cahn: (Default)
[personal profile] cahn
So -- I'd been reading Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, by Eliezer Yudkowsky. Which I actually like rather a lot! It ended around the same time A. was born, so it was pretty much perfect to read while I was nursing or otherwise occupied with mindless infant-rearing things.

The ending, though, bothered me, and I couldn't really articulate why until I read Sorcerer to the Crown, which superficially has a similar ending but -- but really, really doesn't.

Here's the thing: In the middle of HPMoR, Hermione is fridged. The author got a lot of flack for this, and for being unfeminist, etc., and he kept defending himself.

Well. At the end, Harry resurrects Hermione. Then, Harry becomes the Wise Mentor who sends her out as the New Sparkly Magic Super Heroine.

"See!" said Eliezer Yudkowsky. "Now Hermione is the HERO. Isn't that super-feminist of me?! What more do you want?" (Okay. I'm paraphrasing.)

And -- I mean -- it's better than Hermione staying fridged, or Hermione not being a Sparkly Heroine. So he does get some points for that, I guess! But it's still irritating. Harry is specifically set up as the superior to Hermione -- she may be the chess queen, who gets to go everywhere and do everything, but he's the chess king and the chessmaster, the puller of strings, the prime mover, and the prime chessboard piece without whom the entire game self-destructs.

It's still about him, and setting him up as a direct superior to her. The fact that she gets some subsidiary power -- through his gift, by a choice he gives her, and used for his ends -- is only a secondary consideration. (It's a little more complicated than that, and he does give some lip service to the idea that it is a bit objectionable. But it doesn't change that it is obnoxious.)

(I find the original rather less irritating on this point. The Rowling books are about Harry, yes, with Hermione and Ron sidekick friends, but they're all on the same level. The books are not about Harry manipulating the world and sending Hermione out on errands for him.)

(Tangentially, in Fringe Season 4 I thought they were going to go this way, with Olivia Dunham moving towards the role of Wise Mentor to a young hero blue!Lincoln Lee, and I was very annoyed when they pretty much dropped that thread entirely. Because it would have been so cool to have the Puller of Strings be the female superhero!)

Also, by the way, the author wants HPMoR to get a Hugo nomination. Although I appreciated a lot of the things he was doing, I vote no on this. Here are the reasons:

1. It is fanfic. You know that I am obviously not dissing it on these grounds. I don't think anyone is surprised that I think fanfic is important and valuable and can do really interesting things. However, fanfic is not original fiction. They have different roles and objectives, and perhaps more to the point, require a different skill set. Fanfic is primarily in dialogue with an already-existing canon, and as such, good fanfic will often have a lot of canon analysis, and one needs specific writing skills to both be able to support that critical thinking while still supporting the original canon. (Some authors of original fiction are terrible at fanfic. Here I am thinking of Lawrence Yep, who I mistakenly thought was a terrible author for years because his Star Trek professional fanfic was so awful and out-of-character.)

Original fiction is about telling an original story and requires skills in original worldbuilding and characterization that fanfic does not, generally, need. Obviously there are exceptions (I can think of some really awesome original worldbuilding and characterization that still fall under the fanfic umbrella), but HPMoR is not one of those exceptions, as its very title points out. All the characters are different (sometimes very different) from their Rowling counterparts, but in ways in which they are still in dialogue with the canon characters; for all the major characters it's pretty clear how he got from hither to hence.

So no, I do not think HPMoR should be nominated for an award that I feel should reward the kind of writing skills that are present in original fic.(*)

2. It's not that good, good enough I would nominate it for a Hugo. I mean, I find it sort of on the level of Steven Brust's Vlad books? It's got some fun ideas, some good plot arcs, some places where I was really excited about the action and really wanted to know what happened next. It never made me so engaged with the characters that I actually cared that much about them (to be fair, this may have been partially because of reading it via installment, and to be fair to Brust, I care a lot about e.g. Kiera), or excited about a piece of original worldbuilding (as opposed to the specifically fanfictional reactional response to Rowling, which I really loved). Compare Ancillary Justice, which did both. Heck, compare Three-Body Problem, which had maybe one character of note but had some rather preposterously interesting ideas.

3. It has a number of writing flaws even on the fanfic level. The biggest one, I think, is the plot point involving, well, the big reveal from Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone. This is also a big plot point in HPMoR. Because pretty much everyone who is reading HPMoR has read HPPS, it wasn't at all surprising, and the big emotional climax came across as "Oh, didn't we know this already? What is Harry going on about? Oh, right, he didn't know yet," which is... not what you want your big emotional climax to evoke in your readers.

But in general, it was written in installments and it shows. The kind of story it was at the beginning is not the kind of story it was at the end.

Again, I still enjoyed it a lot. But I'm looking for something more for my Hugo nominations.

4. See above re: Hermione. This by itself would not necessarily be enough to sink a novel, for me, but can be indicative of a kind of thoughtlessness about the worldbuilding that can often sink novels for me.

5. The author kind of annoys me. Usually I would say that just being a jerk shouldn't affect what I think about your book, unless it affects your actual writing (hi, all the posts I've ever made about Card), but the fact is, usually when I read books I don't have the author's opinions on the actual book staring me in the face. But when you're posting something installment by installment and writing Author Notes on each chapter, and one of the Author's Notes threatens to not finish the story if your readers can't come up with a good solution to a character's dilemma... nope, you're being a jerk. I felt like saying, "Fine, then don't finish the story. If you don't feel like you owe the story itself to finish it, then don't let me get in your way, whether or not I can jump through your ridiculous hoops." Also, I get annoyed by people campaigning for a Hugo nomination. Perhaps this is not a good reason, but since it is nevertheless a reason in my brain I'm putting it on the list.

It occurs to me that part of what annoys me is that I think he's trying to have his cake and eat it too. To go back to point (1), he is trying to capitalize off of being a HP fanfic -- because let's face it, could he have gotten nearly as many readers for Self-Insert Scientist Boy In Generic Fantasy World? No. He could not. (And I'm not sure he has the specific writing skills to pull it off, either. Rosemary Kirstein did something similar and pulled it off, but she manifestly does have the requisite skills -- and I note she never got nominated for a Hugo.) And to capitalize off of that and at the same time argue he should be nominated for an original-fic award: I think that's quite disingenuous.

(*) Yes, I know that I've just described why one could very well categorize Sorcerer to the Crown as Heyer AU fanfic. My answer to that is, if you write a book that is this charming you can override all my stated preferences and I don't even care LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU ALL THE AWARDS FOR THIS ONE PLEASE. On a more serious note, it's not in character- or plot- dialogue with Heyer as HPMoR indisputably is with HP, even if it is in worldbuilding dialogue with Heyer to a certain extent.

Date: 2015-09-17 10:45 pm (UTC)
rymenhild: Single-bladed axe, shining with green reflected light. (the green knight's green axe)
From: [personal profile] rymenhild
I hate HPMoR. I hate its smug mansplainy "I can min-max Harry Potter" mode of existence. I hate the way that lots of its readers don't know the fanfic world and don't understand how mediocre HPMoR's characterization is in context. It just makes me angry. (NB: When I read it it wasn't finished, but I didn't read to what was the end at that time; I gave up about halfway through.) If it earns a Hugo I will throw things, but I really doubt it will, for many of the reasons you mentioned.

(Sorry for tossing my HPMoR rant at your much better-reasoned points.)

Date: 2015-09-17 11:37 pm (UTC)
seekingferret: Photo of me with my 2012 Purim beard, with stripes shaven into it. (Default)
From: [personal profile] seekingferret
I did not enjoy the seventy-odd chapters of HPMOR that I read all that much, and do not think it worthy of a Hugo, but I definitely think that fanfiction should be considered for the Hugo and don't consider your first argument a valid one.

Date: 2015-09-24 02:38 pm (UTC)
seekingferret: Photo of me with my 2012 Purim beard, with stripes shaven into it. (Default)
From: [personal profile] seekingferret
No, you're definitely not the only ones, I have lots of friends who are fans, which is the main reason I've read as much as I have, and why in my completist mode I will probably force my way through eventually. They tend to be not people who are generally fanfic readers, though. (There is a perverse part of me that aspires, upon completing my reading, to post the following passive-aggressive message to Facebook "I have spent much time reflecting on the fact that many people I like insist HPMOR is the greatest work of fanfic they've ever read and have concluded that the only explanation is that they have not yet read "Written by the Victors"... and let the wank flow.)

(For someone who has never voted in the Hugos before this year, yes, I do have a Lot of Feelings About It. *rolls eyes at self*)

Yeah, you do, and that's fine, the main point of the Hugos is for fans to have something to argue about. I definitely also have strong, ranty feelings about works that I don't think deserved to win Hugos. I just... for me, the Hugos don't represent some sort of seal of deep literary quality, they represent the works that created the most enjoyment for the SFF Worldcon community. I don't require devastatingly original worldbuilding, I don't require science that pushes the limits of our imagination, though obviously those are things that I enjoy and will vote for.

And I'm a little politically invested in fanfic winning Hugos because I think that there are many people involved in the Worldcon community who are involved in fanfiction fandom, and I hate how that part of their/our fannish life gets pushed to the side in print SF-oriented spaces like Worldcon. I've been exchanging emails for a few weeks with the programming director of my local regional con about how we can bring more, better fanfiction programming to that con, and I think the attitude among print SF fans that fanfic does not deserve to win Hugos is part of the problem that I am trying to fight.

Date: 2015-09-18 12:50 am (UTC)
morbane: pohutukawa blossom and leaves (Default)
From: [personal profile] morbane
I enjoyed the first 80 chapters of HPMoR that I tore through when I was first exposed to it, but in a sort of reserved way, the way I enjoy Black Jewels - so much sense was sacrificed to fantasy. But I also cared about this version of the world. I read up to what was available at the time (or maybe I just read until 3am, I don't remember - I was up VERY late that night) and later, the things I heard about the author put me off continuing.

I'm puzzled by some of your fanfiction points. I don't think the demarcation between original and fanfiction is all that clear - or that it is clearer than, say, the kind of original fiction praised now and the kind of original fiction celebrated by the Hugos 25 years ago.

What about Scalzi's Redshirts, for example? It's fanfiction, but it explains its references sufficiently so that the jokes work in context.

I agree that there is a certain disingenuity in promoting your work through fandom, then claiming it is better than the original, and jonesing for an award. However, what claims is he making about the originality of the fiction?


I am also very curious about Sorceror to the Crown and the fanfic label you have given it. Heyer pastiches are not a new thing. Taking on a previous popular style is not sufficiently derivative to be considered fanfiction, I feel. What makes you say that about SttC? Or should I read it first, so you don't have to spoil me, I suppose...

Date: 2015-09-24 03:41 pm (UTC)
seekingferret: Photo of me with my 2012 Purim beard, with stripes shaven into it. (Default)
From: [personal profile] seekingferret
I just don't see why legal 'publishability' should have any bearing on fanfiction's eligibility for a fannish award. The criteria defining legal publishability are largely created by Congress, decidedly not a fannish institution, let alone an international institution.

Date: 2015-09-27 08:13 pm (UTC)
thistleingrey: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thistleingrey
It has to do with who directs what can appear in a text, IMO. For the Star Trek franchise--and I was reading it in its earliest days, i.e. early 1980s--there were acquiring editors and eventually formal rules at Simon & Shuster, the publisher, about what could/n't be included. Imagine trying to impose that on true fan works. Even the shaming aspects of fan culture (FFA, etc.) can't get anything to stick amid a cheerful cacophony.

Publication has to do with an org being willing to take responsibility for making a text available. It's a second-order thing, in other words--not the fact of having been published formally but the stuff that comes with that, before and after the text's release.

ETA I've thought a lot about this as someone who has taught the Arthurian tradition in English translation. Is Arthuriana fic? No, not even the parts that were released before publication in the contemporary sense existed. Intertext, homage, pastiche, parody, and fic--they're related but people use different labels precisely because they aren't exactly the same things.
Edited Date: 2015-09-27 08:17 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-09-29 12:51 am (UTC)
thistleingrey: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thistleingrey
Ah--I'd clarify my earlier assertion: some of anything can be fic, including Arthuriana. I meant only that I disagree with people who think that all Arthuriana after Malory, or Geoffrey of Monmouth, or wherever they feel like drawing an arbitrary line = fic.

Date: 2015-09-30 02:25 pm (UTC)
seekingferret: Photo of me with my 2012 Purim beard, with stripes shaven into it. (Default)
From: [personal profile] seekingferret
Hmm...

I don't think you're going to get very far for me with an argument that gatekeeping is a fundamental difference between published fiction and fanfiction, for several reasons.

First, because of Sturgeon's Law, and the fact that if publishing acts as a gatekeeper of quality, it generally doesn't do a very good job of it.

Second, because there are in fact a number of kinds of gatekeeping in the world of fanfic writing- zines with editors, influential reccers and reclists, crit communities that despite your 'cheerful cacophony' theory have managed to at least in isolated circumstances influence writing conventions within a fannish community. And those gatekept fanfic communities still obey Sturgeon's law, IME!

Third, because of the underlying realities behind point one and two, which are that the things that these gatekeepers are attempting to optimize for are not necessarily quality, since quality is to some degree a matter of opinion. Virtues like saleability and marketability are what is sought by commercial publishers, and the various sorts of fanfic gatekeepers may have other virtues to optimize (or axes to grind, as the case may be).

___


I've always been the sort of person in the 'everything's fic' camp, not because I didn't recognize mechanical differences in the creation of different kind of intertextual works, but because I didn't see the point of making the distinction. [personal profile] kouredios's post "How can we say that Vergil wrote fanfic?" is the first time that I actually saw any value at all in making a distinction.

Her argument is that calling Shakespeare fanfiction actually diminishes our appreciation of what's valuable and unique in our own fannish community, and I can see the point. But it's not a point that has anything to do with the question of whether fanfic should be eligible for a fannish award for the best SFF stories.

Date: 2015-09-30 04:22 pm (UTC)
thistleingrey: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thistleingrey
If anything, the gatekeeping function publishing performs is to reduce the range of writers' voices. I don't care about relative literary merit in this context; if I've implied it somewhere, feel free to point it out.

I don't follow your sense of fannish gatekeeping because those tastemakers may be ignored, and one may yet have an audience after ignoring them. One can certainly put texts out without knowing they exist. That isn't true of published writers and texts because the publishing editor and agent socialize a writer to some extent while working with her.

Date: 2015-09-30 04:30 pm (UTC)
seekingferret: Photo of me with my 2012 Purim beard, with stripes shaven into it. (Default)
From: [personal profile] seekingferret
I don't care about relative literary merit in this context;

Then I'm thoroughly confused, because I thought that was the whole point of this conversation! Begging pardon, but what the hell are you talking about?

Date: 2015-09-30 05:50 pm (UTC)
thistleingrey: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thistleingrey
I mean that I don't care about merit as a sorting criterion between fanfic and published texts.

Date: 2015-10-01 12:27 am (UTC)
thistleingrey: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thistleingrey
I have been hampered in the recent comments by replying using my phone keyboard, sorry. Yes, I tend to define fanfic relative to publishable and published texts, in much the way that "science fiction" is a recognition-based category rather than one defined in absolute terms. Fanfic means many things to many people--trite but true, and upheld by the discussion here--but in the end, "something that is not intended for publication and could not be published in its current state" works fairly well for me, and not only in HPMoR's case. Thanks for disentangling.

Merit and enjoyment and aesthetics are good for winning awards, but not necessarily relevant to candidacy for awards. That's what I should have said earlier, I guess.

Date: 2015-10-09 03:07 pm (UTC)
seekingferret: Photo of me with my 2012 Purim beard, with stripes shaven into it. (Default)
From: [personal profile] seekingferret
Ah! I follow your argument now.

Then I would say to this that unlike the Nebulas, which are awarded by SFWA, a publishing industry group, the Hugos are given by WSFS, a fannish organization, and have generally been given with a sense that we are awarding the works that are most important to our fannish community. Fanmade amateur films have been nominated for Best Dramatic Presentation Hugos in the past, and I think this reflects the values of the Hugo voter and suggests that there is room within the Hugo process to recognize fanfiction that meets our quality standards.

Date: 2015-09-18 01:56 am (UTC)
thistleingrey: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thistleingrey
Right--without having read SttC yet, I would suggest that being in conversation with one or more existing texts differs from being around solely because of an existing text. That's the bright line for me between pastiche/homage and fanfic. Both are intertextual, but in different ways. (Certainly there is plenty of Heyer pastiche prior to SttC, enough to qualify as subgenre, but that's not the main point of the distinction here, I think.)

--ETA line here--
Redshirts was written with the intent of publication, AFAIK. 99.9% of what's at ff.net has not been written thus, and that includes HPMoR, which is not publishable in its current state. That's the legal bright line between fic and not-fic.

Also, I have read literally thousands of pieces of HP fanfic (I used to do intake for an archive), and I stopped after a dozen chapters of HPMoR (years ago) because I wasn't on the clock, as it were, and I just didn't care personally. Harry/Ginny songfic circa 2004: more personally meaningful to its writer and its narrow audience than HPMoR seems to be to its writer. And fics with the serial numbers filed off still read as fics, yet sometimes they're publishable because they're revised to do something besides missing-moment or id-scratching. Don't get me wrong, sometimes that id-scratching is rigorously built and minutely thought through: this comes to mind, and I hardly ever remember titles of fics (and don't like Ron generally), so. But capitalizing off fic qua fic makes me a bit irritated. Use your small renown to gain an audience for some other text, and if it's well written, then it can be considered for the same kind of award as things that were written deliberately for publication (self-pub, indie pub, or trade pub) in the first place.
Edited Date: 2015-09-18 02:04 am (UTC)

Date: 2015-09-18 03:00 pm (UTC)
genarti: Fountain pen lying on blank paper, nib in close focus. ([misc] ink on the page)
From: [personal profile] genarti
I tried reading it once, and I barely got through the first couple of chapters. I fully agree with your assessment of the author's (lack of) craft, and that he's trying to have his cake and eat it too here.

Also, that I'm deeply and invariably annoyed by people campaigning for an award nomination. Please note that I do not at all include in that the "here's what I wrote that's eligible, do what you like with that information" posts that go up every nomination season! That's just useful information. But as soon as someone starts urging their readers to vote for them, especially if there's an entitled air to it, I start wanting to throw things and to vote for anything else.

Also: I'm torn on the question of whether fanfic ought to be Hugo-eligible. But I do not think being in dialogue with something -- even in close, publicly acknowledged inspired-by-this dialogue -- is the same thing as something that uses the same character names and plot points and presents itself explicitly as a fanfic. Thus I would definitely not categorize Sorcerer to the Crown as Heyer AU fanfic, separate from the question of whether it ought to be Hugo-eligible if it were.

(K)

Date: 2015-09-19 05:05 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Which I actually like rather a lot!

Can we go back to that part for a bit? Yes, all your criticisms are valid, and all the things that bugged you bothered me too -- but I liked it rather a lot too :) (And yes, I only finished it because I was stuck in bed and B was excited about it.)

No book that basically copies the same chapter over again five times (eg, the battles) has any business near an award. Near an editor, yes.

But all the parts where Harry's jaw hits the floor because magic has just violated another conservation law? Those make me So Happy.

(K again)

Date: 2015-09-27 08:16 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Wait, so where do you draw the line on fic? Grendel? Rosencrantz and Guildenstern? Till We Have Faces? Is there a code somewhere about how literary something has to be? (Presumably all of you who read fanfic much more than me have had this discussion, and I'm just out to lunch.)

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