The Citadel: A Game of Thrones Mod

I mean it's just seems they are more suitable to be artifacts instead of traits

They already answered this, they believe it superfluous and will be sticking with the current system for the foreseeable future.

I think those of us who wants this will have to wait, pray and hope that someone will make this a submod. I've fallen too deeply in love with the artifact system by now but unfortunately im completely clueless as to how to make this myself

Until we can see the history of an artifact they are likely to remain traits.

blackninja9939 wrote:Until we can see the history of an artifact they are likely to remain traits.

But hope is the last thing to die

Joron Corbie wrote:

blackninja9939 wrote:Until we can see the history of an artifact they are likely to remain traits.

But hope is the last thing to die

Can't you make it so, that when you have the artifact you get the trait? That way you could have it both ways?

Centaurus wrote:

Joron Corbie wrote:

blackninja9939 wrote:Until we can see the history of an artifact they are likely to remain traits.

But hope is the last thing to die

Can't you make it so, that when you have the artifact you get the trait? That way you could have it both ways?

Yes but that is just pointless, why add the artifact and use the existing trait? Just keep the trait, no need to add both it is just superfluous.

blackninja9939 wrote:Yes but that is just pointless, why add the artifact and use the existing trait? Just keep the trait, no need to add both it is just superfluous.

Well you can make "sword claimers". Say you get the arrifact sword, you get a trait "XXX sword claimer", and when you lost the artifact (lost in battle, stolen etc), your trait is not gone. Note that only the once-holders can have that claimer trait so it shows all those who has this trait had this sword, and with two or more living person with trait, they will grab any chance they get to be the real holder again.

Example here:
A is from dynastyA (dA), and his house has this Val sword for generations (vA), and now A has this sword (A has both artifactA (aA) and trait (tA)). In a duel, A lost and vA was claimed by B (B now has both aA and tA, while A only has tA left), but A is not dead.

So then A has events (tA holder events) like stole vA back, challenge B again etc to get his sword back. in another duel, A lost again and was killed, B still has vA and tA. now members of dA can try to take the sword from B (or any non-dA sword holder, if B is dead and the sword passed in dB), but without tA they have less options to do that and they need to be good enough so they can success in events.

Eventually a sword master C in dA duelled D (B's son, has both trait and sword) and got the sword back, D still has tA and can try to get it back in the future, but if he dies his descedants can't do that because vA is not dB's traditional sword.


The points of doing that are:
1.Sword as artifact just seem fit.
2.Claimer trait will show all the sword holders in the past.
3.Losing the traditional sword isn't that heart-breaking or game-breaking (for players constantly try to steal swords of traiditional houses). Sword-taking was strictly limited as once a new house get the sword they can hold it almost forever until the whole house die out. Now with this system is no longer the case: Traditional houses can try to get it back as long as they still live, so for new sword holders it is risky to try and collect all swords (for example, you are a great warrior and had 5 sword taken away from your foe, after you died, all your sons are challenged by great warriors of those houses and your house died in a blink because one by one your sons were challenged and killed)

solomonlightman wrote:

blackninja9939 wrote:Yes but that is just pointless, why add the artifact and use the existing trait? Just keep the trait, no need to add both it is just superfluous.

Well you can make "sword claimers". Say you get the arrifact sword, you get a trait "XXX sword claimer", and when you lost the artifact (lost in battle, stolen etc), your trait is not gone. Note that only the once-holders can have that claimer trait so it shows all those who has this trait had this sword, and with two or more living person with trait, they will grab any chance they get to be the real holder again.

Example here:
A is from dynastyA (dA), and his house has this Val sword for generations (vA), and now A has this sword (A has both artifactA (aA) and trait (tA)). In a duel, A lost and vA was claimed by B (B now has both aA and tA, while A only has tA left), but A is not dead.

So then A has events (tA holder events) like stole vA back, challenge B again etc to get his sword back. in another duel, A lost again and was killed, B still has vA and tA. now members of dA can try to take the sword from B (or any non-dA sword holder, if B is dead and the sword passed in dB), but without tA they have less options to do that and they need to be good enough so they can success in events.

Eventually a sword master C in dA duelled D (B's son, has both trait and sword) and got the sword back, D still has tA and can try to get it back in the future, but if he dies his descedants can't do that because vA is not dB's traditional sword.


The points of doing that are:
1.Sword as artifact just seem fit.
2.Claimer trait will show all the sword holders in the past.
3.Losing the traditional sword isn't that heart-breaking or game-breaking (for players constantly try to steal swords of traiditional houses). Sword-taking was strictly limited as once a new house get the sword they can hold it almost forever until the whole house die out. Now with this system is no longer the case: Traditional houses can try to get it back as long as they still live, so for new sword holders it is risky to try and collect all swords (for example, you are a great warrior and had 5 sword taken away from your foe, after you died, all your sons are challenged by great warriors of those houses and your house died in a blink because one by one your sons were challenged and killed)

Honestly, I think that's a bit too complicated. I think the trait system is fine but I do really love the artifact system. But the way Artifacts can go missing doesn't fit Valyrian steel swords I don't think. I think it should be a submod for the main mod. Like changing people's portraits. It should be optional.

solomonlightman wrote:

blackninja9939 wrote:Yes but that is just pointless, why add the artifact and use the existing trait? Just keep the trait, no need to add both it is just superfluous.

Well you can make "sword claimers". Say you get the arrifact sword, you get a trait "XXX sword claimer", and when you lost the artifact (lost in battle, stolen etc), your trait is not gone. Note that only the once-holders can have that claimer trait so it shows all those who has this trait had this sword, and with two or more living person with trait, they will grab any chance they get to be the real holder again.

...

The points of doing that are:
1.Sword as artifact just seem fit.
2.Claimer trait will show all the sword holders in the past.
3.Losing the traditional sword isn't that heart-breaking or game-breaking (for players constantly try to steal swords of traiditional houses). Sword-taking was strictly limited as once a new house get the sword they can hold it almost forever until the whole house die out. Now with this system is no longer the case: Traditional houses can try to get it back as long as they still live, so for new sword holders it is risky to try and collect all swords (for example, you are a great warrior and had 5 sword taken away from your foe, after you died, all your sons are challenged by great warriors of those houses and your house died in a blink because one by one your sons were challenged and killed)

On point 1, I think it's not self-evident but there are good reasons why you'd say that. Having the larger images on other artifact weapons makes them seem more important than the Valyrian Swords, which is counter-intuitive. It also allows the mod to jetison the workaround for not using more than one sword in a duel and avoids having to add another workaround to avoid using a valyrian sword and another weapon (possibly a steel sword) in a duel.

Point 2 was addressed the last time that this was raised. Apparently what really matters is the history of the people who died in possession of the swords.

I think there's parts of point 3 already implemented in so far as certain houses have attachment to their ancestral blades.

Why is the history of the swords so important? I mean, with the traits it's not like you can hover over the trait and see the previous owners in the tooltip or something alike. Also, even if you say "we can see which dead people had a VS sword" that only accounts for people who died while owning one. If someone was stolen a sword, then you'll have no clue he or she was ever an owner of a WS sword.

Also, the artifacts provide handy scopes for "current owner" and "rightful owner", which is just ideal in simplifying the code around stealing VS swords.

(Even then, if you really want to know that a dead person owned a VS sword, then it's best to switch to using artifacts, and then add an on_death event that gives the corresponding trait. That way you have the best of both worlds.

Well, I'm sure blackninja is pretty tired of all the talk about Valyrian swords being artifacts, but I'm still going to give it my 2 cents.

IMO, they should be artifacts for no other reason than the fact that the artifact system exists and is used by other items. There are crowns, books, jewels, armors and even other, non-valyrian weapons. The system encompasses everything but the swords, and it feels very weird that these 2 systems exist in parallel with no connection. If every other item is an artifact then swords ought to be so as well for the sake of consistency. Having a trait and an artifact at the same time is a tad redundant, I agree, but I value a boost to consistency more than a small amount of redundancy.

Now, I can understand the wish to be able to see who held swords at different times though, but as has been pointed out this already doesn't happen if someone gave away or was robbed of their sword, it only applies if you held the sword at death, making the history incomplete. So I wonder, would it be possible to give any character a trait signifying they held a sword once they lose it for any reason? Like, Jeor Mormont gives Longclaw to Jon Snow, loses it from his armory but gains a trait called "Held Longclaw" or "Owned Longclaw" or something. That way it would still be clear who had it at different times. The same system could be used on both sword inheritance, on gifting the sword and on being robbed of it, preserving the history for all.

It could also, potentially, address the issue of redundancy if that was desired, as you could just make the sword an artifact for as long as they held it and only add a sword holder trait on death, making the sword itself an artifact but use traits to track its history. Of course, all of this rests on the possibility of being able to have a trigger that gives you a trait upon losing an artifact for any reason. If that can't be done, well shit.

It would probably be a little work and is not the biggest of deals as the current system also works, but hey, i think it would be cool.

EDIT: kind of got ninja'd, the comment before mine didnt load before I posted for some reason and he had a similar idea. Oh well.

Is it possible to use artifacts as a way to construct a valyrian sword? For example, one could collect shards of valyrian steel over time (a la the apothecary supplies in MnM), which could lead to the adding of the valyrian steel trait. I'm unaware of how artifacts interact with flags or modifiers, but is this feasible? Granted, it seems a lot of work for very little payoff considering the established routes to get a valy sword.

armychowmein wrote:Is it possible to use artifacts as a way to construct a valyrian sword? For example, one could collect shards of valyrian steel over time (a la the apothecary supplies in MnM), which could lead to the adding of the valyrian steel trait. I'm unaware of how artifacts interact with flags or modifiers, but is this feasible? Granted, it seems a lot of work for very little payoff considering the established routes to get a valy sword.

From skimming through the existing scripts, that would be possible. I think the main reason for doing it is to allow for differences in the mass of Valyrian Steel weapons (e.g. Ice could be melted down into Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper).

WbtE wrote:

armychowmein wrote:Is it possible to use artifacts as a way to construct a valyrian sword? For example, one could collect shards of valyrian steel over time (a la the apothecary supplies in MnM), which could lead to the adding of the valyrian steel trait. I'm unaware of how artifacts interact with flags or modifiers, but is this feasible? Granted, it seems a lot of work for very little payoff considering the established routes to get a valy sword.

From skimming through the existing scripts, that would be possible. I think the main reason for doing it is to allow for differences in the mass of Valyrian Steel weapons (e.g. Ice could be melted down into Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper).

Or in reverse, possessing both of them could allow you to reforge Ice, rather than just one of them doing that.

Crowns, books, jewels, armors and non valyrian weapons.. None of those are nearly as important as a valyrian weapon. The names of people who wielded them is the kind of thing that goes down in history. The only thing I would have used for the artifact system is the crowns but even then Paradox broke it by not having what crown you wear overwrite the crown you have on in game..

LancelotLoire wrote:Crowns, books, jewels, armors and non valyrian weapons.. None of those are nearly as important as a valyrian weapon. The names of people who wielded them is the kind of thing that goes down in history. The only thing I would have used for the artifact system is the crowns but even then Paradox broke it by not having what crown you wear overwrite the crown you have on in game..

They can if you do the portraits right like we have for the Valyrians

You misunderstood what I said ninja. I don't know what the crown artifacts are in the game soo... I'll just make up names for them :p

Lets say that you're wearing the conquerors crown (Aegon I). This is decided based off of what your traits are in game. IE: you're more likely to wear this if you're a master warrior or if your martial is above 12.

So what my idea would be which would entirely be possible to code into the game by Paradox, would be that the crowns in the artifacts window correspond to what crown your character graphically wears. This would allow characters of different cultures to use the same crowns. IE: say a character of the dorne culture inherits the Iron Throne. Instead of having the typical dorne crown they would be given the same crown choices that their predecessor had (as well as the dorne one if they wanted). This would allow a "Kingdom" to collect more crowns as well as the chance of losing crowns. Down to the point of a kingdom having no crowns at all and needing to "craft" a new crown. See what I mean? But Paradox didn't hardcode that into the game engine.

I know what you meant and you can do it with the has_artifact condition although if you have multiple crowns it may not work due to the lack of an equipped artifact condition but IIRC that is gonna be added eventually. Having it work hardcoded from the artifacts would be better of course.