全 58 件のコメント

[–]Rasalom72 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I am of the opinion that if this doesn't change... and men are getting screwed by women using the legal machine to destroy men's lives, then men will just end up doing far worse then raping someone. If you're life is destroyed, lots of men are going to ensure that the agent of their destruction is not around to enjoy it.

[–]froggie-style-pepe[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I doubt it. They would have had to have been abused as a young child for them to be that messed up. There are multiple studies that show that children of single moms & abused children will end up doing evil. It doesn't "just happen". No one is born evil, it's life that makes people evil. Like Hitler, or Stalin, or Bin Laden. They weren't born evil. Shit happened and they wanted to get revenge on the world.

[–]Liv47 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (42子コメント)

Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but the number of rape accusations is much fewer than the number of actually committed rapes, which in itself affects a very small percentage of the population. This seems like an extreme measure to suggest that all guys undertake when false accusations happen to so few people. Like, okay, using Google Chrome and letting Big Brother track your every movement is a fairly easy step, but wearing body cams?

Are you going to wear the bodycam when you've picked up a girl at the bar? Are you going to wear it all during the one-night stand - just to prove the sex was consensual? I can't imagine there would be many takers, especially since you'd have to get their permission to record them during the act.

[–]DRU-ZOD1980 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (24子コメント)

97% of rape accusations are unproven meaning only 3% is what we can say is true.

[–]Liv47 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (22子コメント)

That is a fascinating, if irrelevant, statistic.

[–]DRU-ZOD1980 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (20子コメント)

You said false rape accusations are rare. There's a chance that up to 97% are false.

[–]Liv47 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Uh... no, that's not how that works. Also, I said that false accusations are more rare than actual rapes. I'd love to see statistics that back up your assertion that 97% of rape accusations are false because that sounds fucking hilariously untenable, but not right now because it's not relevant. Rape accusations in and of themselves are not even that frequent.

[–]DRU-ZOD1980 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I said 97% could be false. Your characterization of my statement as if I said 97% are false is a lie. 3% of rape complaints end with a guilty verdict meaning an admission of guilt or proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The rest are not shown to be true.

[–]Liv47 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (5子コメント)

"Not shown to be true" doesn't mean "are false". Insufficient evidence is just as likely to clear a guilty man as an innocent man. Characterizing rape accusations that way is a very slippery slope, because anyone could pop out of the bushes and mention that guilty men walk away from rape charges without ever seeing jail time, and suddenly you're left arguing useful facts instead of misleading pop trivia.

Are you finished trying to derail this conversation? Can we talk about the OP's remarks now?

[–]bufedad 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

"Not shown to be true" doesn't mean "are false"

You hang on strawmen pretty hard.

"Not shown to be true" doesn't mean "are true" either.

Which leaves us with our current conundrum. How many of the unproven are true, and how many of the unproven are false?

[–]DRU-ZOD1980 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Nor did I say it did. I said it leaves the door open for them to be false. Given that most rape accusations don't have enough to go to trial means they are more likely false as something like rape leaves evidence.

[–]bufedad 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you responded to the wrong comment

[–]DRU-ZOD1980 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Given that 3% are proven true and many have been exonerated after that and law enforcement officials speaking out on the subject have stated in the 30-50% range (from memory) for false it's far more likely innocent men walk.

[–]Liv47 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're also suggesting that 47-67% of rape cases close with the guilty party walking away free. And then remember that only 2 of those 3 other percent ever see jail time.

No one is suggesting that the justice system is perfect, but there are too many facets to this for any party to believe they're intentionally getting a rough break.

[–]bufedad 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'd love to see statistics that back up your assertion that 97% of rape accusations are false because that sounds fucking hilariously untenable

That's not what was said. If you can't respond without resorting to strawmen, then you certainly don't have a leg to stand on.

He said 97% of rape accusations are unsubstantiated, not false. (I disagree on the exact percentage... my research shows it's between 85% and 95%).

Only the rape accusations that are proven false, are categorized as false. If we only categorize as true those that are proven true, that leaves almost all rape accusations as neither proven true nor false.

It is untenable (to use your word) to assume that all unproven accusations are true, just as it is untenable (to use your word again) to assume that all unproven accusations are false.

However, we don't know how many are true and how many are false. That's the problem. You assume that the rate of false rape accusations is less than the rate of actual rapes. We have no way of knowing whether that's true or not.

[–]WhiteTwink 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (9子コメント)

No, 97% are unsubstantiated IE there's not enough evidence. But evidence shows the VAST majority of rape is done by serial rapists and all that evidence from those women can be pulled back up later and used to find him and get him. Even if he's not being convicted for their rape they can usually get him for multiple counts of rape. But the individual cases may themselves be unsubstantiated forever.

Also those women can later go and civilly sue him for raping them even if there's beyond a reasonable doubt of evidence Bc civil courts use a "51% and your guilty" type system. So those serial rapists are getting their just desserts.

Source: US Army SHARP program

[–]bufedad 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But evidence shows the VAST majority of rape is done by serial rapists and all that evidence from those women can be pulled back up later and used to find him and get him

Um... that's not true either. There was one study done at one school. It was an older student night class school. It doesn't populate out to the rest of the population.

No, 97% are unsubstantiated IE there's not enough evidence.

Yes, not enough evidence to prove it happened or to prove it didn't happen. We don't know how many of those 97% are true or false.

[–]DRU-ZOD1980 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

97% unsubstantiated means there's no proof meaning the allegations could be false. Which is exactly what I said.

[–]WhiteTwink 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (6子コメント)

No unsubstantiated means not that there's no evidence but that there's not enough

[–]bufedad 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

No unsubstantiated means not that there's no evidence but that there's not enough

Yes... not enough to prove it's true. not enough to prove it's false.

The only rape accusations marked false are the ones where there is enough evidence to prove they are false.

The only rape accusations we should assume are true, are those where there is enough evidence to prove they are true.

The rest, we really don't know whether they are true or false.

[–]WhiteTwink 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Okay I'll give you that

But do you at least admit that we should pursue and investigate every report as if it's true? I mean not slandering the guy but legitimately searching to see if it's true, say the rape happened but we simply don't have enough evidence of who-dun-it.

[–]bufedad 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

But do you at least admit that we should pursue and investigate every report as if it's true?

No, I don't agree with that.

We should investigate every report to determine what is true. We should pursue it tirelessly until we determine that it is either true or false. We should protect the victim (the rape victim or the false accusation victim) and prosecute the offender (false accuser or rapist).

In the event that we cannot determine the truth, we should keep it under wraps to protect whichever one might be the victim.

[–]DRU-ZOD1980 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Meaning it's unproven. Evidence can point towards something that isn't true. After all we were completely wrong about what dinosaurs is look like and the innocence project has exonerated many men that the evidence at the time said was them. If it's not proven it is potentially false.

[–]bufedad 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

How is the fact that almost all rape accusations are never proven true nor false an irrelevant statistic?

[–]all-round-good-egg 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, that figure is arrived at using the same abuse of statistics that says only 4 - 8% are false allegations. The reality lies somewhere in the middle, and it's important to note that you are not saying 97% are false.

[–]bufedad 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but the number of rape accusations is much fewer than the number of actually committed rapes

Of reported rapes, false rape accusations are between 2% and 8%.

Of reported rapes, actual rapes are between 3% and 7%.

This is because the statistics for false rape accusations only include those accusations where there is concrete proof that it never happened (e.g. the accused was in another state at the time).

If we only considered those where a guilty conviction was reached (proven true), then we are left with 85% of rape accusations are neither true nor false.

[–]froggie-style-pepe[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (15子コメント)

You are right, but this is towards those 3% that get falsely accused. And who knows? The number could be as high as 70%. You can never know if the evidence was tampered with, or if the court relied on "damsel in distress". Old chivalrous code, yes (and you had to be knighted for it to apply), but they don't care.

[–]Liv47 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (14子コメント)

We know, based on statistics, that of all the rape accusations made in the US, that about 2% of them end with a criminal conviction. At least 1% end with a conviction that lacks jail time. And about 3% end with the revelation or conclusion that the account given by the accuser is false. The remaining 94% of rape cases either end without an accusation or without an arrest.

Interestingly enough, this statistic is also similar to many other crimes. Murder, for example, has a curiously low conviction rate (and we also know that people have gone to prison for murder when they haven't committed a crime either).

[–]froggie-style-pepe[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (13子コメント)

Actually it's way larger than that. Almost all rapists get convicted. Typically there is evidence, if the survivor hasn't: taken a shower, cleaned their clothes, threw away their clothes that they wore at the time of the event.

[–]Liv47 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (12子コメント)

Almost all rapists get convicted.

I've literally never read that anywhere, so you'll have to show me where you based that assertion from. Seeing as about half of rapes aren't even reported to police, how could even "almost" all rapists get convictions?

[–]froggie-style-pepe[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Correction: Almost all reported rapes

[–]Liv47 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (10子コメント)

So you're now asserting that almost all reported rapes lead to convictions. You're going to have to show your work, son, because you're quoting something I've never seen in my life.

[–]froggie-style-pepe[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well, son, when you get your head stuck in liberal ass-genda, you start seeing shit ;)

[–]Liv47 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not seeing you proving your assertion, just tossing shade at people who disagree with you.

[–]froggie-style-pepe[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

The closest number I found is 37% according to this study. Now ofcourse, we can never truly find out the real number, unless we go and visit every rape victim in the world.

[–]TheRavenousRabbit 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Or be gay. That is my solution to it but it hasn't stopped people from trying.

[–]froggie-style-pepe[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd just lie and say I'm gay.

[–]Rethgil 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Or rather than video our lives and lose our privacy 24/7 just maybe laws should be equal for all rather than rewritten to serve certain people because vagina.

Just a thought.

[–]froggie-style-pepe[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Laws are equal. It's the courts that enforce the laws that are not.

I came up with a political cartoon that perfectly fits this. Imagine the word evidence saying "I swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth so help me god" to a judge, and the judge saying "Pass" or "Guilty" in a court.

[–]rekabis 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

If I ever get widowed or end up in a position where I have responsibilities over others, I will most certainly use a body camera. False accusations are a ticking time bomb for male teachers, and it’s not unreasonable to expect the same issues in any position where you have responsibility over females regardless of their age. Even in a company as a middle manager, you have to understand that HR is there to protect the company, not you. If they get even the most flimsy-arsed accusation of misconduct against you, chances are you will become promoted to unemployment as quickly as HR can manage it without causing an even bigger legal hassle.

The time will come when you can obtain a button-sized camera that records in HD, saves to a SD card, but also uploads in real-time (both wifi & cell) to a storage server of your own choosing (Key point: under your own control, not anyone else’s!!). When that time comes, we might have a fighting chance.

But even now, there is a lot you can do to protect yourself without relying on outside services. Build a pfSense firewall router that can record everything that goes in our out of your home network, so you don’t have to rely on outside services such as Google (which can and do re-sell your behaviour to third parties). Get it to log everything. Encrypt and triple-store the log files (3-2-1 rule), and make it an automated process, too, so it’s not subject to human forgetfulness. You can even make that router give you a secure VPN to the wider world, so you are protected online, and provided you have a static IP you can even use it as a VPN provider for your mobile devices when they are on LTE.

I would go so far as to wire the home up with video monitoring. Use wired connections, as wireless is almost trivially easy to crack, even from the street. You don’t want strangers inside your home network probing what should normally be protected by your router’s firewall! In a one-party consent area, you can cover almost every part of your house where privacy is not assumed. This means pretty well everything except for the washrooms and bedrooms. In a two-party consent area, you just need warning messages on all doors, and you may have to turn off audio as well (this protects your arse, as video without audio does not violate two-party consent in many such areas).

Even in today’s world, there is a lot that can be done. You just need to be vigilant.

[–]froggie-style-pepe[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My law teacher was a genius. I never really got why he left his door open when tutoring, but now I do. He knows the capabilities and powers that women have over men. He knows he can get falsely accused, hence why he never closes the door during tutoring.

[–]MraBob -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Death sentence for false accusers regardless of age.

[–]froggie-style-pepe[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Life in prison. Death sentences are more humane now. Lethal injection? They drug you up, then inject you. Firing squad? First shot will always kill you.

[–]MraBob 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

All better than "getting the help and support she needs".

[–]froggie-style-pepe[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

She can't get much out of the guy unless she has access to his BA. Also, what I find interesting, is that rape survivors rarely get the support and help, even though psychologists actually say it's for the best. As such an event can be ingrained in the person, and can have lasting effects.