上位 200 件のコメント全て表示する 309

[–]10art1left-libertarian 412 ポイント413 ポイント  (147子コメント)

"If you don't like the rules, follow them. Then, when you get to the top, change them"

-Adolph Hitler

[–]On-The-SpotDiceSpin 263 ポイント264 ポイント  (1子コメント)

"It's fucking spelled Adolf"

-Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer

[–]nevergetssarcasmUpvoting <0 Comments 47 ポイント48 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Adolph Hitler the author, not Adolf Hitler the dictator. Nobody held a gun to his head when he chose that as a pen name...or did they?

[–]Bailie2 62 ポイント63 ポイント  (14子コメント)

So if Hitler ate eggs and toast for breakfast, does that mean no one should eat it ever again? Even a broken clock is right twice a day, even if it's Hitler's broken clock.

[–]TheRogueGamer 42 ポイント43 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ha! Broken clock my ass, thats German craftsmanship son /s

[–]Thegoodthebadandaman 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

not German craftsmanship unless the clock is on fire!

[–]Send_Me__Corgi_Gifs 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Nah, Hitler was a vegan if I am correct. So no eggs for him.

[–]10art1left-libertarian 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ja, ich kannt standt ze thought of killing ze living thing!

[–]PrinzvonPreuszen 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

vegetarian, due to health reasons, didn't prolong his life tho

[–]Harnisfechten 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

wait what is Hitler supposed to be right about?

[–]stiffy2005pragmatist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Quiet, just follow all of the rules.

[–]RSocialismRunByKids[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hitler also liked dogs.

[–]AllWrong74Realist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm literally Hitler...It's confirmed...

[–]improbablewobble 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

At least they had an ethos, dude.

[–]Geicosellscrap 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They had ethos! We sent out the defense at 25:00! We wait for the Fuhrer's clock!

[–]throwitupwatchitfallalt-right is not libertarian so don't pretend it is 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (87子コメント)

Then the Jews followed the rules of their gun ownership being heavily restricted and were summarily tortured/exterminated.

[–]10art1left-libertarian 48 ポイント49 ポイント  (69子コメント)

Right, because even though it took five years and millions of soldiers to stop Hitler, if only those jews had guns! Come on, that's ridiculous

[–]wellactuallyhmmit's not "left vs. right", it's state vs rights 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Also, there were active Jewish resistance movements.

[–]Geicosellscrap 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But the second amendment is the only thing I know shit about so if I was a Jew in 1939 It be totally different.

[–]Harnisfechten 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (36子コメント)

are you claiming that having a gun to defend yourself is not better than not having a gun at all?

are you claiming that armed insurgencies and resistance movements can't see any sort of success??

[–]10art1left-libertarian 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (35子コメント)

I'm saying they did happen and they did help a bit, but Hitler could not have been stopped had some Jews been armed, he had a state of the art army that nearly took over the world.

[–]Harnisfechten 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (31子コメント)

again, are you claiming that insurgency movements can't have any sort of success against "state of the art armies"?

huh.

look, nobody is saying that jews with some rifles were gonna take down Nazi Germany all by themselves. But their odds of success are irrelevant to whether or not it would have been "right" or "better" for them to have been armed.

[–]JWAxeMan 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Jew here, by your logic, armed criminals would never be caught. In fact, they just end up dying before getting arrested because the police shoot them.

[–]Harnisfechten 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Jew here

am I supposed to care? Does this make your opinion more important or relevant?

by your logic, armed criminals would never be caught.

nonsense.

[–]JWAxeMan 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (8子コメント)

The reply of a man who knows he's been beat.

The Holocaust is a bit of a sore spot in our recent history...the idea that gun ownership would have saved Jews from Hitler's war machine is ridiculous and borderline offensive, as it demonstrates a clear misunderstanding of what created and allowed for the rapid growth of the Holocaust.

Let's dive deeper. Start here.

Now let's move on. Read this.

Hooray, we learned something new today! Now perhaps we can start making strides, one person at a time, toward putting this embarrassing theory to rest.

[–]Harnisfechten 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (6子コメント)

the idea that gun ownership would have saved Jews from Hitler's war machine is ridiculous and borderline offensive

good thing nobody is saying that.

once again, the odds of someone succeeding in defending themselves with a weapon has ZERO effect on whether or not it would be right for them to have that weapon. Even if the odds of successfully defending themselves would be 0.1%, it doesn't matter.

armed resistance is better than unarmed victimhood.

[–]AllWrong74Realist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

the idea that gun ownership would have saved Jews from Hitler's war machine is ridiculous and borderline offensive

Then, I guess it's a good thing the guy you're responding to never made the assertion that gun ownership would have saved Jews from Hitler's war machine, huh?

EDIT: WOW! Even your first link is 1 giant straw man.

[–]AllWrong74Realist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

by your logic

I don't think you know what logic is, because the logic he used doesn't lead to your assertion in any way. By his logic, criminals are better off with guns. Being better off has nothing to do with them never being caught, as he went to pains to point out with this sentence (emphasis mine):

look, nobody is saying that jews with some rifles were gonna take down Nazi Germany all by themselves. But their odds of success are irrelevant to whether or not it would have been "right" or "better" for them to have been armed.

[–]10art1left-libertarian -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (18子コメント)

Perhaps marginally better. But it's still ridiculous to suggest that the second amendment is there to stop tyrants. Maybe back then, but not in the modern age

[–]kerouacrimbaudConsequentialist 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (12子コメント)

How is it ridiculous? Mechanized armies have grown increasingly worse at combating weak actors like guerrillas and terror cells. This is something that has grown more pronounced over time. It isn't some ole timey folksy shit from Appalachia.

[–]Sean951 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (5子コメント)

They aren't worse at it, society as a whole is unwilling to tolerate the steps needed because it's pretty objectively evil.

[–]kerouacrimbaudConsequentialist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

That's part of the reason why they win, a pretty big part of it. But asymmetric conflict always favors the weak.

[–]Locke92 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

The terror cells and guerrillas don't win anything though. It is a perfectly viable tactic to bleed a foreign government to the point that it leaves your country, but when was the last time a domestic insurgency (as distinct to a full scale civil war) actually effected change? Hell, FARC just ended their conflict after what, 30 years? The could fight forever in those jungles, but they weren't changing the government the way they wanted. Without significant outside assistance most insurgencies don't have the ability to meaningfully effect change in their own countries through guerrilla warfare.

[–]kerouacrimbaudConsequentialist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I am just going to copy my response to u/sean951 here since yall are kind of asking similar questions:

When strategy and technology is similar between warring factions, the stronger actor is much more likely to win. This becomes increasingly difficult when the strategies differ (conventional strategy v. unconventional strategy) and when technology gaps widen beyond a certain point.

Check out this paper, in PDF form, on the subject.

Guns make it easier, but back then if an area rebelled, they'd send in the army and kill anything that resisted, burn the fields, arrest family and friends, torture etc. And they would do this for a generation or two until it integrated.

Yes, if strong actors are willing to commit that level of time and resources to a situation, they can win. But what makes weaker actors gain the upperhand in these kinds of conflicts is that their will to fight is much higher and the stakes for them losing are also higher. Strong actors will usually cut their losses at the risk of Pyrrhic victories against small-time actors with limited economic gains (given the cost of maintaining such low-level combat over extended periods of time).

Not all old empires faced these kinds of conflicts to the extent we do now. Not all old empires encountered and conquered others with such vast technological and strategic asymmetries as we do now. They did happen, but the technology gap had a much different effect on those conflicts than they do now.

Today, people get rightly upset if you accidentally kill civilians.

Hence why it is increasingly difficult to wage war on weak actors. They can hide behind civilians with relative ease, particularly if their arms are predominately small arms. It is far harder to hide behind civilians when your forces have tanks and aircraft.

A lot of military strategy is counter-intuitive, at least on the surface. Weak actors having a better chance today at defeating strong actors? Sounds kinda strange, but we see this time and time again. The closer you move to the modern day, you see fewer and fewer successful campaigns waged by strong actors (US, France, Britain, etc.) domestically or abroad. The most recent one I can think of is the end of the Troubles in regards to Northern Ireland. But even then, violence has continued, and politically, the situation is still tense.

Some point to Russian action in Chechnya as an example of how it is futile to stand up to major governments, but in reality, the Chechens won. The Chechens got essentially their own Putin to run their region. Putin knew the only way to end the conflict swiftly was to give the Chechens essentially what they wanted without actually granting them full independence.

[–]Harnisfechten 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (4子コメント)

it's not ridiculous at all.

you really seem to be underestimating how insurgencies can resist powerful militaries.

[–]10art1left-libertarian -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

They can resist, but really not much will come of it unless a superpower intervenes

[–]kerouacrimbaudConsequentialist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Which superpower helped the Algerians fight off the French? Which superpower helped the Mau Mau Uprising against the British?

[–]notbob1 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Tell that to the Vietkong

[–]iopq 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

The Soviet Union had a state of the art army that couldn't beat some random guys with AK-47s in Afghanistan.

[–]MandolinMagi 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The US sent those random guys Stinger MANPADS.

[–]iopq 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So? They were still outarmed 1000x. It doesn't matter if you have better firepower if you don't know where the enemy is, hiding with the simplest firearm, ready to shoot.

[–]throwitupwatchitfallalt-right is not libertarian so don't pretend it is 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (28子コメント)

Yeah I'm sure Hitler specifically targeting Jews for gun restrictions prior to exterminating them was pure coincidence, right?

[–]10art1left-libertarian 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (27子コメント)

It wasn't, but how much differently do you think history would have played out if the Jews that had guns didn't surrender them? They'd just get shot there instead of in the camps.

[–]throwitupwatchitfallalt-right is not libertarian so don't pretend it is 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (10子コメント)

I recall you having this exact same argument in another post a while ago, getting completely pwned, and clearly having learnt nothing from it.

Edit: /u/10art1 it wasn't you, but this exact same conversation has happened before, in /r/pics, funny enough:

https://np.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/66ecgc/this_is_what_a_nation_rejecting_dictatorship/dgi0byk/

They had a more libertarian stance than /r/libertarian. Funny.

[–]10art1left-libertarian 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Link me to the exact comment?

[–]throwitupwatchitfallalt-right is not libertarian so don't pretend it is 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Been searching, I can't find it. There was a wonderful but poignant quote from one of the survivors of Stalin's purges (who also disarmed the people who he then purged).

[–]10art1left-libertarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Well again, I don't see how having a gun would help if the secret police are after you.

[–]VassiliMikailovichMisesian 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”

-Solzhenitsyn

[–]JWAxeMan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

By that logic armed criminals would never get caught.

Usually armed resistance leads to one of two outcomes: life in prison or death.

[–]throwitupwatchitfallalt-right is not libertarian so don't pretend it is 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you can't see how civil possession of arms would be helpful in resisting government tyranny, I don't know how I can convince you. It's like someone denying the sky is blue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ9w1HHRMQw

[–]DirtySnakes 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (15子コメント)

It's almost like maybe the Nazi soldiers wouldn't have been able to work freely take Jews from cities if they had to fear guns in the process.

You're showing your ignorance, that's okay.

[–]10art1left-libertarian 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (14子コメント)

[–]WikiTextBot 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nazi gun control theory

The Nazi gun control theory is counterfactual history, which is a form of history that attempts to answer "what if" questions known as counterfactuals. According to this theory, the gun regulations enforced by the Third Reich rendered victims of the Holocaust weaker to such an extent that they could have more effectively resisted oppression if they had been armed or better armed.

This theory is prevalent and primarily used within U.S. gun politics. Questions about its validity, and about the motives behind its inception, have been raised by scholars. Proponents in the United States have used it as part of a "security against tyranny" argument, while opponents have referred to it as a form of Reductio ad Hitlerum.


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[–]DirtySnakes 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Oh, a theory. Thanks.

[–]10art1left-libertarian 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Tbh calling what you believe a theory is kinda pushing it. Disproven conjecture is more accurate.

[–]DirtySnakes 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Did you read that wiki article? Apparently not....

[–]HelperBot_ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_gun_control_theory


HelperBot v1.1 /r/HelperBot_ I am a bot. Please message /u/swim1929 with any feedback and/or hate. Counter: 80562

[–]mortemdeus 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah, because jews killing security and military personnel wouldn't have fed the propaganda machine and made it harder to sympathize with them. Its not like we have an identical incident in the exact same time period to compare it to or anything. /s

[–]throwitupwatchitfallalt-right is not libertarian so don't pretend it is 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think people with common sense will be able to distinguish which group of people is being oppressed. You prefer the alternative? Quietly surrender and get tortured/gassed/enslaved/murdered?

[–]Geicosellscrap 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (14子コメント)

Yea a could of armed civilians is gonna fight off a million soldiers.

Your gun maybe useful against another armed civilian, but you're lead shooter is useless against the drone army we already have.

You're bragging about having the fastest horse. At a NASCAR race. You're gun is out dated. You need transparency to protect you from your government. If the government want to get rid of you, they don't kick down your door with a gun. They plant CP on your computer and destroy your life. Guns are the mobs tool. The world has moved on.

[–]throwitupwatchitfallalt-right is not libertarian so don't pretend it is 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (10子コメント)

  1. Civilians vastly outnumber soldiers, Jews were unfortunate to be a targeted minority

  2. Even if Jews were going to lose to Hitler despite being armed (non-sequitur), it's myopic and idiotic to dismiss the case for armament, as they certainly would not have gone down as easy or as quick and would have had the dignity to take down a % of soldiers with them. They could have even resisted long enough for help to arrive.

  3. You're making the case for military grade civilian armament.

Government has murdered 260+ million of its own citizens in the 20th century alone. This is direct murder (not death due to shitty socialist healthcare or unsafe government roads, etc.). This doesn't include war, or 19th or 21st century.

Ignoring the importance for civilian armament is extremely ignorant of history, statistics, and common sense.

[–]Geicosellscrap -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (9子コメント)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/World_map_of_civilian_gun_ownership_-_2nd_color_scheme.svg/550px-World_map_of_civilian_gun_ownership_-_2nd_color_scheme.svg.png

The planet doesn't have common sense? Then it's not common is it.

Guns are greatly restricted in the rest of the world.

I'm not making any case for civilian military grade anything.

You want to give terrorists nukes? Cause I need to defend myself from the government so I have a nuke.

And now we all have nukes. What could go Wrong?

[–]throwitupwatchitfallalt-right is not libertarian so don't pretend it is 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Is that map supposed to be an argument? I just cited an important statistic which you have failed to address. ]

You want to give terrorists nukes? Cause I need to defend myself from the government so I have a nuke.

Straw man? Fuck off.

[–]Geicosellscrap 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

You said militarize the civilians population, so I can a tank but no missle?

[–]throwitupwatchitfallalt-right is not libertarian so don't pretend it is 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

In short, yes.

[–]Geicosellscrap 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Ok, So tanks are good but we're drawing the line with nukes. The next congressional baseball game is going to be sooo much fun with TANKS.

[–]Faundryminarchist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yes I'm sure everyone would be slaughtering each other with vehicles that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars when people are struggling to pay off their mortgage.

[–]could-of-bot 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's either could HAVE or could'VE, but never could OF.

See Grammar Errors for more information.

[–]One_Winged_RookI Don't Vote 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Pretty strict on the grammar there.

Towing a fine line there, friend.

Soon you'll be goose stepping right along with them

[–]vivatrump 39 ポイント40 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Is what King said really true?

[–]Octacon 135 ポイント136 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Hitler did a lot of illegal shit in order to get in power so not really. Everything he did in power though was obviously legal since he had almost unlimited power

[–]withmymindsheruns 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Even what he did once in power was often illegal and had to be kept hidden, the rearmament of germany was a massive example. Even during the war the Nazis were conscious of how heinously illegal shit like the holocaust was and they went to great lengths to try to cover it up.

[–]ShadilayKekistan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The rearmament was not illegal under German law.

[–]kazdejuis 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (1子コメント)

In 1933 the German parliament (Reichstag) gave Hitler basically complete authority over the entire country. So of course he didn't do anything illegal, he had power to change the laws to make whatever he wanted to do legal.

In terms of international law, of course it wasn't legal, which is why all of the top Nazi officials were tried at Nuremberg.

[–]WikiTextBot 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Enabling Act of 1933

The Enabling Act (German: Ermächtigungsgesetz) was a 1933 Weimar Constitution amendment that gave the German Cabinet – in effect, Chancellor Adolf Hitler – the power to enact laws without the involvement of the Reichstag. It passed in both the Reichstag and Reichsrat on 24 March 1933, and was signed by President Paul von Hindenburg later that day. The act stated that it was to last four years unless renewed by the Reichstag, which occurred twice. The Enabling Act gave Hitler plenary powers. It followed on the heels of the Reichstag Fire Decree, which abolished most civil liberties and transferred state powers to the Reich government.


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[–]Sean951 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

He gained power through legal means, elections and such, but there was a lot of voter intimidation and such. I think the gist was more that he didn't just seize power, he worked within the system and when he broke laws, it was the same kind of laws that were being broken in the US to keep minorities down/ political machines in power.

[–]Hippo-CratesFacts > Theory 171 ポイント172 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Hitler was put in prison for an attempted coup (that's when he wrote Mein Kampf). That's not a good quote from MLK (if it really is one, trusting images is not a good idea for quotes).

Edit: So it is a real quote, and in context it makes a lot more sense, as you would expect. MLK's point in the passage is that the state is not the final arbiter about what is moral. Something that is legal is not automatically moral. Something that is illegal is not automatically immoral. It's actually a passage that should speak to every libertarian.

[–]shu_man_fu 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (0子コメント)

More context:

We should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was "legal" and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was "illegal." It was "illegal" to aid and comfort a Jew in Hitler's Germany. Even so, I am sure that, had I lived in Germany at the time, I would have aided and comforted my Jewish brothers. If today I lived in a Communist country where certain principles dear to the Christian faith are suppressed, I would openly advocate disobeying that country's antireligious laws. -MLK,Letter from Birmingham Jail

Dr. King was arrested for staging and participating in nonviolent protests and sit-ins against racism and segregation in April, 1963. His methods were criticized publicly in the newspaper by a group of eight white clergymen. King saw it as his Christian duty to stand up for the rights of the oppressed, especially when the laws of men didn't square with the teachings of Jesus. The Letter from Birmingham Jail is his response to the open letter published by the clergymen.

read the letter here

Edit - added link

[–]MrAnderson345 45 ポイント46 ポイント  (2子コメント)

MLK's point in the passage is that the state is not the final arbiter about what is moral.

Well, yeah, obviously. What the hell else did you think it meant?

[–]stillmclovinit 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

what tf other meaning could it have. reading comprehension is fairly easy

[–]brokedown 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That wasn't prison, it was just camp! Hence all the confusion later....

[–]Bailie2 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I hate when people down vote you because it doesn't fit their propaganda.

[–]Tsorovar 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

MLK's point in the passage is that the state is not the final arbiter about what is moral. Something that is legal is not automatically moral. Something that is illegal is not automatically immoral. It's actually a passage that should speak to every libertarian.

This isn't a uniquely libertarian point. Anyone on the political spectrum - with the exception of people who like theocracies or the "divine right of kings" - would agree with that.

[–]Hippo-CratesFacts > Theory 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's ludicrously not true. Authoritarians all over the spectrum would disagree

[–]Tsorovar 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You've got it backwards. Authoritarians want to institute a state that enforces what they want on everyone. That's different from believing that something is moral because it was done by the state.

[–]throwitupwatchitfallalt-right is not libertarian so don't pretend it is 119 ポイント120 ポイント  (42子コメント)

The Jews being kidnapped and exterminated was part of the social contract. If they didn't like it, why didn't they leave?

[–]billabillabillaClassical Economist 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's because they had to stay and build the roads.

[–]pacjaxGo Rand Paul! Fuck net neutrality! Fuck the paris accord! 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (1子コメント)

LMAO. why are you being downvoted for this. this is hilarious

[–]syrielmorane 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because some can't read the humor in that. It's blatantly obvious to me though. Lol.

[–]Anlarb 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (9子コメント)

I don't think you know what the social contract is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Social_Contract

The Social Contract argued against the idea that monarchs were divinely empowered to legislate. Rousseau asserts that only the people, who are sovereign, have that all-powerful right.

He concludes book one, chapter three with, "Let us then admit that force does not create right, and that we are obliged to obey only legitimate powers", which is to say, the ability to coerce is not a legitimate power, and there is no rightful duty to submit to it. A state has no right to enslave a conquered people.

[–]adelie42voluntaryist 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The problem is that mobs / democratic majorities can be just as despotic as Kings. In his time he pushed thought forward in the right direction, but fell short in ways that would have been difficult to predict.

The real problems with Rousseau came with people that followed trying to build on his foundations. Rothbard counters them, in particular, in Anatomy of a State where he specifically uses the example of the Jews in Germany, though he takes it from the angle that because they lived there they consented to the will of the majority and as such they really killed themselves.

I expect anybody comparing the holocaust to social contract theory is referencing Rothbard's famous essay on the matter.

Tl;dr I think he does. Do you?

[–]GravyMcBiscuits 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Sounds to me that the vast majority of people who reference the Social Contract don't know what it is then.

In most conversations, the social contract is held as an obligation over everyone who lives in a particular region. That part referencing coercion (what libertarians so vehemently oppose) is conveniently left out.

"Don't like it? GTFO" - Battle cry of the social contract enforcer

[–]Anlarb 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, yes, if you want to stop getting billed for rent then you should move out of the apartment.

If you want to live in a prosperous "region", you need to contribute to that "region" 's prosperity- that "coercion" is how it got prosperous in the first place. Your entitlement to simply live in a void where no force exists is wildly unrealistic.

[–]zoink 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't think you know what the social contract is.

The social contract isn't an objective thing. You linked to Rousseau's there are many other understandings of the concept.

[–]WikiTextBot 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The Social Contract

The Social Contract, or Of the Social Contract, or Principles of Political Law (French: Du contrat social ou Principes du droit politique; 1762) by Jean-Jacques Rousseau, is a book in which Rousseau theorized about the best way to establish a political community in the face of the problems of commercial society, which he had already identified in his Discourse on Inequality (1754).

The Social Contract helped inspire political reforms or revolutions in Europe, especially in France. The Social Contract argued against the idea that monarchs were divinely empowered to legislate. Rousseau asserts that only the people, who are sovereign, have that all-powerful right.


[ PM | Exclude me | Exclude from subreddit | FAQ / Information ] Downvote to remove | v0.21

[–]throwitupwatchitfallalt-right is not libertarian so don't pretend it is 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Rousseau asserts that only the people, who are sovereign, have that all-powerful right.

This is vastly different to how socialists assert the social contract. In fact, if the people are sovereign, we'd have an an-cap society. Individual sovereignty to the fullest.

Commonly, the social contract argument is used as a rebuttal against the demonstration that the state relies on initiating violence against peaceful people in order to exist. "If you don't like the rules of the state, leave". Like we have a moral obligation to adhere to a coercive monopoly. This type of contract wouldn't even be consensual if it were a piece of paper that was signed, because it would be signed under **duress*, let alone magically implicit (despite the terms unclear, and the age in which it applies to below any age of meaningful consent).

Imagine a sovereign town. If I took over all the sources of food through conquest, and use coercion to stifle any competition, including getting them to sign a contract agreeing to never supply food, then said "if you don't like it, you're free leave". Do you think that's meaningful consent? Of course not. Now, replace food with other services that the government currently "provides", such as arbitration, security, roads... And watch the mind of a statist implode.

Similarly, the social contract is a contract that is:

  1. asserted by individuals who obtained control of resources through initiation coercion and maintained their monopoly through violence (most morally sensical people would regard a claim of ownership on property attained through initiation of violence as illegitimate)

  2. terms of such contract unclear (cannot give any meaningful consent)

  3. applicable to minors (cannot give any meaningful consent)

[–]darthhayekTrump supporter 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, why didn't they move to Siberia or Madagascar?

[–]Puncharoo 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The point was not to show that Hitler wasn't a terrible person. It's to show the subjectivity of the law. One of the first things you learn when you begin studying law in high school is the difference between being just and being moral. Morality is a whole other ball game. What Hitler did was JUST, that is, it wasn't against the law. But it was not MORAL. You can absolutely be immorally just, as well as morally unjust. Hitler was of the former. He demonized entire groups of people and sent them to their death. Whether it was for the good of his nation or not, no one can argue the immorality of his actions, regardless of whether they were just or not.

[–]DGthekid 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (6子コメント)

The quote from the letter puts the word "legal" in quotations, changing the meaning of the quote drastically. This is a good example of the importance of punctuation.

[–]raideratoLP.org 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (5子コメント)

changing the meaning of the quote drastically

I don't see how it changes the meaning at all. Care to explain?

[–]ChamberedEcho 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

They imagined air quotes.

[–]raideratoLP.org 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Does that change the meaning at all? His point is that legality does not mean morality, and that point still stands without stressing "legal".

[–]DGthekid 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sure. So when MLK puts the word "legal" into quotations, he is basically saying that while it is true that Hitler's actions were legal, it is also true that the legality that existed in Hitler's Germany was not the legality that would exist in any other developed state. I guess it would be kind of similar if MLK had put the word "technically" in front of the word legal in the same quote.

[–]kevinrk23 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Natural law vs legal positivism. Adding the quotes shows King's natural law tendencies. By saying Hitler's actions were "legal" it shows that he doesn't totally agree that it was legal.

If that makes sense.

[–]raideratoLP.org 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

His point is that they were legal, but not moral, and that meaning doesn't change if legal isn't stressed.

I still don't see how the meaning changes by stressing "legal".

It doesn't matter. I just want to see what everyone upvoting him thinks it means.

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[–]ShiftyTheHobo 64 ポイント65 ポイント  (40子コメント)

Never forget that Christian values are never mentioned when discussing the Reverend King. He is a martyr for a cause he wouldn't even support today. BLM is the antithesis of his message.

[–]doyouwantapizzarollLeft Libertarian. Orwell fan. For Rojava! 141 ポイント142 ポイント  (35子コメント)

Really? How so? Basically everything I've read about MLK indicates that he was far more radical than most realize.

Gonna dig up some quotes:

1

“I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens' Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice […] who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action.’” - Letter from a Birmingham Jail, 16 April 1963

2

“In a sense, you could say we’re involved in the class struggle.” –Quote to New York Times reporter, José Igelsias, 1968.

3

“Call it democracy, or call it democratic socialism, but there must be a better distribution of wealth within this country for all God’s children.” – Speech to the Negro American Labor Council, 1961.

4

“We must recognize that we can’t solve our problem now until there is a radical redistribution of economic and political power… this means a revolution of values and other things. We must see now that the evils of racism, economic exploitation and militarism are all tied together… you can’t really get rid of one without getting rid of the others… the whole structure of American life must be changed. America is a hypocritical nation and [we] must put [our] own house in order.”- Report to SCLC Staff, May 1967.

5

“The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and evils of racism.” –Speech to SCLC Board, March 30, 1967.

[–]PoppyOPRights aren't inherent 92 ポイント93 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Like a lot of history, MLK had been whitewashed as fuck.

[–]tryfap 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

During the lifetime of great revolutionaries, the oppressing classes constantly hounded them, received their theories with the most savage malice, the most furious hatred and the most unscrupulous campaigns of lies and slander.

After their death, attempts are made to convert them into harmless icons, to canonize them, so to say, and to hallow their names to a certain extent for the 'consolation' of the oppressed classes and with the object of duping the latter, while at the same time robbing the revolutionary theory of its substance, blunting its revolutionary edge and vulgarizing it.

– Vladimir Lenin

[–]HungryHungryCamel 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Yeah almost none of those even sniff being radical. The only one that does is the quote that says the word "socialism", so we're freaking out about it. The guy frequently spoke out against the economic exploitation of the black community, which the libertarian platform should embrace since it was government sponsored

[–]doyouwantapizzarollLeft Libertarian. Orwell fan. For Rojava! 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (7子コメント)

“We must recognize that we can’t solve our problem now until there is a radical redistribution of economic and political power… this means a revolution of values and other things. We must see now that the evils of racism, economic exploitation and militarism are all tied together… you can’t really get rid of one without getting rid of the others… the whole structure of American life must be changed. America is a hypocritical nation and [we] must put [our] own house in order.”- Report to SCLC Staff, May 1967.

How is this not radical? How is saying 'capitalism is evil' and comparing it to racism not radical?

[–]HungryHungryCamel 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

He does nothing of the sort in that quote.... racism was obviously very real at the time of this quote, so was the economic exploitation of the black populace, and the militarism of the government specifically against people of color. I think it's a fairly rational thought, which we use regularly in libertarian thought, the state cannot keep its militarization and not also keep its exploitation of the people.

I don't think MLK was some great libertarian economist, but was definitely a libertarian leaning ethicist. He thought that increasing the economic freedom of the marginalized peoples would loosen society's hold on them in other aspects, which I think is extremely noble - and correct. He's not wrong in saying that the road to freedom for lower classes is greater redistribution of wealth, because it is. We as libertarians just believe that it is through free markets that this can be realized, and King was actively fighting for black people's right to freely engage in the marketplace. Maybe that wasn't his end game, but these cherry-picked quotes do not show him as some radical left-wing fanatic.

[–]Suic 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (5子コメント)

He's effectively calling for a full on revolution. That in my book is fairly radical.

[–]ChamberedEcho 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

pff Who cares what your book says? The dictionary says "....." it's practically the definition of radical.

[–]Suic 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

What?

[–]ChamberedEcho 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

"advocating or based on thorough or complete political or social change; representing or supporting an extreme or progressive section of a political party."

[–]MrAnderson345 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

How about ... he was a radical, but .. There isn't anything wrong with being a radical.

[–]Suic 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ahh so you're agreeing with me, or apparently the dictionary does. thanks for clearing that up.

[–]potatoslaughter 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

... and I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today: my own government.

.

We have destroyed their two most cherished institutions: the family and the village. We have destroyed their land and their crops. We have cooperated in the crushing of the nation’s only noncommunist revolutionary political force, the unified Buddhist Church. We have supported the enemies of the peasants of Saigon. We have corrupted their women and children and killed their men.

Had very controversial views on Vietnam, before public opinion turned on the war. Roundly condemned for linking the civil rights movement to US actions abroad. Even caused a rift among civil rights groups never healed before his assassination. He did not die a popular man.

[–]myballsyourchin 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wealth redistribution and class struggles are tenants of communism, which is a radical ideology.

[–]darthhayekTrump supporter 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (6子コメント)

He's one of my favorite mostly peaceful Communists, but I liked Malcom X better.

George Lincoln Rockwell is my favorite mostly peaceful Nazi.

[–]doyouwantapizzarollLeft Libertarian. Orwell fan. For Rojava! 37 ポイント38 ポイント  (4子コメント)

hayek

trump

malcom x

Dude you are a total enigma. But at least you're never boring, take an upvote

[–]collegeonebag 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

It makes sense if you read enough about each of those people instead of assuming they are incompatible based on how they are usually portrayed.

Hint: the alt-right loves Malcolm X because he supported Blacks getting their own country, which is what white nationalists want as well.

[–]OptimisticRobot 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

He renounced that position after converting to Sunni. Hayek was not a racial separatist by any means. Trump isn't really either, alt-righters just think his policy moves us in a better direction.

[–]collegeonebag 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

renounced that position

I don't really think it matters if you agreed with someone and they change their minds about one thing.

In the last months of his life, however, Malcolm X began to reconsider his support for black nationalism after meeting northern African revolutionaries who, to all appearances, were white

By all means he was much more of an anti-imperalist than superficially just for black people, and the alt-right is decidedly anti-imperialist as they are opposed to all the foreign wars.

There was a history of cooperation between the Black Muslims and the American Nazi Party

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Read+it+plox_f8033b_4815458.png

Hayek was not a racial separatist

Economic and social views are different things

[–]OptimisticRobot 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Your point was that these people aren't incompatible. Yes, if I take non overlapping portions of people's ideologies and glue them together, then they are compatible. Also, it is important the malcom changed his mind.

[–]Uplift_Yourself 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Martin Luther King was not a C/communist.

[–]FranciscoRG 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Point 1: I agree

Point 2: I agree

Points 3-5:Okay I like his social policy, but f-ck his economic ones.

[–]tchoobLibertarian Socialist 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The two go hand in hand.

[–]On-The-SpotDiceSpin 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I get the impression you have no idea what you are talking about.

[–]Hippo-CratesFacts > Theory 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (0子コメント)

He is a martyr for a cause he wouldn't even support today. BLM is the antithesis of his message.

That's bullshit. You can say that BLM isn't as religious as MLK. You can say that MLK would have problems with some aspects of the BLM movement. However, MLK would obviously support the broader message of BLM and be willing to work with them, in the same way as he found common ground with people like Malcom X.

[–]sahhhnnn 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you choose to spread misinformation, or do you honestly believe your own bullshit? Honest question.

[–]wellactuallyhmmit's not "left vs. right", it's state vs rights 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah thats not accurate

[–]jyanoshik 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Burning down the reichstag? Inciting revolt and getting arrested and put in prison?

[–]doyouwantapizzarollLeft Libertarian. Orwell fan. For Rojava! 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think King is talking about the Holocaust and other horrors Hitler created after he took power. It's an anti-authoritarian message.

[–]jyanoshik 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Aaaah ok, guess I misinterpreted

[–]doyouwantapizzarollLeft Libertarian. Orwell fan. For Rojava! 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, without the context it's a pretty understandable mistake. I had to doublecheck the letter he wrote. In the very next sentence he says something like "In Hitler's Germany..."

Who knew memes could be misleading? ¯\(ツ)

[–]bjt23utilitarian 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Burning down the reichstag?

Uhh Hitler said that was totes the commies. Are you really gonna believe the Reds over him?

[–]RightIntoMyNoose 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It was never discovered who burned the reichstag. Hitler used it to persecute communists

[–]Yugotttit 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We were taught in school that the Nazis burned the Reichstag but reading on it now it seems that's a conspiracy theory like "Bush did 911". The Nazis absolutely used the burning to their benefit but that doesn't prove they were responsible for it.

[–]loomynartylenny 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, the (unsuccessful) Munich Putsch (1928 iirc) wasn't exactly legal though.

[–]Aerik 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

youre the same assholes who want businesses to be able to ban black people

[–]SuaveCroutonNeoliberal - EU supporter 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not true. Hitler actually broke plenty of statutes established in the German court of law, several judges even initially tried to criticize and argue the legality of his actions at the beginning of his reign, he just wielded immense power so institutions were replaced and his word became above all written law. During the Nuremberg trials several German statutes were used to prosecute the suspects.

Also MLK was a radical socialist, aka this sub's boogeyman, and would be pretty against the modern libertarian movement.

[–]painstorm 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This here! Comment should be up there.

The judges did Nazi that coming. ;)

[–]You_Know-Who 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Rearmed Germany, very much illegal.

[–]TruthinessHurts205 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not according to Germany at the time...

[–]ReasonReaderHard Line Libertarian 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Actually, it wasn't. The defendants at Nuremburg were convicted under statutes that were current in Germany during the Nazi regime.

[–]Idontknowmuch 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

However they were never convicted for peacetime genocide which was lawful back then.

[–]BirchBlack 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

A quote from a communist on /r/Libertarian. Strange times indeed.

[–]Luminous_FantasyTrump Supporter 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm prepared to receive downvotes but to imply politics works in absolutes is stupid. If Dr King was a communist, (I'm not sure if that's valid I haven't looked into it) he can still make points that are true. I despise the Communist ideology but I can hear them out on their points.

[–]MadSkillzGH 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The sad reality is that to most of the people in the country, politics does work in absolutes. That's why the right wing can't stand CNN and the left wing can't stand Fox News. They think that since they have some opposing beliefs/values/ideas, they can't make any good points, and are always wrong.

Edit: just to be clear, I'm agreeing with the comment above. It shouldn't be that way. I'm just stating that it unfortunately is to most.

[–]handsfreefrapping 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yet another Ad Hitlerum argument

[–]Peoplesmellalot5 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's like you want tyranny to spread just so you can keep making your irrelevant ideology appeal to the afraid and paranoid.

[–]HeNeverLies4Actual Black Person 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wish we felt this way about America's disgusting fucking immigration laws

[–]datums 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is 100% absolutely not the case.

Hitler took power mostly by force. The whole "he was elected fair and square" trope is total bullshit.

[–]ebone23John Galt's cabin boy 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, never forget:

Boy, it sure burns me to have a national holiday for that pro-communist philanderer, Martin Luther King. I voted against this outrage time and time again as a Congressman. What an infamy that Ronald Reagan approved it! We can thank him for our annual Hate Whitey Day....

X-Rated Martin Luther King was a world-class philanderer who beat up his paramours, seduced underage girls and boys, and made a pass at Ralph Abernathy.

  • Blessed St. Paul, the elder.

[–]idle_voluptuary 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (13子コメント)

So MLK is cool but the civil rights act is not? Got it. It only works when it suits your ideology, right? Fucking simps

[–]raideratoLP.org 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (12子コメント)

MLK is very cool.

Forcing people to be cool with MLK is not cool.

[–]idle_voluptuary 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Neither is denying services to Americans who might be different than you.

[–]raideratoLP.org 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (10子コメント)

I agree.

But forcing people to do things I think are cool, isn't cool.

[–]I_AM_ALWAYS_ANGRY 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No it was not legal, thats why there was so many lies around what he was doing and everything was so comparmentalized.

[–]Iamafrog073 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'll make it legal!

[–]alaric11 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Umm. No it wasn't.

[–]LuigiDude16 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

See? Hitler wasn't so bad after all!

[–]Iangator 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Um since when are crimes against fucking humanity legal??!

[–]snorkleboy 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hitler burned down the riechstag and used the ensuing chaos to crack down on his political opponents. No, not everything he did was legal.

[–]HoldenTite 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, except for setting the Reichstag on fire. And forming gangs to intimidate his political opponents. But yeah, sure.

[–]MrInRageous 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, except for those actions that were blatant war crimes. And I'm not sure if waltzing into Poland was legal under international law.

[–]Otista 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Letter from a Birmingham Jail King, Jr."

i don't know why I'm the first to link this.