全 67 件のコメント

[–]welcomeramen 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Every single person in this thread arguing against penises in woman-only spaces is conflating genitalia with the possessor of said genitalia. Y'all are literally arguing that trans women aren't women if they have penises. That is transphobic AF.

News flash: you're afraid of penises because a MAN used one to assault you. News flash part two: statistically zero (0) trans women are going to, or even want to, use their penis to assault you. It is not going to happen. It is a non-issue.

"But it's a phobia/trigger." Yes, and phobias and triggers are serious and real. For example, I'm triggered by a specific men's body spray/deodorant. I have every right to avoid that scent, and to ask my loved ones to avoid it. It does NOT give me the right to demand that no one, at any time, ever expose me to that smell. I am going to encounter it in life. It is unavoidable. Even if I excluded men from my life forever, I would still encounter it sometimes because I've known women who use it, and some other things smell close enough to it to trigger the effect.

It is MY responsibility to manage MY trauma and do what is best for ME. If I find myself in a situation which turns out to be triggering, it is MY responsibility to remove myself from the situation and care for myself. Not to demand that reality bend itself to my will. Not to demand that strangers not use it. Not to demand that any strangers who use it immediately leave my presence. It sucks, but hey, being traumatized and having a resultant disability sucks, generally. My trauma is not my fault, but it's still my responsibility.

Trans women are not having penises AT you. They are doing nothing wrong or threatening by simply existing. They are women, who happen to have an anatomical anomaly which corresponds with men. They are not men. They are women. And specifically, they are extremely vulnerable women, in need of protection and safety. Trans women are assaulted and murdered at higher rates than other women. We (cis women) are actually SAFER than they are in any given situation.

If you were instead triggered by beards (I guarantee that is a thing for someone), would you insist that women with PCOS either shave or be excluded from women-only spaces? No? Then the penis isn't the issue. You not accepting trans women as women is the issue. Maybe deal with that.

[–]k3rrotsI swear I'm a feminist 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

mic drop

[–]Bananasauru5rex 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Super agreement. I'm sympathetic to the genital-as-trigger discussion, but I think that kind of thing can be handled informally (like, the person talks to the spa and asks about a bit of privacy, or some low-traffic time of day that they can go, or whatever, basically just some way to prepare your anxiety-coping strategies). It doesn't sound like a good solution to 1) help the trauma survivors avoid their triggers, by way of 2) compounding the dysphoria of trans people by barring them based on their triggers.

[–]k3rrotsI swear I'm a feminist 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (30子コメント)

I feel that no one is entitled to hold transphobic preferences (*yes I think this is transphobic because if it is a women's space then transwomen, as women, should be welcome and treated with respect) and that if a person does not want to see genitalia (of any form) they should not be going to a nude spa.

[–]MeesaClumsie 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I feel like the safe space thing has really shaken my self-image as a very pro trans person, I have a transgender relative and I have always thought of myself as very pro trans, but I really feel that abused women should not have to be around a penis in a shower or whatever.

And I have to say none of the posts I've read so far on this thread have challenged this well,

jokes like "if you are immature enough to be bothered by the sight of any parts of naked bodies" or "penises don't ciphon away your energy by being in the open, nor do they access your bank account" aren't really facing the reality that abused women can be triggered by being around one.

[–]k3rrotsI swear I'm a feminist 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And I'm definitely not saying that people who are dealing with trauma should be forced into anything they aren't comfortable with. As much I respect that safe spaces and trigger warnings are absolutely necessary and a useful tool for recovery I still believe that not every space can be a safe one, because that kinda defeats the *purpose/concept of recovering.

[–]MizDiana 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I have always thought of myself as very pro trans, but I really feel that abused women should not have to be around a penis in a shower or whatever.

This needs to be bolded: transwomen (and other feminists who agree with them) are NOT saying abused women should be forced to be around men.

I sometimes wonder if concerns like yours are because of an assumption the trans person is not far into transition - that is, more than just the penis appears male. (Probably not the case here.) Also, keep in mind most transwomen don't like their penises & don't want others to see them. Towels and private showers are likely.

Either way, the fact that many women (and, proportionally, more trans women) have suffered abuse is not sufficeint reason for discriminating against a category of women in ordinary public businesses.

Even if you refuse to categorize transwomen as women, remember: this isn't a shelter. It's a spa that is not intended to cater to abused women. Advocating for discrimination in a normal business environment must clear a higher bar that the level of discrimination we tolerate to accommodate special cases like abuse victims. We're not talking about forcing women's shelters to hire pre-transition trans women! That's not the argument here.

aren't really facing the reality that abused women can be triggered by being around one

Why are you assuming that women traumatized from abuse will be frequent customers at a high-end spa? And, even if we do assume a significant percentage of this spa's customers will be former abuse victims, does POTENTIAL suffering (seeing a penis) outweigh GUARANTEED discrimination and ostracization (banning transgender clientele from public businesses)?

[–]MeesaClumsie 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yes, I can't imagine a pre op trans woman who wants to go out naked, I was going to say this sounds very rare.

I wasn't really thinking about this spa more the issue in general.

fair enough, good points.

[–]MizDiana 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I agree that the issue in general is somewhat difficult at times. For example: should a trans woman fleeing abuse be allowed refuge at a shelter for women who have suffered abuse? I think yes (last I checked, a few years ago, the answer in reality was usually no), but I recognize that there is a potential conflict between the interests of the abused trans woman and the other women who need the shelter.

[–]MeesaClumsie 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

thanks, I mean I'm not trans so It's not really something I have business thinking about so much, it's just something that popped into my head a while ago, one of those things with a grey area, anti trans people I know are all over this story.

[–]MizDiana 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

anti trans people I know are all over this story

Some people are obsessed with penis and female sexual purity, lol. No one ever complains about the transgender man in the men's locker room! Or thinks about the reality of what transgender men in the women's locker room would be like. (And I'm just making this accusation about anti-trans people, not your different concerns.)

[–]godard_4ever[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Do you think women who do not want to see penis should not go to a womens nude spa?

Do you think it is bigotry on the same level of being uncomfortable with a racist uncomfortable with skin color for a woman to be uncomfortable with a genital of an opposite sex?

[–]unrivaled_taco 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Do you think women who do not want to see penis should not go to a womens nude spa?

I think if you are immature enough to be bothered by the sight of any parts of naked bodies you shouldn't be going to any nude spas at all.

[–]dora_dora_bora 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I have no idea on the nature of these thread responses who is a feminist or who isn't. But how is it upvoted to say women who are uncomfortable with male genitalia is a sign of maturity? Are rape victims who may be triggered by it, just immature and illogical?

[–]MizDiana 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Transpeople have a term: TERF (trans-exclusionary radical feminist). It's what it sounds like: the term stands for (self-identified) radical feminists who exclude transgender women from the category of women. The intellectually-consistent ones also include transgender men in the category of women.

It's common & normal for some topics to create disagreement within feminism. Some feminists, I'm sad to say, deny transgender gender identity. They are still feminists, however.

I would say in response to your specific concerns that you are arguing against a straw man. We should not assume all high-end nude spa clients are rape victims who are likely to be triggered.

/u/unrivaled_taco is talking about spa clients in general. You, /u/dora_dora_bora are changing the topic to rape victims. Can you not see how you are misrepresenting unrivaled_taco's argument?

[–]unrivaled_taco 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

radical feminists who exclude transgender women from the category of women

My understanding is that they define gender with respect to historical oppressions which are imposed on people according to their sex. The goal is to remove these oppressions and stereotypes entirely. This doesn't make sense from the trans definition of gender which requires an innate masculinity and femininity and an individualistic version of gender. Radical feminists don't see gender as individual, but rather a consequence of patriarchy, and they don't see masculinity and femininity as innate, but again a consequence of patriarchy. Gender is imposed upon people, they don't get to pick it. Picking gender would be analogous to picking your race. It's fine if you don't feel like your personality meshes with particular racial or gender stereotypes, most people don't to varying degrees, but society decides how it treats you based on its declaration of your race and gender, not your individual identification. Therefore, as it concerns oppression and alleviating oppression, what matter is how society defines you not how you define yourself.

In general radical feminists don't dislike transpeople, there isn't any "transphobia". Of course you can find the bad apple in the bunch, but it isn't representative of their ideas and beliefs. It is fundamentally about a disagreement in how gender is defined and how that definition plays into oppression. In a world without gender as radical feminists define it, people would be free to express their personalities without the harmful backdrop of stereotypes and labels. So it would be just as liberating to people who call themselves trans now as it would be to everyone else.

[–]MizDiana 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My understanding is that they define gender with respect to historical oppressions which are imposed on people according to their sex.

Yes, and no. They are doing this AND assuming that transgender women do not suffer misogyny. They do, oh yes, they do. Ok, I could kind of get it if they were like "5 years of suffering from misogyny before you can be considered a woman". But no, they just deny any trans woman at all from the category of female.

The goal is to remove these oppressions and stereotypes entirely. This doesn't make sense from the trans definition of gender which requires an innate masculinity and femininity and an individualistic version of gender.

Actually, these two ideas are not mutually exclusive. You can believe in the idea of innate gender (and not just along the binary) & innate masculinity/femininity AND also believe that oppression & stereotyping is bad. Yes, you are right, the transgender view of gender is problematic for those who want to argue that gender identity is entirely a social construct (generally for the purposes of removing the idea of a physical inferiority for women). But that's a niche case. In general, there is no conflict between believing in an innate (or at least brain-structure determined) gender & feminist opposition to oppression.

I'd note in particular that I used to think transgender experience was an argument against Judith Butler's groundbreaking work. But Judith Butler herself in her statements on the legitimacy of transgender experience convinced me otherwise.

but society decides how it treats you based on its declaration of your race and gender, not your individual identification

A big part of the reason behind the concept of "passing" within transgender circles. (Passing = when people you meet assume you are the gender you identify as without noticing you're transgender.) That's also frequently the point where transgender women note a sudden increase in misogyny. Listening to transgender people (men and women) explain just how extreme ordinary, every day sex discrimination manifests from both perspectives is pretty interesting, actually.

Therefore, as it concerns oppression and alleviating oppression, what matter is how society defines you not how you define yourself.

In essence, the kind of feminist you are talking about gives the majority the right to determine who is a woman and who is not - and this same majority think some trans women are women and some trans women are not women. It's a pretty silly system to adopt for personal morality & action, in my opinion. Why go with the majority opinion? Shouldn't feminists hold themselves to a higher standard? That is, shouldn't they treat others based on how they themselves, as feminists, see others, not how society at large sees them?

Also, I would add that point of view tends to minimize or ignore the effects of intersectionality. If a certain social experience is needed to be a woman, how do you deal with radically different social experiences? Are one of 1) Mozambican women and 2) Canadian women more womanly than the other, because their social experiences are so different? And if Mozambican women and Canadian women can both be just as much women, or just different types of women, despite their different social experiences, why can't trans women just be a different type of women, despite their different social experiences?

In general radical feminists don't dislike transpeople

That is my experience as well.

there isn't any "transphobia"

That is not my experience, unfortunately. While feminists do better than the general population, in my experience there are still some feminists who find transgender people "icky". As an example of this, search "transgender" at /r/gendercynical . As you note, however, bad apples, not a bad batch.

In a world without gender as radical feminists define it, people would be free to express their personalities without the harmful backdrop of stereotypes and labels.

I agree, and as a transgender woman I can tell you that I personally cringe when some other transgender women use an overwhelmingly "pink" (stereotypical) presentation to insist on their gender identity.

I disagree, however, that gender identity (as opposed to socially defined roles) can be entirely divorced from biological sex (specifically, brain structure). If nothing else, I've noticed that some gender dypshoria (the discomfort in the mismatch between body & identity in transgender people) results from a sense of not seeing one's self as healthy. The same way someone sick or starving looks 'wrong', a transgender person will see incorrect physical reality (beard, lack of breasts, lack of testosterone-fueled musculature for trans men, etc.) as 'wrong'. While I generally agree with Judith Butler's theories (though not necessarily with the theorists that build on her work), I maintain that gender identity is biologically driven at least to that extent.

[–]k3rrotsI swear I'm a feminist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you think women who do not want to see penis should not go to a womens nude spa?

I don't really want to say what people should or shouldn't do, but I don't think that a person can go to a nude space and reasonably expect to not see genitals. In particular I definitely do not think that a spa should be excluding a marginalized group to prioritize the supposed wishes of others, especially when those people could just go to a non-nude spa to not see genitals.

Do you think it is bigotry on the same level of being uncomfortable with a racist uncomfortable with skin color for a woman to be uncomfortable with a genital of an opposite sex?

No I don't think so. A woman can be uncomfortable with the genitals of the opposite sex for any number of reasons non-bigotry related.

[–]Mudlily 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

By extension, do you feel that biological females who prefer not to see male genitalia, for whatever reason, should not be permitted to create clothing-optional environments to meet their preference? Would this ban extend to private events, or only for businesses? Is there a numerical cut off, where three women can gather without penises being welcome, but thirty cannot?

[–]k3rrotsI swear I'm a feminist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

By extension, do you feel that biological females who prefer not to see male genitalia, for whatever reason, should not be permitted to create clothing-optional environments to meet their preference?

No, if they want to create that environment in the privacy of their homes all the more power to them. They just can't run a business like that:

"Under the Ontario Human Rights Code (the Code) people are protected from discrimination and harassment because of gender identity and gender expression in employment, housing, facilities and services, contracts, and membership in unions, trade or professional associations."

"Trans people should have access to washrooms, change rooms and other gender specific services and facilities based on their lived gender identity."

For more info

[–]MizDiana 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's a public/private space/event distinction. Not a numbers question. In the same way that the guy at the corner store is morally wrong for refusing to sell you a pack of gum on the basis of your vagina, but is allowed to not hang out with you or be your friend because of your vagina, his religion, not liking your smell, whatever.

[–]SecondHandNews1 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (11子コメント)

So women who pay money to join what sounds like a high end spa on the understanding that they will only be nude amongst other women should be forced to see men too - and have men look at them.

The business recognises that women don't want to do that, understandably. They will cancel their membership and the business goes bust - the employees lose their job.

Have you even considered how ridiculous that is?

[–]k3rrotsI swear I'm a feminist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

So women who pay money to join what sounds like a high end spa on the understanding that they will only be nude amongst other women should be forced to see men too - and have men look at them.

No, they won't be forced to see men or have men look at them because trans women are women, not men.

[–]SecondHandNews1 -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Penis = male. No penis = female. Very simple.

This business clearly said join us and you will only be nude amongst that subset of "women" who do not have penises. This is what the business offers and what the customers pay money for.

If the business wants to say it costs £x to join us and you will only be nude amongst women who may or may not have penises then fair enough. Women can join on that basis.

If you believe people with penises are women then put your money where your mouth and open a business offering that. Of course you won't because you (probably) have the sense to realise you'd be bust in a week.

Sorry to break this to you but if you have a penis you are not a woman and women are not going to accept you as a woman. Better to think what you want to do about that.

Do you see the difference?

[–]k3rrotsI swear I'm a feminist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Penis = male. No penis = female. Very simple.

No. Very transphobic in fact.

This business clearly said join us and you will only be nude amongst that subset of "women" who do not have penises.

No business can exclude subsets of women who have penises because that is discrimination of trans people and is illegal. So if they made that promise it cannot be enforced.

If you believe people with penises are women then put your money where your mouth and open a business offering that. Of course you won't because you (probably) have the sense to realise you'd be bust in a week.

Lol, yes, that makes perfect sense. I respect trans identities and therefore must open a business.

Sorry to break this to you but if you have a penis you are not a woman and women are not going to accept you as a woman. Better to think what you want to do about that.

Sorry to break this to you but you are transphobic. Better think about what you want to do with that.

[–]MizDiana 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Eunuchs are not female. Nor are transgender men. AGAIN, I'm convinced you never opened the three image links I posted for you earlier. Those men are NOT female.

[–]Bananasauru5rex 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sorry to break this to you but if you have a penis you are not a woman and women are not going to accept you as a woman. Better to think what you want to do about that.

Plenty of women find it very easy to accept women who are trans as, simply, women. In fact, it sounds like this place is losing business because many of their customers don't like this discrimination, i.e., they are on board with trans acceptance. I'm not surprised as far as urban centres in Ontario go.

[–]MizDiana 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (5子コメント)

So women who pay money to join what sounds like a high end spa on the understanding that they will only be nude amongst other women should be forced to see men too - and have men look at them.

Transgender women are women. No one is asking these clients to look at men. As for someone looking at them and finding them attractive at a spa... lesbians exist. Get over it.

The business recognises that women don't want to do that, understandably. They will cancel their membership and the business goes bust - the employees lose their job.

You are completely ignoring the part of the article that talks about how many clients were upset by the spa's policy and thought that trans women SHOULD be permitted to use the spa! Apparently several decided to stop using the spa. Why ignore that part of the article? Also, are you not aware that is the EXACT argument used for why businesses should be allowed to racially discriminate in the 50s, 60s, and 70s? Pandering to the desires of racist customers? You are literally taking a pro-racial segregation in private business position.

Have you even considered how ridiculous that is?

Last, presuming you're not arguing for a total transgender exclusion, but are instead just denying transgender identity, please realize that you are advocating for allowing these folk in a women-only space.

http://www.pride.com/sites/www.pride.com/files/2015/06/22/google_trans_900.jpg

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2292894.1436971817!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_750/pilot16n-3-web.jpg

https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/9/p/2/p/8/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.620x349.19p2q7.png/1455138868008.jpg

How on Earth does THAT make sense? I think it's you being ridiculous.

[–]SecondHandNews1 -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Transgender women are women. No one is asking these clients to look at men.

Do you think that's a view shared by most people who were actually born as women or is it a view you want to force other people to accept because it suits you?

You are completely ignoring the part of the article that talks about how many clients were upset by the spa's policy and thought that trans women SHOULD be permitted to use the spa!

Because it's up to the business to decide what they offer and who they want to join. A business offers whatever product/service they see fit and customers either pay their money or they don't.

If this business loses their customers because they barred "women" with penises then fair enough - that's a choice for the business to make. If this business loses customers because they decide to admit women with penises then equally fair.

If this business says join us and we guarantee that you will never see a penis that's fair too.

If you open a business you get to set your own policy and stand or fall in the market.

[–]MizDiana 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Do you think that's a view shared by most people who were actually born as women or is it a view you want to force other people to accept because it suits you?

Neither. Why do you assume those are the only two options?

Because it's up to the business to decide what they offer and who they want to join.

No, it is not. The business in question broke Ontario province law. In the same way that in the United States, racial discrimination is illegal in public businesses.

A business offers whatever product/service they see fit and customers either pay their money or they don't.

That's why it was amusing to see this business suffer economically from its bigotry. :)

If this business loses customers because they decide to admit women with penises then equally fair.

If this business says join us and we guarantee that you will never see a penis that's fair too.

If you open a business you get to set your own policy and stand or fall in the market.

Not according to Ontario law. Or ethics based on morality. Libertarians are wrong on many (not all) moral issues.

[–]SecondHandNews1 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Neither. Why do you assume those are the only two options?

What other options are there?

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a woman to choose to spend her own money joining a club where she is guaranteed to never see a penis - or have a person with a penis see her naked.

Do you think it's reasonable to deny a woman that choice in life?

[–]MizDiana 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What other options are there?

Believing most people are wrong without trying to force them to change their opinion, for one. There are others, but this one is so obvious it seems sufficient.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a woman to choose to spend her own money joining a club where she is guaranteed to never see a penis - or have a person with a penis see her naked.

Sure. However, I don't see that as a justification for discrimination. Nor, less importantly, a good reason to break the law.

Also, don't forget the three images I linked a few posts back. You seem to be assuming that women are going to be COMFORTABLE with that kind of person seeing them naked but not be comfortable with a transgender woman with a penis seeing them naked?

Do you think it's reasonable to deny a woman that choice in life?

Yes. I'm not advocating denying a women that experience in all situations. But I am claiming it is wrong to insist that experience MUST allowed as a product for sale. (Businesses, you should note, are both legally and ethically distinct from private clubs).

Let me put a question to you: why do you think the interests & desires of women who are uncomfortable around minorities are more important than the interests & desires of the minority in question?

[–]Bananasauru5rex 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What other options are there?

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a woman to choose to spend her own money joining a club where she is guaranteed to never see a penis - or have a person with a penis see her naked.

Do you think it's reasonable to deny a woman that choice in life?

What other options are there?

I think it's perfectly reasonable for an Irish person to choose to spend their own money joining a club where they are guaranteed to never see a British person - or have a person who is British see them.

Do you think it's reasonable to deny an Irish person that choice in life?

[–]Windmill_flowers 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (28子コメント)

I wouldn't say that's transphobic. Penisphobic yes

[–]godard_4ever[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (27子コメント)

Doesn't the word phobia mean irrational fear?

Are women who don't want to be near a penis really irrational?

[–]Windmill_flowers 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (26子コメント)

I'd say so. The penis isn't going to attack, just like vaginas don't attack. Penises don't ciphon away your energy by being in the open. Nor do they access your bank account, eat your lunch in the break room, or anything remotely nefarious.

[–]godard_4ever[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (25子コメント)

But penises do attack way more than vaginas. Can you really not be uncomfortable with penises as a woman, or you're being irrational? It doesn't mean, you think everyone with a penis is a rapist, but it means the presence of one can make you uncomfortable. A lot of people are uncomfortable with genitals from opposite sex.

[–]k3rrotsI swear I'm a feminist 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (24子コメント)

I'm not OP, but I agree with their point.

A penis on its own is not a threat; its the person wielding the penis that controls it. Statistically trans people are more likely to be victims of sexual assault than perpetrators, so if you are going to base your perception of people on the statistics you are safer in that space.

[–]dora_dora_bora 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (16子コメント)

Statistically transwomen also have higher chance of committing violent crime than women (but not as men)

regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime.

But let's disavow the stats for a minute. The question is about whether women have legitimacy in being uncomfortable with male genitalia. Clearly, many are, but why as a feminist would you flat out say their discomfort is wrong and invalid? It is a grey area for sure, but we shouldn't blame the women in this scenario, many who do have had traumatizing experience with male violence or male sexual assault can be uncomfortable with a sight of a penis even if the person holding that penis identifies as a woman.

I want to be a supportive, trans ally too, but as a feminist I'm not going to decry women's experience and feelings either.

[–]k3rrotsI swear I'm a feminist 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (15子コメント)

But let's disavow the stats for a minute

Let's disavow them for a bit longer actually. That study states itself "comparisons of female-to-males and male-to-females, although hampered by low statistical power and associated wide confidence intervals" and was done on 324 people, so that's already a bad start. Also even if you have a comparison between male-to-female and female controls that shows a "male pattern of criminality" that is not a finding that is relevant to patterns of sexual assault perpetration by trans people versus cis people. Finally you've taken information about any crime, which is not indicative of sexual assault or sexual violence, which is what we are discussing here.

The question is about whether women have legitimacy in being uncomfortable with male genitalia. Clearly, many are, but why as a feminist would you flat out say their discomfort is wrong and invalid?

I am not saying that any discomfort towards genitalia is wrong or invalid. I'm saying that people who have that discomfort should be mindful of going to a nude spa because that is a place where they are likely to encounter that.

[–]dora_dora_bora -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (14子コメント)

I'm glad you can discredit an extensive scientific study within minutes when the abstract itself is longer to read through. It clearly states it includes violent crime at same rate.

I'm saying that people who have that discomfort should be mindful of going to a nude spa because that is a place where they are likely to encounter that.

The premise of this specific nude spa is that it is a male genitalia free, same sex spa. The spa's rule is based on not encountering a penis. As in it was built for people with that discomfort.

Why shouldn't someone with a penis be mindful of that?

[–]MizDiana 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm glad you can discredit an extensive scientific study

If you think 324 cases in a population of... LOTS more... is an "extensive" study, well, I don't think extensive means what you think it means.

The premise of this specific nude spa is that it is a male genitalia free, same sex spa. The spa's rule is based on not encountering a penis. As in it was built for people with that discomfort.

This is incorrect. Are you just lying, or making a silly assumption? Go to blitz spa's actual website. There is NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, about the spa being for that purpose in their promotional material OR customer testimonials.

Why shouldn't someone with a penis be mindful of that?

Trans women don't like showing off their penis. They usually aren't fans of them. Towels would be employed, most likely. Why are you assuming this isn't the case?

[–]k3rrotsI swear I'm a feminist 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (12子コメント)

I'm glad you can discredit an extensive scientific study within minutes when the abstract itself is longer to read through.

Yes, I'm glad I have high levels of reading comprehension as well. I guess that undergrad in biological sciences was good for something afterall.

The premise of this specific nude spa is that it is a male genitalia free, same sex spa. The spa's rule is based on not encountering a penis.

Which is why it is transphobic, because they self-titled "trans inclusion" policy excludes/bans any individual with "male genitalia"; which states that a penis is inherently male, denies people's gender identities, and reduces non-binary people to their genitals without any consideration of their rights as trans people.

Why shouldn't someone with a penis be mindful of that?

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be mindful, any person could choose not to be nude in a space if they want to be mindful of those who do not want to encounter nudity.

[–]dora_dora_bora 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Your undergraduate study in biology didn't teach you penis is a male genitalia, a male reproductive organ? This is in realm of scientific literature. Sex isn't a social construct like gender.

It may not be inclusive to everyone, but why can't women who want to enjoy a nude spa without a penis not be allowed one? Why can't there be a space for women with discomfort against male genitalia?

[–]unrivaled_taco -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I guess that undergrad in biological sciences was good for something afterall.

Lol, undergrad? An undergrad couldn't read a paper for their life, let alone understand statistics or a field of study to the level required to make any legitimate analysis of a peer-reviewed article. Even really good first and second year grad students in that field can't do that and you certainly can't.

Finally you've taken information about any crime, which is not indicative of sexual assault or sexual violence, which is what we are discussing here.

Is it? Got a review article to support those claims?

was done on 324 people

You clearly don't understand how samples work.

[–]C3POhMyyy 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Never thought I'd hear penises discussed like gun control. First time for everything I guess, but yes I believe it is irrational. Most men by a sizable margin keep the safety on.

[–]dora_dora_bora 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

why can't I be uncomfortable with penises as a woman? Or is that bigotry and i'm irrational?

Most guns aren't involved with murders either, but people can and are still very much uncomfortable around them.

[–]MizDiana 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

why can't I be uncomfortable with penises as a woman?

Bigotry? Yes, but being uncomfortable around penises is not discrimination unless, well, you want to discriminate against other women because of that discomfort. (Which apparently you do.) Kind of like how being uncomfortable around black people is bigotry (even if previously assaulted by a black person).

and i'm irrational?

You are irrational. You're acting as if someone who is far more likely to be an assualt/rape victim herself is someone looking for an opportunity to assault/rape.

[–]dora_dora_bora -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You're saying it is irrational bigotry for women who have been victims of male sexual assault to be uncomfortable with male genitalia.

I don't think I will get raped at a womens spa, but the sight of penis would make me uncomfortable at one. But I sure am glad there are feminists like you who tell me my experience and feeling is irrational and wrong.

[–]MizDiana 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're saying it is irrational bigotry...

No. I'm saying it's bigotry to be uncomfortable around a class of people. As in: someone uncomfortable around Pakistanis is bigoted against Pakistanis, regardless of whether they act on that discomfort.

I'm saying it is irrational to be afraid of a woman because, in the past, you've been attacked by a man.

I don't think I will get raped at a womens spa, but the sight of penis would make me uncomfortable at one. But I sure am glad there are feminists like you who tell me my experience and feeling is irrational and wrong.

Now, keep in mind the precision of my comment above. If you're uncomfortable around penises, ok. I'm NOT calling that irrational. If you run into a penis that, through some fluke of wind, is NOT covered by a towel at a women's spa, I suggest you leave (or, well, put up with it, like any other ugly body part you might run into) rather than endorse discrimination against other women. If you feel that if you run into one it would be seriously hurtful/bring up bad memories, then I suggest one of many fine spas in which nudity is not standard practice. After all, you've got to know yourself & look after yourself!

I mean, maybe someone is uncomfortable around extremely fat people. Not irrational. But maybe nude locations aren't the best for that kind of person.

[–]C3POhMyyy 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Penises weren't specifically designed and built to take life. In fact, they are meant to do quite the opposite.

[–]Literally_Herodotus 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Whether or not it's transphobic (it probably is), I think some of the outrage stems from the fact that, as far as I can tell, there is an explicit trans inclusion policy in place that also includes a "no male genitalia" clause.

It almost seems like it would be less offensive to just have a blanket "no trans women allowed" policy than to say "Of course trans women are welcome - no dicks, though."

[–]MizDiana 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

The place DOESN'T have a "no male genitalia" clause. They do not advertise that (check their website). They advertise women-only. Also, their policy is against local law, so there's that.

[–]Literally_Herodotus 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Okay, well that's worse then. I was just going by what the article appeared to imply.

[–]zoryautrenyaya 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have an older (70s) lesbian feminist friend who asked me a similar question. She had been to a feminist summit retreat that had outdoor communal shower facilities. There were some transwomen present, and some of the people there were uncomfortable about penises in outdoor shower facilities. My friend asked me what I thought. I had to think about it. I think where I came down was, guests should be informed ahead of time about how the showers are, so they can make a decision about their comfort level around naked bodies of all types, and that ideally there would be some privacy available for those uncomfortable with communal showers for any reason. Prior warning is important--let people make their own decisions about whether they are up for it or not. I don't think she was satisfied with the answer but it's the best I have at the moment.

[–]Crikey-WayFeminist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It really matters who it's attatched to, and what the space is regarding, I'd be way more comfortable sharing women's spaces with trans women, obviously, but if it was a discussion on uteruses or biologically female (since being biologically female =/= being a woman) reproductive health/rights, I would feel more comfortable with those who have uteri and vaginas, so essentially cis women, trans men, and other AFAB people