Conversation: Is Masculinity Toxic?

0vinq0 · 18時間前

Thanks for the prompt, OP. I strongly recommend to everyone here to check out the MensLib Glossary of Common Terms linked in the sidebar, which will give you a foundation to start this discussion. Primarily, take a look at the definitions for masculinity and toxic masculinity. Note the relationship between the traits listed. I'll transcribe some examples here:

Masculine Trait	Toxically Masculine Trait
Emotional toughness	Stoicism
Courage	Fearlessness
Self-reliance	Relational cutoff
Risk-taking	Life endangering risks
Competitiveness	Hyper-aggression

As you can see, toxic masculinity is definitely related to masculinity, but the terms are not interchangeable.

Also, take care to consider the different definitions of "masculinity" the participants in this conversation may be using. Some use the term to describe the experience of being a man, and thus interchangeable with "being a man", while others use it to describe the socially-constructed pressures associated with being a man. Others might be defining it even differently. These differences in definition are often a huge source of disagreement, because people don't realize they're using different definitions.

I strongly suggest being explicit about what you mean here, rather than relying on the assumption your reader knows which definition you mean.

moe_overdose · 21時間前

I think that masculinity isn't toxic, it's specifically forced masculinity that's toxic.

Everyone's different. Some people naturally fit into traditional ideas of their gender, and that's okay. Some people don't, and that's okay too. Unfortunately, people often get shamed and pressured into conforming to these stereotypes, and treated badly when they don't conform. That's toxic, because it's dehumanizing, it reduces a person to their genitals and takes away their individuality.

So, a person can be the most stereotypical manly man ever, and it's perfectly ok, not toxic at all, as long as it's his personal choice to be like that, and not a result of outside pressure.

OPisadumbassss · 20時間前

I think there are certainly kinds of toxic femininity, but that the socialization women receive means that it is often expressed in toxic passive-aggressive, guilting, self-victimization, or less 'aggressively' abusive ways when present.

The whole notion that a woman needs to 'train her man', or when you see women gleefully subscribing to notions that they must be treated like a commodity... that's pretty toxic

bucketRace · 19時間前

The term "toxic masculinity" does not mean all masculine characteristics are toxic, it is referring to a subset of characteristics associated (perhaps incorrectly) with masculinity that are sometimes considered damaging to those that attempt to adhere to them.

To quote the wikipedia page;

The concept of toxic masculinity describes standards of behavior among men in contemporary American and European society that encourage domination and control of others while being opposed to intellectualism and emotional sensitivity. Toxic masculinity is closely related to the ideas of hegemonic masculinity and patriarchy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

MistressOfAllPixels · 19時間前

My problem isn't the idea that a person should be tough, should be strong, should uphold their teammates. My problem is the idea that those are traits a man should have but not a woman. It shouldn't have to BE called "manning up" or "putting your big girl panties on" (the equivalent I heard growing up). And we already have some neutral terms: step up, bring it, bust a gut.

My other problem is when being "manly" or "womanly" is associated with behaviors unconnected with biology. Our tertiary gender markers are arbitrary and have nothing to do with our physical differences. But when someone says a guy is a "manly man," they also mean he a certain limited wardrobe and has a certain limited range of haircuts. When they say someone is a "girly girl," they mean she dresses and presents a certain way.

I don't want to stop men wearing khakis and baseball hats or stop women from wearing pink and ruffles if that's what they each want. I also think it's unfair that a person who doesn't adhere to those dress codes is assumed to be trans because obviously, you can't be happy in your biological gender without aggressively presenting the tertiary social markers of it. There's nothing wrong with being trans; but our current conversation about it tends to reinforce aggressively these tertiary markers.

I want a world where a woman in khakis and a woman in ruffles don't feel automatic antagony because of their clothing choices. I want a world where the guy in jeans doesn't feel threatened by the guy in makeup. It's not masculinity or femininity. It's enforcement.

lasagnaman · 19時間前

toxic masculinity being bad does not mean "masculinity is toxic".

Personage1 · 19時間前

I think gender roles are inherently toxic. I also think "toxic masculinity" is a subset of male gender roles that are especially toxic.

Gender roles are the idea that a person should act a certain way because of their gender. The reality though is that there is no reason why everyone shouldn't strive to have good behavior and avoid bad behavior, with plenty of "neutral" behavior that anyone can have. There is no reason why being there for your teammates is a masculine trait, or why caring for a child is a feminine trait. If someone likes cars, sewing, football, or love stories, it doesn't matter what their gender is. You say it's good for people to "man up" sometimes. What does coming through for others even when you dont necessarily want to have to do with being a man?

I think that forcing behavior on people because of their sex is inherently harmful, because no one can ever fit into the stereotype perfectly, and so feels forced to behave in ways they don't want to for no good reason.

"Toxic masculinity" is a subset of masculinity that goes beyond the inherent problems. The term is mostly for the benefit of people who don't think gender roles are inherently harmful, in order to at least show that there are ways for them to be unquestionably harmful. The pressure male veterans feel to not get treatment for mental issues is a clear example, as it leads to greater rates of suicide.

So is masculinity toxic? I think so, but it's because all gender roles are inherently toxic. Are all traits attributed to masculinity toxic? No, which is why a distinction is needed to single out the traits that are toxic, or the ways a trait can become toxic if taken too far.

Finally, you ask why there isn't "toxic femininity." To be blunt, if you read what feminists have been saying since the start of feminism, you will see that the idea that there are problems with femininity is something feminists have been well aware of since the beginning. There was never a need to clarify that femininity could be bad. Masculinity on the other hand has received a great deal of pushback to the idea that it can be bad, and so a way to really drive the point home became necessary.

Vanbone · 19時間前

I think the masculinity, as a historically oppressive cultural force, has gained a bad reputation for those who pay attention to gender roles. It is associated with violence, reckless behavior, alcohol and drug abuse, physical abuse, rape, sexual harassment, etc.

However, I do think that, as you point out, there are many positive qualities to masculinity. Ambition and competition can be destructive forces, but they can also yield better skill developments and stronger work ethics. Oppressing your emotions can be damaging, but can also be much more constructive than the inverse during times of hardship, particularly if one has few other coping mechanisms to choose from. Sometimes, elements within this world may threaten or actually bring violence to our doorstep, and when that happens, the ability to offer threat of violence or actual violence in return can prevent terrible things from happening.

Personally, what I find most objectionable about masculinity are three-fold:

1) A valuing of personal achievement and tribalism. When taken to the extreme, this often comes at the cost of others and may be pursued without scruples. Historically speaking, this has led to levels of oppression that would be difficult to overstate.

2) A lack of self-reflection or emotional honesty both without and within. This is why machismo is often characterized as 'immature'.

3) As others have pointed out, masculinity is culturally prescribed for half the population. Attempts to reject it often carry a high social cost, while attempts to embrace it are often heavily reinforced, while for the other half of society, it's just the opposite.

silentxem · 16時間前

Toxic masculinity, to me, is the expectation that someone act a certain way because they have a penis, often to their detriment.

Assertiveness to the point of aggression I think is one of the greatest examples of how extreme masculinity can be toxic. If your whole image of your gender hinges on getting your way, you can end up doing some pretty awful things.

The hesitation (or outright refusal) to share emotions or show vulnerability, particularly with other men, I think is another good example. It's okay to be stoic much of the time (provides much stability), but no one should feel like they have to keep everything bottled up just to maintain an image of manliness. That breeds loneliness and disconnection.

I think there is certainly toxic feminimity as well. Over-vulnerability would be the mirror image. Being overly sensitive, just like being insensitive, is a bad extreme. On the other hand, it can be a source of great empathy for others. Being passive makes you a pushover, but it also frequently allows you to get along with people better. But unlike men and toxic masculinity, women are not usually praised for these feminine qualities the way men are, and the very extremes are seen as bad (or at least neutral), while extreme masculine traits are many times celebrated.

Really, we all have a mix of masculine and feminine traits, and they don't have all that much to do with our sex chromosomes. Most people don't fall on the extreme end of most trait spectrums, but rather somewhere in the middle.

There is nothing wrong with having masculine traits. But not all men need to be masculine and not all traits should be taken to their extreme. Because really, it's all about an over-emphasis and having a very narrow set of behaviors that define what it means to be a "man."

Semi-Hemi-Demigod · 21時間前

I think you're confusing "toxic masculinity" with "masculinity." Just like there are "toxic chemicals" and "chemicals," not all masculinity is toxic.

username_redacted · 20時間前

"Toxic masculinity" doesn't have anything to do with biology, it's about culture. Discussions of sexual dimorphism, hormones, and genetics are irrelevant to the issue. I wish more men would understand that indictments of patriarchy, and concepts like "rape culture" are not indictments of men as individuals. You can certainly talk about cultural disfunction represented by women as well, but to do so you have to begin by acknowledging women's history as a subservient and oppressed class.

The term "man up" is just stupid. There are elements of the concept that are certainly valuable- taking personal responsibility, persistence against adversity, etc. But the phrase enforces the false notion that these are somehow male characteristics, when they are unequivocally not, and that the failure to "man up" means being womanly. There is no set of "shared masculine values".

cgamonitor · 20時間前

I think machismo is toxic, not masculinity.

strangething · 20時間前

There are lots of ways to be a man. Toxic masculinity undoubtedly exists. The challenge for Men's Lib is finding a positive masculinity.

RapaciousRaptor · 21時間前

This should be a good conversation topic.

I'm still working through ideas like this so I may not have a lot to say. That said, I don't think masculinity is toxic. To say that it is feels too close to men are toxic to me. Now, parts of masculinity are definitely toxic, though they can have their place.

For instance, shutting yourself down emotionally could be helpful during a time of war. You just go an get your job done, you know? Of course, this has it's opposite in which you still need to be able to deal with and process emotions during and after war times.

Shit like that, you know. But, I digress.

I think masculinity as a whole is a good thing. Like I said, there are toxic elements, but the whole concept of masculinity is, I think, a good thing. The issues we deal with a lot, I think it, come from people trying to say that there is only one masculinity when, in fact, there are many different varying degrees.

lucyinthelargetee · 21時間前

I'm a pretty feminine woman, my SO isn't super focused on being extra masculine but he is undoubtedly masculine and I like it. To me, it's a good balance of positives and negatives between the genders.

I like the way I am and the way I feel but I like seeing how men generally have different experiences, feelings or views.

kdotalbasi · 17時間前

What it comes down to for me is masculinity is the general way in which many men come to a set of shared values. These are not necessarily different than what a woman values, but the avenue in which they are approached are in general different based upon the common experiences of many men.

In my own experience as a man, I don't see many masculine traits actually being more common or differentiated than the same traits in women.

Going by the glossary of this sub as an example:

Strength: emotional toughness, courage, self-reliance, rationality

Honor: duty, loyalty, responsibility, integrity, selflessness, compassion, generativity

Action: competitiveness, ambition, risk-taking, agency, volition

A couple I associate with men (risk-taking, competitiveness), most I see as gender-neutral, and some I actually more associate with women (compassion, selflessness).

So while I don't think the concept of masculine traits is necessarily a bad thing, as defined it seems to me masculinity is more a fanciful idea than anything objectively unique about men.

ryncyn · 21時間前

All people play a role in enforcing the gender roles of the opposite gender. Complaining about the less savory traits isn't the same as "not reinforcing them".

PG-Noob · 7時間前

I had to get used to the term a bit, but I think as long as it is used in the way pointed out in the sticky comment (https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/6bxjua/conversation_is_masculinity_toxic/dhqibli/), it is a reasonable and useful concept.

However I do think it is often not used this way and that there are some particularly bad usages of it:

1) I think often people throw out the baby with the bath water and for example say that for example competetiveness, risk-taking and emotional thoughness are already toxic and not only hyper-aggression, life endangering risks and stoicism. With this usage it really seems to me that all masculinity is deemed toxic and that is of course not good. It's even more weird, since we often want to encourage these traits in girls (in particular competetiveness, self-reliance, etc. i.e. traits that pay off in pursuing a career) so then it just becomes a double standard.

2) Often "toxic masculinity" seems to be the go-to answer for any problems that men face. Boys underperforming in school? It's their toxic masculinity telling them not to put in any effort. Men killing themselves much more often? Their toxic masculinity prevents them from seeking help. etc.pp.

The problem here is that while toxic masculinity might play a role in some of these issues, it is usually not as monocausal as that. In the end this is just a way to derail the conversation. If we can't talk about men's issues without talking about how it's all their own fault, that's a problem.

3) Especially in pop-feminism (buzzfeed, everyday feminism, you name it) it just seems to be a lazy stereotype to me. There's a certain obsession with "dudebros", who are just bad people in every regard and have all these toxic traits and are super proud about it. Maybe it's a cultural thing and I just don't get it, because I don't live in the US and it's different there, but at least in my experience, most men are not like that at all.

halfercode · 15時間前

The suggestion that "masculinity is toxic" broadly comes from a fairly willful misrepresentation of an established feminist concept. I'm not saying you're doing that OP, but it's worth knowing the context of very similar conversations that have been had already, probably for several years now.

The back-story is that feminists came up with the idea of "toxic masculinity", which refers to the masculine behavioural trait, with the specific sub-class or qualification of "toxic". Unfortunately a number of folks dedicated to anti-feminism (possibly related to online misogyny movements such as MRM and RedPill) decided that feminists were throwing all of masculinity under the bus, which was never true. Unfortunately the misrepresentation seems to persist, whilst the reasonable objections to it tend to be forgotten.

An excellent analogy I heard goes like this. Imagine, in a conversation about cooking, someone referring to "toxic food". Another person with a bit too much of an axe to grind mind says, "Aha, gotcha! You said that all food is toxic", and then they rush off to spread that misinformation online, for the purpose of unfairly discrediting the speaker. Of course that's not what was said, or meant, but the error continues to spread.

Ive_got_a_sword · 13時間前

A lot of people here have already point out that the way Toxic Masculinity as a term used in social analysis is meant to be used is not the same thing as saying that masculinity in general is toxic, so I won't address that.

I do however, want to point out that I f-ing hate the term toxic masculinity. I think it is a poorly conceived term that by it's very structure is EXTREMELY likely to lead to exactly the sort of confusion you ran face-first into right here. Additionally, while Toxic Masculinity isn't SUPPOSED to imply that masculinity in general is toxic, I honestly think that it does double duty in some (not a huge amount but it bears saying) places where it's used.

TL;DR I much prefer to talk about toxic conceptions and self-conceptions of masculinity, toxic gender roles, and toxic socialization.

absentbird · 20時間前

I think there are two primary phenomenon which give masculinity a negative connotation on this sub:

Contemporary masculinity has a troubling amount of toxic behaviours under its umbrella; a lot of effort has been put into sussing those out and replacing them with less toxic alternatives. This puts a focus on the most toxic aspects.
A lot of positive behaviours are unnecessarily gendered; a lot of effort has been put into making the good masculine behaviours more acceptable for women and non-masculine people to perform.

As a result of those two patterns, the bad is magnified and the good is generalized. It isn't really the best thing for masculinity as a brand, but as a step towards a less rigidly gendered society I think it's in the right direction.

torpidcerulean · 19時間前

The phrase "toxic masculinity" typically refers to a set of learned behaviors that create undue harm. It's not always just the enforcement of these behaviors that others have mentioned. Many men I grew up around had borderline abusive perspectives on their marriage - the men control the house and the finances, men don't do housework, men can take steps to be worldly and skilled but women's first priority is taking care of the children. These erroneous beliefs make up a bulk of how we define traditional masculinity but create dramatically high rates of divorce and abuse.

skywreckdemon · 11時間前

Masculinity is not toxic, in my opinion. It can be in certain cases, but so can femininity.

eyejaeplas · 18時間前

why aren't equal parts of femininity called out?

They are, its called "Internalized misogyny". It's the same female equivalent as "Toxic masculinity" just that it scapegoats the responsibility from women and puts the blame on men/society. It's like when that female business insider writer called Millie from Stranger Things "shapeless" during the MTV awards. That is a perfect example of "Toxic Femininity" because it attacks a girl for not being feminine enough.

Masculinity is not "Toxic", just like anything in life is not toxic unless it is forced on to others. Masculinity can be good for people too, would positive masculinity be the reason why most fire fighters and search & rescue teams consist of mostly men? I would say that it has something to do with it, but i would not put the entire thing on it. There are lots of women who are in those jobs, but they do tend to portray more masculine features. This also goes into "What is masculine/feminine?"

Sometimes he would not "man up" and come to work and as a result it put a burden on the crew.

"Manning up" to me has always been about putting all excuses aside and taking ownership of your actions and responsibilities. I have never been told to "Man up" when i was emotionally devastated.

howhardcoulditB · 20時間前

It does seem like any masculinity is now considered toxic. There are many good things about traditional masculinity. We are not supposed to hide our feelings but what if they are masculine feelings? I agree that forcing your thoughts about how men should or shouldn't act or feel is toxic, but that's it. Being a man can mean a lot of different things, we can't define one way as being toxic.

That being said, I'm glad this came up. I asked this question months ago and nearly got banned.

raziphel · 12時間前

Like anything, some is and some isn't.

Probably not the answer you want, but it is what it is.

vonnegutite · 18時間前

The norm of hegemonic masculinity is quite toxic, but individually and maybe one day the norm won't be

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