kids or work or old times or whathave you is more than sufficient for me. My older friends as well as my family bring up my ideas a lot more often than I will.

I haven't really lost anyone that I considered a friend for this reason, except people for whom using the term friend would have been a stretch to begin with. I also don't see many of my older friends that aren't ancaps very often just because of location but even when I meet new people and tell them about my beliefs, it isn't very hard to discuss them and get along. But I generally don't act like a dick and am not often attracted to people who do, so that probably helps.

andkon · 3年前

Have you ever considered the possibility that what you believe is not the "truth" and that your friend is right? Open your mind.

bugman7492 · 3年前

Honestly I can't tell you exactly what my friends believe, even though we discuss anarchy and economics quite a bit. One day they all grilled,me one by one so I decided to over simplify our position and I told them, anarchy is a rejection of taxes, nothing more. They all seemed to instantly agree with that premise. So, in my eyes, theyre all anarchists in spirit, but in practice they don't give a fuck about politics.

dnap · 3年前

Surround yourself with people who are better than you, not worse. That doesn't mean ideological conformity and it doesn't mean no-statists-allowed. It means that if your friends are griping about their lot in life and choosing to wait around for someone else (especially the state) to fix it, you're in a trap. People like that are just a drain on your own time, energy, motivation, and intellect. If you fancy yourself a voluntarist, you owe it to yourself to cultivate voluntary relationships worth having.

Market-Anarchist · 3年前

The best way to cut statist friends out of your life is to move to New Hampshire.

gedvondur · 3年前

Wow. I don't care if we are talking religion, politics, or beer choices, OP, you are a lunatic radical if this shit means so much to you that you would cut out a friend for it.

Get a hobby.

E7ernal · 3年前

The people who say you'll be lonely if you exorcise statists from your life are just wrong. Plain and simple they are wrong.

You can always find people who have the right attitudes. People who just don't want to tell others how to live their lives - they're out there, plenty of them. They just need exposure to our specific ideas and they'll embrace them.

So yah, your friend is a statist of the highest order, but it doesn't mean you have to give up yet. This dude has an emotional attachment to the State. Try to address that. And ultimately, if you think he's not budging, just ask him to drop the gun on your behalf. If he won't do it, he's not your friend.

I never understood this quantity over quality approach to friendships anyways...

ReasonThusLiberty · 3年前

Ouch, tough, man. It's always a delicate balance between living in your own bubble (http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2012/03/my_beautiful_bu.html) and making compromises to expand your circle of friends.

As to how to argue more easily, see

http://voluntaryistreader.wordpress.com/2012/12/22/success-socratic-style/

This will allow you to exploit the weaknesses in your opponent's arguments more easily.

As to the actual topics mentioned, here's what I have:

1) You need to press him on which ones they are. This book is a good overview of why essentially all government regulations suck:

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/papers/2006/9/monetarypolicy%20winston/20061003

2) Check out the article I linked above. I apply the Socratic Method to the claim that deregulation caused the Great Recession

3) To fix this misconception, you need to understand the competitive process:

http://thelibertyhq.org/learn/index.php?articleID=257&parentID=32

Working conditions are just another condition of employment besides wages, and is set by supply and demand. Furthermore, about OSHA - see the book linked in #1. It shows that OSHA has had no statistically significant impact on safety. You could also try http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-handbook-policymakers/1999/9/hb106-34.pdf

On occupational licensing and other licensing, see

http://econjwatch.org/articles/occupational-licensing-scant-treatment-in-labor-texts

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2013/06/your_sort_is_pr.html

http://t.co/WQKpPYM8Kw

As well as the book in #1. Summary of all of the above: licensing is useless at best.

4) This might be a good starting point: http://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/11/10/roderick-t-long/corporations-versus-market-or-whip-conflation-now

After that, try http://www.amazon.com/The-Triumph-Conservatism-Reinterpretation-1900-1916/dp/0029166500

The above book is written by a socialist historian who actually argues that competition was alive and kicking during the Guilded Age, and that it was the big corporations which asked government for more regulations to control competition.

5) He got that big because he was simply good. He lowered prices and increased quality. Claims of predatory pricing are baseless, upon an economic analysis. See my writeup about Standard Oil on the Mises Wiki: http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Standard_Oil

6) Start with http://mises.org/daily/2317#1

Also, point out that the actually bad robber barons got big through help from the government.

7) See #2. Also, read Meldown, by Tom Woods: http://www.amazon.com/Meltdown-Free-Market-Collapsed-Government-Bailouts/dp/1596985879

See http://www.tomwoods.com/blog/deregulation-caused-the-financial-crisis/

and http://www.tomwoods.com/blog/did-deregulation-cause-the-financial-crisis/

8) Well, it wouldn't be just ostracism. The police would still get the money back...

9) Reasons are mixed, I suppose. I don't know enough about Civil War history. You might want to read DiLorenzo on the issue, though I have also heard from some libertarians that he is sometimes dishonest in how he presents the facts.

10) The facts speak - real per-student funding has more than doubled in the last 30 years with no impact on scores. If full socialism works in education (as is essentially currently the case, and as your friend suggests would be nice), why not have the entire economy be socialistically planned?

More about education: http://thelibertyhq.org/learn/index.php?listID=9

If you want to see the Socratic Method in action, check out this convo of mine:

http://libertyhq.freeforums.org/socratic-method-in-action-t477.html

But once again, I highly recommend reading my article linked in #1. It's a super helpful debate tactic.

Edit: Screw automatic fixing of numbering.

juslen · 3年前

I don't think I have lost a single friend since I became an ancap based on my beliefs. I probably pushed more people away when I was a young Neocon. But today, I surround myself with people that either respect my opposing views (they don't attempt to debate me or challenge me when drunk for example) or they couldn't give a shit less about politics. My ex gf became a Ron Paul supporter without having to preach to her. My current gf never talks about politics, and I even tell her that I'm an "anarchist." My Republican father knows my views and unless I push him on the subject, our conversations regarding politics go fairly well. My best friend doesn't care about politics. My other friend doesn't care about politics. The people I work with, that I talk about politics with don't push me on the subject either. In fact, most of the people I know are either don't care about politics or they think the government is corrupt and wasteful. I do not have a single friend that in an ancap, yet I do know a few people that supported Ron Paul. Every single conversation about politics that I get into basically involves me laughing at Obama, talking shit about George W. Bush, pointing out how idiotic and corrupt politicians in general are and how government is a complete joke. Just keep repeating that over and over and pretty soon people will learn to either respect your views (which they may or may not agree with) or they will avoid talking about politics when you are around. I think the reason why I don't run into many issues dealing with losing friends do to politics is because I'm well into my adulthood, I'm going to be 32. People are going to lose most of their friends by my age anyway. Just realize that most people you call friends today, are just there to have a good time, they are ignorant by default. Have fun while you can, and once you are old enough, those people will fade away anyways. Don't debate them, just tell them what you think and move on.

Corvus133 · 3年前

I can say I feel the same way, but focus on other things. It sucks to not have someone to share these high level understandings but isolation won't work.

I know, I'm a loner by choice. You'll never influence people by avoiding them. And, you have subreddits like this to come into. I've ever gone on some circle jerk subreddits, like pure circlejerk - http://www.reddit.com/r/whowillbuildtheroads/

So, I merely live my perspective and they live theirs. I let what I do highlight everything. If people cannot see the "action" speaking louder than words then our debates won't go anywhere.

cyrusol · 3年前

Ask him whether he would be willing to force you.

If he says yes, disband friendship.

If he says no, this makes him an AnCap, or more precisely a voluntaryist.

nonservator · 3年前

Ask him if he, personally, would murder you for not obeying (insert unjust law he agrees with but which has no victim). Then base your decision on his answer.

throwaway-o · 3年前

Facts don't change the minds of people whose minds were not set by facts. Facts just scare such people.

stephinrazin · 3年前

I have to say your friend is right on many cases. I used to be drinking the Von Mises kool aid, but I have learned a lot since then.

I agree with many anarchists, and I have tremendous respect for guys like Ron Paul. That being said, the deification of free markets is as detached as deification of the state. As in many things the truth lies in the grey area between white and black.

Never end a friendship on something such as ideological differences. In times of war, or revolution, ideology is a life or death issue. Do not rush into such a divisive mentality. It may come soon enough.

andkon · 3年前

I would focus on the main principles that

government is a busybody, one-size-fits-all solution that requires using force against peaceful people [I'll pay for roads I use, but what happens if I don't want to pay for the bridge to nowhere 2000 miles away? why should I be forced to pay for that? why can't they?] and
because the government's "customer" cannot withdraw money from the government quickly (it's called tax evasion), the gov has fewer incentives to provide a good service. [compare competitive McDonald's to a nationalized, monopoly McDonald's]

ShamAbram · 3年前

As a libertarian turned anarchist, I've dated communists for years. I think these arguments shouldn't harm a friendship. Just get on the offensive, ask him to name a president that respected his fellow man, and put him in a box as the believer in myths. For every robber baron story, ask how Standard Oil made prices soar for the common man. If he agrees with the premise, shoot him down and dismiss his literacy. You can then pivot to public education and the efficacy of teachers unions, but that may make his frail little head explode.

Gdubs76 · 3年前

Changing minds is a slow process. Set the example and go for the low hanging fruit where you can. Do not abandon friends over disagreements. The law of association is a powerful tool and people are more likely to be swayed by friends than by strangers they share a few common beliefs with. Focus on the end goal and why one means versus the other is more likely to bring it about.

whatsyourken · 3年前

I have a good friend who has even worked as a democratic campaign flack. We talk about politics quite a bit and he's fully aware of my stance. It doesn't affect us as friends.

I don't require him to make a stand and force him to change his mind. I'm playing the long game, so to speak.

SlickJamesBitch · 3年前

My good friend is a communist, we get along fine.

Cofferhouse · 3年前

I don't discuss politics with my friends, even if I agree with them, that's why I get on to reddit and other places online.

cccpcharm · 3年前

look the bottom line is there are millions of brainwashed fools who have been so indoctrinated that they can not see anything but whatthey have been told...they do not understand money printed as debt and they do not understand debt slavery and how a bloated central government plays a role in the credit scam...

And on the other hand, there are tons of people who we shall say are not system prone at many different extreme's

If you want to "win" this game in the long run, which at the very least is having some semblance of freedom, you are going to have to do something that goes against the logic of what you would really want, you will need to do this in order have any power

the problem as I see it, there are many "Awake" people, who are "awake" in different degrees, but they all have 2 primary "problems" 1. they know or feel something is wrong, may or may not know what it is 2. because of our dispersion rate within the population we are iscolated, and or scattered, we wish to unify with like minds....thus we use the internet....but the internet will not be the escape...

I HAVE THE PLAN....but it will reuire unification, which I know goes against the core principals but it will be reuired to establish what we want...AN AREA TO BE FREE

So what it does is rely on existing laws, we will need to use the system against itself.

Law 1. Legal Tender Status

The Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor..............There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash........ unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.

Law 2. http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf taxation related to churches

Law 3. http://www.atheist-community.org/library/articles/read.php?id=742 atheism is a religion

Ok so heres the plan and here's the idea

We form a new religion, based on atheist beliefs
We pool our money in a co-operative fashion and BUY DETROIT, why Detroit? because we afford it. Right now there are hundreds of thousands of abandoned properties that are for sale for virtually nothing, with our new religions pooled money resources, we go in and systematically buy as much of it as we can, in order to create a connected geographical area that will have a continuous perimeter. People that still live there can be bought out easily in order to aquire the land needed.
After the land has been acquired, the paper work been filed, all followers of the new church of atheist's will be welcome to reside in the walls of our religious compound.

We will strive to live an agrarian lifestyle and be as self sustainable as possible without interaction from the outsiders. Our religion expressly prohibits the use of gmo products. We can also throw some Amish like shit in there for further entrenchment. After the "holy land" has been established, we can then work on doing our best to cut ourselves off from "the evil ones" currency supply and establish our own community based debt free currency using legal tender status, we can use what ever we want, I will suggest tally stick currency system.

Any other "regular monies" can be used to abide the existing corporate municipality funding

This will give us what we want and need, a place to be free and a unification of like minded people who want to live a simpler free life away from the dumbfucks

I think we can do it....If our numbers could equal the amount of people who left Detroit over the last 10 years we could do it. It is the same for all of us...friends, family, starngers...in real life they all "don't get it" yet somehow here on the web we find comfort and solace with like minded people...

We must unify in real life and we must do it in a regional fashion, a type of legal succession from the union based on religious beliefs

Thoughts???, you can just call me minister Charm

RenegadeMinds · 3年前

Im cherry-picking only the bad parts of government and ignoring the good.

Because it's discriminatory to not hire a repeat convicted child molester as a baby sitter because they have some redeeming qualities...

Yeah... You just can't reason with some people.

But don't give up on your friend. I have friends that are as bad or worse. Just peck away a bit by bit. Ask innocuous questions that are personally relevant to him. At some point he may see that force and coercion aren't really wonderful things to build a society on.

Good luck!

EvanGRogers · 3年前

There's only one way to convince someone that statism is wrong.

"Do you agree that using violence against a non-aggressor is morally justifiable?"

If they say Yes, you'll win him over eventually so long as you hammer the point in that, no matter what, taxation is theft.

If they say No, then punch him in the face and steal his wallet. When he complains say "tough shit, statist".

ancapfreethinker · 3年前

Lately, Ive been bit by bit cutting out all the statists from my life

excellent...

How do you remain friends with statists?

You don't.

Do you have friends that are statists?

No, only colleagues. Anyone who supports people who steal from you, would murder you or enslave you aren't friends.

If your "friend" would hear that you got shot at a raid or a traffic stop for no reason and not immediately make plans to execute the cock sucker who did it in revenge, they aren't worth much.

If your "friend" chats with you, drinks with you, and maybe you play games now and then well they are purely entertainment partners. If your "friend" makes money with you they are colleagues. Few people actually have any true friends.

I like the definition of friendship/brotherhood of the days of the crusades. Although the motivation was perhaps "morally" questionable and rhetorically based on fantasy, it was logical (you are poor and hopeless, you have superior military force, therefore plunder) The blood oaths and brotherhoods (knights templar, other houses) forged back then seemed to mean something. People fought and died together and actually had each others backs. Those are people who I would consider were friends.

The word has been cheapened, especially with the advent of face book. It has gone form someone who you can rely on when your chips are down to someone you send cat photos to.

Let me continue by saying that I suspect a key to success and riches comes with the ability to form the 'true' friendships of old. Rich people are always very well connected. They understand the benefits of networking and group action.

Do any of you have 100% AnCap friends?

HAHAHA.

Since becoming an AnCap, has your group of friends diminished at all

No.

and is it now harder to remain friends with statists?

Friends and statist are contradictory. Again, how can you consider someone who thinks you being robbed, beaten, and even shot in order to enforce their preferences a friend. You can ally with these people, you can work with then, play with them, whatever. They aren't really your friends.

It like saying "do you have any jihadists as friends?" No! they wanna kill you, you will always be an infidel to them.

jpplayer1 · 3年前

Your friend's statism is self destructive. Do not be an enabler. Be rational and open to discussion when he is wrong. He is a true friend if he will appreciate that and perhaps start to learn more about Anarcho-Capitalism.

[deleted] · 3年前

This is ridiculous. You're going to cut yourself off from your friends because of a political difference?

It's not like anybody wakes up in the morning thinking "hmm, I'm going to initiate violence on people indirectly through state violence", they think of ways to help society with the only things that they know are available to them. It's not their fault that they don't know anything else.

All of my friends are "statists" and I still love them. They don't know what they're implying, they're just assuming consent of the governed. I'm thinking now of one of my best friends. She's a very gentle and well-meaning neocon (with a proper understanding of economics, at least). The idea of kicking her out of my life over political differences mortifies me. Sure, she misses the Bush presidency, but that doesn't change the fact that she's been there for me when I needed to get on the phone and complain about all the shit that goes on in my life for hours at a time. Who cares about politics at that point?

Some of my family has been employed by the federal government. Do you think I should never talk to my grandpa again because he worked for the feds? If you do, you're ridiculous.

At the end of the our movement is a mostly ineffective echo chamber that we can only hope changes minds generations away from now. Enjoy life as it is, keep your friends, because it almost doesn't matter what we think.

tl;dr: RE-ADJUST YOUR FUCKING PRIORITIES BECAUSE WE WILL NEVER LIVE TO SEE A LIBERTARIAN SOCIETY

[deleted] · 3年前

virgin

Nicoscope · 3年前

Lassefair

Laissez-faire

cccpcharm · 3年前

http://www.viewzone.com/collateralx.html

http://macquirelatory.com/Birth%20Certificate%20Truth.htm

http://www.goldismoney2.com/showthread.php?5644-Your-Birth-Certificate-amp-Life-Pledged-As-Collateral

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100322181848AASLsPe

http://www.mainemediaresources.com/mpl_birthcert.htm

http://stopthepirates.blogspot.com/2010/02/yes-your-birth-certificate-is-wolth.html

http://reality-bytes.hubpages.com/hub/Strawman-Are-You-A-Person-Or-Collateral

Now I could go on, and well I'm sure many can use the standard "your all a bunch of conspiracy theorist's" bullshit, but really the culmination of these post's are based on factual documents that are in existence and are the "law" which you operate under

So you can downvote all day long, but the facts are the facts, just because you don't understand or know them does not make me wrong, you are owned like cattle and sold on the open bond market and on the hook for the interest, so whatever, enjoy your bondage...

thisdecadesucks · 3年前

Most people are not even as smart as your friend. Try to just accept them for who they are, I guess...

Anarcho_Capitalism

調停者