(**DISCLAIMER** Before you go on trying to defend this person, let me just say that this is my personal experience with her.)
WHO: Jessica Hope (On Facebook)/PoprockGrey (on FA)
WHERE: Facebook
WHAT: Crow Wings
WHEN: December 31, 2010 - August 15, 2011
PROOF:
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k54
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k54
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k54
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k54
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k54
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k54
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k54
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k54
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k54
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k54
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k54
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k54
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k54
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k54
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k54
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k54
EXPLAIN: Ok, so what had happened here was I commissioned Poprock back in December for some crow wings. I was having a different builder make a head for me, so I thought it’d be a good idea to make a collaboration of multiple builders for a partial suit. Poprock was saying, at the time, that she was really desperate for commissions, so I thought I could help her out by hiring her. I was talking with her on Second Life about the commission I had in mind, and even modeling it after a different builders design. When I asked for a price quote, she said that it would cost me $125, which I thought was a reasonable price. Afterwards, I asked Poprock how long it would take to make them, and she said that it would only take a couple of months to do. So, from there I sent her a duct tape dummy of my arm, and an envelope containing the down payment for my wings. ($50) In about 2 weeks she began working on the wings and had a livestream video of her working on the wings. In a couple of days she sent me a picture of the progress of the wings. They looked pretty rough so I hoped that they’d look better over time, and in all honesty I was just happy that I was getting the commission made. Periodically, I would check in to see if any progress was made on the wings. At first I was asking once a week because I was really excited having this commission done. Poprock told me, whenever I asked, that no progress had been made on them since the livestream video. I started asking less often because I wanted to give her some space and not put any pressure on her.
A month passes and I ask about the progress of my wings. She again says that no progress has been made. When the next month passes, she asks on Facebook for some money so that she could buy something. Out of generosity, I gave her that money and we both agreed that it would be put towards paying off my wings. ($35) I was hoping that by paying her a little more to what I owed, that it would motivate her to work on my wings. To my disappointment, another month passes and zero progress has been made. Yet again, she asks for money for another thing (which I don’t know what it was) so I gladly obliged and paid her the remainder of the money on my wings. ($40) Of course I was hoping that some progress was made on my wings by now...she tells me that barely anything had been done. I was remaining patient as possible with her because I knew that if I said the wrong thing, she’d probably get mad at me and take even longer on making them. It’s around April 2011 this time, and I ask her if she could give me a deadline on when the wings might be finished. At first she tells me that she’ll have them done by the end of the month. As April came to a close, I asked if she was almost done, and Poprock told me that only one wing was done, but I would have to wait a bit longer. Also, to state, there were multiple times when she was guilt tripping me by explaining why the wings were taking so long, and she even offered me a full refund in May because she was feeling really upset about some stuff. Being a nice guy, I told her that I was willing to wait for the wings instead. (I fell for her guilt trip)
Eventually, she told me that the new deadline would be at Anthrocon 2011. Even as the days drew closer to Anthrocon, I still asked if any progress had been made on the wings. She dodged the question by saying they’d be done by Anthrocon. So, Anthrocon arrives and I eagerly wait to finally pick up my wings at Poprock’s booth. When I get there, she tells me that they aren’t done. She goes on to say that she has a bunch of commissions in progress, that she was booked until Christmas, and that she’d fit my wing commission “in there, somewhere”. In other words, it wasn’t a priority to her. Let it be noted that she constantly was asking for more commissions as each month went by, while my wings remained untouched. Nearly a month after Anthrocon goes by and I asked if she had done anything with my wings. Wonder of wonders, nothing had been done at all. So, what did I do? I spent 2 hours online talking to her trying to motivate her to work on my wings and other people’s commissions. She agreed to that, and I was glad that some progress was about to be made. One more month goes by, and I ask...she tells me nothing’s been done.
In this 8 month timespan, only one wing was finished and the other one hadn’t even been started on. At this point, my patience ran thin and I had to ask for a refund. She was highly confused by this and didn’t understand why. I explained to her that I was tired of waiting for them. Poprock flips out on me and begins asking all of these questions of why I didn’t say anything. I told her that I was trying to be a nice guy, but in all honesty, I was being too lenient with her. So she tells me that she’s only going to give me 30% back of what I paid once she sells the wings to someone else. First off, how many crows are out there who have the exact same arm size as me, and want the wings? Secondly, only 30%?! I paid her to do a service and she didn’t provide the service at all!
Eventually, I found out that she’s been manipulating other furs as well. Apparently, all of the commissions she was asking people to take from her, were just excuses so she could take the money from them and run off with it. There have been multiple reports from people who commissioned her, where they’ve been waiting up to two years for a commission. Not only that, some people didn’t even get a refund or any kind of update from her. She would often get pissed at them when they asked for an update and she would even go as far as to block them from all form of contact. 14 other people have reported cases similar to mine. In addition to that, some people who actually got the commissions from her were highly disappointed. One of the suits she made at a con even fell apart. The stitching was bad and it couldn’t even hold itself up for a second.
Sorry that this is so long, but all of this had to be explained in explicit detail so I could warn others of this horrible experience I had with this builder. I really worked hard to try and be her friend, but she was just using me the entire time. On one final note, I found out from a friend that Poprock was taking about me behind my back at Otakon and she told him that I hadn’t paid for my wings in full and that I was being extremely rude to her and pressuring her for the wings. Both of these statements are completely false! So that’s my experience here. Please, PLEASE, beware of her!
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Edited at 2011-08-21 02:17 am (UTC)
Geez, man. Sorry that happened to you.
I've never heard of a fursuit that actually fell
apart before. >o<
Thanks for the beware!
yeah i see she claims harassment in one of those screenshots. WTF :/
Hmm, I only have sold ONE fullsuit, a very few pieces and I always make sure to talk with the commissioners before, during, and after the creation.
Due to that, many commissioners have become good friends, and I let them know they have a free 1 year warranty if anything is to happen to their product.
Also, no one ever says WHO it is I supposedly ran off with's money. And I make posts EVERYWHERE asking these claimed people to contact me. FOR MONTHS. Not a single person has come into contact with me so I now see them as "fake" people that a competitor furuit "maker" has made up to slander and spread libel about me.
I'm curious, did you see and agree to a TOS? How about a queue of projects slated to be completed before yours? I see no mention of it anywhere, but that's generally pretty standard as well. I think your best bet is to either allow her to finish them and receive them, or let her finish them and get the refund, minus the deposit. This post is sorely lacking in details surrounding the actual agreement, and that will help people to understand what's to be expected much more clearly.
Also, in the future, it would help to be a little more clear if you are having problems with the way the maker is proceeding with the commission. I know if it was me reading those posts you made, I'd have not been able to tell you were upset with the progress. We're not mind readers ;3 Nine times out of ten, if we know you have concerns, makers will address them. I've got this feeling that this was a case of misunderstanding how you really felt, especially because of how you said in this post that you thought the wing looked rough, but in all the screenshots you kept saying how nice you thought they were coming along.
Tl;dr- I think you both have a little fault in this one, and I hope both parties can learn from this experience and come to an amicable resolution.
I will agree that when I first started, I did NOT have a TOS. I asked you later once it was made and written out, if you agree'd to it. You said YES.
This is why I would tell you constantly that I did not like speaking over Steam chat ECT. You still insisted.
Also, not 3 days before you randomly said you wanted the refund, you said it was fine. You never ONCE said you needed them by a certain date 100%.
If need be, I will defend myself in the court of law, and by that I can subpoena Facebook and possibly Steam for all the information, IP addresses and anything in which would be evidence against my case.
As it stands, you have been slandering my name and posting screenshots with omitted information. You and many others have been filed on FA for it and the admins have removed the journals and warned you.
If need be, I WILL be pursuing this in the court of law. I will NOT tolerate my up and coming fursuiting business being slandered, people spreading libel and the mud throwing.
Also, I remember reading you claimed to need the money? Then why did you get the same product commissioned from another maker?
Why don't you sit down and post a proper rebuttal with any proof you can supply, instead of a childish rant?
WHO? No one EVER tells me, no one EVER contacts me. My information is posted EVERYWHERE and I ALWAYS ask people to message me. Not ONCE have I gotten pissy at anyone for asking for updates. If you paid attention, I am constantly apologizing and always thankful for people. Most every stream, I thank people, I great people as soon as I see them enter. I always try and make the commissioning experience as plesant as possible.
So I ask you this; Where is this proof of these 14 people? I have not seen q single one for about the past year you and your friends have been flinging mud at me all over Facebook.
I realize your frustrations on the part of being made to wait so long for your wings. Fursuit commissions can take a great deal of time and a lot more effort than many newer builders envision. It seems obvious this was the case for Poprock, however your persistence on being extra communicative may have been taken as hostile and a bit stressful. Granted she still is obligated to either provide the wings or the money, I also think that a little more patience on your angle could have been warranted. 8 months for a project this considerable with out having more prior understanding of what it takes to do this sort of work isn't really uncommon, especially if a builder is working part time. In summation, I think the situation could have been handled with a little more patience from the OP, and with a bit more professionalism by the builder.
While I'm not excusing her for taking so long and not having a ToS, if you had a problem, you needed to tell her clearly. She took much longer than the (very rough) estimate she gave you, but from what I'm reading, you kept telling her to take her time and it was okay.
If you needed it by a specific date, you should have told her that was the date you needed it. Not "maybe" or "if you can". This leaves too much room for misunderstandings.
Again, not excusing the 8-month wait. I just feel communication wasn't as clear as it could have been.
Also, I want more proof that other people are having problems with her or her product. Not "This once happened at a con" or "A person told me"
In about Novemeber of last year, a friend came to me asking for a commission. I was a bit uneasy since they were a friend of a "builder" that had attempted to slander me and spread bad crap about me. It took sometime to make me willing to take the commission but I eventually agreed as I was in desperate need of money, and I love taking on a new challenge [arm wings in this case].
I started work as soon as the funds were to me (1/17/11). I spent quite sometime on them and got lots of them done. Because of this, I started working on other commissions that were due soon as well.
Ever so often, I would work on them a little more, maybe not livestreaming, but working none the less. At this time, I had a head, a fullsuit and tails to make.
I will admit that since there was no real set time for completion, I did push it to the side for a few weeks (possibly months). Then, I got accepted fora dealers table at AC and I started going legit crazy, trying to work to get enough money at my retail job, and to make tails and handpaws and such for my table. I also finished the head I had been working on, and started the long and complicated process of a heavily padded, different style and patterned fullsuit. Much of my time was spent between that and my AC table.
All the while, I spoke with my at the time friend. Also, once the head mentioned above was completed, I posted many pictures on FB. I was harassed and told my work looked like shit and it was just horrible. (I will have to see where I stored the screenshots of those) I was honestly in tears almost every night over it, being told about the crap they were saying, saying I was a horrible builder and I should just go away from the fandom. I was also threatened with physical violence at AC (they deleted it before I could get a S.S. because I was scared and didn't know what to do at the time) I even contacted Uncle Kage about it because I was just terrified of being beaten up.
Because of all of that, I got a bit behind in my work since I admit, I do have bouts of depression where I just sleep all day. This was an especially depressing time for me where much of my work was completely halted. I know this is not an excuse, but I am just explaining what was happening at that time.
This time of slack went on for quite sometime and they even went as far as harassing my commissioner and just going on and on and on about how it looked like shit. I countless times thought of just refunding everyone and going away to die from the fandom.
During that time, I slept little so I was extremely frazzled and even forgot to eat at times since I HAD to get things done for people. I worked on his wings a bit, but my main focus was the fullsuit.
During this time, I would do my best to message him as much as possible, keep him up to date, and regrettably, let him know things were not going quickly.
During my time of depressing, I asked him if he would prefer a full refund since I would be the canceller. He countless times said "no, it is ok." and would them sympathize with me. He countless times said it was ok, and would ask if it would be *possible* to get it for a certain time. I said most every time I would *try* my best.
AC was around the corner and I let him know they would NOT be ready for the con and he was a bit sad, but ok with it and understood. Especially since I had not slept for days, trying my best to work on things to make people happy. As AC came, he came by my table and I apologized profusely, and told him it would be done as quickly as I could. He seemed ok with it and we hung out at my table a lot during that weekend. We were going to hang out (as I was with many people) but once the dealers room was closed, I would go to my room and just pass out. (literally half hour after DD closed, to 9am the next morning)
After the con, I had a scheduled month off from making fursuits. Regardless of that, I still worked on things. His wings being once of them. I kept in contact with him and everything was fine. He asked for an update on the wings and I happily obliged. I usually run a private stream for a commissioner so they can see all angles of the work. He approved it, liked it and gave me one last measurement for the arm band top to have the elastic added. We both left the stream with good feelings and the commission still on.
Not even a week later, there is a complete change in attitude.
He wanted a complete refund out of nowhere, said he was hurting for money since he lost his job and all these things saying his family was broke or something. I understood, but was very confused so I inquired further. Just a lot of random things.
So, I did a little digging and found out he was actually getting the same commission from the person that was attempting to slander and spread libel about me earlier in the year (the time of little work and immense depression). So honestly, I felt I was being taken advantage of, so I inquired about that, and got no response to it but a lot of other words.
I was told of his friends posts on FA with edited screenshots and ommission to make me look bad. I filed a trouble ticket, and an admin removed it. Then I found he had done the same. Filed another ticket and it was also removed only after trying to defend myself only to find he had blocked me. Then I went to try and find evidence and it turned out he blocked me from his Facebook page as well. A friend told me that he is spreading lots of crap about me though. I have asked them to get screenies, but have not heard back yet.
As it stands, I feel betrayed, and less likely to let things slide in the future. I will be 100% professional in the future, even with my BF and best friends. It makes me super unhappy as I wanted to be lax with things and end up with friend with things I have made for them, not people that have commissioned me and have been a customer.
And I'm really sorry this happened to you, especially when you were only trying to help the artist out. I really hope u can salvage your money's worth :(
I also don't like the very first thing said via the OP "Before you go defending this person..." Why are you expecting us to blindly defend someone without any reason to? You sound as though you're being defensive or something and makes me suspicious of your post.
Until then, I can't help but feel like some things are being a touch exaggerated.
We have no proof on either side! The OP's screen shots feel like half of a conversation with the real stuff left out...the artist's side seems just as one sided.
Regardless of what the OP planned to use the money for that has nothing to do with the original purpose for the refund. If he/she told you she was unhappy and was going to another artist with the refund would you have given it to them? If I gave a "month or two" deadline I would expect it within that time frame. If not, I'd find someone else who could follow deadlines.
If I received threats of physical violence I would have screen capped that faster then my next breath! I CANNOT believe that the artist wouldn't have capped that or at least left the window open to cap later. This just feels like pity harvesting. Just say, "I was stressed so I got behind".
This whole post is ridiculous and I feel insulted by both parties involved. Don't post another sentence. Don't respond to another post till this group can get some real proof! Because from where I'm sitting, this is a double beware...I wouldn't work with either of you.
This is an extremely intelligent and fair body of impartial reviewers. We're all trying to see both sides in the most neutral light. The heresay, accusations and claims of no fault on either side is so childish I can hardly stand it.
I don't believe ANYTHING either party has said at this point.
As for the orignal poster, you were a nice guy it happends but sometimes you have to be clear with a deadline and mean it. Sometimes putting a gentle foot down with a firm deadline is needed. I hate to say this but I seriously don't like doing business with close friends personally I seem to allow my friends to slack more then I would someone else.
Sometimes friendship can be taken advantage of and this is a good example. To the person in question. If the product is in some stage of completion for your own sake I would upload proof of product images so that you at least have a solid footing for us to believe.
To be honest with everything presented here and overflowing on my page it seems kind of like both sides are at fault.
Poprock_grey set a deadline of two months, AND Anthrocon. While I understand real life gets in the way, I can't give a pass to such botched deadlines. If a commissioner cancels for no reason out of the blue (IE say a week after they comissioned you) yeah, do the 30% refund. However if they cancel because YOU botched something up, then you should atleast take a bit of a courtesy hit for not following through. Not give them all the money but maybe 50% instead of 30%.
Not a refrence to you Poprock_grey, but a general observation I'm beginning to notice: Fursuit makers should NOT use the nonrefundable down payment as an excuse to bully people into giving them money. What if I asked for someone to commission me, 30% non refundable payment, did a little work on it and strung them along until they felt forced to cancel? That could be a legitement scam. The vaguely made parts are then repurposed to be sold on auction.
I don't care if the buyer didn't PUSH the deadlines. That is not their responsibility. That is yours. Quit setting deadlines for yourself if you have no intention of making them. Kudos to you however, for offering the refund. That was definately something you did right, and the OP should have taken it when they had the chance if they had the slightest doubt things weren't going as they hoped
Second, Poprock_grey, your making me nervous when you draw claims of depression into this. Starfinder pulled the whole "Waa my landlord is mean/pet troubles/whatever else" and so on whenever she decided she didn't want to do work. What gets me is if you knew you had work to do, and that you were depressed, why did you ask for more comissions? The only thing that makes me really want to believe you is that you did offer a refund early in the game.
OP; You shouldn't ever treat a commisioner as a friend. Once you two enter a buisness agreement, you switch from friendship to buisness relationship. You absolutely have to communicate with the person you hired, and that means saying "Hey you're taking to long. Finish it by this "reasonable" date." I know your afraid to feel like your pressuring the artist into not doing your work, but if that is the case then the artist is clearly meriting a beware. Some times it takes a firm foot to not be pushed over. Once you get your comission, then you can return to friend mode.
Of course this post is almost all based on my opinion on what's provided. I'd love to see more proof from Poprock_grey because I do believe she has truth to what she's saying and I has had many successful deals with commissioners aswell as botched ones. I don't think either of you should quite be a beware quite yet, but you both should rethink your professionalism when working on the internet.
"I have had my name dragged in the mud, users have been blocked, people go around and were spreading rumors that another builder supposedly had to fix multiple suits from me, that I have tons of supposed commissions I have run off with.
Hmm, I only have sold ONE fullsuit, a very few pieces and I always make sure to talk with the commissioners before, during, and after the creation.
Due to that, many commissioners have become good friends, and I let them know they have a free 1 year warranty if anything is to happen to their product.
Also, no one ever says WHO it is I supposedly ran off with's money. And I make posts EVERYWHERE asking these claimed people to contact me. FOR MONTHS. Not a single person has come into contact with me so I now see them as "fake" people that a competitor furuit "maker" has made up to slander and spread libel about me."
She is true here, as a good friend of hers online, I have seen her sell one fullsuit fursuit, and multiple parts, all with happy endings and if they have a problem, they almost always come back for their fix ups.
I have also heard these rumours, but not a single customer name in them. As someone who is about to commission Poprock, I believe her more than I believe the OP. Now I know "you're being biased". Well I am, the rumours are most definitely false, even I have tried to track these apparent 'upset customers' and getting fursuits fixed by other makers, and turned up empty.
Poprocks had alot of attacks on facebook and has even had to remake her account more than once due to flamers and reporters there :/ Not to mention her medical issues as of late months that took alot of money out of her pocket.
OP, life does get in the way, maybe it would pay to research more?
Also, i'll try and get screenshots for my own claims here, her illnesses, happy customers and trying to find the apparent 'upset customers'.
1)We have asked for both a cut and a font change from the OP. That is where that stands. We will continue to work on that.
2)Keep it polite. Yes, I understand that feelings are running hot on this but I encourage everyone to read through what has already been said before commenting further. There is a lot of repetition within the thread that is just winding in on itself.
Thankyou
PM40
Plus the tantrum poprock threw in a previous comments plus throwing around legal jargon about subpoenas and lawsuits and such, that just makes me never want to ever have anything to do with her, much less buy something from her.
This is coming from someone who doesn't know anything about past drama with poprock. This is solely from viewing evidence provided by OP and poprock's responses. I could care less about past drama with her, because this is what's happening now.
Please let me know so I may. I was trying to contact you, but I am unable to do so.