11.1k
11.1k

HealthMany people who commit suicide have genetic abnormalities. Specifically, young people who commit suicide are likelier to have short chromosomal telomeres, while older people who commit suicide tend to have excess mitochondrial DNA. (acsh.org)

vilnius2013PhD | Microbiology が 投稿

上位 200 件のコメント全て表示する 422
並べ替え:
ベスト (提案されたアイデア)
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]st4n13lMPH | Health 485 ポイント486 ポイント  (13子コメント)

Full Paper: Aberrant telomere length and mitochondrial DNA copy number in suicide completers

[–]ezra_sinclair 237 ポイント238 ポイント  (7子コメント)

This is interesting, but I really want to emphasize that it is really almost impossible at this point to say what the correlation means or even if this is a correlation that would be found consistently. I worry this is the sort of thing people are going to run away with as having more obvious significance than it does. It's important to note that several studies that looked for the same or similar correlations failed to find them and that the study itself made more modest claims, fine tuned claims than what surfaces in the article which appears to have a bit of spin.

The potential broad relevance of the results is also reduced for me by the racially homogeneous sample group and the unique cultural factors which are driving suicide both among the young and the elderly in countries like Japan (many suicides of the elderly in Japan, for example, have more of a pragmatic tone in being motivated by obligation to not being a burden and so it's not clear if those people would also be experiencing mental illness).

I'm also concerned about the undefined variable mentioned in the full paper that says that they excluded from the study those who were using psychotropic medications. If the category of psychotropic, a broad one, is being used to exclude those who were on anti-depressants or any other medication that could be expected to potentially be very prevalent in the otherwise unaltered population of people who have committed suicide then the sample they took might itself become abnormal or suggestive through that exclusion. Again, very interesting, but very unclear what to ultimately make of this. Thanks for sharing the paper itself, it more clearly demonstrates a lot of the ambiguity here.

[–]jamaicanoproblem 46 ポイント47 ポイント  (6子コメント)

The sample size is just wayyyy too small to make any generalizations. But it does open the door to interesting future studies.

[–]ezra_sinclair 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Absolutely. I think this is a very interesting new pathway to examining the subject matter and I feel privileged to be alive in a time where we can even speculate about the intersection of microbiology and the most existential human decisions. I just see people extrapolating a lot of conclusions from the study that can't really responsibly be made so I think as hungry for answers as we all are about issues like this I think we need to strive to keep a level head and accept the unknowns.

[–]junkdun 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's not how statistics work. The effect size was so large that even a small sample showed differences that would be extremely unlikely due to chance alone. The main limitations come from the homogeneity of the sample, not its size. Ezra-sinclair's observations are excellent.

コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

    [–]AndrewnotJackson 90 ポイント91 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Thanks for posting a link to the full paper

    [–]e_swartzGrad Student | Neuroscience | Stem Cell Biology 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    For those too lazy to click the article, here is the data that from which the title is sourced. (a) is telomere length, (b) is mtDNA. red dots (SC) is the completed suicidal group. A lot of things in biology are statistically significant, and p-values can be played with where large samples can actually lead to more statistical significance if things like variance in your sample is limited. A simple example is shown here. The important thing to ask is: (1) What is the effect size, and then (2) is this biologically meaningful?

    I'm not necessarily saying that's what is happening here, but you should be careful when study conclusions are drawn from p-values rather than biological relevance. Of course, this particular case would be pretty hard to tie to together. There are obviously a lot of other variables involved. A simple question you can ask, however, is what is the predictive value of the results? I don't think any psychiatrist would take someone's suicidal thoughts more/less seriously if they knew their patient's telomere length and mtDNA score, for instance.

    [–]st4n13lMPH | Health 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    A lot of things in biology are statistically significant, and p-values can be played with where large samples can actually lead to more statistical significance if things like variance in your sample is limited. A simple example is shown here. The important thing to ask is: (1) What is the effect size, and then (2) is this biologically meaningful?

    I second this explanation. It isn't just biology that this occurs in. As a data analyst, I often do analyses that have statistically significant findings that are not really meaningful. And the hard part is, it's really up to the researcher to determine what is meaningful.

     

    For example, using a pen vs using a pencil may have a statistically significant impact on math exam scores. However, if the beta coefficient is only 0.5, then while statistically significant, it is practically meaningless in application. (Sorry for the pretty rough explanation)

    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

      コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

        [–]Haus_of_Pain 406 ポイント407 ポイント  (44子コメント)

        do they know of anyone who has both (short telomeres and excess mitochondrial DNA) ?

        [–]shortinstyle 424 ポイント425 ポイント  (79子コメント)

        Doesn't stress and aging cause the body to shorten telomeres? So theres probably undeniable correlation between extreme stress and unprivileged life circumstances and suicide.

        [–]Focusi 206 ポイント207 ポイント  (68子コメント)

        Vitamin D can help lengthen them though. Most likely, stress combined with vitamin D deficienies are a big cause

        [–]thatwombat 285 ポイント286 ポイント  (32子コメント)

        An indoor office job sounds like it would fit the bill.

        [–]agangofoldwomen 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        A number of longitudinal research studies have shown that the best thing to do for your health if you have an office job is to stand up at your desk, walk outside, and never come back.

        コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

          [–]rulerofthehell 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Vitamin D helps lengthen Telemores? Source?

          [–]findtheparadox 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I'm thinking they're referring to possibility of vit D having a role in the rate of telomere degradation. There's no hard research other than correlation to my awareness.

          [–]eightfoldeyes 33 ポイント34 ポイント  (24子コメント)

          r/supplements and the like always talk about how the majority of westerners are vitamin D deficient. can anyone comment on this? as someone who doesn't go outside a ton but also isn't a shut in, i didn't notice any effects of taking vitamin D pills.

          [–]chickennuggetphone 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (6子コメント)

          I can only speak from personal experience but I was in a therapy group for people with depression/suicidal tendencies. We had all had our blood drawn at various times in the prior weeks and we all had severe vitamin D deficiency.

          [–]Mikeman2047 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          People from northern climes are all very likely to have serious vit. D deficiencies, regardless of being actually depressed or not. Seasonal affective disorder is definitely a thing for some people, but it's much more complex than "depression is a result of low vitamin D"

          [–]Roozer23 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

          So in the bigger picture, perhaps it's incredibly unnatural to spend your days in an office?

          [–]AdvocateForTulkas 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I can't recall what it is beyond a genetic difference but there's a notable amount of people that don't process or create vitamin D even half as well as "normal" people. So there's that.

          コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

            コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

              [–]PM_Me_Buttery_Stuff 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              I can also add anecdotal evidence. My deficiency was so severe that the doctor couldn't believe I was functioning. Started taking a 50,000 iud once a week. After a month or so, I noticed that my mind had become unclouded and information processing took a lot less effort. Vitamin D will always be in my medicine cabinet.

              [–]Froztwolf 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (3子コメント)

              Only anecdotal evidence that I was severely vitamin D deficient and depressed, and getting back up to recommended levels had a great effect on my mood and energy levels.

              To get there I took much larger doses than the RDA, but I would only recommend that for people that have been diagnosed as deficient and in cooperation (simple blood test) with a doctor.

              [–]redmongrel 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              How did you dose that, something over the counter (if so, what brand) or prescription?

              [–]raegirl1 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Anecdotal evidence here as well. Had band for a year and a half a few years back and was outside EVERY DAY as well as having lunch outside most days. Once I quit my vitamin D levels went down and I was showing depressive symptoms due to an increased sedentary lifestyle over the years and less sunlight. Now I HAVE to go outside every day for a few hours as well as having 50K unit vitamin D supplements weekly for my whole life. :/

              [–]ezra_sinclair 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              There's no evidence to suggest that vitamin D deficiency has that kind of prevalence, but it is a somewhat more complicated issue than that. Vitamin D, like many vitamins, is linked to the quality of a person's diet, but due to the role sun exposure plays it also has ties to lifestyle. It's also true that good health in general tends to keep the bodies ability to absorb, metabolize and retain vitamins normal so sometimes deficiencies or low levels can indicate health problems not caused by deficiency itself. So we have this problem when studying vitamin deficiency in general and vitamin d specifically where vitamin d deficiency is almost always so strongly correlated to poor general health and lifestyle choices that from that people often engineer the idea that the deficiency plays a causal role and even that vitamin d supplementation has intrinsic healing properties for those problems in people who are not deficient.

              There's also quite a pretty damning amount of evidence to suggest that supplementation specifically, in the absence of a diagnosable deficiency, has virtually no demonstrable health benefits. This coupled with the fact that malnutrition and true deficiencies are rare in the developed world among people eating a normal, run of the mill diet, makes supplementation generally unnecessary.

              Anecdotally, I've noted that people often start taking supplements after becoming more invested in their health, wellness and making a commitment to improve their life and mood. I think it's the commitment and the other positive choices and outlook changes that it leads to the benefit attributed to supplements in the majority of cases.

              [–]repeat_request 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

              I don't know how well this will be received, but for years I've taken large doses of vitamin D supplements (I live in the PNW) to try and offset depression. I noticed no real change until I started going to the tanning salon. I understand there are some real risks to tanning, but the Vitamin D you get from UV is somehow much more effective at helping with depression. It's changed my life, and I don't mean that in any subtle way. Doing 'whole body UV therapy' (which is what I consider it, "tanning" is a side effect) has helped to relieve my depression more than anything else I have done, including anti-depression drugs. I feel that the benefits of relieving my depression are much more than the risk of going to the 'tanning salon' 2x a week.

              Edit: Fixed some words and grammar.

              [–]edibleangela 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              This is turning out to be more complex.

              コメントをもっと表示する (6 返事)

                [–]ezra_sinclair 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Higher serum levels of vitamin D have been linked to having longer telomeres, but that's a long way from suggesting that more vitamin D in any given person's diet or supplementing it will lead to the telomeres lengthening.

                [–]jayrandez 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                Can telomeres actually be lengthened, or can they only be kept from shortening?

                [–]zdy132 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                I knew the milk is helping me. I will go drink some more.

                コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                  [–]apj0731 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  This. It's likely that the factors that lead to suicide contribute to telomere shortening and not the other way around.

                  [–]gumgum 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  I was going to make this same comment.

                  [–]22Doc22 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  A correlation between the telomere length and stress, but interestingly lower class/unprivileged people have a significantly lower suicide rate compared to mid/upper

                  コメントをもっと表示する (6 返事)

                    [–]LucyLee33 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (12子コメント)

                    At what age the human body is no longer considered biologically young?

                    [–]JR_Shoegazer 32 ポイント33 ポイント  (10子コメント)

                    I've always heard it was around 25 years old.

                    [–]spoonyaardvark 38 ポイント39 ポイント  (7子コメント)

                    Well, looks like I've got a year.

                    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                      コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                        コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                          [–]elfootman 70 ポイント71 ポイント  (8子コメント)

                          What does it mean to have "high mDNA"?

                          [–]gamma9997 54 ポイント55 ポイント  (6子コメント)

                          If you want a literal answer, it just means that when analyzed there's a high concentration of mitochondrial DNA in the sample they took. I don't know whether that means there's more mitochondria in those people, or if they just have more copies of their mitochondrial DNA within their mitochondria. As for what it means (side effects and what not), I have no clue.

                          [–]grifxdonut 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                          i doubt it means that they have more mitochondria, because that would have a huge impact on the cells. high mDNA would most likely be just a large amount of DNA in the mitochondria. It could even mean that the telomeres are significantly longer than the average persons

                          [–]digital_end 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          That's confusing itself though... though there is an element of heredity to suicide. Wonder if the parents/children of them have the same mDNA. Entire lines of mDNA which are like that. Or if it's an abnormality in normal mDNA that changes later in life for individuals.

                          コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                            [–]elfootman 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Oh OK, so just more quantity.

                            コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                              [–]bendvis 624 ポイント625 ポイント  (120子コメント)

                              Interesting. So, as morbid as it is, suicide potentially had an evolutionary benefit?

                              [–]st4n13lMPH | Health 286 ポイント287 ポイント  (10子コメント)

                              That is a much larger question that this study does not even come close to answering. In fact, the paper points out that other studies have linked stress to shortened telomeres and increased mitochondrial DNA so it may not be that individuals are genetically predisposed to having shorter telomeres or excess mitochondrial DNA.

                               

                              It could be that this paper is showing a potential mechanism that explains why stress is related to increased risk of suicide, but that's something I'd love to hear the authors' opinions on.

                              [–]Thirty3Three 68 ポイント69 ポイント  (5子コメント)

                              Was going to say the same. The article is click-bait-y. Stress and depression often go hand-in-hand, also, stress has been shown to decrease telomere length. So...

                              [–]blahblahyaddaydadda 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                              Either you're stressed because you're depressed or you're depressed because your stressed or both.

                              Regardless of what this study shows, I'm gonna go with either of these things being bad for you, regardless how long your telomeres are.

                              [–]Jrook 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                              That doesn't explain the other end of the spectrum though, does it? Old age suicide I mean

                              [–]caffinatedscientist 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              It might be because someone who is enduring large amounts of stress will use more energy than someone without stress, and as mitochondria are the powerhouses of the cell additional mitochondria might be produced to meet the energy demands of the cell that would be higher in someone who is stressed. Alternately, depression is often described as sometimes the lack of energy, which can cause stress if the person is thinking of different things they "should" be doing instead of whatever they are doing, increasing the stress levels and the energy needed by the cells.

                              [–]shariabrown 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Either you're stressed because you're depressed or you're depressed because your stressed or both.

                              I actually think they're both aspects of the same issue. I think stress comes first, but doesn't always necessarily lead to depression. I don't think anyone ever suffered from depression without first being stressed, even if they didn't realise it.

                              コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                [–]TheAquaticApeTheory 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                Wow, thanks for setting that straight! I didn't even think of that.

                                [–]sonordrummer12 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                I think the author's preferred the sexier explanation than simple stress...damn clickbait.

                                コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                                  [–]itsnotthathard 46 ポイント47 ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                  Evolution doesn't necessarily mean that a trait has to beneficial to be passed on.

                                  [–]ratajewie 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                  Exactly. People that don't have a background in biological science fail to realize this all the time. Just because it exists in an animal doesn't mean it was directly advantageous. In these cases, it doesn't even have to be a product of evolution. It can just be an anomaly.

                                  コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                                    [–]vilnius2013PhD | Microbiology[S] 441 ポイント442 ポイント  (53子コメント)

                                    Well, now that's a can of worms.

                                    On the one hand, you could say that the same set of genes that cause people to be depressed (commit suicide) are also linked to creativity. (I'm pretty sure that's been shown.) That could potentially indicate selection. On the other hand, many people don't commit suicide until later in life, after they've had the chance to have children. In that case, there is no selection.

                                    [–]onda-oegat 79 ポイント80 ポイント  (23子コメント)

                                    Couldn't you get some selection if the gene is beneficial when you work and get kids but, show its darker side when you become old?

                                    Like you have genes that make you love children ( in the right way) but when you get old you don't play with kids as often an become depressed.

                                    [–]dkysh 97 ポイント98 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    Exactly this is studied here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-016-0055?TB_iframe=true&width=921.6&height=921.6

                                    It is called antagonistic pleiotropy. It means the same allele/mutation affects two diseases, one in a protective way and one in a deleterious way, and, sometimes, these diseases happen at different moments in life (young age vs old age).

                                    [–]jpkoushel 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (20子コメント)

                                    There is no selection because when that trait emerges you have already reproduced and passed down the genes.

                                    [–]morsk 83 ポイント84 ポイント  (13子コメント)

                                    Selection does not stop until everyone who shares your genes is dead. It's called kin selection. Anything that helps your kin survive and reproduce might be selected for.

                                    [–]SexLiesAndExercise 33 ポイント34 ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                    Yep. Basically if one group of humans have a gene that causes them to wander off into the woods before they get old and difficult to look after, their tribe might have a better chance of surviving than another tribe without that gene.

                                    No evidence for this, though.

                                    [–]issius 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                    Or the opposite. Parents who stop caring for their children as teenagers so the children may still survive but have less chance at reproducing due to incomplete development. It's sort of a difficult thing to prove or disprove, but still interesting.

                                    Makes you think... what if earth is an experiment for a specific type of genetics and someone just wants to see how a certain trait works out.

                                    [–]grifxdonut 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                    well thats why they are bred out. in some situations you will be right but in others sexliesandexercise will be right. It just depends. if there is a low amount of food in the environment, then having their members wander into the wild would be good because it controls the population and makes sure that they do not overconsume and cause everyone to die

                                    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                      [–]sgmctabnxjs 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                      But ensuring the continued success of your family is a factor.

                                      コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                        [–]donrane 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        There is still selection even after you had kids because you cant help your kids have more kids when your brain is on the ceiling.

                                        [–]Yerwun 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (24子コメント)

                                        Not many people, but some. Suicide isn't rare in older people, but it's most common in younger people.

                                        [–]fitzroy95 57 ポイント58 ポイント  (22子コメント)

                                        what does your "younger" mean ?

                                        Suicide in the USA by age and gender

                                        by far the majority there are 35-55, with men being much higher. Which is pretty much the definition for "middle age", and even "mid-life crisis"

                                        [–]Aiognim 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (18子コメント)

                                        I am actually surprised the number was only 32,533 suicides.

                                        I wonder how many people really want to.

                                        [–]fitzroy95 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (17子コメント)

                                        Lots do think about it, most either never rise to the level of actually attempting suicide, or else can't find an easily accessible method that looks quick/painless/whatever, then they often get over it.

                                        Not necessarily that the feeling of depression always disappears, but the desire to actually attempt suicide will lift, or they will find a reason to not go ahead. This is more prevalent in women, who are often more concerned about things such as who might find their body and decide not to because of that.

                                        [–]NotMyProblemWoman 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                        This is more prevalent in women, who are often more concerned about things such as who might find their body and decide not to because of that.

                                        Huh, interesting. Do you have a source I could read?

                                        [–]fitzroy95 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                        There seem to be (i.e. indicated but not necessarily proven) a number of factors here

                                        Clues reveal why men and women may choose different suicide methods

                                        Men were almost twice as likely as women to use a method that disfigured their face or head. Several theories have been given for this phenomenon: that women are more concerned with their physical appearance, even in death; that women aren't as familiar with guns as men are; and that women don't want to upset their loved ones who might find their disfigured bodies.

                                        Why are men more likely than women to take their own lives?

                                        One theory is that men are more intent on dying. Whether this is true remains to be proven, but there is some evidence to back up the idea. For example, one study of 4,415 patients admitted to hospital in Oxford following an episode of self-harm found that men reported significantly higher levels of suicidal intent than women.

                                        Another hypothesis focuses on impulsivity – the tendency to act without properly thinking through the consequences. Men are, on the whole, more likely to be impulsive than women. Perhaps this leaves them vulnerable to rash, spur-of-the-moment suicidal behaviour.

                                        The third theory is that, even in their choice of suicide method, males and females act out culturally prescribed gender roles. Thus women will opt for methods that preserve their appearance, and avoid those that cause facial disfigurement.

                                        and by avoiding facial disfigurement, may be choosing less lethal forms of suicide attempts (poison/overdose etc), hence increasing the likelihood of their survival compared to men.

                                        which is why US firearm suicide statistics are so interesting, because that is the ultimate in "impulsive" options. Its all over in the time it takes to grab the nearest firearm and takes no planning or preparation. and 50% of all suicides in the USA are by firearm, and by far the majority are men.

                                        • Men die by suicide 3.5x more often than women.

                                        • White males accounted for 7 of 10 suicides in 2015.

                                        • Firearms account for almost 50% of all suicides.

                                        • The rate of suicide is highest in middle age—white men in particular.

                                        [–]Eacheure 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                        I think when a person demands sources they should be able to compensate the person who finds the source with reddit silver. Cuz if you have the tenacity to ask, without first searching on your own first, you're just being a buggeroo.

                                        コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                          [–]Ktaily 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          Honestly, I'm inclined to believe it is at least semi common. A reason I never seriously attempted suicide is because I never wanted to place that burden on the person who would find me who would likely be family. I also felt I would hurt them by leaving that way so I could never bring myself to do it. (I'm no longer in that depressed state fortunately)

                                          [–]Meg-a-nerd 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                          I remember reading once that men just succeed more often because they are more likely to use a gun whereas women tend to opt for pills or suffocation thinking it will be like going to sleep. (Not leaving a mess may also be a factor, many women are taught not to "make a fuss" and that concept is ground in pretty deep) So the women have a better chance of failing or being saved, but a gun is usually very final.

                                          On my tablet atm but I can look for it later.

                                          [–]old_user_handle 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                          I'll just add to the conversation that there's a much greater stigma against mental health problems in men compared to women in U.S. culture. For men, that means there's incentive to keep from becoming "that guy who tried to kill himself", which may lead to choosing much more effective methods. Women also typically have larger support circles, which again, are more supportive of mental health issues, compared to men, at least in many Western societies.

                                          [–]radome9 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          And there's a stigma against men getting help - for anything. Men are supposed to be tough and self-reliant. Makes it hard to ask for help with feelings.

                                          コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                            コメントをもっと表示する (5 返事)

                                              [–]Yerwun 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                              Huh, I knew the US had a high middle-age suicide rate, but I didn't know it was that high. In my country, younger people are most at risk.

                                              コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                                [–]Fallingdamage 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                And to say those who commit suicide have 'abnormalities'.. its a word that usually paints a negative view of the persons health.

                                                Perhaps overly intelligent people see more about this world than normal or average people, and thus end up with a different perspective about life than average or normal people.

                                                Ive heard it said that with great knowledge comes great sorrows, so be careful what you seek. Perhaps the same goes for creative people with lots of intuition. They see through the bullshit, but are still trapped to repeat it every day with people who live in a much smaller cognitive bubble and could care less about the problems they cant see.

                                                And older people; maybe with time and wisdom, combined with good 'ol depression, they reason that there is really no point to keeping up the race anymore.

                                                If you have time, read up on Martin Manley. He was a professional sports statistician who committed suicide on his 60th birthday. He did so after more than a decade of contemplating it and reasoning it out with himself. Not some knee-jerk decision after maybe a month or two of severe depression like some do.

                                                http://martin-manley.eprci.com/

                                                "I think it is fair to say that I owe you (assuming "you" are someone that I know) an explanation. It's unfair to rob someone of something they love or even like or even know without an explanation. Having said that, you also owe me. You owe me the time it takes to understand why I did what I did without prejudging. I've done my part. The rest is up to you. If you opt to not read it, then I'm tempted to say "You can't handle the truth!"... but won't."

                                                "Lastly, at some point in reading this site you would have asked whether I was ultimately satisfied with my life, so I decided this was the best place to address it. I suspect nobody is completely satisfied and I'm no different. No, I wasn't fully satisifed with my life, but I was fully satisfied with my death!"

                                                コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                                                  [–]Yerwun 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                  Possibly. Or well, depression could. Certainly, the ability to feel intense negative emotion is necessary for survival. Depression and suicide occur when these emotions and thoughts go on too long and generally get out of hand. There is no distinct line between 'depressed' and 'not depressed' - it's a spectrum.

                                                  So it could be more like, the ability to store fat is vital for survival. But that doesn't mean it isn't possible to get so fat that it's bad for you or can kill you.

                                                  [–]cyphrrr 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                  Depression has a strong correlation to systemic inflammation. Systemic inflammation causes higher cell turnover rate, higher cell turnover rate leads to shortened telomeres. A bit of a stretch but that's my theory.

                                                  [–]berkdrums 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                  I can't cite for shit, but I remember reading a Time article about the whether humans were hard wired for optimism. IIRC it suggested that humans with depression are a little more realistic in their decision making because they have less bias towards a beneficial outcome/infallible ego. Basically I agree that suicide is too much of the 'cautious' gene that spawns depression, but to the point where we're so overly-cautious that we decide life itself isn't worth the risk. To anyone reading this: I am not a scientist.

                                                  [–]ThePiemaster 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                  ...the ability to feel intense negative emotion is necessary for survival.

                                                  Maybe at some point. Now it's extremely detrimental. Nobody wants to date a Sad.

                                                  [–]christiun 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                  As far as the young people go wouldn't a shorter overall human lifespan help all humans in the long run?

                                                  I only bring up this point because I live in japan where suicide in more common than in the US where I'm from. And we always have a debate about how the older people get the resources they consume. If they lived shorter lives (I know everyone wasn't to live forever) there would be more resources for everyone else.

                                                  So if these young people are killing themselves before they pass the genes doesn't that hurt everyone in the long run?

                                                  [–]NosemaCeranae 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                  So far as I can tell, we can't see from this data whether depression or short telomeres came first in young people or excess mitochondrial DNA in older people. Either of these might result from the stress associated with chronic depression.

                                                  [–]Tron9510 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                  How is that?

                                                  [–]glassyjoe1 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                  No, this would be the variation that "tests" evolution. The way evolution works is a species with have some level of genetic diversity and if one of these "deviant" traits results in a more fit individual, that individual will be more likely to pass the trait on. This is simply the random variance of life that strengthens a species through trial and error.

                                                  [–]jfedoga 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                  Seems like to make that kind of argument you'd need to demonstrate that the observed patterns of suicide here cross cultures, which may not be true. Suicide is pretty culturally-bound (triggered by everything from honor/duty to external pressures to mental illness, which is itself culturally-bound) and there are societies, like the Pirahã in the Amazon, where suicide doesn't exist. It may well be an interplay of culture and genetics, but that doesn't mean it's an evolutionary benefit.

                                                  [–]spaghettificati0n 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                  So we're basically destined to die so that humanity can progress?

                                                  If it did have an evolutionary benefit, would the rates of suicide be decreasing?

                                                  [–]serene_green 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                  It's important to keep in mind that the entity which is selected for is the gene, not the species. Suicide would have to somehow benefit direct relatives more than it disadvantages the host (kin selection) to be an adaptation. You would be hard pressed to find any such benefit.

                                                  Stress and disease in general are associated with shortened telomeres so I would hazard to speculate cause and effect are pointing the other way.

                                                  コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                                                    [–]zombie_JFK 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                    It might benefit the community, but something that ends a genetic line is never an evolutionary benefit

                                                    コメントをもっと表示する (16 返事)

                                                      [–]theducker 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                      Maybe I'm totally off base here, but isn't stress (or possibly even mutli-generational stress) linked to premature telemere shortening?

                                                      [–]RockyDify 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                      Shortened telomeres are associated with childhood stress

                                                      [–]SapphoTalk 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                      What causes an increase in mitochondrial DNA and what are other potential side effects of it?

                                                      [–]bartekxx12 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                      Does this mean the young people who tried to commit suicide, but failed or were found and saved, are likely to die at below average age anyway?

                                                      [–]Mr_Sharkey 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                      Ok. But I guess the question is, how do short chromosomal telomeres or excess mitochondrial DNA translate into the eventual behavior of taking your own life?

                                                      [–]d3boy2002 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                      Apparently, telomerase release (an enzyme that is used to repair the telomeres) is related to social support and social interaction? And there is currently no drug we can take that can release telomerase? I haven't looked up the mechanisms, but my professor mentioned this in our lectures.

                                                      [–]aristotelianrobGrad Student | Biochemistry and Molecular Biology 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                      Telomerase reverse transcriptase (the catalytic subunit of telomerase) is actually re-activated in a number of different cancers, such as melanoma. This is not good. When your telomeres don't shorten and you have another 'hit' in your cell lineage, you go from normal cell death to malignant growth. Telomerase shouldn't be active too much in 'normal' cells.

                                                      [–]SapphoTalk 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                      So if we figure out how to prevent malignant cell growth, could we live forever with telomerase?

                                                      [–]aristotelianrobGrad Student | Biochemistry and Molecular Biology 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                      That's a big part of the aging field of study. I don't know if they've given up hope on telomerase or not. But, theoretically, yeah.

                                                      コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                                        [–]Focusi 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                        Look up vitamin D and telomeres

                                                        [–]grifxdonut 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                        im not that well versed in biology, but i was told that telomerases are only active when we are developing. And that cancer has their telomerases active, so they are able to "never die of old age" or whatever the technical term is

                                                        コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                                          [–]babbles-bobbles 40 ポイント41 ポイント  (18子コメント)

                                                          Just an FYI, it's best practice to call it "completing suicide" or "dying by suicide". This helps remove the possible connection of the word commit with the legal term "commit a crime". I just did a whole workshop on suicide prevention and this was really interesting and thought provoking information.

                                                          [–]himegs 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                          Thank you for this info! Being more aware of our vocabulary and changing the wording definitely changes the connotation in a big way.

                                                          [–]tsaoutofourpants 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                                          Why? Are we trying to make suicide seem less negative?

                                                          [–]glug_glug_glug 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                          The act is negative, but its more to avoid speaking ill of the dead. "Commit" sounds like they have low sense of morals like those that would "commit" crimes.

                                                          [–]SuperSocrates 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                          It needs to be destigmatized so that people considering it will know that it's okay to get help and not think they have to keep everything inside.

                                                          [–]jonfelethoth 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                          If we actually want to encourage people considering it to get help, we need to review our policies of mandatory reporting. The bar needs to be higher than it currently is. As it stands currently, I would never EVER tell a medical professional anything regarding suicidal ideation since it could mean an involuntary psychiatric hold. That would be absolutely terrible in the short term and has the potential for far-reaching consequences as well.

                                                          I know that the actual guidelines are "posing a danger to yourself/others" but that language leaves way too much wiggle room, to the point where it seems prudent to err on the side of caution and stay silent.

                                                          I'm not advocating that others think along the same lines, but this is how I feel. Disclaimer: I currently do not have any suicidal thoughts or desires and don't pose a danger to myself or others.

                                                          [–]iamnemo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                          Couldn't agree more. Its very difficult to attempt to get help if you are afraid you are going to get locked up. All I wanted to do was talk to someone and tell them how I was feeling , but the fear of losing control of my life and getting chained to a bed for 72 hours prevented that. It took a long time to find someone I could trust to help me.

                                                          コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                                            コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                                              コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                                                [–]amphoe 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                Theres a key difference between people who have suicidal thoughts and people who actually do it. This study focuses only on people that go through with suicide.

                                                                [–]carlsonbjj 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                Lithium seems to lengthen telomeres: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23695236

                                                                [–]powercow 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                I read the telomeres are responsible for some of the effects of aging, that as cells make copies your telomeres get shorter and thats when the problems occur... probably a little off on that

                                                                but my question is what happens to these folks if they dont commit suicide? do they have early age issues? wrinkles and other degregations? do they tend to die young anyways?

                                                                [–]ghost_sanctum 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                Just when I thought my existential angst couldn't get any worse.

                                                                [–]name76 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                It's more likely that the lifestyles of people who commit suicide leading up to it cause the telomers to shorten.

                                                                There have been studies that stress, bad diet, and lack of exercise shorten telomers, and that is how suicidal people live.

                                                                [–]prosperpines 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                So when do we develop transplants for chromosomal telomeres??

                                                                (Just kidding, I know there's no hope :))

                                                                [–]ajfirecracker 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                Do people who don't commit suicide have genetic abnormalities too? This seems like noise (from a layperson's perspective)

                                                                [–]IssaDubro 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                What would having really low amounts of mtDNA mean?

                                                                Usually the amount is low in the elderly so that's strange some elderly have "excess" mtDNA.

                                                                At least if there is a physical reason, people might stop saying "oh it's the coward's way out." There is a lot about emotional distress and mental illness that aren't understood. Some data points to it being connected to other systems besides the brain.

                                                                [–]IssaDubro 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                Would antibiotic therapy help people in this risk group? I've read that some medications including antibiotics can adversely impact the quantity of mtDNA. Aging is another common reason for a low amount of mtDNA.

                                                                [–]tsaoutofourpants 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                A contrary piece of anecdotal info: antibiotics often reduce the beneficial bacteria in your GI tract, and GI problems have been linked to depression.

                                                                [–]splice_of_life 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                What in the world is "excess DNA" supposed to mean?

                                                                [–]grifxdonut 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                excess DNA is supposed to mean high mDNA, meaning those people had statistically higher amounts of mitochondrial DNA in their cells than the average person

                                                                [–]Patrick750 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                The shortening of telomeres on a chromosome usually happens over time as your cells divide. The theory is that each time your cell divides, your telomeres get shortened which leads to them having a lesser effect on repairing your organs and other cells. It's partly the reason humans cant live forever. It's interesting that even for young people, shortened telomeres leads to death just like it does in older people.

                                                                [–]mcm001 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                Does this mean that these potential genetic suicide triggers make you more likely to have depression (which is as I understand a big factor in suicide)

                                                                [–]pirateninjamonkey 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                Short chromosomal telomeres are often the result of a stressful or unhealthy life....maybe like someone would have that wants to kill themselves?

                                                                [–]minupiter 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                "Like other diseases, mental illness appears to be a visible manifestation of molecular abnormalities." That, right there.

                                                                コメントをもっと表示する (84 返事)