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I have decided it has been entirely too long since I wrote a giant-ass series. (Yes, people in the back, I can hear you groaning.) In short, I now think it is time for a giant-ass series about my premises and ideas on social justice and gender egalitarianism. Part One: The Kyriarchy!
The kyriarchy used to be called the “white supremacist capitalist patriarchy”, but that sounds kind of silly, and people remembered there were other oppressions and it would end up being “white supremacist colonialist ableist ageist lookist sex-negative heteronormative cissexist capitalist patriarchy,” and that is just too damn long. So kyriarchy it is.
Essentially, the kyriarchy is the set of all ways society can oppress people. For instance:
- Senior citizens face age discrimination in employment.
- People with physical disabilities have to endure a bunch of patronizing people being all “you’re so strong! And inspirational!”
- Black people in the US are more likely to be pulled over by police when driving than white people are.
- Fat people have their health problems ignored because doctors assume it must be because of their fat.
- Queer teens may be bullied.
- People with mental health issues are more likely to be victims of violence than people without mental health issues.
- People in developing countries may be enslaved to produce the tantalum in your smart phone, or the beans in your coffee.
Nearly every one of these oppressions can be broken down into several different kinds of suboppressions. For instance, racism includes colorism, the way that society tends to favor light-skinned people of color. The privilege of people in developed countries includes Americanocentrism, the way Americans tend to wander into every discussion (especially in the social justice world) and make it all about us. Transphobia includes binarism, the way that binary trans people are considered “realer” than those of us with weird-ass pronouns.
Sometimes the kyriarchy oppresses people of a certain group in really big ways, like it still being legal to fire people because they fall in love with people of the same gender or were assigned an incorrect gender at birth. Sometimes the kyriarchy oppresses people in really little ways, like Cosmo saying a woman’s sexual fantasies about another woman is a sign she should ask for more gentle, romantic sex from her boyfriend as opposed to being a sign she might want to try that most excellent sport of muff-diving. However, even the little things reinforce the whole crappy social structure.
One of the things people most want to do when they first discover the concept of kyriarchy is argue about who’s the oppressedest and therefore gets a shiny prize. This is stupid for a lot of reasons. First, it’s kind of hard to quantify. Is it better to be unable to shop in most stores because they won’t provide accomodations for your disability (ableism), or to have some asshole criticize you for using food stamps to buy your child a birthday cake (classism)? I don’t even know where you’d begin to quantify that. Second, it’s completely meaningless. Your bloody nose doesn’t hurt less just because I have a broken leg.
Third, a lot of issues are linked to each other. This whole idea that men are men, women are women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri are small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri causes not just sexism but a lot of homophobia and transphobia. Bodily autonomy, or the right for people to make their own decisions about their own bodies, is an issue that crosscuts race (the drug war), gender (reproductive rights, slut and virgin shaming), class (drug war again, policing poor people’s dietary habits), appearance (fatphobia), ability (criticizing people who stim), etc. It’s really stupid to compete who’s hurting the worse when we’re all fighting the same damn enemy.
Fourth, you know, people can be members of multiple marginalized groups at once. Liberating people of color and not anyone else doesn’t liberate people of color: it only liberates straight, upper-class, abled, cis, conventionally attractive, gender-conforming, developed-country-dwelling, etc. people of color. This is a very small percentage of people of color!
In fact, each person experiences their oppressions differently depending on which marginalized groups they’re a part of. (This is called intersectionality and is big with modern feminism in theory– less so in practice.) A self-harming or suicidal teenager will probably be told zie is “just looking for attention” or “an emo kid” or “just going through a phase.” A poor queer person not only can’t get married but might not be able to afford the forms to create even a facsimile of marriage.
—
Someone might notice that, when I talk about kyriarchy, the passive voice happens a lot. “People with disabilities are denied accommodations.” “Queer people are made to feel weird and outcast.” “People of color are sometimes asked to speak for their entire race.”
Sometimes it’s not passive voice. Sometimes I use “society” or “cultural narratives” or “the kyriarchy,” which are, if you think about it, basically passive voice too. I mean, someone has to be doing the accomodation-denying and the queer-making-feel-weird and so on. It’s not like it just happens. There is a person behind all this kyriarchy nonsense!
Indeed there is! And NSWATM can exclusively reveal the identity of the kyriarch.
There’s this one dude, okay, and he has a Hitler mustache and a really nice hat, and he lives in an orbital satellite and shoots death lasers at people, and one day he woke up and was like “I know! It’s a good idea to oppress everyone on the entire planet! Muahahahahahaha! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!”
Unfortunately, a depressing number of people think of the world this way.
Instead of saying it’s one dude with a death laser, however, they say it’s “white cis able-bodied straight men.” Or it’s “feminists.” Or it’s “Democrats.” Or it’s “Republicans.” Depressingly commonly, it’s “the Jews.” That group of people have decided to fuck over everyone on the planet purely for the lulz! Gasp at the enormity of their malice!
If you’re going to be arguing that, you might as well just argue in favor of the existence of Death Laser Guy. At least Death Laser Guy is cool.
“Evil” is an entirely meaningless term, psychologically. Inside a person’s head, evil looks like “making the hard decisions for the greater good,” or like “defending yourself and your way of life from attackers,” or like “not wanting to know about this bad stuff going on,” or like “fighting Group X, which by the way is evil and caused all these problems,” or like “being realistic,” or like “doing a little thing that won’t make that much worse anyway,” or like “following orders,” or like “not knowing that X could cause harm,” or like… well, a lot of things. But very few people’s actions are motivated by the desire to cause harm, and those people almost never manage to accumulate sufficient followers to cause damage.
In the real world, there is no Sauron.
“Hey, wait a minute, Ozy,” some random dude says. “You’re saying no one is evil. But you just postulated the existence of this really terrible social system, the kyriarchy. How could the kyriarchy exist if there aren’t any evil people propping it up?”
Well, there are people propping it up. Everyone is propping it up.
People are surprised when they hear about, say, circumcised women taking their daughters in for circumcision against the wishes of the father of the child. That should not be surprising! The women are part of the same culture and got the same messages about the relative worth of circumcised and uncircumcised girls, and then they pass along the same messages to their children and friends. In fact, if you take a minute to think, instead of falling into a Hollywoodized Evil Oppressor/Saintly Oppressed dynamic, the opposite would be even more bizarre: as if a societal message could only trickle down to half a population!
And don’t even get me started on people who think that being a member of one oppressed group keeps you from being shitty to members of other oppressed groups. Black people can be homophobic. Black people can be racist against Asians or Hispanics or Native Americans. Being oppressed does not give you some kind of magic Get Out of Being An Oppressor Free Card.
I hold up the kyriarchy. I buy a shirt from a corporation with abusive labor practices, or a phone components of which were mined by slave labor. I listen to misogynistic metal music. I call things lame. I say awful things without entirely meaning to about people with mental health issues other than mine. I fuck up other people’s pronouns. I think people are stupid when they can’t use apostrophes correctly. There is not a single day in which I don’t do a single thing that isn’t kyriarchal, and I have been a member of the Social Justice League since before I had motherfucking tits. What hope do well-meaning other people have?
Everyone is an agent of the kyriarchy, and it’s only when we begin to recognize that that we can start to change. It doesn’t mean you’re bad or wrong or evil; it means you grew up in a kyriarchy, and you naturally perpetrate the memes you were born with. The question is not whether you believe fucked-up things, but whether you work to overcome them.
—
“Hey, wait a minute, fuckass,” some of you might be thinking right now. “So we all are a part of the kyriarchy. But the kyriarchy as a social system doesn’t work well for anyone! Okay, maybe there’s an upper-class cis straight white gender-conforming abled conventionally attractive Protestant couple in Ohio somewhere for whom the whole system works really well, but under the kyriarchy about 99.99% of humanity is oppressed! Why the hell do we all participate in it?”
The Typical Mind Fallacy
It should not be a surprise to anyone that human beings are really, really bad at figuring out what those other people who are not like us are going on about. For instance, I remain continually puzzled that other people seem to legitimately prefer getting drunk on Friday night to gaming. I mean, there’s Arkham Horror! And Magic: the Gathering! And Illuminati! Why the hell would you willingly choose to go to parties instead? I mean, there are costumes sometimes, those are fun, and dancing, but some people don’t dance or wear costumes and they still prefer the whole getting drunk thing. I do not understand it.
My confusion over people’s lack of interest in Arkham Horror has pretty negligible effects on the world. Unfortunately, this stops some people from realizing that members of marginalized groups are even marginalized. My favorite example comes from when I was in high school. A friend of mine got a Lexus for his birthday. I said I was jealous of how rich he was. He said, “Oh, my family’s not rich. I got a used Lexus.”
It’s not like my friend was a bad person. It’s just that he was rich, and all his friends were rich, and the only times he really talked to poor people is when they asked him to move so they could vacuum under where he was sitting. Poor people were strictly theoretical for him.
…Which worked out really well when he decided that homeless shelters coddled homeless people, who ought to just all get jobs, dammit.
Ignorance is an extremely common cause of kyriarchal shit. No one means to make the meeting inaccessible to people in wheelchairs. They just had the meeting up two flights of stairs without ramps and, well, it never occurred to them that some people might have problems with that. Why would it? They’re not in wheelchairs, it’s never been an issue for them.
Tribalism
Human beings are social animals. We like creating groups. In fact, literally assigning people to random groups is enough to get them to (a) create opposing in-groups and (b) make them hate each other.
So I am a member of Group White. The subconscious parts of my brain want me to advance Group White at the expense of the various People of Color Groups, because they are “like me” and part of my group. (My brain also wants me to advance Group Upper-Middle-Class, Group Able-bodied, Group Mental Health Issues, Group Queer, Group Gender Egalitarian, Group Geek and Group Manboobz Regular.) I don’t necessarily intend to; it’s not like I woke up one morning and said “hey, I’m going to help out the white people today, for lo, my skin is white.” I just feel more comfortable around them. They’re “like me.” They’re “my kind of people.”
If I, say, preferentially hire Group Geek, that’s unlikely to be a social-justice issue, because someone else is preferentially hiring Group Jock over there and it evens out. However, Group White has historically been in charge of all the things, so if I preferentially hire members of Group White, who are like me, then suddenly members of Group Black and Group Asian and Group Hispanic will find themselves less likely to be hired. And that is a serious problem.
Power Corrupts
The old cliche is that power corrupts. The kyriarchy gives a large number of fallible human beings power over other human beings. One can imagine that this is not going to end well.
Which is to say: it ends in people arguing about why they ought to have the power, and how those other groups are just inherently less awesome than they are, and they don’t have that much power anyway, and you ought to give them some more power because they clearly know what to do with it.
Stereotyping
A heuristic is a quick shortcut to thinking. For instance, if you say “the aliens from the planet Googolplex are controlling my brain,” my heuristic suggests that that’s absurd so I shan’t examine it further. On the other hand, heuristics can go wrong– for instance, if I decide your statement that humans evolved from monkeys is absurd so I shan’t examine it further. Stereotypes are a subtype of heuristic– the assumption that people in Group X all have Trait Y.
Stereotypes are not bad. If you stereotype geeks as mostly Star Wars fans, or Dirty Hippie College students as mostly pot-smoking liberals, it’s just a cognitive shortcut that makes it easier to predict the behavior of a random geek or Dirty Hippie College student. Problems happen when your stereotype heuristic suggests, upon seeing a Muslim person, that said Muslim person is probably a terrorist.
Stereotypes can go wrong lots of ways. There’s the availability heuristic: because you can think of more Muslim terrorists than you can think of Muslim non-terrorists, you assume Muslims are mostly terrorists, even though this is not actually the case. There’s confirmation bias: once you think Muslims are terrorists, you look for more information that supports the idea that Muslims are terrorists; the Christian who blows up a building is an extremist, the Muslim who blows up a building is proof. There’s stereotypes that don’t carve reality at its joints: a stereotype about “black people” includes a recent immigrant to America from Haiti, an African American who is mostly white by ancestry, a Brazilian who doesn’t even identify as black, an urbanized Kenyan, a Somali pirate and a South African farmer; it is very difficult to figure out what all these groups have in common beyond some quantity of melanin. And so on and so forth; a full list of the ways human beings are irrational would fill up several books.
These inaccurate stereotypes can lead to a lot of really awful behavior. For instance, profiling all Muslims at airports would be a sensible countermeasure if Muslims were Always Chaotic Evil like orcs; since they aren’t, it’s Islamophobic. The overwhelming likelihood is that the nice Muslim family who moved in down the street are not al-Qaeda members, so you shouldn’t treat them like al-Qaeda members.
There’s also the way stereotypes influence the behavior of people actually in the group, but this post has gone on for long enough and that plays a huge enough role in gender (remember? What this blog is actually about?) that I think it is deserving of its own post.
(Digression: some people have complained the kyriarchy’s definition is too broad. How does “the set of all ways some groups sapient lifeforms are unjustly harmed specifically because of their membership in a particular group” sound as a definition? Lots of worthy causes are mostly unrelated to the kyriarchy, such as environmentalism, civil liberties, fighting corruption in government and ending Nickelback’s musical career.)
—
(Sorry for the giant break in this series… life happened!)
People are often seriously confused about social construction.
Socially constructed things are not less real than non-socially-constructed things. Money is a social construct: if everyone woke up one morning and decided that those little pieces of green paper were completely worthless, dollars would rapidly become only useful for ass-wiping purposes. However, if you decide that because money is a social construction you should be able to take as many items from stores as you like, the government (itself a social construction!) would probably send some nice people with guns after you.
Second, postmodernists and strawman versions of postmodernists, “reality is socially constructed” does not mean that trees only exist because everyone collectively agrees that trees exist. That is stupid. If everyone was adendronist, the trees would still exist happily photosynthesizing away. However, if a culture didn’t view “trees” as a meaningful concept, but classified “evergreens” and “non-evergreens” as separate categories, then for that culture trees do not exist, even though woody plants with secondary branches and a trunk do.
To understand how social construction works, imagine a man with some degree of attraction to men and women. In ancient Greece, he would have conceived of himself as an erastes, a lover of young boys who took the active, dominant and penetrating role. In Elizabethan England, he would have conceived of himself as a sodomite, a person who chose to commit the sin of male/male sex. Today, depending on his social group, he might think of himself as bisexual, pansexual, struggling with same-sex attraction, gay (by the “one drop” rule of homosexuality), homoflexible or simply queer.
Each of these different labels causes different behavior. A man who identifies as gay will probably not have sex with women, while a man who identifies as bisexual probably will. A man who identifies as pansexual or queer is more likely to be okay with dating people of a wide variety of gender presentations, performances or identities than a man who doesn’t. A man who sees himself as struggling with same-sex attraction might be celibate or seek out an ex-gay ministry. The erastes would have viewed teenage boys as the ultimate in desirability and would have almost certainly married a woman regardless of his actual preferences.
The attraction is the same; the behavior, mediated through social ideas, is not the same.
And now it’s time to mention, for the first time in this giantass series for a gender egalitarian blog, gender.
It is pretty clear that there are some aspects of gender that are biological, and some aspects of gender that are socially constructed. The “pink is for girls” thing, for instance, is socially constructed; however, men being taller than women is biological. However, a lot of other issues are far thornier.
Women and men have different brain structures. The hormonal arrangement of men and women is different; anecdotally, some trans people have reported personality changes once taking hormones. It seems implausible in the extreme that these would have absolutely no effect on men or women whatsoever.
On the other hand, we do know that some things about gender are cultural. For instance, some traits are different cross-culturally: in American culture, we have the Myth of Men Not Being Hot, while the Wodaabe have beauty contests for their men.
Besides, it would be simply bizarre to think the massive amount of gendered shit people go through for their entire lives has no effect on their personality. Gender role socialization begins at birth— parents will literally rate their children as littler, softer and finer-featured if they are female than if they are male, even when the children show no difference on objective scales.
As they grow older, children often become more insistent about their gender around preschool age (although whether that’s natural or a product of gender socialization who knows– and even many cis children may go through a period of insisting they are another gender and/or Batman) and may adopt more stereotypically gendered traits. Children of one gender may not realize that the toys or games of another gender is even an option. In addition, standard operant conditioning takes place: if you get parental and peer approval for playing football and bullied and shunned for playing with dolls, you will probably end up disliking dolls.
And that’s not even getting into complicated stuff like stereotype threat.
So by the time someone is ten years old, they’ve had years and years of gender shit in their heads.
At this point, I’m a gender differences agnostic, because I feel that is the most intellectually honest position. I figure that it’s probably not all biological, and it’s probably not all social, but which any particular trait is I will find out when the neuroscience comes in. Nevertheless, I still believe in reducing gender socialization as much as possible for one reason.
Regardless of the origin of the differences– men and women are far more alike than they are different.
Consider upper-body strength. It’s a bit hard to figure out how men could have been socialized into having more upper body strength, so that’s clearly primarily biological. However, there are female Olympic athletes and male couch potatoes, and we can clearly agree that a woman who can lift three times her body weight is a “real” woman, the same way that a man who only lifts the tortilla chip bag is still a “real” man. And if we decided that couch potato dude should have to carry the table when we move because men are stronger than women…
Well.
A lot of gender differences in our society are couch-carrying differences. Men might be more aggressive than women, but that doesn’t mean we should pressure men who are not aggressive into being more so. Women might have lower sex drives than men, but that doesn’t make slut shaming okay. These bell curves overlap one hell of a lot, and I disapprove of anything that makes life more miserable for a bunch of people for no reason.
Also, I’m kinda pissed because I never got action figures as a kid, and I would have totally loved Hulk fists with Real! Punching! ACTION!!!!
—
The kyriarchy is like the Matrix.
(This was totally my metaphor first, and then Sinfest stole it and made it into a comic, and now hopefully it has been long enough that everyone forgot. Except, uh, I just mentioned Sinfest. Oops.)
This is the source of one of the most common disagreements between social-justice-y people and non-social-justice-y people. Non-social-justice-y people notice social-justice-y people getting mad at all sorts of things they don’t get mad at, and assume that the social-justice-y people are just looking for stuff to get mad at, presumably because they enjoy getting angry a lot.
But from the social-justice-y person’s perspective, on the other hand, it’s the exact opposite. The world is full of things to get mad about. At this very moment, I’m typing on a computer with parts almost certainly made by slave labor, listening to a misogynistic punk band. My other tab is full of news about the deficit of good jobs even as the American economy recovers, the increase in world population to seven billion and riots at Occupy Oakland. In a bit I’m going to go call my mom, who doesn’t want to hear about my girlfriend because she thinks polyamory is morally wrong.
I… can’t get mad at all that.
I can’t.
I mean, I could say it’s about activist burnout and self-care and all that jazz, but honestly? It’s because I don’t want to. I don’t want to spend all my time thinking about injustice and making the world a better place; I’m not that good a utilitarian. I want to write my Nano novel and eat bagels with guacamole and snuggle with my girlfriend. I don’t even want to give up all offensive media. I like the Lonely Island, and even if their songs sometimes make me cringe, a life without ever getting to sing “the boat engine make NOISE motherfucker” ever again is a life I do not want.
So I cheat. I shut up when someone I’m gaming with says something horrifically racist. I don’t look up the human rights records of the companies that make the shit I buy. I claim to be vegan but still eat sushi and Auntie Anne’s cinnamon-sugar pretzels. Because I can’t fight everything that deserves to be fought as hard as it deserves to be fought.
I don’t think anyone can. Everyone is complicit in this dirty rotten system.
If you aren’t a hypocrite, your moral standards aren’t high enough.
But that’s okay. Because we merry band of hypocrites and whiners are winning.
If you look at it, at the wide span of history– since the Enlightenment, we have ended every century freer and more equal than we started out. It used to be that poor people couldn’t vote. It used to be that people of color couldn’t sit in the same train car as white people in the South. It used to be that the Roman Catholic Church Church was allowed to ban books by Descartes and Defoe, Galileo and Voltaire. It used to be that it was legal to rape your wife in most of the world. It used to be that disabled people were regularly exhibited in freakshows, and non-neurotypicals placed in lunatic asylums. It used to be that being queer was always a crime.
This isn’t saying that classism and racism and sexism and ableism and all the rest don’t exist anymore. God no. And it’s not saying that we can just sit back and allow the grand scheme of history to carry us forward into utopia. All of these victories were the responsibility of millions of men and women who sacrificed their prestige, their friendships, their free time, their jobs, their physical safety, even their lives. If a better world is going to happen, it is only going to happen because lots of people work their asses off for it.
But I think it’s good to look at the past and realize that victory is possible. Victory has happened. Is happening.
Not everyone can do everything. If you left me in charge of organizing a march, I would vomit from fear; if you told me to write about racism, the taste of feet would never manage to get itself out of my mouth. But I can blog about masculism (and sex-positivity) okay, and I flatter myself that I’ve done a little bit to make the lives of some men and the sex lives of some people better.
So… educate yourself about the oppressions you’re less familar with. Stop doing really awful privileged shit, as much as you can (I am talking to you, Pocahottie). Question your assumptions. Give money to a highly leveraged charity (GiveWell can help you decide which). Write letters to your congresspeople. Wave signs at marches. Organize marches. Volunteer– at a homeless shelter, a crisis hotline, a political campaign. Hell, run for office. Create media that shows voices that are rarely shown. Provide health care without shaming people for their sexualities, genders or body types. Find ways to make your job more inclusive, if you can. Point out to people if they say kyriarchal shit that they’re saying kyriarchal shit. Raise awesome children. Support and accept your friends.
And love yourself. Loving yourself is, I think, a radical act. The kyriarchy is doing its best to make sure that everyone hates themselves– or at least, everyone who isn’t that conventionally attractive, able-bodied, neurotypical, from-a-functional-family, rich, white, vanilla, monogamous, cis, straight, Protestant couple from Ohio. Therefore, by accepting yourself and working to be the best you you can be– not what the kyriarchy thinks you ought to be, but what would actually make you happiest– you are saying a giant “fuck off” to the Matrix.
And that’s way cooler than not being allowed to listen to the Lonely Island.
—
So this is basically just a roundup of common mistakes people make while out Social-Justice-ing, which I am listing out in the hopes that people will avoid doing that shit.
The Lipstick Argument. I call this the “lipstick argument” because the first time I ever saw it was in a radical feminist essay about lipstick. (Sadly, it was an Internet essay, and I’ve since lost the link.) The radical feminist in question explained in great detail that lipstick was self-objectification that led men to think of women as only important for their beauty and encouraged the sexualization of women’s bodies. For the sake of the sisterhood, the essay concluded, it was necessary to give up lipstick; if a woman wore it, she was clearly colluding with the patriarchy.
It left me wondering… but what about the women who like wearing lipstick?
It is shitty to make people do things they don’t want to do because of their identity. That is literally the whole point of social justice. It is equally shitty to make people wear lipstick if they don’t want to and not wear lipstick if they do.
Let me be clear. It’s okay to critique masculinity and femininity. There’s nothing wrong with “high heels cause damage to women’s feet” or “football causes dangerous concussions in young men”; there’s not even anything wrong with “high heels encourage the equation of femininity with weakness and sexualization” or “football culture links masculinity and violence.” There is a problem when you say “therefore no one should wear high heels or watch football,” because the goal of all these critiques is not a world free of football or high heels (how crappy would that be?). The goal is a world where people can play football or wear high heels as they please, without anyone giving them shit about it because of their gender identity.
Subversivism. That’s saying that genders which fuck the patriarchy are better than genders that don’t fuck the patriarchy: genderqueers are better than binary trans people, who are better than gender-non-conforming cis people, who are better than gender-conforming cis people. I hope I don’t have to explain why this sucks, right? This sucks.
Judean People’s Front.
When I was in Catholic high school, I got into quite a lot of arguments with my theology teachers. They absolutely hated me, because I was young and angry and fresh off a Richard Dawkins/Sam Harris/PZ Myers/Greta Christina kick, and thus prone to writing twenty-page papers about how God didn’t exist. However! My school also organized regular food drives for migrant farmworkers.
You could say, as a principled atheist, that I should refuse to be involved in any charity drives run by the Roman Catholic Church. But here’s the problem: if I took that point of view, it would have no appreciable difference on the views of my theology teachers, and the migrant farmworkers still wouldn’t get fed. I don’t know about you, but I care more about farmworkers having full bellies than I do about ideological purity.
In Internet Social Justice Land there’s this habit of balkanizing ourselves into these little groups that all agree with each other about everything, and then anyone who disagrees is stupid and oppressive and probably a Nazi. In the real world, people who agree with you about everything are rare and hard to locate, and people tend to be fairly attached to their ideas and don’t want to be argued out of them. Only wanting to do stuff with people who agree with you, a lot of times, means not doing anything at all.
Note: this post is about beliefs, not actions. If my school was requiring people to pray before giving them the food, I’d be quite right to oppose that. But as long as they’re only doing things I support, I should support them.
People Can Say Bad Things And Not Be THE WORST PEOPLE EVER. Humans have particular difficulty with this concept– it’s called the “halo effect” in psychology. In general, if you see someone who tells a rape joke, you’re going to assume they’re stupid and sexist and mean and probably smell funny; it’s just how brains work.
However, in the real world, someone can tell a rape joke because they honestly don’t know that it’s problematic, and yelling at him that he’s stupid and sexist and mean and probably smells funny will leave him still telling rape jokes and convinced you are a man-hating feminist. This is a non-optimal solution.
Now, there’s no moral duty to call out kyriarchal shit. If you can’t deal with it without screaming… you don’t have to. It doesn’t make you a bad person. But if you decide to call someone out, take a deep breath and call them out without calling them a sexist bastard.
The same “says bad things, not the worst person ever” principle also applies to social-justice-y writers. With the possible exception of bell hooks, there is not a single feminist writer who hasn’t ever said a fucked-up thing; some of the most fucked-up people are the ones who come up with the most important theory (Dworkin was hugely inspirational to Susie Bright, among other early sex-positive feminists). Take the bits that are useful, discard the bits that are not useful.
Call-outs. That whole “people can say bad things and not be THE WORST PEOPLE EVER?” thing? It applies to you too. In fact, I can 100% guarantee that as a member of the Social Justice League you will say something problematic about twelve times a week. I certainly do. (Hey, guys, my class privilege was totally showing in the World AIDS Day post. Turns out not everyone can afford retrovirals! Oops.)
The important thing is to learn to respond to callouts with grace. Your first reaction, at least if you’re anything like me, will be to explain in a fit of righteous rage that you are not wrong, in fact you are the best ally Group X has ever had, they are getting offended at nothing, and how were you supposed to know that anyway? This is not productive. Take a deep breath, thank the person for bringing it to your attention and stop doing the shitty thing. Or read up on it and, after carefully considering the other person’s point of view, decide that actually the person was mistaken. That’s okay too. The keyword here is polite.
Sinfest has changed their archive date format since this was written – the referenced comic is this: http://www.sinfest.net/view.php?date=2011-10-09
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Oh yeah, a comic that links any expression of masculinity with the actual devil. Awesome.
It’s sad how deeply Sinfest fell into the pit of humourless “all men are self-serving lechers” sentiment, especially contrasted by the Mary-Sue militant feminist clique.
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“Take a deep breath, thank the person for bringing it to your attention and stop doing the shitty thing. Or read up on it and, after carefully considering the other person’s point of view, decide that actually the person was mistaken.”
It’s rare that I see the latter option addressed! My biggest problem with “callout culture” is the idea of immediately kowtowing because someone on the internet gave you an order. I like the idea that you can decide to keep doing what you’re doing without being a terrible person.
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Also, what if this person is the second person who told you, and you already considered the point of view when the first person told you, and already concluded the first person was mistaken, and you feel the second person brought nothing new?
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For me personally, the “I’m sure enough”-cutoff doesn’t really happen after I examined my point of view once, but a bit later.
The second time around it might be useful to examine the different points of view once more, I think. Both callouts will probably not be exactly identical, so maybe there’s something one overlooked the first time.
If reasonable discussion is at all possible, a second opposing party might provide different arguments for their opinions than the first one did.
Also, I’m fickle. The exact same arguments might have a different effect on me, depending on conversation style (measured/heated) or time of day.
The 37th time around, though, I wouldn’t expect to learn anything new.
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I’m still confused by ‘Kyrarchy’. I can’t tell what kind of thing it’s supposed to refer to.
Sometimes, the term seems like a catch-all for “sources of oppression, whatever those turn out to be.” It’s similar to how we’d define “health risks.”
This can be handy. Sometimes it’s nice to say, “We should work on the Kyrarchy/Health Risks that are present on our community” without getting bogged down in specifics.
Unfortunately, a lot of claims (“bad health outcomes are caused by health risks!”) reduce to tautologies. They’re true by definition. And the label can’t actually tell us anything about what, specifically, we need to fix.
Other times, the term seems to be defined predicatively, like: “this set of specific things that we’re pretty certain lead to oppressive outcomes.” This is similar to how people use “toxic chemicals”.
The nice part about this definition is that it can give us some insight into solutions. “Reducing asbestos exposure will improve people’s health!” conveys information in a way that “Reducing health risk exposure will improve people’s health!” really doesn’t.
The trick here is we’ve got to do a bunch of legwork before adding stuff to our list of ‘toxic chemicals’ or say that a region is especially toxic. Otherwise, we run the risk of being wrong about what causes problems.
My issue is that neither approach seems to fully fit the the way that terms are used. So, I think I’m still unclear about what kind of assertions are being made.
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While I cannot peer into the minds of people using the terms, I can say that there is a big difference between “kyriarchy” and “health risks.” The former is singular and the latter is plural.
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And there are lots of different oppressions too. Just combine all your individual health risks into one grand construct off ill-health – let’s call it the aegrotiarchy – and there you have it.
***
Ill people of the world, unite! People of all conditions and syndromes, people of all illnesses, whether bacterial or viral, you must band together to fight for your common interest, to see that it is the aegrotiarchy that is the cause of all your problems, no matter what your problems may be! Smash the aegrotiarchy and all your problems will be solved! You have ebola? the aegrotiarchy! A broken leg? The aegrotiarchy! A slight sniffle? The aegrotiarchy! Do you see now why the aegrotiarchy must be smashed, so that everyone may live healthily forever more?
But remember that no matter what you do, you are complicit in the aegrotiarchy. If you cough or sneeze in the presence of others you are supporting the aegrotiarchy. If you don’t wash your hands before every meal then you are condoning a system of ill-health. If you dare to have one drink or one cupcake too many, then, by golly, you are responsible for all of the illness in the world and should feel ashamed of yourself.And they only way to be a decent person is to do exactly what we – the high priests of the fight against the aegrotiarchy – say and if you don’t you are healthphobic scum who wants children to die of cancer!
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*** I apologise unreservedly for the hideous mishmash of greek and latin in the word “aegrotiarchy” I just couldn’t find a suitable greek word which sounded right.
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That might be a fair way to phrase my question. “Is Kyarchy actually a coherent, singular thing?”
@Fazathra’s post does a great job of showing how we make a “set of all bad things” sound like it’s a coherent entity instead of a random grab-bag of stuff.
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Brief tangential rant: Who are these 101 things aimed at, anyway? This is not exactly a typical 101 thing in that it’s kind of just a bunch of stuff glommed together, but usually they seem to aim to be more systematic.
Thing is, it seems you always get pointed to various “101” things when you have any objection, but they never seem to answer any of my objections. Most of which are not exactly sophisticated; they’re largely just of the form, “you are conflating things / equivocating”.
I mean, the obvious cynical answer is “They’re not aimed at outsiders at all, they’re for the less core SJers to reaffirm their commitment and tell them what they’re supposed to believe”, and that might be the effect they have, but that’s not exactly a helpful answer. Even if that’s an accurate description of the effect they have, that’s not anybody’s intention. (So I guess really we have two different questions here: Who are they intended for, and who are they actually convincing/helpful to.)
I guess maybe they might be convincing to people who have literally never encountered any of this before? That doesn’t seem to be the context I’ve seen them get pulled out in, though it’s been quite a while.
They don’t seem like they’d be convincing to, y’know, the truly opposite side — the “Red Tribe”, the neoreactionaries, the redpillers, and such — who are starting from some very different assumptions. And they’re certainly not convincing to the “reasonable opposition” (Scott etc.). They’re also unlikely to be aimed at such people, since SJ-at-large seem constantly just group them in with the Red Tribe and such. I’d expect they might be aimed at the Red Tribe, because that is who SJ-at-large actually acknowledges as opposed to them — that’s who the questions-getting-answered seem like they’re coming from; the “ignorant questions” I see SJers talking about being tired of answering seem like Red Tribe questions, not “reasonable opposition” questions. So it seems like to some extent they are in fact aimed at such people. But I doubt many of them would convince them.
These 101 things totally fail to anticipate people’s counters to its arguments, and what’s the point then? They don’t seem to imagine that anyone might honestly disagree or leave. I mean… anticipating all counterarguments is not something you can do. But, like, look at Scott’s Non-Libertarian FAQ; look in particular at 2 through 2.1.2. That is what actually trying to anticipate counterarguments looks like.
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So, other people in other discussions sent you to read other “101 things”, which didn’t answer your actual objections? Well, that’s unfortunate. I’ve also noticed that intermediate-level information or arguments can be harder to find than either “101” or insider stuff, and not just on SJ issues. Perhaps they’re less rewarding to write up.
This post covers a lot of ground, so anticipating lots of counterarguments would turn in into a book.
It also looks a bit like an FAQ without the questions (maybe they were lost during the move?). I think the questions would be something like this:
1. What is this SJ stuff all about?
1.1. WTF is “kyriarchy”, and how is this concept useful?
1.2. So, who’s doing the oppressing? Who are the bad guys in this worldview?
1.3. But if kyriarchy is bad for most people, why is everyone perpetuating it?
2. Do you think gender is a “social construction”? What about biological differences between men and women?
3. If I let you persuade me, will I have to be angry or hate myself all the time?
4. Which elements of SJ rhetoric should I take with a grain of salt, and why?
On the other hand, this post reads more like a persuasive speech and less like a tedious lecture (which is a common failure mode of SJ FAQs, IME), and gives compassionate and usable advice, which is great.
(Scott’s non-FAQ posts also tend to be a bit rambling, and even go on seemingly random tangents for persuasive effect — personally, I’d prefer more explicit structure, but it’s Scott’s hobby, so his enjoyment is more important.)
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Yeah, I’m not complaining about this post; it just seemed an opportune time to post this comment. 🙂
I’m not sure I’d call my objections “intermediate”; I’d call them foundational. Like, anyone reading a 101 carefully will notice there’s a problem. And where do you go then? This was supposed to be the most basic part!
It’s possible there’s something of a mismatch of expectations here — I think 101 means “first principles”, and they think 101 means “overview”, with foundations being “intermediate” and later. But then where do you go when you have a problem with the foundations, and why do people keep pointing others to the 101 in that case?![:-/](https://megalodon.jp/get_contents/324084721)
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Oh. I think “X 101” means “introduction to X” (like the US university course number?). Of course, you can introduce the same subject in different ways. I’ve heard they tried teaching set theory in first grade in the US, but it didn’t work out very well 😛
I think the average internet SJ advocate isn’t really an expert on the first principles of social justice, in the same way that the average primary school teacher is not an expert on the foundations of mathematics.
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Well, if we want to take the university analogy seriously, then 101 is probably an introduction for people who don’t really care about the subject. 😛
If we want to stretch things further, that’s part of what’s so annoying about these people, is that they take an “educational” frame rather than an argumentative one. I go to a place that appears to be hosting serious discussions, I expect serious arguments, you know? I expect people to understand what does and does not constitute a counterargument. To not just repeat the same things over and over again, to admit ignorance or confusion when appropriate, and so forth, and when they have nothing more to add, to bow out! You know? Not to act like an elementary school teachr who won’t be challenged in their classroom.
Hell, you know what really bugs me? Frequently I can make these people’s arguments better than they can. They make these arguments with giant gaps in them, but I can see how to fill them in. (At which point I tend to just get irrationally contrary and have a reaction of “It’s not my job to make your argument for you” — but on the other hand, this probably is at least a somewhat decent indicator that I probably shouldn’t waste my time with this person.) That, like, shouldn’t be possible; they should know their own subject better than me, surely?
To hell with advocacy, you need argument if you really want to get somewhere. Where the hell are, like, the Social Justice Jesuits? I’d really like to see that. (…is that a good analogy? I don’t actually know much about the Jesuits.)
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I will note Scott’s Anti-libertarian FAQ only counters certain strains of libertarianism. Many people who are fairly libertarian (like me or Scott!) can seemingly shrug off Scott’s Anit-libertarian FAQ as it does not attack any of the core beliefs we actually hold. (note such people tend to be left-libertarian).
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Scott puts it more strongly than I would (perhaps because the Non-Libertarian FAQ is a fairly old piece of writing and my politics are closer to Present Scott’s as far as I can tell), but the impression I get is that the Non-Libertarian FAQ is aimed mainly at strong rights-based libertarianism: the sort that takes property rights and the non-aggression principle as deontological imperatives and works from there. That’s a totalizing ideology and it has all the usual problems (and advantages, granted) of totalizing ideologies.
But I suspect most people with libertarian leanings in this crowd (if I’m not overgeneralizing from my own weaksauce pseudo-quasi-demi-small-L-libertarianism) have a more consequential, precautionary take on it: an awareness that top-down intervention often carries hidden costs, to say nothing of not-so-hidden costs involving men with guns, and that we may want to avoid that if we’re not confident of doing more good than harm. The Non-Libertarian FAQ doesn’t have much to say about that idea.
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Is Scott really a libertarian? I always found that self-identification strange for him, since his biggest public-policy proposal (UBI) is extremely socialistic– just in the Scandinavian state-as-cool-uncle-who-gives-you-stuff sense rather than the paternalistic sense.
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Lots of quasi-libertarian/libertarians really like Universal basic income. Libertarians almost all prefer UBI type arrangements to normal welfare. As UBI is maximal autonomy respecting.
(Though I think most people realize that UBI is not affordable unless you can make pretty dramatic cuts to overall government spending. Cutting wellfare does not pay for it. Though I personally would be ok with dramatic cuts to the military for example).
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Ahhh, okay. I’m probably just operating under an overly narrow definition of “libertarian,” then, or a definition focusing on the wrong set of criteria. (I’m a socialist who’s very sympathetic to anarchism, so I also view autonomy-preservation as a valid and important goal. It’s just one that I’m used to associating with my own ideological label.)
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“Those 101-things” seem to differ a great bit, so I won’t really address the entire 101-ness. Though I’d like to add how I used posts like this one (a 101-subgroup, if you will).
I really see things like this as a consciousness-raiser for the aspiring newbie. It gives you certain views of a movement, a few arguments and might just spark a few thoughts to begin with. Or at least a few 101s did that for me.
If one is so inclined as to carry that information ‘into battle’, it’s a good starting point, although the opposing side will probably have though longer and harder about the issues and will probably ‘win’. At best this leads oneself to examine more points of view, dig through some arguments and keep what works and toss out what doesn’t.
So basically, for me it’s a welcome-package. Take it, use it, see how it works, what works well, what doesn’t etc. (Or at least that’s how I use 101s)
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“You could say, as a principled atheist, that I should refuse to be involved in any charity drives run by the Roman Catholic Church. But here’s the problem: if I took that point of view, it would have no appreciable difference on the views of my theology teachers, and the migrant farmworkers still wouldn’t get fed.”
Right, because nobody except the Catholic Church is capable of feeding migrant farmworkers.
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I think the point was that one wouldn’t want to invest double the time and gasoline (bc money that could go to charity, also air pollution) to aid another charity drive when there’s one right in front of you, just to keep ideologically pure.
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This seems like a more benign version of Social Justice than I see– the real one seems to be based on the premise that the world would be a better place if I didn’t exist (white people make things worse), but since that can’t be arranged, the best I can do is to suck up all the emotional abuse my betters feel like dumping on me and do unlimited work for their interests.
Social Justice includes an elaborate set of justifications for not knowing the emotional damage it causes.
I don’t think moral principles which require as much hypocrisy as you recommend are actually good principles, and in fact, a lot of people are either repulsed by Social Justice early (though it’s amusing to see them get influenced by its ideas, apparently without knowing it). or bail out late, sometimes with something that looks rather like PTSD.
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“I don’t think moral principles which require as much hypocrisy as you recommend are actually good principles”
Really? Just about every moral system I’ve come across has had to contain some version of “Do not make perfect the enemy of the good” in order to be practicable.
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The thing is, if the piece had been framed as something like “Social Justice: The Good Parts Version”, I’d have taken it better. If I didn’t think Social Justice had some solid claims about prejudice, I wouldn’t be so horrified by it.
When I first ran across “kyriarchy” I hoped it meant “rule by the people who happen to be in charge” and came with a general analysis of bad behavior by people in charge which could be extended to Social Justice, but it doesn’t seem to be like that.
*Nobody’s* intentions are magic.
As far as I can tell, Social Justice doesn’t have tools for limiting how much rage should be dumped, and this has consequences.
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Reading Ozy on social justice is like reading Paul Tillich or Chaim Potok on religion: it makes the thing sound downright reasonable. But then you try actually attending a service, and suddenly the failure modes are obvious, grotesque, and near-ubiquitous.
Western liberal-democratic capitalism a.k.a. “the kyriarchy” needs its scolds, but I wish it had a better class of them, present company excepted.
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I have the eactly same experience as you, stillnotking.
It reminds me when I was reading an article by one Polish feminist about what are gender studies REALLy and it was very reasonable, leaving you scratching your head why actually anyone sane would oppose that and call it ideology and not a science. And then, just few sentences later, she started to say things she has just wrote gender studies are not about.
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That sounds like something I’d like to read. Do you remember where to find that article by chance?
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godzilarissa, “gazeta wyborcza”, Polish left-wing newspaper, something like NYT in USA. Can’t remember more details. It was during the whole debate started by Catholic Church about how “gender ideology” is destroying traditional Polish values and when feminists replayed that there is no such thing as “gender ideology” and there is only science called “gender studies”
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The nice thing about internet-based groups like Social Justice is you can just ignore the unreasonable people and only read the reasonable ones, and once enough people do that the problem is automatically corrected.
It’s like pointing out that historically, most atheists were Maoists or Stalinists. True, but not an argument for not listening to Richard Dawkins.
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Unfortunately, while one *could* do that, the marketplace of ideas seems to function more on the toxoplasma-of-rage principle. Those of us who choose to filter for reasonableness rather than tribal reinforcement are clearly a tiny minority.
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“The nice thing about internet-based groups like Social Justice is you can just ignore the unreasonable people and only read the reasonable ones, and once enough people do that the problem is automatically corrected.”
The trouble is that the SJWs are emphatically not self-correcting. In fact, as they have gained more power, numbers, and influence they only seem to have become crazier and more dogmatic. The memetic structure and status allocation system of SJWism appears to reward the creation and rise to ascendance of ever more extreme versions of their doctrine and similarly inhibit any move towards moderation. Rather than Ozy’s writings convincing extreme SJWs to be reasonable, or people to ignore the extremists in favour of the moderates, it only leads otherwise unaffiliated people to begin to agree and hence tie some of their perception of their moral virtue to agreement with SJW positions which, of course, then leaves them vulnerable to the SJWs primary weapon of massively shaming people not wholly on board with the party line. At this point you can either renounce their morality entire and therefore its hold on you (which I think is bad as people like Ozy make good points) or else be bullied into agreeing with every point of doctrine (and keeping up as it constantly morphs into ever more extreme versions of itself.)
I think I’ve lost track of what I was trying to say here, but basically I think it is extremely difficult to read and agree with the reasonable ones while being impervious to the moral pressure and shaming of the extremists, especially if you already have a broadly leftist moral outlook.
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I do not consider myself moderate and I resent the idea that the only reason one could be concerned about treating well is that one is not an “extremist”. Many of my social-justice-related viewpoints (morphological freedom, gender abolitionism) are fairly extreme, even for generally social-justice-aligned people. As Barry Goldwater said, extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. 🙂
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@ozymandias: I suspect some of this is a matter of viewpoint: To someone who doesn’t believe in X, the phrase “a moderate/extreme Xer” generally means in practice “an Xer whose views are less/more [saliently] different from mine than is typical for Xers.”
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I still feel like gender abolitionism is quite different from most people.
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True, but that’s where the implicit “salient” bit comes in. Gender abolitionism may be more radical and extreme than call-out culture in some abstract sense, but for the average cis (by default or otherwise) person who doesn’t identify with (or, especially, who actively identifies against) “Social Justice,” whether someone supports call-out culture is a lot more relevant than whether they’re a gender abolitionist, at least for the foreseeable future.
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Extreme is a relative term, no?
I am… older than most here, I suspect. My introduction to academic feminism came at a solidly middle-sized state university in the pre-internet days where our forums were the letters pages of Of Our Backs magazine. In our circle (which staffed the Womyn Student Association) it was completely established beyond all debate that lesbianism was the only acceptable expression of sexuality. The areas which were still open for debate were things such as “are penetrative sex toys supportive of the patriarchy” and “should male fetuses be aborted?” (There was still a mystical aspect to our feminism which glorified things like motherhood). While Valerie Solanas was considered politically incorrect, she wasn’t considered factually incorrect.
So yes, while we wouldn’t have agreed with Ozy re: gender abolition, I think we’d have considered them naive rather than extreme. Especially if they liked penetrative sex toys.
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I’d like to second Ozy’s comment about extremism. Extreme positions are often correct! And when they are not, they are at least interesting and worth considering or at least discussing! I have no problem with extreme object-level positions!
What I have a problem with is people who insist on screwing up the meta-level and the norms of discourse and so lose their ability to self-correct. That’s the problem with awful-scary-SJ, not its object level positions. Which may be right or may be wrong, but as long as you can discuss them sensibly, are not a problem.
People often conflate these two, possibly because they are unfortunately correlated in actual humans. But, like, it doesn’t have to be that way — like if for instance you can somehow filter out the latter.
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Is this an appropriate time to call it the motte-and-bailey fallacy?
To clarify, this post is the motte and feminazis &c. are the bailey.
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This is exactly when you shouldn’t call motte-and-bailey. Motte-and-bailey means that one person is strategically equivocating between two positions, but Ozy vocally opposes the really awful aspects of SJ.
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Yes, this is precisely why I find it annoying. I would personally rather be argued with based on my beliefs and not based on what some other feminist over there believes (or, worse, what your strawman of some other feminist over there believes). The existence of asshole feminists does not actually make my empirical claims untrue or my advice unreasonable. The argument “this is a motte and bailey!” shifts the conversation from being about whether sexism exists and how to fight it to being about discussion norms, and while discussion norms are interesting this is not actually a disproof of my original argument (no matter how often it is wielded as such).
(Compare: “sure, the motte is that we shouldn’t negotiate with acausal terrorists, but the bailey is donate all your money to MIRI or you’ll be tortured for eternity.”)
Also, please do not Godwin in my comment section.
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Was the case of different people in the same movement thinking different things as discussed in the comments of the ssc thread (http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/03/all-in-all-another-brick-in-the-motte/#comment-156523) decided to not count as motte & bailey.
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No, this isn’t motte-and-bailey. I don’t think Ozy themself is equivocating, nor do I think Ozy’s ideas represent the insidious tip of an iceberg. I do think that the common ideas of the social-justice movement are highly prone to being interpreted in callow, self-serving ways by people who don’t have Ozy’s intelligence and conscientiousness.
A large part of this very post was dedicated to forestalling such abuses. The problem is, it didn’t work, and it never will work, because the natural incentives associated with these ideas are simply too perverse. One cannot set up a status hierarchy based on victimhood and have it not become a race to the bottom. At least the abuses of capitalism/meritocracy/kyriarchy are often productive, on net! But that’s another discussion.
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stillnotking: to be fair, some leftists, including me, believe that “productive” abuses are inherently worse, because of the incentives they set and because liberal tactics cannot counter them.
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Liberal tactics have done an outstanding job of countering them. Liberalism has taken us from Dickens to the minimum wage, child-labor laws, workplace safety laws…
I wouldn’t give the Wobblies or Karl Marx more than a thimbleful of credit for all that.
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Are you joking? What about all the socialist union organizers who fought for the minimum wage, child-labor laws and workplace safety laws?
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Socialists may have fought for them, but liberals got them done. Unless you’d like to claim FDR and Frances Perkins as socialists, in which case I think Fox News is hiring. 🙂
The labor movement in America was successful almost precisely to the extent that it repudiated Marxism.
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Clearly the political acceptability of the eight-hour work day is totally unrelated to the fifty years of mostly socialists campaigning for the eight-hour work day. If only FDR had existed in 1866, they would have saved so much effort.
Also: Frances Perkins was briefly a member of the Socialist Party and usually sympathetic to them.
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One suspects she had become less sympathetic by the time the Socialist Party was actively opposing the FLSA.
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@stillnotking: there are a lot of countries outside the US where those policies were implemented by socialists or socialist-aligned political parties. Or, alternatively, to limit the possibility of socialist parties gaining too much popularity.
(also, everyone should go read some Zola in addition to Dickens)
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I think the economist Arnold Kling’s writing on “Folk Beliefs” is relevant here (http://www.ideasinactiontv.com/tcs_daily/2006/01/folk-beliefs-have-consequences.html). Kling argues that there is the academic version of the belief, and there is also the dumbed-down, distorted “folk belief” that many people believe in, even if they are ignorant of the scholarly academic version.
I think Ozy posts are the “academic” version of Social Justice, while the Social Justice Warriors’ vicious witch hunts are the “folk” version. Just like how Marx or Bakhunin would not condone the worst excesses of “folk” Communism and Anarchism, academic social justice does not condone the nastiness of “Folk Social Justice.”
I’m not sure how much responsibility people with academic beliefs have to prevent the actions inspired by the “folk versions.” But the fact that Ozy has devoted a big chunk of this post to arguing against the folk version indicates that they are aware of the problem and take it seriously.
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After reading this entry I think that the proper definition of kyriarchy is “the ultimate cause of things I don’t like in this world”, and the destruction of kyriarchy is simply impossible, since there will always be bad things caused by society. Stereotyping is a natural tendency of brain to deal with uncertainty of information. Therefore, there will be always stereotypes about someone. And those stereotypes will always cause some harm. Moreover, I think it could be argued that some self-stereotypes are either not dangerous at all, or even contribute positively to people happiness.
If I am male, and my stereotype of masculinity involves being a good father, leaving up to responsibilities, working hard and so on, I don’t understand why this stereotype must be destroyed.
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So, what’s your stereotype of femininity? Being a bad parent, unreliable, lazy and so on?
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This assumes that masculinity and femininity must exist as poles of a dichotomy. That doesn’t actually seem like a position feminists should want to endorse. (With the exception of the gender-isn’t-real types who don’t want the concept of gender to exist at all)
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If you define masculinity as “is reliable and works hard” and femininity as “isn’t reliable and doesn’t work hard”, that is obviously bad. If you define “masculinity” as “is reliable and works hard” and “femininity” as “is reliable and works hard”, then they are literally identical concepts and there is no reason to have two different words. If you define them as separate sets of virtues– maybe masculinity is reliability and working hard, and femininity is kindness and empathy– then you’re limiting people unnecessarily. Surely people should strive to be reliable, work hard, be kind *and* have empathy, regardless of gender.
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The symmetry holds only if men and women are identical by nature. If we aren’t, then there would be greater value in emphasizing particular virtues by gender than in treating everyone the same.
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Ozymandias- I get what you’re saying here. But your argument goes a whole lot further than may seem apparent at first, and I don’t think it’s psychologically practical.
Your argument seems to logically extend to other forms of identity besides gender. Any form of identity that people associate with virtue, even in an aspirational sense, would seem to fall under this critique. Does someone take pride in being Catholic because they believe Catholics are [insert virtue associated with Catholicism here]? Presumably that implies a contrast to non-Catholics, who do not exhibit the virtue, or exhibit it to a lesser extent. You get the idea.
If this is a bad thing to do, and needs to stop, this implies that all forms of identity based pride need to go. And since identity based pride is the reason people gravitate towards and build their lives around positive identities in the first place, the impact acceptance of your position would have on the world is astronomical.
I’m skeptical that this is a reasonable thing to pursue, in both practical and moral terms.
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Yes, I agree, if you say “Catholics are hardworking and reliable!” then you are implying that non-Catholics are not hardworking and reliable and I may take offense. That said, I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong to believe that your group is better if you have evidence for this claim (although it might be unwise to bring this up when you aren’t looking for an argument). Surely some groups are, in fact, better at encouraging virtue than other groups?
Since when is identity-based pride the sole reason people gravitate towards positive identities, instead of community, enjoyable activities like conversation or ritual or exercise, etc.?
Even if it was, people can still love their group not because it is better but because it is theirs. It’s like patriotism: I don’t love Florida because it’s better than other places (it’s not) but because it’s the one I grew up in. My affection for hurricanes is no different from my New Yorker friends’ affection for subways and does not require any objective superiority of subways or hurricanes. Similarly, I don’t love fandom because it’s better than other communities (this is… definitely not true) but because it’s mine. I feel about slash goggles the same way baseball fans do about analyzing large amounts of statistics.
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@ stillnotking
And what should we do with all the people who don’t fit the stereotypes? Should a man whose strongest virtue is kindness aspire to become a woman?
@ Patrick
I think pride in non-chosen identities (ethnicity, race, culture, even sex and gender for most people) should be along the lines of “this is who I am, and I’m not ashamed of it”, and not “the virtues X, Y and Z belong to my in-group”. The temptation for motivated reasoning is too strong, and out-group members can do nothing to escape the inevitable negative stereotyping.
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Emphasizing “men should be responsible and hard-working” is not the same as saying “men should not be kind”. Just about everyone would agree that kindness is a virtue in men.
A man who is kind, but irresponsible and lazy, probably will be evaluated as lacking in masculinity, which seems more like a feature than a bug. How he deals with that is up to him. “Cultivate diligence” is presumably a little simpler than “become a woman”.
There seems to be some doublethink in SJ circles on this point: on the one hand, cultural messages are all-powerful, persuade women they can’t be CEOs, etc. On the other hand, cultural messages aren’t powerful enough to persuade lazy men to work harder. Can’t have it both ways.
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@ stillnotking
Earlier, you said:
What value is that, and why doesn’t the same reasoning apply to non-identical men?
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If men and women have morally relevant differences — and a glance at the prison population sure indicates we do — then it makes sense for us to receive different cultural messages about gender ideals. (By the way, this is true whether the differences are “innate” or not.) For instance, it might be important to emphasize that being a grown-up man means channeling one’s competitive impulses into a socially acceptable career. Women probably don’t need to hear that as much as men do.
I’m not sure what you mean by “non-identical” men. If there is an ideal of masculinity, then some men will be better equipped to meet it than others; again, that sounds more like a feature than a bug. The same would be true no matter what the ideal — kindness, ability to solve differential equations, skill at Foosball…
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Ozymandias- the analogy to sports fandom is an excellent one, because it shows two important issues that I think you’re overlooking in the context of gender.
First, if ever there was a community that was organized around shared activities rather than group-virtue, it would be football fans. And yet group-virtue creeps in.
Second, you acknowledge that you can have pride in a group simply because it’s your group, without chauvinism. Sort of a “the browns are the best team, but I acknowledge on some level that if I grew up in Cincinnati I’d probably think that about the Bengals” kind of thing. Why is it assumed that the valuing masculinity or femininity us different?
Nita gets reasonably close to my view in her response to me. I think group I.D. is inevitably going to involve virtue association. I don’t think that’s wholly separable from chauvinism. I think that a healthy person engaged in that has to recognize on some level that they are engaged in a bit of suspension of disbelief though, in order to minimize chauvinism. But I think that bleed through is inevitable, and messaging surrounding suspension of disbeliefs is inherently vague, so some elbows are going to get bumped. Sometimes a lot.
I guess this is one of those places where I feel that my view on social organization, in which good people getting hurt by other good people (and some people being hurt more than others) is an inevitability and the proper goal us to make that manageable (both by lessening it and by target hardening) rather than eliminate it, isn’t very compatible with feminism as I typically see it. See also discourse surrounding micro aggression, objectification, victim blaming, etc.
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osberend- you liked my post. Do you still like it as commentary on your conversation with Veronica D re the word “creepy?”
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Not really; “X is both useful and morally unobjectionable, but tends to bleed over into Y, which is bad” strikes me as very different from “X is fundamentally wrong, but its usefulness in some circumstances outweighs its wrongness, and this should be accepted even though it also tacitly legitimizes people who use X in situations where it is worse and/or lacking in justifying usefulness.”
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saying “males should be reliable and working hard” does not mean “females should NOT work hard”. It’s just means that if you want to fit the social role of the male you must fulfill those criteria. Females should also work hard and be reliable; and “working hard” in my opinion is not as important part of “female stereotype” as of males. I mean, if I would decide to work only part-time, that would mean I failed my own male stereotype. If my wife decided to work only part-time, I wouldn’t care and probably SOCIETY wouldn’t care (though at least in Poland there seems to be a consensus on condemning women who don’t work at all).
And I don’t really care what are the stereotypes of feminity, since I am not female. If the stereotypes of feminity are or would be “reliable and hard working” that’s fine, but I don’t care.
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Wait, what? You just said you’re married to a woman. Indirectly, these stereotypes affect your life as well.
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@Nita well yes. However there are “Stereotypes” and “stereotypes” – one say what society expects from different social roles, and one are summary of what you can expect from someone. When I think abotu what society expects from me, I don’t really care what it expects from the others (well, to some extent; i would care if those expectations would be unfair). When I think what to expects from strangers, stereotypes came as handy when I am dealing with unknown person about which I have no information about. As you may guess, I married my wife not because she fit some stereotype, but because I loved her; I didn’t care what are feminine stereotypes about her, as I married her, not the stereotypes, and – what’s more – my expectations about a partner were nto the same as stereotypes abotu what is ideal female.
Does that help?
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@ szopeno
That helps a bit, but not completely. By the time you met her, her character and behaviour was already influenced by the stereotypes. And even now, the decisions she makes are affected by them.
For example, some cultures believe that women should be “chaste” or “pure”. Sometimes young women are so strongly influenced by this idea that they are unable to have a healthy sex life even after marriage — they feel ashamed of expressing desire or actively participating in sex, and they feel terribly guilty after it.
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You could probably say the same about capitalism etc.
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One more thing: the fact that some thing changes between “cultures” (if those cultures consist from human population separated from other populations for a relatively long time), does not mean that this thing is not mediated biologically, unless you think there are no biologically-mediated differences between human populations.
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One of my major concerns in regards to “calling out” stuff that is “problematic” is that I have trouble telling the difference between arguing against a “callout” because it is hurtful, but true, or arguing against a callout because it is false.
I frequently encounter SJ people online who enjoy meticulously analyzing things people say, or works of fiction, in order to find “problematic” elements. I frequently encounter people who do similarly meticulous analyses to find that the “problematic” elements aren’t really there after all, and are not a consistent or valid reading of the original text.
Now, obviously the anti-problematic people are probably big fans of the people or fiction under discussion. So it’s quite possible they are unfairly biased. But the SJ people are probably biased in the other direction, finding “problematic” stuff is a great way to get social approval in SJ circles, plus if you spend a lot of time reading about how things are “problematic” you have a lot of confirmation bias.
I wish I had some sort of general way to tell if someone is arguing that something isn’t problematic because they believe it isn’t, or because they are biased in its favor, or vice versa.
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It’s worth noting that the two conditions you mention– believing in things and being biased towards them– often go together. Cognitive biases are as insidious as they are precisely because we don’t know when they’re operating. So, you should probably sort things into “believes this because of a visceral emotional reaction” and “believes this because they’ve thought through the issue carefully, weighing and considering alternative options.”
Perhaps the best test you can offer is to offer a logical argument against part of the person’s position. If the person notes it and then modifies their position, or refutes you with a good, well-thought-out argument, they’ve probably actually thought through their position. If they just bluster and yell at you, it’s probably just a visceral reaction.
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Imagine someone who just hates Jews. If you ask him why he hates Jews, he says “I enjoy seeing Jews suffer”. If you ask him to further elaborate, he might give more details of how he wants Jews to suffer, but you discover that making Jews suffer is a terminal value for him. He might also have negative beliefs about Jews, but when you question him it becomes obvious that those negative beliefs arise from his hatred of Jews rather than the other way around.
At what point can you say “that counts as genuinely being evil”? Sure, you can try to phrase it as “he thinks he;s justified in his own mind”. In a sense he does think he’s justified–he puts value on his joy and he feels joy at seeing Jews in pain. Doing things that provide value to you is justification, after all. But I’d just say “he’s evil”.
To put it another way, I think “nobody’s evil because they all think they are justified” is a kind of typical mind fallacy. You would never have “make Jews suffer” as a terminal value, so you assume that nobody else can either.
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You have failed to present any evidence that people who have Jewish suffering as a terminal value exist. The fact that there could theoretically exist somewhere in mindspace someone who terminally values Jewish suffering doesn’t mean they actually exist and I am likely to encounter them, any more than the theoretical possibility of paperclippers means that paperclippers actually exist. In my experience reading actually existing anti-Semites (including the “Hitler had the right idea” variety), they usually believe that, well, Jews terminally value Gentile suffering and therefore doing evil things to them is self-defense.
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I’d say that for many actual Jew-haters, they just hate Jews and anything about how Jews do evil things to them are derived from the hatred, not vice versa. Hatred is like that, even if typical mind fallacy makes it hard to imagine such haters.
Anyway, it’s all a matter of definition. If a robber shoots you and takes your money because he thinks the money is his, that’s justification. What if he shoots you and takes your money because he just thinks that the strong deserve whatever money they can take from the weak? Does that count as justification because he has a moral theory (he has a gun and so is stronger) that explains that the money is rightfully his? Would it then not count as justification (thus making the robber evil) if the robber didn’t have that moral theory, or irrationally stopped applying moral theories in the midst of robberies? Would the robber be “believing he’s justified” if he thinks that his need for money overrides your ownership, but “evil” if he doesn’t recognize ownership by anyone other than himself and his friends in the first place? Or does the latter still count as justification because getting money is a goal and he is working towards his goal? If he also doesn’t recognize that you have a right to life, does that push it into the “evil” category because he doesn’t think of the robbery as violating any rights, so he is no longer justifying the violation of rights? (And how exactly do you distingiush between believing he is justified in doing X, and merely having a goal that requires doing X?)
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Personally I don’t find it very useful to hold anyone but myself to moral standards. I try to avoid classifying anyone as good or evil, though actually doing that is… difficult.
But yes, people with alien terminal values definitely exist. Terminally valuing the death/suffering of Jews for the hell of it is a bad example because its hard to find an actual holder. Here are some easier ones to observe:
People who terminally value revenge. If the world suddenly became a perfect utopia where no one could possibly hurt anyone again, not just many but most people would still want to hurt people who did bad things before the eschaton was immanentized.
People who terminally value sexual “chastity”, heteronormativity, mandatory pregnancy, etc. See: Catholic telos stuff. Alternatively this can be interpreted as terminally valuing doing whatever God wants in which case…
People who terminally value doing whatever God wants.
People who terminally value involuntary death and suffering, labor, etc.(sometimes phrased as “building “character””, still alien values)
The morality described in Richard Swinburne’s essay on the problem of evil that’s name I don’t remember.
etc.
So saying evil looks like doing good on the inside has the problem that “good” means radically different things to different people. Evil, if I have to use such a concept, is difference from the speaker in utility function.
(I think Ozy is aware of this though, their post on moral philosophy said that morality is essentially a preference (this is my position also), which leads to that.)
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Yes? But I am human, nothing human is alien to me, I can understand the impulses for revenge and obedience to God and building character and teleology, and if I cannot it is a failure on my part and not a sign that my opponents are incomprehensible evil monsters.
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@ozymandias: That doesn’t rule out them being comprehensible evil monsters.
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I’m not sure those are terminal values either. I think people just claim their values are terminal in order to avoid examination.
People probably value revenge because it is satisfying. How many people value revenge enacted against themselves?
Valuing obedience to God and whatnot may initially seem like a terminal value, but if it was, people who claim it wouldn’t spend so much effort justifying those things on other grounds, and/or claiming that God exemplifies other virtues. See, e.g., a few thousand years of Christian discourse on Euthyphro. Honoring god as a terminal virtue is literally one of the horns if the dilemma, and thousands of gallons of ink have been spilled trying to lawyer out of it.
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Real life Anti-semites almost never say “I just like to see Jews suffer.” They usually say that the Jews are responsible for a long list of world tradgedies and abuses. Often anti-semites are visibly happy to see the Jews suffer. But their views might be likened to a crime victim happy to see the person who hurt them thrown in jail.
Of course Anti-semites have insane views on history. And insane views on the current political system. But they do not have a “terminal value” of Jewish suffering.
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How do you tell the difference between “hates, and as a result of their hatred believes the people they hate are doing bad things”, and “believes that certain people are doing bad things, and as a result hates them”?
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Ozy, thank you for having a left- leaning venue where I can say there are bad things about Social Justice and not be shushed for it– I could say such things in a right-leaning venue, but I’d be likely to dislike a lot of the participants.
The reason I’m just complaining rather than offering solutions is that I have no idea how Social Justice could change into something more benign. I do see the introduction to The New Jim Crow as an example of doing things right. The author, a black civil rights lawyer, tells her history of gradually learning that incarceration (and the subsequent damage to ex-prisoners’ reputations and opportunities), but she never beats herself up for ignorance or privilege.
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This post is very well written. It’s informative, passionate, entertaining, and even compassionate. And yet…
And yet, after reading it, I don’t feel like I’ve learned anything new. As far as I can tell, the word “kyrarchy” means “social inequality”. Last time I checked, we do not live in a world of clones, so yeah, social inequality exists. But we already knew that.
The take-away action items of this article are, basically, “be aware that you may have advantages others do not”, “be nice to people”, and “donate to [effective] charities”. Again, these are not exactly earth-shattering revelations, and we don’t need a special term like “kyrarchy” to explain why these are good ideas.
The section on common social justice failure modes is theoretically useful; but this article was written in 2012, and now, almost three years later, the failure modes are more intense and more frequent than ever. I suspect this is largely due to the fact that “be nice to people” is a very ineffective rallying cry, as compared to something like “destroy the evil outgroup”.
So, ultimately, I don’t see the point behind the concept of “kyrarchy”; nor do I think that the kinder, gentler version of social justice that Ozy advocates will ever catch on (regardless of how much we’d want it to). As far as I can tell, if your goal is to effect positive change in the world then your only option is to join one of the screaming rage movements (just pick the one whose rage matches yours), and hope for the best. If you are unwilling to do that, then your only options are… to be nice to people, donate to charities; and whenever the wave of hate engulfs you, just try to ride it out.
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I suggest surf boards.
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