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Brigade TargetVenezuela protesters set fire to Supreme Court building (telegraph.co.uk)

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[–]rockthechopper 53 ポイント54 ポイント  (33子コメント)

What exactly do the Venezuelan people want? Like, how do they want the country to be run? I've heard people on here say that they're far-right nationalist types, but all of the media coverage seems to focus on the violence and the tactics, so it's hard to find out what their actual goals are.

[–]big_al11 57 ポイント58 ポイント  (21子コメント)

The opinion polls show they basically want social democracy (*rolls eyes). A bit like they had in the mid 2000s. The problem is the oil price has collapsed, Chavez died and a bunch of inept and corrupt people replaced him, the US and the opposition have stepped up their campaign of destabilization and many of Venezuela's friends have fallen (Paraguay, Argentina, Brazil).

EDIT: To follow up on that social democracy point I made, the data comes from Hellinger, D. (2011) “Defying the Iron Law of Oligarchy I. How does 'El Pueblo' Conceive Democracy?” in Smidle, D. and Hellinger, D. Venezuela's Bolivarian democracy: participation, politics, and culture under Chavez, Durham: Duke University Press.

The public were asked what are the most important things in defining a good society or something like that and then there was a long list of choices ad you could pick 3 and the top 3 chosen were "that the state guarantee education and health for everyone" "That all social sectors are included and enjoy the same rights" and "that the system of justice treat all citizens equally."

They were also asked how businesses should be run. One was a "generic textile factory" and the choices were:

"By their own efficient professionals" 18%

"By professionals designated by the Executive (country’s president)" 10%

"Through participation by professionals and workers" (German style model) 53%

"Only by workers" 18%

Only 20% of working class respondants chose worker ownership and depressingly, when the question was rephrased to be not about generic companies but well-known companies in the country, the amount choosing worker ownership dropped to only 6%. Thus it seems clear the population want a Northern-European style social democracy.

EDIT 2 I just want to add that if you are implying (and I don't know if you are) that the protestors=the people that would be dead wrong. A recent poll found 87% of the population to be against them.

[–]OneReportersOpinion 37 ポイント38 ポイント  (10子コメント)

The opinion polls show they basically want social democracy (*rolls eyes).

Meh I can't fault people for wanting to restore what they had under Chavez. It's hard to expect people to go further when they haven't maximized what they can achieve with the existing institutions. When that occurs I bet you will see the numbers supporting worker's control go up.

[–]big_al11 57 ポイント58 ポイント  (9子コメント)

I'm bashing social democracy but if I lived in social democracy I wouldn't have a crippling student debt, rents would be cheaper so I could afford a decent home, there would be grants for study, there wouldn't be 0 hours contracts so I could get paid a decent amount teaching so I wouldn't be moonlighting 28 hours a week at a fliiping bowling alley etc etc etc. My life would be drastically better under social democracy.

[–]We_Are_The_Waiting 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I feel like it would be kinda great. I dont think im even going to college, i dont know how my life will turn out. If i lived under social democracy i probably wouldnt be an anarchist.

[–]jbastardov 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Venezuela lived 40 years of bipartidism between a social-democratic party and a social-christian one. All they did was promote neoliberalism, corruption, populism and in the end it lead us to this current disaster.

I guess the problem was the kind of "social-democracy" that that one party turned into. The other party being no better. But they controlled so much of the political life in the country that no other party had any chance of winning ever, 'cept for one small time when a syndicalist came pretty close (some even say he won but his victory was stolen).

The Left never came to be united enough to present a decent program to win back the people at the polls, all the opposite they got more and more broken as the years passed, until they finally decided to unite under Chávez when there was no other option left.

[–]tschwib 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

There are plenty of anarchist / socialist in Germany though which is currently doing well enough as a social-democracy.

[–]We_Are_The_Waiting 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh yeah, social democracy isnt at all perfect. Just saying that a lot of the reasons i am an anarchist would be gone.

[–]OneReportersOpinion 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well said. And then yeah, condemn the social democrats as counter-revolutionary incrementalists.

[–]Rev1917-2017Death to all who stand in the way of freedom for working people 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah Social Democracy isn't good enough, but it's a hell of a lot better than what we have in the States.

[–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]theltrtducktranarchist 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    So, feel better now that you've insulted someone who'd expressed that they're struggling? Did that make you feel good?

    [–]creepycraigLibertarian Socialist 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (8子コメント)

    Social Democracy is sure as hell a step above what most countries currently have, but it's a damn shame no one's persuading them to push for anarchist ideals.

    [–]jbastardov 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    You don't persuade people into anarchism, at least that's not a word I would choose, as an anarchist.

    [–]Morningred7 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Can you explain?

    [–]FrankiebaRevolutionary Abolitionism 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Persuading implies some kind of coercion, which anarchists stand firmly against. In my opinion, you provide people with information and if they are sensible, they'll arrive at anarchism on their own.

    [–]smoothstone2002Where are the Trotskyists? 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I was given info and arrived at leninism. Please help, my disorderly and infantile left-wing communist friends.

    [–]jbastardov 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I see the word "persuasion" as having negative connotations regarding presenting anarchism to people. You can show, demonstrate, educate, teach and experience anarchism, but persuasion can be intrusive, manipulative and deceitful regarding how you plan to use it.

    [–]creepycraigLibertarian Socialist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Now, when you say persuade, are you specifically referring to debating non anarchists? Because I've also heard some people on here endorsing community service, like the anarchists in Portland (iirc) that went around fixing potholes.

    [–]jbastardov 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I'm specifically referring to the act of persuading a non-anarchist, trying hard on "winning them over" for the anarchist idea while being deceitful. That is want persuasion sounds and means for me.

    [–]creepycraigLibertarian Socialist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Fair enough. I want to say we have different definitions of persuasion, but I suppose it depends on what you consider deceitful. The most deceitful thing I'd consider doing is sell people on anarchism without calling it anarchism. I think it might be necessary, but I won't deny a certain amount of deceit there. Maybe actions, like community service, speak louder than words.

    [–]TotesMessenger 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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    [–]big-butts-no-liesAnti-obscurantist Action 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    More or less the only thing they agree on is that the current government is inept, corrupt, and brutal and needs to be deposed. The easiest policy change they could make is to abandon their god-awful currency policy and just start using US dollars or Brazilian rials.

    Part of the problem with the protests is there's a clear left-right divide that's also substantially a class divide. The Right and the middle and upper classes blame the crisis on "socialism" as such, and want to institute neoliberal reforms. The Left and lower class want to defend the social democratic programs of the old Chavez government but also oppose the current government for being corrupt and inept.

    [–]jbastardov 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This is correct. Although there are leftist organizations hat have never supported Chávez original project, since it has been never socialist and radical enough to change some of the deepest and biggest problems in the country, like our dependency on a capitalist rentist oil-based economy.

    [–]DeLaProle 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Your mistake is in conflating the protesters with "the Venezuelan people". People in Venezuela are the same as people everywhere; they comprise of different classes, groups, etc. with differing interests. They are divided in other words. The PSUV has support because of the social programs enacted under them (programs which deserve to be defended) and have had, or their ideological compatriots/predecessors (eg MVR) have had support since 2000 having been democratically elected.

    However unlike in previous years the failure of reformism is really beginning to bite the PSUV. In 2015 they finally lost their majority in the National Assembly to an anti-Chavez alliance of over a dozen groups formed in 2008 precisely because the PSUV was so popular. So now you have a greater division between Chavistas and the opposition. Economic problems have made this situation worse, exacerbated by, as I said, reformism and the attempt to reconcile capitalism and socialism (with predictable reaction by capital to make the situation worse). The opposition consists of liberals and reactionaries who have been staging demonstrations for a few years now. They are taking advantage of economic turmoil occurring especially recently to try force a recall referendum against Maduro. This didn't really work out like they wanted so some are attempting to use violence as a provocation to get good pictures/videos to show the western media (the violent wing of the opposition are experts at this) hoping it will give them leverage to put pressure on Maduro to step down which, barring something dramatic, will not happen considering there is an election next year.

    edit:...and like clockwork here comes the clowns from drama subs as well as those who never post here but coincidentally seem to find every post about Venezuela. To the latter: I don't give a fuck about your anecdotes. They are worthless. You can keep pretending that only you and your kind represent all Venezuelans, and that division and PSUV/GPP supporters do not exist (or are all paid officials) but we both know that's a lie.

    [–]rstcp 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Agree with most of this except

    This didn't really work out like they wanted

    to be clear, it didn't work out because the government actively blocked this democratic avenue. Lots of protesters aren't really 'liberal' or 'regressive' but mostly just heavily opposed to the blatant corruption and policies like the currency controls which are very obviously used to line the pockets of those in the government inner circle while there are electricity, medicine, and food shortages. MUD remains pretty unpopular and divided, but the situation is now so dire that people unite just in desperation.

    [–]jbastardov 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Depends on who you asks. Although the State's media and their replicators choose the present the protesters all as right-wing activists, that's far from the truth.

    As a representation of most of the political parties that are grouped in the MUD, some of the principal promoters of the manifestations, these people support a return to social-democracy and a socialist agenda as seen in Europe, so their goal a washed-out version of what Bernie intended for the US. They are also supported by liberals and social-christians.

    You have leftist claiming for a true workers-oriented socialism. Trots, MLs, Chavistas that don't support Maduro's Government and other socialists and communists. They stand against the current government and the social-democratic MUD.

    The current Government appropriation of a "socialist" discourse and its oppressive actions has had a great backslash of said ideals on the ideology of some part of the population, specially young people that have mostly grown up under this same government for the past 17 years. This has led a rise in right-libertarian/liberal-libertarian ideals, with numerous groups forming around the idea of capitalist libertarianism and classical liberalism. Liberal participate alongside the social-democrats, the libertarians stand against the government, the opposition centered in the MUD and anything that has any relation with socialist ideals.

    The same "leftists" discourse has also led to the proliferation and establishment of nationalists organizations. They claim for a complete reformation of the State structure, don't believe in elections, and praise the military memory of the country, alongside past dictators like Marcos Perez Jimenez. They share some common points with the right-libertarians, and as such stand against anything that has a socialist root, the current government and the MUD-centered political opposition.

    Anarchists aspire for anarchism, no State and specifically an end to the country's Presidential centered-power and rotten representative democracy.

    Finally, for the broad spectrum, you have people manifesting without a clear objective of what the future government should actually be, many protesters have no expertise in specific political, social and economical theories or ideology, they just want things to work better, for their wage to be sufficient to be able to maintain their families and stuff like that.

    [–]big_al11 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    I just want to add that if you are implying (and I don't know if you are) that the protestors=the people that would be dead wrong. A recent poll found 87% of the population to be against them.

    [–]willmaster123 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    That source is also pro Venezuelan government source. Like literally run by them.

    Nice try tho

    [–]big_al11 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm gonna copy and paste my response to a previous one here:

    Does anyone know anything about Venezuela or are they just blindly upvoting demonstrably false nonsense!?

    Hinterlaces is an opposition-aligned private polling company in Venezuela and has been for decades.

    Even the hardcore opposition activists at Caracas Chronciles accept and champion this! Caracas Chronicles' founder and editor said this: "Schemel [Hinterlaces' owner] is an opposition pollster, no question about it". He goes on to talk about how Hinterlaces' methodology always overestimates the anti-government side and downplays the pro-government side.

    So what you just said is akin to someone in America saying "we all know we can't trust a FOX news survey because they're hardcore leftists". And the people of /r/anarchism have upvoted this reactionary nonsensical shit to +8. Hinterlaces is not owned by the government. It is owned by someone who opposed the government with every fibre of his being.

    I mean, give me some sort of credit, I was deliberately giving everyone polls from opposition-aligned pollsters so there could be no doubt. I could have given you the chavista-aligned polls which show an even greater story but I didn't because I knew it'd be a stronger argument using opposition figures. But it doesn't matter! The opposition polls have been magically turned into government polls. And absolutely nobody is giving me the slightest hint of credit and that I might actually know something about the country and am not just some lying shill.

    So, to your point: either you are consciously lying to the community or you haven't the first idea about what Venezuela is like. Either way, you shouldn't be commenting. And I'm pretty dissappointed in /r/anarchism for not simply googling hinterlaces to find that out.

    [–]RochelleH 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Did you really just link to La Iguana, as though it were some kind of reputable news source?

    TIL Anarchists support government-run news agencies. Why not just link to Telesur and make it a home run? Fucking LOL. This sub is a fucking joke.

    [–]testudosmith 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    They want to have fair elections.

    One where everyone has a single vote, and the person with the most votes wins. One where you are not forced to vote for some hand picked lackey.

    Fair elections are something that the government has refused to have ever since they cancelled them in December 2016.

    They USED to have fair elections, in the time period before the current ones got cancelled, but not anymore.

    [–]big_al11 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (33子コメント)

    Those protesters are absolutely psychotic. Listen to what happened when Abby Martin met them (esp from about 58mins in)

    [–]DeLaProle 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (20子コメント)

    Yeah you don't have to be a Chavista to understand that these people do not represent a progressive force. The level of success their campaign has had on redditors who love to fawn over them should arouse some suspicion. The same people who literally wish death on BLM protesters for blocking traffic then go on to celebrate those who are doing the same but in a much more violent fashion. Here are some setting fire to a fuel tanker in the middle of the highway with the driver in it.

    [–]thehudgeful 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This is one of the top comments in r/worldnews

    Good God, what a bloodbath.

    I'd like to remind people that however violent these citizens may act, many modern democratic states were forged through their own violent uprisings. France, the USA, Italy, Ireland, etc

    And yet when black people try to do the same without violence, it's suddenly a problem. We can pay lip service to their cause but not their methods. Fuck people like this.

    [–]RochelleH 39 ポイント40 ポイント  (10子コメント)

    Hello. I've been going to Venezuela every 2 months for the last 10 years. Sometimes I even take antibiotics, diapers, and personal hygiene products in for friends that can't get them. Friends who have been shot for their 15 year old cars, friends that have lost children due to malnutrition and inadequate healthcare. Venezuela has been an absolute shitstorm for a very long time, and it has nothing to do with elitists or "people that wish death on BLM protestors" (Wuuut? Most of Venezuela is indigenous or mulato at best, ffs). It has everything to do with shitty ass, statist, protectionist economic policy, with industry nationalised more and more over time by a government that ransacked it and didn't know how to run it, and ran it all into the ground. Add the reliance on oil and complete inability to self sustain, and it's a complete clusterfuck.

    The things you are saying and straight out lies you are telling in the name of an ideology and narrative you so desperately seek to uphold in your own mind while enjoying living in a capitalist society yourself, are absolutely direspectful to anyone living in Venezuela. You are a disgusting person.

    [–]blueoysterpulp 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    As a Venezuelan, I support what you're saying.

    [–]Minerface -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (8子コメント)

    Care to elaborate? You're not making much of a good argument here.

    [–]RochelleH 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    I don't need to. You're wrong about the kind of people you proclaim are anti-government; in their political inclinations, their socio-economic group, and ethnicity. Dude, the rich or whatever burgeouise you are eluding to left Venezuela a very fucking long time ago... Venezuela was already fucked in 2008. Ex-Chavistas have definitely shifted over to being anti-government; watch the public interviewed for yourself. Watch the kinds of people the military and tupamaros are robbing in their own houses and neighbourhoods. I don't know if you speak Spanish, but you can dispel it pretty quickly for yourself on Youtube and through news sources...

    [–]Minerface 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    But you realize there are actual anti-government protestors doing bad things, right? Not to say the government is any better, just pointing it out.

    [–]RochelleH 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Here in Latin America, where there are protests against the government (or even pro-government), there are always fuckwits that take advantage of the situation to loot and vandalise. Last week, some fucking morons set fire to the Ministry of Agriculture here... for no reason whatsoever. Back to Venezuela, though, you've got to understand that the government in Venezuela finances vigilante groups (tupamaros, have a look on youtube) and they are literally paid thugs. The military are also paid thugs that steal from and blackmail their own people. They steal food, medicine, phones, money. This is also readily available on youtube, from already very poor areas of the city. The military is fed well and enacts Maduro's will because it keeps them fed well... for now. They have now resorted to stealing from government food supplies and selling on the black market to their own.

    The Guarda Nacional de Venezuela are gangbangers, are routinely violent towards their own even outside of the protest context. They cannot be trusted. They may not have always been that way, but since Chavez' second mandate, at least, they have been... and frankly, it's by necessity. It's the only job that will ensure you get fed and paid in Venezuela today.

    [–]Minerface -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Ah, no true protestor. I understand there are a few bad apples, but the bad apples had/have political motivations that they use to justify their actions. I'm not generalizing all the anti-government protestors, I'm saying that a few bad apples still represent a fraction of the anti-government persons. And it doesn't seem like the violence is going to die down from either side, so clearly the opposition isn't trying to exclude the violent protestors from their rallies.

    [–]jbastardov 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    so clearly the opposition isn't trying to exclude the violent protestors from their rallies.

    You read Spanish? You can easily find news/posts regarding some of the opposition political personalities grouped in the MUD denouncing the violent acts during protest, against individuals and institutions, opinions that have actually been met with harsh criticism from a side of the general public that denounce that the MUD is not radical enough in their political agenda and actually seek to perpetuate an state on dual-power between the Government and a "soft" condescending opposition.

    So, at least for some, they have tried, but the people just had enough, and them some narrow-minded take advantage to do some awful stuff.

    [–]RochelleH 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Dude definitely doesn't read Spanish. He's an expert on Venezuelan affairs through Reddit-selected sources that support his own narrative to excuse his own shitty life. He doesn't actually need to be able to hear any vox pop or opinions from average Venezuelans that usually don't speak English; i.e. the proletariat that he believes he knows so well.

    The best bit is when these idiots think they know left and right in countries besides the U.S., as though the "right" or "left" is somehow calibrated to the U.S.' definition. Ironically parochial, and embarassingly ignorant, considering they believe themselves to somehow know the struggle of those in these countries, yet don't even have their political barometers calibrated.

    [–]Minerface -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Still, that doesn't excuse the violence. I could use the same argument but in a pro-government manner.

    [–]Skirtsmoother 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Sorry, the narrative I've picked up from lurking here is that these people were ''The People''. I've actually seen this sub praising them. What happened?

    [–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–]Skirtsmoother 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

      I'm not sure I understand this response. So, are these guys anarchists or neo-fascists?

      [–]RochelleH 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      They're angry children desperately looking for a cause to belong to, and have appropriated other people's struggles as though they are somehow remotely comparable to their first world ones. Hey, whatever makes for good Facebook statuses and talk over soy lattes, I guess.

      [–]jbastardov 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Protesters are conformed of social-democratics, social-christians, liberals, progressive centrists, right-libertarians, nationalists, marxist-leninists, trotskyists, anarchists and a good chunk of people that do identify with any political ideology in particular and plainly just want a better living.

      Note that not all of this groups, for obvious reasons, are protesting together, and some have different views and objectives in mind, yet they all stand against the government.

      [–]jbastardov 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Stalinism happened

      [–]big_al11 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Oh, they've been capturing black passers-by and burning them alive, as you can watch in these videos (nsfl). They're white nationalists.

      [–]testudosmith 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (10子コメント)

      Are we really worried about a little property damage, when the government is literally about to get rid of fair elections? It already cancelled the elections for state governors that was supposed to happen in december 2016.

      That is what the constitution changes are about. They are getting rid of 1 person 1 vote, and only allowing you to vote for their appointed stooges.

      This is what a revolution looks like. When you get rid of fair elections, you shouldn't be surprised when people rebel.

      [–]big_al11 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (8子コメント)

      LOL property damage?!

      How about bombing a maternity hospital forcing 50 newborn babies to be evacuated? How about going around trying to find black people then capturing them, stabbing them 6 times, dousing them in petrol and burning them to a crisp video NSFL while screaming racial abuse at him? How about dousing journalists with petrol and attempting to burn them alive? How about shooting journalists?

      These people are Pinochet-style fascists, that's why 87% of the population are against them.

      If you think these guys are progressive revolutionaries you've been reading too much New York Times.

      [–]willmaster123 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Once again, the 87% statistic is from a pro government poll. Literally run by the government. It's fake.

      [–]big_al11 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Does anyone know anything about Venezuela or are they just blindly upvoting demonstrably false nonsene!?

      Hinterlaces is an opposition-aligned private polling company in Venezuela and has been for decades.

      Even the hardcore opposition activists at Caracas Chronciles accept and champion this! Caracas Chronicles' founder and editor said this: "Schemel [Hinterlaces' owner] is an opposition pollster, no question about it". He goes on to talk about how Hinterlaces' methodology always overestimates the anti-government side and downplays the pro-government side.

      So what you just said is akin to someone in America saying "we all know we can't trust a FOX news survey because they're hardcore leftists". And the people of /r/anarchism have upvoted this reactionary nonsensical shit to +15. Hinterlaces is not owned by the government. It is owned by someone who opposed the government with every fibre of his being.

      I mean, give me some sort of credit, I was deliberately giving everyone polls from opposition-aligned pollsters so there could be no doubt. I could have given you the chavista-aligned polls which show an even greater story but I didn't. And absolutely nobody is giving me the slightest hint of credit and that I might actually know something about the country and am not just some lying shill.

      So: either you are intentionally lying to the community or you've been so primed to hate Venezuela by the media that you responded with a nonsensical statement that you felt "must be true". And then everyone upvoted you without checking, possibly for the same reasons.

      [–]rstcp 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (4子コメント)

      The problem with all of these incidents is that it really isn't clear who has perpetrated most of them. Government media is full of propaganda and misinformation, and on opposition Twitter every instance you mentioned is blamed on the government or its paramilitaries instead.

      Take the El Valle attack for instance: https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2017/04/21/night-el-valle-burned/

      there is a bunch more coverage from a different (liberal/centre-left/opposition/independent) blog. You can see it wasn't just protestors choosing to bomb a maternity hospital; things clearly escalated, not in the least because the government makes serious use of militias.

      When you trust Venezuelan state propaganda more than the NYT (which you clearly shouldn't trust uncritically either) you are going to get at least as distorted of a picture of the situation.

      These people are Pinochet-style fascists

      The vast, vast majority of protesters absolutely are not. That is clear if you've ever marched. There are violent extremists on both sides, and the repressive state is certainly not a 'good guy' in all this.

      [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

      [deleted]

        [–]rstcp 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        This is another good deconstruction of the NYT's pro-war/pro-government bias in picture form (thought you might appreciate it given your username): http://davidshields.com/books/war-is-beautiful/

        But again.. Telesur is still worse.

        [–]big_al11 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        You can't be serious saying Caracas Chronicles is a "liberal" blog. It's literally the most reactionary bullshit on Venezuela anywhere. I go to it when I need ludicrous quotes to point out how nutty the opposition is. They've been caught lying and lying time after time and it doesn't matter. I mean, their founder was fired from the New York Times for being too biased against Venezuela. Think about that! Too reactionary for the NYT!

        The last time these protests happened CC ran with the idea that there was a tropical pogrom going on in Venezuela where the government was murdering thousands and the international media conspired to cover it up.

        Secondly, I hope I've shown I've got a fair amount of knowledge on the subject and that I don't trust any press. I'm the major mod on /r/chomsky and did my phd on the propaganda model. I literally teach students how to evaulate sources. I don't trust the state media. I don't even read the state media!

        Thirdly- you're idea that they are not Pinochet-style fascists- actually I would argue they are. While the large majority march peacefully do not engage in active burning of chavistas, Pinochet had support from the majority of the white elite in Chile, who backed him while he was carrying out his terror. They're voting for a party that is crystal clear in that they'll bring in Chilean-style shock doctrine. Furthermore, they support a party that has time after time tried to carry out violent coups that shut the press down, abolish the constitution and sack every elected official. They refuse to denounce this extrme violence, indeed, one of their only stated goals is to release the people convicted of terrorism, mass murder and arson last time. It is entirely reasonable to say they are marching in a fascist party's march.

        [–]rstcp 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        1. He quit Nyt, wasn't fired
        2. There is a pretty wide range of writers at CC. I did mention that they have an opposition bias, but it's ridiculous to say that they're far right or anything. Show me one article advocating Pinochet-style action or policies
        3. What party are you even talking about, and how the hell are they libertarian?
        4. 'they', again, who? Mud leaders? Denounce violence all the time. I don't think they're the 'good guys' here, but you're just going completely overboard here with hyperbole.
        5. Really? One of their only stated goals?
        6. Most people do not march for anyone, but against the authoritarian state.

        [–]RochelleH 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        How about bombing a maternity hospital forcing 50 newborn babies to be evacuated?

        Firstly, you fool, VenezuelaAnalysis is a government-financed propaganda site. VenezuelaAnalysis and Telesur are worse than fucking Breitbart. Breitbart also has an agenda, but at least it's not a government-financed RAG. SHAME on you for deliberately spreading lies to suit your own agenda. You are revolting.

        How about the exponential increase in infant mortality and deaths during pregnancy, loss of limbs due to gangrene and other preventable illnesses due to the government's mismanagement of the economy and owing pharmaceutical companies 5-7 years of payments for pharmaceuticals provided through social programmes while simultaneously blocking imports (if not kept in balance with exports), access to USD to import any damned thing, and the possibility of donations of medication from neighbouring countries?

        Did you know that those of us in neighbouring countries can't donate medicine? Did you know we can get arrested at the border for bringing in anything other than products for our own use while in the country? That's right, we get groups together and smuggle medication into the country so that they can get lifesaving, and sometimes even basic medicine. Does it seem right to you that a government would even prevent its own citizens from getting healthcare and medication to save its own idiotic ideology? Do you not think this angers people to the point of protest? Do the people in the pictures look like rich elitists to you? Do you imagine these protestors get to stay in some magical special hospital that they are seeking to keep all for themselves?

        Search for the hashtag #serviciopublico on Twitter. This is how Venezuelans try their damned hardest to get access to the most basic of healthcare products, since the government has done their best to impede entry and lets children and elderly fucking rot and die unnecessarily, to salvage their own power.

        Of course, if you gave a shit about people over your own selfish and ridiculous ideology, you could easily see all of this on youtube and elsewhere

        [–]Nevasky2017 Forum signature -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        you realize not every revolution is a good revolution?

        [–]TotesMessenger -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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        [–]creepycraigLibertarian Socialist 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (10子コメント)

        It's sad when the only opposition to the authoritarian regime is nothing bur supporters of the right wing. It's the authoritarian left. They make the entire leftist movement look bad. We need to show the world that we don't agree with or condone authoritarianism.

        [–]jbastardov 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (6子コメント)

        The most of the political parties participating in the protests are center-left aligned, some are center aligned and very few (mostly unregistered) parties are actually right-aligned, all ideologically-wise.

        You have trots, MLs and other leftists, workers and general public (no specific political alignment) participating in protests.

        The idea that all protesters are right-wing is an idea promoted by the State and its media, being just verbally reshared letter by letter by other supporters of the State and its Government.

        [–]rstcp 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Indeed. Most right-wing elites have either left the country a while ago, or they've been co-opted by PSUV.

        [–]creepycraigLibertarian Socialist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        The idea that all protesters are right-wing is an idea promoted by the State and its media, being just verbally reshared letter by letter by other supporters of the State and its Government.

        Fair enough. I wouldn't doubt that they'd do such a thing, if what I've been hearing is true.

        [–]jbastardov 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Is what works for them. Just group all of the protests under a big "right-wing" umbrella and only share news about the must distasteful, radical and extremist actions taken by some individuals during the manifestations.

        [–]creepycraigLibertarian Socialist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Yeah, sadly that makes sense. The Venezuelan government isn't really know for being honest or peaceful. What they're doing is hurting the very cause they claim to represent.

        [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

        [deleted]

          [–]jbastardov 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Yes some heads of a part of the opposition movement, mostly centered around the a core of social-democratic parties grouped in the MUD, have called for the Army to put down their weapons, respect the rights of the individuals and stand against the Government. Something that is not supported by the MUD as a whole and is incredibly ludicrous, considering the military are the rabid dogs of the State and should be disappeared, not being called upon for support.

          Chávez literally participated in a military coup, that failed miserably, before launching his presidential campaign.

          And your statement doesn't change the facts about anything of what I wrote. The protesters are munch more than just "right-wing maniacs".

          [–]RochelleH 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

          nothing bur supporters of the right wing

          Yeah, you are categorically incorrect about that. Of course, I bet you've never actually set foot in Venezuela, right?

          [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

          [deleted]

            [–]RochelleH 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            snob.

            set foot in Venezuela

            HAHAHHAHAHA.

            [–]blueoysterpulp 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            It is truly interesting to see what people think from the outside when talking about Venezuela.

            So far in this thread I have seen mostly misinformed opinions... this is not as simple as "government good and protestors bad" nor vice versa. This is far more complicated than most issues seen here in the U.S. And it sucks seeing how it is being oversimplified by people.

            [–]sexrobot_sexrobot 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            When I clicked on this I was ready to rehash the same fights I always have on the general subs over Venezuela, but then I was glad to see this wasn't a general sub.

            Needless to say, building a socialist economy on the continued high price of oil doesn't work. Also having the entire professional and managerial class sit on their hands rather than work with Chavez meant that the Venezuelan experiment never had much of a chance of working.

            I assume at this point Maduro will be forced out/assassinated and the old oligarchs will reimpose their rule. The vast majority of people that were helped in the era of high oil prices will be impoverished once again and the neoliberal foreign press will call it a triumph of rightwing rule.

            [–]PauloGuina 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (33子コメント)

            Smash the state!

            [–]vris92 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (32子コメント)

            these are the bad guys

            [–]adiabaticalomnicidalist 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            His point still stands.

            [–]RochelleH 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Um, no. The bad guys would be the tupamaros -government financed tuhgs- that go around robbing, beating, and killing average citizens. Add the government-paid supporters that keep vigil outside the presidential house 24-7 and beat anyone wanting to express dissent. Add the military to that, who also steal food, sell it on the black market, and threaten, loot, and beat the general public. If you spoke Spanish or knew a damned thing about the world, you could search this on youtube and see it yourself.

            Anyway, noone in this sub is actually interested in reality or hearing from people that spend time there, rather just masturbating their flimsy intellect, pretending to be living out some ideology as though their cushy bourgeouise lives actually had meaning. Pro-tip: the third world actually doesn't give a shit about your ideologies. To us, YOU are the decolonisers, the oppressors, and the burgeouise.

            [–]big_al11 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Sorry, has this thread been invaded by reactionaries from /r/vzla?

            [–]RochelleH 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            No, but it seems to be orchestrated by First World Ideologue Champagne Anarchists looking for some kind of meaning for their lives.

            [–]PauloGuina 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (26子コメント)

            Bolivarians aren't good guys either. Quite the contrary,to be honest,fuck chavismo.

            [–]vris92 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (7子コメント)

            cool but stop cheering for white nationalists

            [–]okmkzflippant 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            seems like an odd juxtaposition, but I live in a propaganda bubble

            [–]PauloGuina 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (5子コメント)

            Venezuelan opposition are not White Nationalists,that would be ridiculous as most of the county is mixed race,stop watching TeleSur

            [–]big_al11 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (4子コメント)

            Julio Borges, the head of the opposition's main party, Justice First, wrote an article arguing that non-white Venezuelans should no longer be classified "citizens" and be reclassified as "inhabitants" of Venezuela only, which to me echoes how Aboriginal people in Australia were classed until the late 1960s.

            [–]Niquarl 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

            Source ?

            [–]big_al11 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Closest I can find with precise googling is this scholarly paper from Prof Barry Cannon:

            "Similarly Julio Borges, leader of US funded political party Primero Justicia (Justice First), qualifies those who vote for Chávez as 'inhabitants' not 'citizens', implying that they acted without thinking"

            He says those who vote for Chavez, but this entire paper is all about the race/class correlation and the strong race/voting correlation, where white vote opposition and blacks vote chavista.

            [–]Niquarl 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Thanks.

            I didn't know the "oposition" was that bad.

            [–]jbastardov 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Julio Borges is a piece of shit and sadly a national face of a part of the opposition movement, the one part grouped in the MUD.

            But he and the MUD do no talk for the whole opposition protesters where many ideologies are present, both from the left and the right.

            [–]big_al11 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (7子コメント)

            So you'd like those Pinochet-style fascists to come in and have a shock doctrine would you? If you actually speak to Venezuelan anarchists they don't really like the government but they agree that it is the only force protecting them from being massacred by the fascists, like they were all over Latin America in the late 20th century.

            [–]TDuffinAn economy based on endless growth is /unsustainable/ 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

            Realistically both sides are fucked. One way you get more Maduro bullshit that might get better one day, or you get right-wing reactionary forces that at least say they'll make elections fair.

            [–]big_al11 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            First of all, you won't find an election monitoring organisation that doesn't say the elections in Venezuela aren't exemplary. Even organizations that the US government is paying to go over there like the Carter Centre, say they're the best elections in the world (much better than the US ones). Jimmy Carter said "I would say that the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world.". So the elections certainly aren't the problem. Nobody in Venezuela believes the opposition will make them fair. When they took over in 2002, they sacked every member of the supreme court, liquidated congress, judges and rounded up and tortured political opponents and forced media off their by torturing their directors. They're constantly trying to violently overthrow the government.

            or you get right-wing reactionary forces that at least say they'll make elections fair.

            Ah yes, those reactionary white nationalists with their love of free elections.

            The problem is the government has been mismanaging the economy doubled with the worldwide capitalist depression which has hurt Venezuela doubly bad, coupled with the opposition and US trying to sink the economy.

            [–]Skirtsmoother 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            The government has literally sniped the legislative branch via Maduro's puppets at the Supreme Court, and Maduro is ruling by decree. So, yeah, elections were fair, now let's make them essentially pointless.

            [–]rstcp 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Exactly. The parallels with Zimbabwe are legion. Mugabe holds free and fair elections whenever he's assured of a good outcome, and cracks down whenever he's at risk of losing control. PSUV is corrupt to the core and not worth defending.

            [–]PauloGuina 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            "Pinochet-style fascists"

            You should stop watching TeleSur I don't know if you noticed but the government is massacring opposition much,much worse than the opposition is doing anything.

            Even if they're right-wing,I prefer a right wing gov where I live to fight another day than a "leftist" one where I starve and/or get beaten by the people's stick.

            [–]big_al11 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Ok so here's a chart of all the people killed compiled by an actual libertarian socialist journalist inside Venezuela. You'll see that there's been no "massacre" by the government and the vast majority of deaths have been killed by the protestors you seem to love for some reason.

            Furthermore, if you listen to his account you'll see that it is absolutely fucking garbage that people inside Venezuela are starving to death. And he and his partner go through how and why in detail.

            I'd expect this kind of blind following of whatever the media told us in T_D but not in /r/anarchism.

            [–]jbastardov 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            What Venezuelan anarchists are those that you speak of? The government-supported and already-disappeared FARV? the "libertarian-marxists" of AIRE?

            There has been know and continuous criticism from trotskyists, marxist-leninist, libertarian socialist, anarchists and left communists against the both the Venezuelan government and the Statist opposition political parties grouped on the MUD.

            [–]OneReportersOpinion 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (9子コメント)

            Chavez undoubtedly improved the quality of life for the poorest people in the country, his abuses of power notwithstanding.

            [–]TDuffinAn economy based on endless growth is /unsustainable/ 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (7子コメント)

            Chávez improved some things, and in other ways he didn't make the country resilient to oil price fluctuations.

            The problem Maduro is a total mess.

            [–]OneReportersOpinion 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (6子コメント)

            Yeah say what you want about Chavez, but his interest in helping the poor seemed very genuine. I don't know what the fuck Maduro's agenda is. But Chavez did seriously miscalculate the long term viability of a petrol economy.

            [–]jbastardov 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

            That's because he never changed Venezuela's capitalist rentist oil-based economy that has been the base and principal way of economy the country has know for more than 60 years, or even longer.

            Nowadays the country's dependence on imports, broken agriculture and low income from the oil prices are hitting the population.

            And yes, Chávez did well on trying to improve the life of people with low (or no) income, but he made this with a populist agenda where the all-powerful State is the one that garantices all your "benefits". Is sad to see nowadays the conditions of those people now that the Father-State can't take care of them anymore.

            [–]rstcp 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (4子コメント)

            I really don't understand why Chavez' personality cult, his narcissism and heavily statist approach are applauded at all in /r/anarchism

            [–]OneReportersOpinion -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

            Because you can make a very good case that he was, on the balance, good for the poor people of Venezuela, and helped spark a backlash to hemispheric hegemony by the US. Of course he was a statist, of course he was repressive, of course he didn't help the people as long term as he could have. But he was better than anything a liberal government could have offered. You can recognize that without falling prey to a cult of personality.

            [–]rstcp 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            I'm not so sure that he was good on balance. His poverty relief programmes weren't just unsustainable, as the current crisis demonstrates, they were also clientalist and hierarchical, furthering the expansion of a deeply corrupt and even more present state. Half-hearted attempts at decentralization and worker's control seemed to be mostly based on the same notion of building a reliable voting block. Again, the man was a narcissist of the highest order, and I believe that his ultimate ambition was just to be El Presidente forever.

            And sure, he staved off the imperial influence of the US (at a time when they were already in fast retreat), but he invited a new semi-colonial power in the form of the Cubans who delivered military hardware, spies, and methods of control in exchange for oil. And yes, Cuba is still a totalitarian dictatorship, even though it's certainly better than a right-wing dictatorship.

            Maybe I'm just too cynical, but I don't see much of an upside in Venezuela. All of the rest of Latin America can continue to frighten large parts of its population into voting liberal/right-wing now with the Spectre of failed socialism looming in Caracas, fair or not.

            I think it's deeply hypocritical to say we should choose authoritarian socialism because the alternative is even worse, yet dismiss liberal democracies despite the most realistic alternatives being far worse as well. We can and should reject both.

            [–]PauloGuina 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Indeed he did. But at what cost? All those conquests are gone now,the country is suffering from chronic shortage of pretty much everything,even anti-protest gear.

            And most of the blame is on the bolivarian model,even the outside interference happen.

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              [–]swoleprole 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              This entire post is a shit show

              [–]Anarcho_Posadism-trashumanist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

              Why would any anarchist support Venezuela's government? Also what is so bad about riots anyway?

              [–]blueoysterpulp 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Lots of people assume that since the government is left leaning (pseudo left if you ask me) the people protesting are automatically supporting the far right.

              None of my friends that are out in the streets fighting are like that. Most are socialists and anarchists that hate the current government.

              [–]RochelleH 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              They like to assume it so they can pretend they're part of a movement or have some kind of purpose or philosophy. Most would shit their pants and want right back on the fucking plane if they even set foot in Caracas.

              The people in this sub are incredibly deluded. I think they desperately want to blame their own system for their shit standing in life, and look to these other crackpot banana republic systems as being the answer. They really just want a scapegoat for their own situation.

              They will refuse to believe that the general public is against the government, and not some evil far right group, which barely exist in Latin America, anyway. The furthest right you'll find here, and those with the most radical stance on anything at all are Evangelists that are anti-abortion. Even the right in Latin America knows it can't escape assistencialism and needs social programmes to support the poor... the majority of the population is poor and noone will ever get into power by taking away social benefits. You will never teach these people anything beyond what they know to be the U.S. defintions of left and right.

              Frankly, I think they prefer that darkness... the anger keeps them from assuming their own responsibility as to where they are in life.

              [–]jbastardov 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Here in Venezuela, they don't, at least not any Venezuelan anarchist group that I know, not even the Chavez-supporters of AIRE (ex-FARV) are supporting Maduro's government this days.

              But not all anarchist support the protests, since some think of them as engaging in the power struggle between the repressive government and reactionary political parties.

              Others choose to participate and push for socialist ideas alongside trots, MLs and other leftists individuals, against both the government and the conservative political parties.