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The Emotion Waffle, translated into Chinese (self.ChineseMedicine)

justonium が 投稿

I previously posted a theory of eight emotions on this sub, but it wasn't well received. The posts:

An Emotion Waffle

and

The Emotions of the Earth and Cosmos

I'm still convinced that this theory is in some way matched to reality, and that, with more research, I can use it to connect my current understanding of the human, Earth, and cosmos (which uses the Aristotelian Four Element model of the Tarot) with Traditional Chinese Medicine.

So, I dove into the most immediately relevant book I could find on the subject: The Seven Emotions, by Claude Larre and Elisabeth Rochat de la Vallée.

Despite its title, it actually describes eight distinct emotions! It also refers briefly to something called the eight winds, which are perhaps relevant, though a quick Google search brought up something not quite the same: prosperity, decline, disgrace, honor, praise, censure, suffering and pleasure.

Anyhow, here's the emotion waffle, updated with the terminology from The Seven Emotions:

Fire/Wands Water/Cups Earth/Disks Air/Swords
pulsed le (joy) bei (sadness) xi (elation) jing (fright) free
sustained you (oppression) si (overthinking) nu (anger) kong (fear) trapped
low voice exhale growl high voice

Kong is emoted by a sustained high voice, a scream.
Jing is emoted by a pulsed high voice, a whooping laugh.

Nu is emoted by a sustained growl, a snarl.
Xi is emoted by a pulsed growl, a snickering laugh.

Si is emoted by a sustained exhale, a sigh.
Bei is emoted by a pulsed exhale, weeping.

You is emoted by a sustained low voice or moan.
Le is emoted by a pulsed low voice, a belly laugh or a song.

Sobbing is an expression of combined bei and le.

Does this make any kind of sense from the perspective of TCM?

Regarding how I got eight emotions out of the book:

The chapter on joy begins with two separate sections, one for xi and one for le. They both describe very different phenomena, and it even states that in the Nei Jing, "[the treatment of these two aspects of joy is completely different]".

For further info on how I correlated the eight emotions of the waffle model to the eight described in The Seven Emotions, just ask me in the comments.

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[–]PopeGreyling 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (32子コメント)

You're not making any correlations that I can see

[–]halfaspie 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (27子コメント)

the correlations I see are how he correlated [the 7 (+1) emotions in the book, le bei xi jing you si nu kong] with [1.] pulsed / sustained diaphramatic patterns [2.] 4 different vocal chord patterns (low pitch, breathy-exhale, growl, high pitch) [3.] the 4 suits of cards/elements (Fire water earth air)

[–]PopeGreyling 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (26子コメント)

That's a pretty great reply. But to what ends? Also I've never heard of jing used in this way. Jing is a solution in the lower intestines from what I was taught. The Tummo breath stokes the fires (compost) that is jing.
Edit: Jing is also a type of feminine intelligence responsible for propreception etc

[–]justonium[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (25子コメント)

Jing is referred to in The Seven Emotions as an emotion described in the Neijing Suwen. Grabbing the first quote about it I can find:

excerpt from Suwen chapter 39:

When there is starting with fright (jing) the qi is in disorder (luan)... When there is starting with fright the heart no longer has a place to rely on, the spirits no longer have a place to refer to (gui), planned thought, lü, no longer has a place to settle. This is how the qi is in disorder.

Edit: I'm also curious as to what is propreception?

[–]PopeGreyling 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (21子コメント)

proprioception is how I should have spelled it

[–]justonium[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (20子コメント)

proprioception

Woah. I know the Ancient Chinese correlated the senses to the Elements, emotions, orifices, etc. I wonder if the sense of proprioception by chance correlates with jing. I personally don't see how to correlate the senses with the emotions as of yet.

[–]PopeGreyling 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (19子コメント)

You're using jing as an emotion which it might also be, but as a material fluid it, amongst other things, conducts energy & electricity in the lower intestine. Your sea legs are an aspect of balance/imbalance in jing. It serves a myriad of other functions as well, least of all as the basis for the immune system. We know that emotions affect the immune system so we could correlate your annunciation of the emotion(jing) and its effects on the bodies.

[–]justonium[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (9子コメント)

FWIW, if my correlation from the emotions to weather patterns is correct, then jing corresponds to lightning, so perhaps it is related to the fluid in some way.

[–]PopeGreyling 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

And or major nervous plexus through the lower body. How are you getting lighting as an emotion? What type of emotion & is it more raiden that lighting?

[–]justonium[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Are you saying that the major nervous plexus through the lower body has something to do with the fluid jing as well?

The process by which I correlated the emotions with weather is not something easily explained in text alone, but I'll try. It involved an almost magical ritual whereby I make one table each time I do it. It's very similar to how I treat giving a live improv performance; while I'm making the table, my body is very alive, chi flowing through it in large quantities as I recreate each emotion in me and direct the energy toward the task. Some tables take multiple hours to grow. I consider what goes on in my mind in the production of the tables too sacred to write down casually.

The full table is in this post, though I'm not sure about everything in the weather table. That part of my mind is not even awake right now, as I just woke up and am eating breakfast.

[–]remedylanecm 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

I'm not sure you guys are thinking of the same jing. 精 and 惊 are two completely different meanings. And if you are, then you need to go back and read the classics.

[–]PopeGreyling 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

No need to be passive aggressive, I didn't know about the differences. Would you pls explain the differences and/or point me in the right direction?

[–]remedylanecm 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Chinese has multiple words that are pronounced jing. Kidney-jing 精 is one, but jing 惊 is also the emotion fright. Chinese medicine in English is pretty woeful in respect of translations and terminology.

[–]PopeGreyling 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Youtubers are an interesting study/experiment in relation to the melding of eastern medicine ( least of all yoga and it's impact on the medical field of late) and western esoteric thought and behavior. Youtubers are for sure reflecting upon themselves as some type of electric fire gazing. To me they're using and having their Shen manipulated a la Manley P Hall and advertising is black magick. Art or Social experimenting (CIA...) that manifest like this; https://youtu.be/fpCXxqiTjqE is already influencing a generation of people long before their parents will notice. That influence is the means for manifesting culture, at and religion according to Paul Laffodly and Jay Z, or as that famous Chinese proverb put it; "Superman how do you fight an enemy made of people?" I saw that you were met with a warm welcome over at the TCM sub. They're fundamentalists and are just as bad as western medical fundamentalists. For western medical approval ($$) they lost their streetness for their good morning. I wrote a bit about this while in school and would be interested in what you make of your method and the research I did. If not its good enough to see someone else putting the halves together. https://www.academia.edu/16669227/Hellenistic_Shen_Balancing https://www.academia.edu/10063717/Shen_Disturbance_Manifestation_in_Western_Culture

Feel free to PM

Best!

[–]justonium[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Manley Hall's book The Secret Teachings of All Ages looks interesting, though I don't understand your reference to him.

Any way I can access your research without an Academia account? It sounds like you have an interesting perspective that I'd like to see more of.

[–]PopeGreyling 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not sure if you can or not. I started that account before they started paywalls etc. I've been considering compiling the papers into one volume & relocating the data. If I do I'll repost

[–]justonium[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Any recommended reading for understanding the interrelationships between the eight emotions?

[–]PopeGreyling 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes I do, give me a bit to get up & moving this morning & then I'll post some stuff for u. You're completely on the right track especially in your connecting Ancient Greek to Chinese med.

[–]justonium[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I've actually never read much about Ancient Greek medicine. I only learned the four element system from studying Tarot, particularly, Aleister Crowley and Robert M. Place.

One relevant book that I haven't bought yet is The Expressiveness of the Body and the Divergence of Chinese and Greek medicine.

[–]PopeGreyling 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for the recommendation

[–]TotesMessenger 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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[–]halfaspie 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

  1. So you split the chapter on joy into 'joy' le, and 'elation' xi.

[–]justonium[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The chapter is actually titled "Elation and Joy", so I didn't really make the split; it was already like that.

[–]viborg 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Still at it I see, heh.

What are you actually looking for here? What kind of feedback are you hoping to get from the community? (I'll be blunt, as your iterations and recursions stack deeper and deeper, it gets harder and harder to follow the plot. If you're hoping for constructive criticism, some kind of tl;dr would help out tremendously.)

[–]justonium[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Hmm, yeah I guess I should've provided all the tables in this post, rather than just linking back to the old ones.

I'm mainly looking for some new recommended reading, but also for discussion from anyone who is familiar with those eight emotions.

[–]viborg 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yeah I don't know anything about emotions. Recommended reading, you say? Alice Miller is pretty awesome.

[–]justonium[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thanks, I'm buying her most popular book, The Drama of the Gifted Child.

[–]viborg 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's the one I meant to recommend specifically, the only one I've actually read. It really is deeply insightful. Although it's dealing specifically with narcissistic disturbance as a pathology, I see it as more useful as a general pattern that everyone goes through to some extent (and this particular point of view is also echoed by Miller in the book too).

It's kind of like how people tend to talk about 'ego' in forums like /r/meditation. There's this simplistic presumption of 'Oh, ego? That's just an illusion.' Well sure there are illusory aspects of ego, but at the same time ego could be considered synonymous with identity, and forming a stable sense of identity is a normal and healthy part of any human's psychological development.

Btw I'm impressed with your motivation to read and inform yourself as much as possible. Earlier you had asked about the book The Web... but sadly I don't have my copy here in China so I'd have to find a digital copy if I was going to go back and analyze it in depth sorry.

[–]remedylanecm 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (14子コメント)

The point of medicine is to treat illness. What illnesses are you treating with this? How are you treating them? This table has no medicinal value. Where is the pathology? What happens if air insults water? Or water is too controlling of fire? This is not Chinese medicine.

[–]justonium[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (13子コメント)

The main way that I use this table to treat myself is that, when I have too much trapped Air / fear / kong, for example, I try to free it by inducing the corresponding emotion of free Air / thrill (fright) / jing.

And anger is treated with humor, etc.

I haven't figured out much more than that.

[–]Fogsmasher 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I try to free it by inducing the corresponding emotion of free Air / thrill (fright) / jing.

Jing is seamen. You're going to take cum shots to get better?

This is why you really need to learn the basics, you just embarrass yourself.

[–]justonium[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

By jing I am referring to the emotion represented by "a tree, with a lot of little birds resting on the branches, and the tree is shaken and all the birds scatter".

[–]Fogsmasher 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's not what it means in a Chinese medical sense.

[–]justonium[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Then is The Seven Emotions, by Elizabeth Rochat de la Valee and another author whose name I can't recall right now, not Chinese Medicine? I was quoting directly from there you know.

[–]remedylanecm 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Emotions aren't diseases. An excessive state of an emotion is, but this will often have physiological signs and symptoms too, and that's what you treat. Your table has no clinical relevance in real medicine.

[–]justonium[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Well I don't know how to treat those yet. In the mean time, inducing thrill does help me deal with fear.

Whatever those physiological signs and symptoms of fear are, I'll bet they are reduced when this happens.

[–]remedylanecm 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

How is fear a disease? How do you know those signs and symptoms are reduced if you don't know what they are? That's not medicine.

[–]justonium[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

How is fear a disease?

Fear is actually not always a disease, but, like any emotion, it is pathalogical when experienced in too much quantity relative to the other emotions. The ideal state of the body, family, crowd, etcetera, is to have all of the emotions present in proper proportion to each other as appropriate for the situation.

Quoting from your previous comment:

An excessive state of an emotion is [a disease], but this will often have physiological signs and symptoms too, and that's what you treat.

You can get rid of the physiological symptoms by reducing the excess fear.

How do you know those signs and symptoms are reduced if you don't know what they are?

I do know what some of them are. Excess fear can cause fidgeting, trembling, shaking, and in extreme excess, is vented involuntarily by a bloodcurdling high-voice scream.

This is medicine.

[–]remedylanecm 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

So screaming will cure these people of their disease? Try doing that in clinic.

That's not medicine. Try again.

And what you posted about fear, you pretty much quoted what I said to you earlier.

Figure out what your goal is. If it's to come up with useless tables and graphs, continue on the path you are on. If you want to learn Chinese medicine, then learn Chinese medicine.

[–]justonium[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I never said screaming would cure anything.

I don't recall you saying anything about fear--could you link me?

If you want to learn Chinese medicine, then learn Chinese medicine.

Feel free to suggest more readings.

[–]remedylanecm 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I do know what some of them are. Excess fear can cause fidgeting, trembling, shaking, and in extreme excess, is vented involuntarily by a bloodcurdling high-voice scream.

I never said screaming would cure anything.

Vented is a term used to release something.

I already gave you a list of books, the best books.

Wasn't direct at you, but was in a thread https://www.reddit.com/r/ChineseMedicine/comments/64pe73/the_emotion_waffle_translated_into_chinese/dg8j3ee/

[–]justonium[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

We are using vented in the same way. In my understanding, the fear energy is vented through the scream.

I think your list was in a previous thread, but yeah, I saved it. Right now I'm saving money to buy the Paul Unschuld's Huangdi Neijing Suwen.