36 replies to this topic

[JG13_opcode]

G-4 and A-5 vs 1b and 5F early?

Emil vs rata only?

I don't know. If you wanted to include as many aircraft as possible while keeping it at least semi-historical, if you were designing a plane set for Warclouds 2.0, which aircraft would you choose and why?

It's tough because some aircraft are very obviously better than their counterparts. I'm thinking here pe2 and F-4.

Edited by JG13_opcode, 01 June 2017 - 02:23.

[Feathered_IV]

Fw versus Fw would be good.  I'd like to see how certain players handled that.

[Gambit21]

Fw versus Fw would be good.  I'd like to see how certain players handled that.

 

That would separate the smart pilots from the dweebs, no doubt.

[JG13_opcode]

I was hoping for serious replies

Edited by JG13_opcode, 01 June 2017 - 01:19.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Tough question to answer maybe.

 

The Bf109G-2 versus the Yak-1B might be the closest I can think of right now.

 

The I-16 Type 24 versus the Bf109E-7 might also be pretty decently close. In both cases the Bf109s are better at altitude and hold the high ground.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

No, the G2 outperforms the 1b in most respects. I think the G4 vs 1b is a closer match at most altitudes except for 60+/- seconds of boost for the G4. G4 is a little draggier than the G2 and levels the field a bit. Next closest would probably be the E7 v I16. Third might be the 190 v -5F but that is a bit of a stretch and requires a pretty good -5 driver. All of my experience is fighting the Russian crates so your mileage may vary.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf, 01 June 2017 - 02:29.

[Gambit21]

I-16 and 109E would get my vote for most fun, no doubt.

Mostly because of the largely balanced match-up...but also just the visceral, 'early war feeling' both aircraft lend.

 

The thing is this type of question becomes largely moot in actual practice since most pilots fail to fly their respective aircraft to it's strengths.

Thus often if you fly smart the balance often will tip in your favor, even if on paper you should be at a disadvantage.

I lost count of how many Hellcats, Corsairs and Jugs I dragged to the deck and dispatched in a knife fight while flying the Zeke in the old sim.

Balance on paper was usually meaningless.

 

Still it's a valid question...I think A5/La-5F is also a good possibility, but I haven't had time to fly either yet so cant' confirm.

Damn...my limited stick time over the past 18 months means I have some real goodness waiting for me when I finally set an afternoon aside to fly.

[Finkeren]

Bf 110E vs P-40E

[hrafnkolbrandr]

Bf 110E vs P-40E

Hmmmm....that's actually not too bad.

[JG19_DendroAspis]

PE2 vs all LW planes.... I have seen 1 PE2 take down multiple 109's and 190's and still fly away.

[6./ZG26_Asgar]

Bf 110E vs P-40E

110s would shredd the P-40s

[redribbon]

PE2 vs all LW planes.... I have seen 1 PE2 take down multiple 109's and 190's and still fly away.

Yes when you switch to rear gunner and have noob 109/190 pilots attacking from your six, same on all bombers with rear gunner.
They approach slowly on your six, you wait they come in fireing range and take them out.
Once i shot down 2 109's and damaged one 190 in a row, they were attacking me in the same time together with a bf110 from high alt and with more energy. When bf110 engaged me i was out of ammo on rear turret so i switched back to pilot seat and engaged air brake so moment later 110 was in front of me trying to climb but even my energy was beed out i managed to nose up and snipe and damage him, two min later i've got his kill when he crash landed. That was fun.
Good pilots will never attack bomber from his six.

[redribbon]

There is another thing to do when enemy is engaging your pe-2.
Get down on deck so he can't get on your low 6 o'clock where your blind spot is, keep him on high six where your gunner is effective

[71st_AH_Barnacles]

Mig3 v 109F2

[JG19_DendroAspis]

PE2 is so fast you can sometimes only catch up to it after a few minutes, by the time you have gotten to a safe position to attack, he is either back at base or there are 45 yaks on you that he has called in for help.

 

And stop using the word noobs! ........ my teammates are not NOOBS.... they have thousands of hours behind them and are often up in the top 10 and 20's in WoL rankings.... the PE2 is a beast to attack and its often a certain death sentence or at the very least a badly damaged plane that you have to nurse back home. 

 

The russians have superior ground and low level dominance with tank like planes and super turn and burn dogfighters that dominate the deck its very hard to stop the VVS planes when they coordinate an attack. My favourite thing to do was go in an IL2 41 series, drop bombs on targets and then take on 109's with my 23mm laser kannone..... pure destruction. 

Edited by JG19_DendroAspis, 01 June 2017 - 10:04.

[Monostripezebra]

I favor early war BoM settings.. E7 vs Rata is very good.. and throwing in 110s and p40s makes it interesting, as P40 can bring speed... but still the 110 can be a pretty dominant plane there. expanding it with few F2 and mig3 also stays pretty balanced. THe only problem in this setting is the ground attack role.. I actually think the Il2 ´41 has a too good energy retention and if it was me, I would rather but in the 42 version with a locked reargunner.  Off course, the Stuka will always remain to be pretty outclassed in a way.. Once there are Mig3s, I see no trouble adding Ju88s, the best bomber in the game. Then the Pe2 s.35 fits in quite well.

 

Ju88 and Pe2 is actually a set-up where the Ju88 is clearly the better bomber, but the pe2 is more versatile, even though it carries just the load of a Me110... and if used down low, the 110 is actually better for the fast&low strike role. 

 

 

 

 

 

PE2 vs all LW planes.... I have seen 1 PE2 take down multiple 109's and 190's and still fly away.

 

 

 

.. the PE2 is a beast to attack and its often a certain death sentence or at the very least a badly damaged plane that you have to nurse back home. 

 

that all depends on how you attack.. and if you just hold guns onto it, in the E7 and F2 with the durable engine, you might nurse the plane back home smoking black, but the pe2 will crashland far from home.. that´s just  how it is.

 

It really has changed a lot in the last patch, the Pe2 s35 is by no means any more durable then the ju88 now. I´ve even seen it´s wing shot off in one pass. The idea that it now could take down several 190s needs very very noobish 190s.

If you would start flying Pe you probably would get a different picture..

[redribbon]

PE2 is so fast you can sometimes only catch up to it after a few minutes, by the time you have gotten to a safe position to attack, he is either back at base or there are 45 yaks on you that he has called in for help.

And stop using the word noobs! ........ my teammates are not NOOBS.... they have thousands of hours behind them and are often up in the top 10 and 20's in WoL rankings.... the PE2 is a beast to attack and its often a certain death sentence or at the very least a badly damaged plane that you have to nurse back home.

The russians have superior ground and low level dominance with tank like planes and super turn and burn dogfighters that dominate the deck its very hard to stop the VVS planes when they coordinate an attack. My favourite thing to do was go in an IL2 41 series, drop bombs on targets and then take on 109's with my 23mm laser kannone..... pure destruction.

Didn't want to insult anybody but if they attack like they attack than they are using wrong tactics, don't know how to fly or they are unexperienced. Not all do that, there are pilot knowing pe-2 weak spots and using it.
I never did call help and flying alone on wol. Also i see ton of lf fighters few pe-2. Never vvs outnumbered LF over objective.
Pe-2 level flight max speed is 400kmh.

Cheers!

Edited by redribbon, 01 June 2017 - 11:07.

[temujin]

There is another thing to do when enemy is engaging your pe-2.
Get down on deck so he can't get on your low 6 o'clock where your blind spot is, keep him on high six where your gunner is effective

What planet are you living on? It has a .50 cal on the bottom ventral too.

Finkeren is right- P40 and 110 is the best even matchup

Edited by temujin, 01 June 2017 - 16:18.

[redribbon]

What planet are you living on? It has a .50 cal on the bottom ventral too.

Finkeren is right- P40 and 110 is the best even matchup

On planet where i only use top rear gunner and let AI handle bottom cos of visibility and ease of use andd not to mention limiting his area.
Still any fighter attacking bomber from his six and hold his six should not whine when being damaged or killed.
I fly both sides not just superior LF

[Sgt_Joch]

this is from QMBs vs AI, not H2H.

 

109E7 vs P40

 

Mig3 vs 109F2

 

190A3 vs LA5f

 

Yak1b vs 109G2

 

obviously not ACs with the same specs or strengths, but similar in capabilities so you can feel confident of winning 50% + of the time if you play to your ACs advantages.

Edited by Sgt_Joch, 01 June 2017 - 21:30.

[JG13_opcode]

So, suppose you had:

 

190A-3, 109G-2 and G-4 with the 110G, stuka, Ju 88 and the He 111 on one side.  On the other, suppose you had the Yak-1b, La-5F early, the Peshka, and the 1943 model il2.

 

Does that seem woefully out of balance?  My gut says VVS has an advantage in ground attack, depending on the type of target (PTABs are awesome), and that each side's fighters have strengths and weaknesses over the other.  For example I believe the La-5 with the engine mod is the fastest on the deck, and the Yak is faster than the 190A-3 through the middle altitudes up to about 4500 or so IIRC.

 

The G-series 109s are not nearly so dominant at altitude as the F-4, and the 1b is quite fast up high.  Would you need the MiG-3?  The A-5? I think if you give VVS the MiG-3 you have a sandwich effect:  Advantages on the deck and up high, with Axis being superior in the medium altitude range.

Edited by JG13_opcode, 02 June 2017 - 20:53.

[temujin]

So, suppose you had:

190A-3, 109G-2 and G-4 with the 110G, stuka, Ju 88 and the He 111 on one side. On the other, suppose you had the Yak-1b, La-5F early, the Peshka, and the 1943 model il2.

Does that seem woefully out of balance? My gut says VVS has an advantage in ground attack, depending on the type of target (PTABs are awesome), and that each side's fighters have strengths and weaknesses over the other. For example I believe the La-5 with the engine mod is the fastest on the deck, and the Yak is faster than the 190A-3 through the middle altitudes up to about 4500 or so IIRC.

The G-series 109s are not nearly so dominant at altitude as the F-4, and the 1b is quite fast up high. Would you need the MiG-3? The A-5? I think if you give VVS the MiG-3 you have a sandwich effect: Advantages on the deck and up high, with Axis being superior in the medium altitude range.

La5 with m82f engine is still the same maximum 545kmh, slower than an a3. Power doesn't change

Edited by temujin, 02 June 2017 - 20:56.

[JG13_opcode]

La5 with m82f engine is still the same maximum 545kmh, slower than an a3. Power doesn't change

My understanding is that the 5F lets you run at Boosted rating forever, and therefore it's only slower than the 190 for the duration of the 190's Emergency rating (5 mins IIRC?) and afterwards the La-5 is faster.

Edit: in any case, do you think it is balanced, and if not what would you change?

Edited by JG13_opcode, 02 June 2017 - 21:18.

[temujin]

I think la5 and fockewulf is very interesting. Although focke is slightly faster and massively armed, it is 3.8 tons and la5 is only 3.3 so it has some great maneuverability advantages over the fockewulf. Also leading edge slats vs viscous fockewulf wing warping stall. Same power 1700hp. I think that's a pretty interesting scenario

[Finkeren]

When I ran tests, I found that both 190s are faster than the La-5f on the deck at combat power as well as emergency.

Are the planesets balanced? Not really, but neither were the historical ones, so I wouldn't change a thing.

I think la5 and fockewulf is very interesting. Although focke is slightly faster and massively armed, it is 3.8 tons and la5 is only 3.3 so it has some great maneuverability advantages over the fockewulf. Also leading edge slats vs viscous fockewulf wing warping stall. Same power 1700hp. I think that's a pretty interesting scenario

Before the FM corrections, this was a great match-up. Now the Fw 190 has a significant advantage, as it should have.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

I think if you give VVS the MiG-3 you have a sandwich effect

 

With the planeset you are considering the MiG-3 would be a bit too old for that. Like having a Bf 109 F-4 in an early 1944 theater alongside G-6... Could it work? Yes, but it's kinda unconsistent with service time. I know you said semi-historical, but don't know how strict you want to be.

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard, 02 June 2017 - 22:31.

[gnomechompsky]

Ju 52 vs P40
Sopwith camel vs p40
Wet piece of tissue vs p40

Kudos to you if you can get any kills with a p40 in this. It's horrible.


La-5 is also overrated. It's turn is pretty poor.
"buh buh buh speed on the deck!"

Great, hope you enjoy getting boom and zoomed all day by 109s.

Edited by gnomechompsky, 02 June 2017 - 22:41.

[Y-29.Layin_Scunion]

La-5 is also overrated. It's turn is pretty poor.
"buh buh buh speed on the deck!"

Great, hope you enjoy getting boom and zoomed all day by 109s.

I mean, if all you do is fly around the deck looking for a dogfight by yourself....sure.

If you escort IL-2s at 2500m and have to catch a 109 after a bounce at 1km, then yes....."muh speed on the deck" really does make a difference compared to other Soviet birds.

[JG13_opcode]

With the planeset you are considering the MiG-3 would be a bit too old for that. Like having a Bf 109 F-4 in an early 1944 theater alongside G-6... Could it work? Yes, but it's kinda unconsistent with service time. I know you said semi-historical, but don't know how strict you want to be.

 

Basically, I'm willing to fudge history if it makes a better, more balanced matchup in terms of performance and capabilities.  Adding the MiG-3 gives VVS a pretty solid high-alt performer.  Competitive with the G-2 and G-4; totally dominates both 190s above 6500 m.

 

Ju 52 vs P40
Sopwith camel vs p40
Wet piece of tissue vs p40

Kudos to you if you can get any kills with a p40 in this. It's horrible.


La-5 is also overrated. It's turn is pretty poor.
"buh buh buh speed on the deck!"

Great, hope you enjoy getting boom and zoomed all day by 109s.

 

Thanks for your positive and substantive contribution to the thread.

 

I mean, if all you do is fly around the deck looking for a dogfight by yourself....sure.

If you escort IL-2s at 2500m and have to catch a 109 after a bounce at 1km, then yes....."muh speed on the deck" really does make a difference compared to other Soviet birds.

 

Indeed.  I remember back in the good old days we used to take La-5s up to 8000m to get the drop on Germans in their nasty 109 Gustavs in online wars, because guys were too afraid of the concrete elevator that the MiG-3 had at speed.

[Gambit21]

I mean, if all you do is fly around the deck looking for a dogfight by yourself....sure.

If you escort IL-2s at 2500m and have to catch a 109 after a bounce at 1km, then yes....."muh speed on the deck" really does make a difference compared to other Soviet birds.

 

Young man, if you're job is escorting the IL2's at 2500m, why are you chasing the 109 to the deck?

[Finkeren]

Young man, if you're job is escorting the IL2's at 2500m, why are you chasing the 109 to the deck?

Because the IL2s are on the deck, while you fly top cover at 2500?

[RAY-EU]

My point of view the most realistic plane is the La5 but the roll rate is very fast ...
this plane if im not worng had fuel in the wings and that is no optimun for roll rates .

The most manubrable and had best roll rate was the Fw190 but is one of the worst in this sim ???

With axis planes you can not have sucssesfull in front confront with soviet planes because they are not manubrable restricted pich and slow roll and in history was the oposite , axis planes had more sucssesfull in front attacks against soviet for the armament and the manuabrebility .

In soviet front the average where +-10 soviet planes down for 1 axis shot down .

One of The main reason was that if you see the soviet cockpit plane there are more levers to manage that in axis where aoutomatic and in soviet planes levers were historically not automatic but in the game are automatic and should not be Historically realistic be and so if you play you will see that levers that are instruments moving alone and the soviet pilot should move in soviet planes , relative to alirons and mixes for the engine for oxigen starter and these were a distraction for the soviet pilots .

A good battle and ballanced escenario should be North Africa with similar tecnological capavilities with English and American planes in that way .

Edited by RAY-EU, Today, 10:09.

[Y-29.Layin_Scunion]

Young man, if you're job is escorting the IL2's at 2500m, why are you chasing the 109 to the deck?

 

Because the IL2s are on the deck, while you fly top cover at 2500?

Bingo.

IL-2s cruising at 1-1.5km while escort rolls around 2-2.5km altitude.  Obviously when the IL-2s get to the objective they will be on the deck engaging ground targets.  

I'm not going to fly in formation with an IL-2 while he does does ground attack.  Nor am I going to fly beside him during escort.

I'm saddened this needs to be explained on a flight sim forum to apparently, an old man.

[Gambit21]

Oh get over yourself - your post was hardly clear and I was just razzing.

[Y-29.Layin_Scunion]

As was I!

Glad we can all get along.

[7-GvShAP/Silas]

IL-2s cruising at 1-1.5km

 

 

Insanity. 20m more like, you can always pop up just before final onto the target if you must.

[Gambit21]

As was I!

Glad we can all get along.

Word
Upvote coming later when I'm not in my stinking phone.