全 88 件のコメント

[–]jogarzRome persecuted Christians to save the Library of Alexandria 67 ポイント68 ポイント  (6子コメント)

You might want to reformat your post, it's a bit of a headache to read right now.

[–]jyanoshik[S] 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yeah sorry about that, I am kinda new to long form reddit posting, I'll try to sort it out when I get access to a computer.

[–]jogarzRome persecuted Christians to save the Library of Alexandria 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't sweat it, I'm just trying to help out.

[–]MrGameAmpersandWatch 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

You need to return twice.

[–]jyanoshik[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

thank you this was super helpful I did not know this

[–]MrGameAmpersandWatch 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No worries. Reddit formatting can be a bit odd.ibe heard adding extra spaces at the end works too.

[–]jyanoshik[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It should be fixed thanks for making me aware of the problem, let me know if there is anything else that's a problem.

[–]EquinoxActualAll hail Obama, the Waterlord. 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Or the Hussite Crusades which sought to put down the heretical Hussite beliefs in Bohemia, both at least somewhat fit the bill on Christians going around the world killing and conquering non christians for offensive purposes.

Are you implying Hussites are not Christian? Does brother Žižka need to have a word with you?

[–]YogSothothIsMyHomey 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

N I C I N E C R E E D I C I N E C R E E D

[–]concussedYmirDank maymays are the new Nicene Creed 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Fixed formatting:

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8prwEJkJ3Ds

  • Essentially this is a video “debunking” myths about the Crusades. While I broadly agree with the general idea of the video in the sense that the Crusades impact is often exaggerated and used as false equivalencies, there are so many historical holes in the way Steven has created his argument that I feel it needed to be addressed.

  • 1:32 Steven refers to the Crusades proper as the “second” crusades with the argument that the Muslim jihads, were really the first. This of course ignores the fundamental difference between the concept of a Crusade and the concept of Jihad. Although both fall under the banner of a holy war, they are both different in motivation and execution. Jihads were a sort of justification for the expansion of Islamic Empires, a reasoning for the conquests that would inevitably occur with the creation of the powerful Arabian Emperor. Crusades on the other hand were meant as specific expeditions to seize strategic and culturally significant targets rather than a justification for general expansion. They are of course still holy wars but I think calling the first age of Jihad the original Crusade is frankly false.

  • 1:45 While it is true that many of the Crusades were done with the purposes of liberating Christian holy sites and defending from Islamic expansion some were Christians attacking non christians and/or heretics because they were weaker or of another faith. Notable examples being the Northern Crusades which were far from defensive. These were not wars against a massive threat but were rather attacks on neighboring pagans. Or the Hussite Crusades which sought to put down the heretical Hussite beliefs in Bohemia, both at least somewhat fit the bill on Christians going around the world killing and conquering non christians for offensive purposes.

  • 2:30 This will come up more a bit later but the era of Ottoman aggression in the Christian Balkans was after the golden age of Crusading which most consider to have ended in the late 12000s while Muslim expansion in europe took place in the early 1400s meaning that Ottoman aggression was not a factor in the initial outbreak or even the continuation of real Crusades. Sure a few Crusades were called on the Ottomans but they were much smaller affairs than the massive expeditions of previous centuries and many scholars don't even consider them Crusades proper.

  • 2:47 The sacking of Constantinople was not the “big” reason for the Crusades, the first Crusade was called in 1096 in response to Turkish expansion into eastern anatolia, not the sacking of Constantinople which was in 1453 almost 300 year later.

  • 3:13 There wasn't anything especially brutal about Islamic expansion, it was rather standard for the time with notable exceptions of course. But as a whole these conquests were relatively normal. In fact many Islamic military practices could be considered much more tolerant for the time, including the lack of forced conversions and the protection of Christians and Jews, as so called People of The Book. The example he cites as being especially brutal being the desecration of the Tombs of 2 saints was also not exceptional for the time and the destruction of Holy Sites as a result of conquests was done by various conquerors Islamic and not, including many Christians.

  • 3:20 “Dick move” is not a military term

  • 3:27 Islamic torturing was not exceptional for the time, many cultures had extremely brutal techniques for torturing and killing individuals at the time. There's a reason the term “going medieval on someone” exists.

  • 3:32 The use of the Jizya tax and the second class citizen status of non-muslims was a problem for individuals living in Muslim controlled areas, but these were still relatively humane compared to the ways many non state religious followers were treated at the same time in other regions of the world Jewish pogroms and pagan conversions by the sword come to mind.

  • 3:50 Yes the Muslim slave trade was a massively catastrophic for millions of people, but it also was, once again hardly exceptional for the time. It should also be noted that he talks about how the we don't talk about the Muslim slave trade in American history courses. This is more so due to the trans-atlantic slave trades relevance of American history specifically and the continued massive role it plays in modern American society.

  • 4:47 Vlad was not one of the few people who fought off Islamic expansion. Hundreds of leaders have fought off Muslim expansion into the west whether it be Charles the Hammer at the battle of Tours or the generations of Spanish kings who participated in the Reconquista, or Norman conquest of Sicily. These and many more fought against Islamic expansion and I think it is flatly wrong to assume that Vlad was one of the few who noticed the threat of Islam. Also he existed years after the major Crusades occurred so he was following in a long tradition of fighting of the Muslims

  • 5:13 When Pope Urban II called the first crusade he was not doing so because the Muslims were going to eradicate his culture, to him the threat of Islamic Empires moving into West Europe was a far off possibility. What he wanted was to improve relations with the Eastern Christians after the great schism and unite Christianity with conquest of Jerusalem not preserve his culture and way of life.

  • 5:42 The barbarism of the Crusades while certainly not a sole factor in Islamic distaste for the west, is still most definitely a contributing factor. From their perspective the west has a long history of meddling in Middle Eastern affairs notably with recent colonialism and interferences in local government. While it probably doesn't shape their view of the West it certainly contributes to the narrative of western intervention

  • 6:01 While the Christians were technically “taking back” Jerusalem it is worth noting that the Muslims had been living there for the last 500 years and were firmly entrenched in the territory. The Muslims in Jerusalem had lived there for generations. It is also worth noting that the Christians weren't even the original owners of Jerusalem it was built by the Israelites in the age of antiquity and has passed hand dozens of times since then, the Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians, and Jews had just as much of claim on Jerusalem as the Christians

  • 6:15 It was Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon who were teaming on Israel

  • 6:30 The blood up to their knees account while scientifically inaccurate was taken from exaggerated sources from the time and isn't taken literally by most people also just because the streets weren't literally flooding with blood doesn't mean it wasn't a slaughter the entire population was nearly wiped out

  • 7:02 I find it ironic that he says that he talks about how the sacking of Jerusalem wasn't that bad and mentions how a Synagogue was destroyed and it members killed, while earlier in the video he discusses how the desecration of religious sites was the sign of the ultimate brutality of Islam

  • 7:40 I highly doubt they teach the “blood up to their knees” comment literally or maybe Steven has been taking some really bad classes.

  • 8:00 Just because it was standard for siegers to offer deals ahead of time does not that the Sack of Jerusalem wasn't horribly brutal for the time because it was. It has gone down in history as a mythic display of destruction. Plus dring most sieges the entire population would be almost completely annihilated.

  • 9:20 Once again the Crusades were not intended to stop Islamic “barbarism”. Also I would hardly call them necessary when they barely accomplished anything in terms of halting Islamic expansion. In fact I’d argue that it helped Islamic expansion by crippling the important barrier between the east and west that was the Byzantine Empire during the 4th Crusade allowing the Ottomans to fill the power vacuum and push into Europe, as far as even Austria up until the 1800s.

[–]ThoctarTool of the Baltic Financiers 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I hate the false equivalency between the Muslim slave trade and the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade. You don't have the descendants of slaves in Southern Iraq or Egypt being seen as lesser or experiencing severe racial oppression into the present day.

[–]concussedYmirDank maymays are the new Nicene Creed 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not OP, just a formatting monkey. But I agree. It seems that one result of America's chattel slavery system is Americans seeking equivalents everywhere they can while trying to process it 150 years down the road from emancipation.

The Arab slave trade shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, of course, but there's a balance to be struck in qualifying the differences between the two institutions, and inadvertently appearing to be justifying the trade.

[–]ThoctarTool of the Baltic Financiers 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh, yes, I was just making the point here as well because I have a feeling many people will be reading your summary and not the original post in its current form.

[–]concussedYmirDank maymays are the new Nicene Creed 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

  • 9:34 The Armenian Genocide while a massive tragedy did not occur because the Ottomans were Muslim and therefore barbaric, ethnic cleansings while terrible were not completely extraordinary for the time (though the Armenian one was especially brutal) one simple needs to look a the Holocaust which was perpetuated by many Western European Christians to see that the Ottomans were not unique because they were Muslims.

  • 10:01 While it is terrible than brutal executions for seemingly small crimes is a terrible thing to be happening today in the Middle East let us not forget that the these concepts were still widespread through Europe until only the last century where they fell into decline. Let us not forget that the last public Guillotine execution in France was in only 1939 less than a century ago.

  • 10:14 Public executions in stadiums weren't a “a warm up act” moreso stadiums are just a convenient venue to kill someone in front of a bunch of people

  • 10:23 Islamic brutality once again was not the sole motivation for the Crusades while the killing of Pilgrims was a large outrage prior to the Crusades evidence has shown that these reports were exaggerated and this was only one small piece of the puzzle of motivations for the Crusades.

  • 10:31 Being really horrible to people was the entire world back then, everyone was kind of shitty to each other Europe included. Public executions were considered public entertainment back then.

  • 11:04 The Islamic World does make progress you dumbass, the Islamic GOlden Age was a massive step forward for art, culture,and the sciences, and was a massive inspiration on European progress during the Renaissance. I’m to tired to list individual achievements but let's just say that we wouldn't be in the place we are today without Islamic advancements in all fields.

  • 11:15 NOT CRUSADES, JIHADS

  • 11:37 No Christians were not advancing into the new world before the Crusades, the age colonization did not take place until the late 1400s way after the Crusades were called. And if you mean New World figuratively it's still wrong. The development of western culture and sciences while often exaggeratedly so was still stunted during the dark ages. It's not like they had to postpone their advancements to go stop the Muslims or something. Plus the Crusades actually pushed Western Culture forward after the end of the wars with renewed contact with the east. .

  • 11:50 NOT CRUSADES, THEY WERE JIHADS

  • 11:58: Arguably that stunting of Islamic development was at least in part because of Western Colonialism, the West did divide the Middle East after WWI creating many conflicts and propping up ant development dictators. JUS SAYIN

  • OK finally done, hope you all enjoyed this and sorry for the Grammar errors, it's really not my strong suit.

[–]TiakoTevinter apologist, shill for Big Lyrium 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Notable examples being the Northern Crusades which were far from defensive. These were not wars against a massive threat but were rather attacks on neighboring pagans.

Is this your claim or the video's? Because the northern Crusades were not ex nihilo, they were part of a long history of mutual military activity. In particular, one of the main justifications for the Wendish Crusade were the persistent slave raids conducted by Slavic raiders.

Obviously I am not justifying the crusades here, but I do not really see how those wars were less defensive than a group of largely French knights attacking the Levant.

[–]jyanoshik[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You are totally right about the slavic raids. I was thinking of the Northern Crusades more so in the context of the Livonian Crusades which on paper seemed more like a just straight religious military conquest, but you are proabably right there are always more complex factors involved.

[–]DirishJudyism had one big God named Yahoo[M] 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

OP, if you want an unordered list, you need to add a space after every *. Right now it thinks you're starting italics and never close them. So like this:

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8prwEJkJ3Ds  
  • Essentially this is a video “debunking” myths about the Crusades. While I broadly agree with the general idea of the video in the sense that the Crusades impact is often exaggerated and used as false equivalencies, there are so many historical holes in the way Steven has created his argument that I feel it needed to be addressed.  
  • 1:32 Steven refers to the Crusades proper as the “second” crusades with the argument that the Muslim jihads, were really the first. This of course ignores the fundamental difference between the concept of a Crusade and the concept of Jihad. Although both fall under the banner of a holy war, they are both different in motivation and execution. Jihads were a sort of justification for the expansion of Islamic Empires, a reasoning for the conquests that would inevitably occur with the creation of the powerful Arabian Emperor. Crusades on the other hand were meant as specific expeditions to seize strategic and culturally significant targets rather than a justification for general expansion. They are of course still holy wars but I think calling the first age of Jihad the original Crusade is frankly false.

[–]jyanoshik[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you for this, I was not aware of how to make the bullets work, obviously

[–]IlitaristIndians can't lift British tea. Boston tea party was inside job. 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (10子コメント)

[–]jyanoshik[S] 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

He actually cites that video in his video

[–]IlitaristIndians can't lift British tea. Boston tea party was inside job. 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This makes me happy. Now I'll have to watch the full video.

[–]Party_Like_Its_1789 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Can you briefly explain why this is bad history?

[–]IlitaristIndians can't lift British tea. Boston tea party was inside job. 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The guy only counts very specific battles as part of the Crusades, probably the big battles. He ignores several crusades, probably cause they weren't aimed at the Holy Land specifically - he only counts till 1260s and there were crusades as late as 1443, though some of them were against Pagans, not Muslims.

The other thing is that the guy counts every battle with Muslims involved as part of the Jihad, including some semi-reliable accounts of skirmishes and fights were Muslims were on the defensive. He says that for Muslims fighting any infidel is honourable so it's a part of the Jihad which is seriously twisted logic. If you'd apply the same logic to Christians you'd have to count Byzantines constantly fighting Muslims in Asia, Spanish and Italians fighting them around Mediterranean... There's no doubt there was as much religious zeal on a Christian side when they attacked Muslims. Plus we can show the rest of the world - there's no doubt that Christian spread over Africa and Asia was as sudden and militant as Muslim one and there were much, much more efficient with America - using religious justification there too.

One more small problem: he talks about Islam attacking "classical civilization" as if it ended Rome. In reality for most of those territories Islam was progressive force uniting small disorganized tribes. He probably means Persia and Byzantines but in case of Byzantines it's extremely hypocritical to say Muslims had destroyed it.

EDIT: Rewatching the video now, the guy specifically says that Islam fought against classical civilizations of Rome and Greece. Which is... Technically somewhat true if you call Eastern Roman Empire both Rome and Greece. Yet most of that territory was not Roman or Greek for a very long time.

[–]gaiusmariusj 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hey, the Eastern Romans asked you what the fuck is this Byzantine business you are talking about.

Don't come to bad history and call the Eastern Roman territory not Roman or Greek.

[–]friskydongo 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can only briefly say right now that he considers pretty much anything bigger than a bar fight, in which the instigator is Muslim, to be a Jihad or an act of Islamic aggression or whatever. On the other hand he has a much more narrow definition with regard to what he labels as Christian aggression.

[–]DirishJudyism had one big God named Yahoo 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Here's an AH post about this. His PhD is also not in history (it's physics) and the name Bill Warner is a pseudonym.

[–]P-01SGod made men, but RSAF Enfield made them civilized. 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

it's physics

Damnit. Of course it is.

Relevant SMBC

[–]Katamariguy 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

11:37 No Christians were not advancing into the new world before the Crusades, the age colonization did not take place until the late 1400s way after the Crusades were called.

To be far too charitable, Norse settlement of Greenland overlapped with the Crusades... somewhat. I mean, this doesn't validate Crowder's argument, and I have no reason to believe that Islam had much of anything to do with the reasons that Norse efforts didn't lead to large-scale colonialism.

[–]jyanoshik[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good point, but yeah it still wasnt large scale colonialism in the way Crowder was talking about it.

[–]SteveBuscemiLover125 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hahaha, if you look at the comments in that video, you'll find a guy saying that "without you, Alex Jones and Paul Joseph Watson I wouldn't know any of this". That moment when Alex Jones is your primary source of knowledge.

[–]Dieutain 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hillary Clinton = Intergalactic invading demon

[–]SnapshillBotPassing Turing Tests since 1956 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Once again Morty, you're about 20% right and 80% idiotic babble

Snapshots:

  1. This Post - archive.org, megalodon.jp*, snew.github.io, archive.is

  2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pr... - archive.org, megalodon.jp*, archive.is

I am a bot. (Info / Contact)

[–]_Treadmill 42 ポイント43 ポイント  (18子コメント)

Racism! The Number One Cause of Bad History since Edward Gibbon!

[–]lestrigone 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (16子コメント)

Since racism was invented, probably.

[–]SolidBlues 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (15子コメント)

Excuse me but don't you know that racism is natural and has always existed? /s

[–]lestrigone 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (14子コメント)

Since before or after capitalism?

[–]SolidBlues 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (13子コメント)

They've both existed since the moment the first animal came to exist. White cavemen were not only racist against black cavemen, but the white cavemen also practiced capitalism.

[–]lestrigone 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (12子コメント)

My thesis will be whether Zerg can or cannot be capitalist.

[–]ThoctarTool of the Baltic Financiers 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (11子コメント)

....Actually that is really interesting. I guess it depends whether you count a hivemind as being a single entity for transactional purposes.

[–]Jebediah_Blasts_offShitposting, the underappreciated artform 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (10子コメント)

or if the regular/Primal Zerg even have an economy

[–]ThoctarTool of the Baltic Financiers 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

On their own Zerg don't form an economy, they are completely individual and do not produce goods, they only fight for their own survival, at least from what we've seen/I am aware of.

[–]lestrigone 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

But can essence/biomass be considered functionally a form of currency?

[–]FirstEstate 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have a genuine question, and I promise this is not 'concern trolling' or whatever it's called to push some agenda.

Is it really correct to call anti-Islamic posts, videos, or articles racist? Islam is a religion that incorporates many different races. Yes, there is a near 100% overlap in the circles of Arabs and Muslims, but this makes it sound like being anti-Muslim is only against Arabs. Not African or Asian Muslims. Of which there are many.

If you're going to accuse them of something, wouldn't it be religious bigotry?

[–]Rhodis 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Seen this video come up a few times, nice to see someone debunk it fully. Though I'd disagree on many scholars thinking of the later crusades (post-1291) as not real crusades. The traditionalist school of historiography (crusades are only those that go to the Levant) isn't very dominant anymore, at least among UK academics. The leading current crusade historians like Housley, Tyerman, and the late Riley-Smith are more pluralist in their view (if it's organised as a crusade by the Church, then it's a crusade), meaning that crusading could be considered to include campaigns like Lepanto in 1571 and to have continued in Europe until the expulsion of the Hospitallers from Malta in 1798.

[–]jyanoshik[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thats definatly a fair point, but I think the kind of Crusades he was decribing/debunking in the video were the more traditional ones that took place in the 1200s.

[–]chadschalkle 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

You say stuff like, "ethnically cleansing" at the time wasn't all too extreme, while in the Ottoman empire it was one of the more brutal and extreme cleansings to have ever happened. To support your claim here you related to Nazis, who were Western and Christian but heavily fanaticized. It seems like two different scenarios and kind of comparing apples to oranges in a way

[–]jyanoshik[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Sorry if I misworded I didnt mean it was not all that extreme at the time, I meant that it wasnt some sort of uniquely islamic pratice. The Armenian Genocide was exceptionally terrible, but all groups are capable of genocide not just muslims.

[–]chadschalkle 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for the clarification,I really enjoyed your post

[–]ThoctarTool of the Baltic Financiers 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Particularly since the Armenian Genocide was committed pretty significantly in the name of nationalism, not religion, although as always the two factors are hard to separate.

[–]GoogleStoleMyWife 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Differences in religion would go against the new Ottoman goal of a homogeneous Turkish nation.

[–]XealeonErik the Often Times Red 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The sacking of Constantinople was not the “big” reason for the Crusades

I'm not even sure where he would have gotten that idea. Like the First Crusade travels across Europe, through the Byzantine Empire, made a deal with Alexius Comnenus, helped the Byzantines retake some of their territory in Anatolia, and then traveled on through the Levant, besieged several towns culminating in taking over Jerusalem and then, what? One of them just looked at the map and was like "Wait, shit, this isn't Constantinople!" Were they trying to lull the Byzantines into a false sense of security or just the most amazingly incompetent military force in history?

This will come up more a bit later but the era of Ottoman aggression in the Christian Balkans was after the golden age of Crusading

This seems to come up a lot, people just assume Turks=Ottomans.

When Pope Urban II called the first crusade he was not doing so because the Muslims were going to eradicate his culture, to him the threat of Islamic Empires moving into West Europe was a far off possibility.

Even Urban's exaggerated depiction of Muslims while trying to build support for the First Crusade never depicted them as an imminent threat to Western Europe, they were portrayed as brutalizing Christians in the Levant. The idea of Islam as a threat to the lands of the Frankish nobility who were the target audience of the First Crusade would probably have been laughable.

[–]zsimmortal 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (3子コメント)

*3:32 The use of the Jizya tax and the second class citizen status of non-muslims was a problem for individuals living in Muslim controlled areas, but these were still relatively humane compared to the ways many non state religious followers were treated at the same time in other regions of the world Jewish pogroms and pagan conversions by the sword come to mind.

Didn't even watch the video, but this greatly ignores that the Crusader kingdoms imposed a poll tax on non-Christians. If one wants to bring up the Jizya as a discriminatory practice, don't just ignore the exact same action taken by the Crusaders immediately after the conquest.

Generally speaking, 'Crusade debunking' videos (like that steaming pile of garbage 'Real Crusades History') are made by people who confirmed their 'feels' through faulty or biased scholarship (if we can call it that) and try to propagate half truths and not well understood historical events. The discourse has also been hijacked by people just saying 'Crusaders weren't that bad, in fact they were actually great but they never tell you that, the Muslims though...'.

[–]Blonsquillinho -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Isn't this just the same whataboutism though?

[–]zsimmortal 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you can explain how I am doing whataboutism, then I'll gladly justify what I wrote, but I'm not sure what you're refering to.

[–]ThoctarTool of the Baltic Financiers 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I hate the false equivalency between the Muslim slave trade and the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade. You don't have the descendants of slaves in Southern Iraq or Egypt being seen as lesser or experiencing severe racial oppression into the present day.

[–]Blonsquillinho 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The word fir black people in many Arab countries is still "abeed", or "slave." Shit even certain Arab leaders referred to Pres Obama as such. While the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade does have further reaching effects, let's not ignore the racism that still exists against blacks in many Arab societies

[–]ThoctarTool of the Baltic Financiers 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, I mean moreso the systemic oppression of large groups within society, apologies if it came off that I was ignoring the racism that Arab societies often have towards blacks.

[–]friskydongo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't know about you guys but I find that all historical analysis should begin with a rather blatant political bias. The more blatant the better.

[–]jyanoshik[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm personally fine with political bias in historical analysis, I think it useful to look at hostory from the lens of current day politics. But this video was just so inaccurate, that it reall doesn't matter what he trying to say because all the facts are wrong.

[–]Zhang_Xueliang 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (9子コメント)

If you're of the opinion that the crusades were a justified reaction to something that happened 400 years ago, you're unintentionally justifying contemporary terrorism. It's in living memory for the current generation of murderers.

[–]Remon_Kewl 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Which crusade was a reaction to something that happened 400 before its time?

[–]concussedYmirDank maymays are the new Nicene Creed 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (6子コメント)

The 4th Crusade was a direct response to Nikephoros I claiming Venice as Byzantine territory in 814.

That's a fact

[–]DirishJudyism had one big God named Yahoo 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (4子コメント)

What's your source for this? Nikephoros I died in 811 fighting the Bulgars.

[–]concussedYmirDank maymays are the new Nicene Creed 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (1子コメント)

My primary source is sarcasm

[–]DirishJudyism had one big God named Yahoo 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Curses, I can't beat that one.

[–]Goatf00tThe Black Hand was created by Anita Sarkeesian. 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Nikephoros I died in 811 fighting the Bulgars.

You mean "was turned into a kitchen utensil". :P

[–]DirishJudyism had one big God named Yahoo 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It wasn't quite that bad. I'm sure he ended up in the trophy cabinet and not just in the kitchen closet.

[–]Remon_Kewl 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Eh? The 4th Crusade didn't even start with Constantinople as a target.

Even if that were true, your logic is backwards. Reacting to someone who makes a claim now about something that happened long ago is totally not the same as reacting to something that happened long ago.

My primary source is sarcasm

Never mind then.

[–]Thrashmad 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also the Native Americans and African-Americans would like to have a word on actions hundreds of years in the past. But of course the people who have that opinion likely also think that those actions doesn't have any relevance to present day society.

[–]Jebediah_Blasts_offShitposting, the underappreciated artform 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Reformatted for better readability

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8prwEJkJ3Ds

*Essentially this is a video “debunking” myths about the Crusades. While I broadly agree with the general idea of the video in the sense that the Crusades impact is often exaggerated and used as false equivalencies, there are so many historical holes in the way Steven has created his argument that I feel it needed to be addressed.

*1:32 Steven refers to the Crusades proper as the “second” crusades with the argument that the Muslim jihads, were really the first. This of course ignores the fundamental difference between the concept of a Crusade and the concept of Jihad. Although both fall under the banner of a holy war, they are both different in motivation and execution. Jihads were a sort of justification for the expansion of Islamic Empires, a reasoning for the conquests that would inevitably occur with the creation of the powerful Arabian Emperor. Crusades on the other hand were meant as specific expeditions to seize strategic and culturally significant targets rather than a justification for general expansion. They are of course still holy wars but I think calling the first age of Jihad the original Crusade is frankly false.

*1:45 While it is true that many of the Crusades were done with the purposes of liberating Christian holy sites and defending from Islamic expansion some were Christians attacking non christians and/or heretics because they were weaker or of another faith. Notable examples being the Northern Crusades which were far from defensive. These were not wars against a massive threat but were rather attacks on neighboring pagans. Or the Hussite Crusades which sought to put down the heretical Hussite beliefs in Bohemia, both at least somewhat fit the bill on Christians going around the world killing and conquering non christians for offensive purposes.

*2:30 This will come up more a bit later but the era of Ottoman aggression in the Christian Balkans was after the golden age of Crusading which most consider to have ended in the late 12000s while Muslim expansion in europe took place in the early 1400s meaning that Ottoman aggression was not a factor in the initial outbreak or even the continuation of real Crusades. Sure a few Crusades were called on the Ottomans but they were much smaller affairs than the massive expeditions of previous centuries and many scholars don't even consider them Crusades proper.

*2:47 The sacking of Constantinople was not the “big” reason for the Crusades, the first Crusade was called in 1096 in response to Turkish expansion into eastern anatolia, not the sacking of Constantinople which was in 1453 almost 300 year later.

*3:13 There wasn't anything especially brutal about Islamic expansion, it was rather standard for the time with notable exceptions of course. But as a whole these conquests were relatively normal. In fact many Islamic military practices could be considered much more tolerant for the time, including the lack of forced conversions and the protection of Christians and Jews, as so called People of The Book. The example he cites as being especially brutal being the desecration of the Tombs of 2 saints was also not exceptional for the time and the destruction of Holy Sites as a result of conquests was done by various conquerors Islamic and not, including many Christians.

*3:20 “Dick move” is not a military term

*3:27 Islamic torturing was not exceptional for the time, many cultures had extremely brutal techniques for torturing and killing individuals at the time. There's a reason the term “going medieval on someone” exists.

*3:32 The use of the Jizya tax and the second class citizen status of non-muslims was a problem for individuals living in Muslim controlled areas, but these were still relatively humane compared to the ways many non state religious followers were treated at the same time in other regions of the world Jewish pogroms and pagan conversions by the sword come to mind.

*3:50 Yes the Muslim slave trade was a massively catastrophic for millions of people, but it also was, once again hardly exceptional for the time. It should also be noted that he talks about how the we don't talk about the Muslim slave trade in American history courses. This is more so due to the trans-atlantic slave trades relevance of American history specifically and the continued massive role it plays in modern American society.

*4:47 Vlad was not one of the few people who fought off Islamic expansion. Hundreds of leaders have fought off Muslim expansion into the west whether it be Charles the Hammer at the battle of Tours or the generations of Spanish kings who participated in the Reconquista, or Norman conquest of Sicily. These and many more fought against Islamic expansion and I think it is flatly wrong to assume that Vlad was one of the few who noticed the threat of Islam. Also he existed years after the major Crusades occurred so he was following in a long tradition of fighting of the Muslims

*5:13 When Pope Urban II called the first crusade he was not doing so because the Muslims were going to eradicate his culture, to him the threat of Islamic Empires moving into West Europe was a far off possibility. What he wanted was to improve relations with the Eastern Christians after the great schism and unite Christianity with conquest of Jerusalem not preserve his culture and way of life.

*5:42 The barbarism of the Crusades while certainly not a sole factor in Islamic distaste for the west, is still most definitely a contributing factor. From their perspective the west has a long history of meddling in Middle Eastern affairs notably with recent colonialism and interferences in local government. While it probably doesn't shape their view of the West it certainly contributes to the narrative of western intervention

*6:01 While the Christians were technically “taking back” Jerusalem it is worth noting that the Muslims had been living there for the last 500 years and were firmly entrenched in the territory. The Muslims in Jerusalem had lived there for generations. It is also worth noting that the Christians weren't even the original owners of Jerusalem it was built by the Israelites in the age of antiquity and has passed hand dozens of times since then, the Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians, and Jews had just as much of claim on Jerusalem as the Christians

*6:15 It was Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon who were teaming on Israel

[–]Jebediah_Blasts_offShitposting, the underappreciated artform 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

*6:30 The blood up to their knees account while scientifically inaccurate was taken from exaggerated sources from the time and isn't taken literally by most people also just because the streets weren't literally flooding with blood doesn't mean it wasn't a slaughter the entire population was nearly wiped out

*7:02 I find it ironic that he says that he talks about how the sacking of Jerusalem wasn't that bad and mentions how a Synagogue was destroyed and it members killed, while earlier in the video he discusses how the desecration of religious sites was the sign of the ultimate brutality of Islam

*7:40 I highly doubt they teach the “blood up to their knees” comment literally or maybe Steven has been taking some really bad classes.

*8:00 Just because it was standard for siegers to offer deals ahead of time does not that the Sack of Jerusalem wasn't horribly brutal for the time because it was. It has gone down in history as a mythic display of destruction. Plus dring most sieges the entire population would be almost completely annihilated.

*9:20 Once again the Crusades were not intended to stop Islamic “barbarism”. Also I would hardly call them necessary when they barely accomplished anything in terms of halting Islamic expansion. In fact I’d argue that it helped Islamic expansion by crippling the important barrier between the east and west that was the Byzantine Empire during the 4th Crusade allowing the Ottomans to fill the power vacuum and push into Europe, as far as even Austria up until the 1800s.

*9:34 The Armenian Genocide while a massive tragedy did not occur because the Ottomans were Muslim and therefore barbaric, ethnic cleansings while terrible were not completely extraordinary for the time (though the Armenian one was especially brutal) one simple needs to look a the Holocaust which was perpetuated by many Western European Christians to see that the Ottomans were not unique because they were Muslims.

*10:01 While it is terrible than brutal executions for seemingly small crimes is a terrible thing to be happening today in the Middle East let us not forget that the these concepts were still widespread through Europe until only the last century where they fell into decline. Let us not forget that the last public Guillotine execution in France was in only 1939 less than a century ago.

*10:14 Public executions in stadiums weren't a “a warm up act” moreso stadiums are just a convenient venue to kill someone in front of a bunch of people

*10:23 Islamic brutality once again was not the sole motivation for the Crusades while the killing of Pilgrims was a large outrage prior to the Crusades evidence has shown that these reports were exaggerated and this was only one small piece of the puzzle of motivations for the Crusades.

*10:31 Being really horrible to people was the entire world back then, everyone was kind of shitty to each other Europe included. Public executions were considered public entertainment back then.

*11:04 The Islamic World does make progress you dumbass, the Islamic GOlden Age was a massive step forward for art, culture,and the sciences, and was a massive inspiration on European progress during the Renaissance. I’m to tired to list individual achievements but let's just say that we wouldn't be in the place we are today without Islamic advancements in all fields.

*11:15 NOT CRUSADES, JIHADS

*11:37 No Christians were not advancing into the new world before the Crusades, the age colonization did not take place until the late 1400s way after the Crusades were called. And if you mean New World figuratively it's still wrong. The development of western culture and sciences while often exaggeratedly so was still stunted during the dark ages. It's not like they had to postpone their advancements to go stop the Muslims or something. Plus the Crusades actually pushed Western Culture forward after the end of the wars with renewed contact with the east.

*11:50 NOT CRUSADES, THEY WERE JIHADS

*11:58: Arguably that stunting of Islamic development was at least in part because of Western Colonialism, the West did divide the Middle East after WWI creating many conflicts and propping up ant development dictators. JUS SAYIN

*OK finally done, hope you all enjoyed this and sorry for the Grammar errors, it's really not my strong suit.