上位 200 件のコメント表示する 500

[–]LittlestCandle 583 ポイント584 ポイント  (237子コメント)

lol /r/socialism at its best. two claps from me.

[–]thelastbelugaI am one with the drama, the drama is with me 411 ポイント412 ポイント  (235子コメント)

It really is remarkable. Each time I see something from r/socialism here it is them attempting to convince me that "no totally really we are not like Stalin and free speech is an absolute basic right" and then in the same breath turn around and go on a massive Stalin-esque purge destroying all dissenters and other opinions. It is comical really.

[–]postironyWarning: may create drama 270 ポイント271 ポイント  (123子コメント)

TBH, most of the people in /r/socialism seem far more enamored of purging dissenters and crushing capitalism then they do actually setting up a socialist society.

[–]labiolingual_trill 98 ポイント99 ポイント  (95子コメント)

It's similar with some of the other leftist subs which is kind of a shame really.

[–]postironyWarning: may create drama 191 ポイント192 ポイント  (6子コメント)

It's not a phenomenon exclusive to a political bent. Half the people who discuss politics on reddit are just hooked on anger and validation.

[–]Deggit 94 ポイント95 ポイント  (2子コメント)

hooked on anger and validation.

Yep and they defend it by saying "This subreddit isn't for explaining or debating!" which is just a roundabout way of saying it's for circlejerking and competing to state the most extreme and least valid version of the ideology. calling you out, /r/LateStageCapitalism

[–]DBerwick [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I remember when /r/FULLCOMMUNISM was about the memes.... then I got banned for saying that maybe killing innocent police officers was a step too far.

To which the counterargument, I'm sure, is "no such thing."

Yes, dehumanization is a terrible ill of capitalism, isn't it? Would be a shame if both sides took part. Reeeaaaaalllll shame.

[–]saraathHamilton was a commie 58 ポイント59 ポイント  (1子コメント)

frist of all how dare y ou

[–]Prince_Kropotkin¡Hasta la victoria siempre! 84 ポイント85 ポイント  (38子コメント)

/r/LeftWithoutEdge was a direct response to that and all the other subs immediately turned on it, like "how dare you not be edgy or focus on Internet wars between reddit sects!".

[–]urboro 42 ポイント43 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Policing their own numbers for insufficient piousness is actually what animates and inspires them, not attracting new members. People who reject the very premises under which they can be scolded are anathema, and banned.

[–]Prince_Kropotkin¡Hasta la victoria siempre! 41 ポイント42 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Well if you attract new members you might accidentally change the world in some way and you can't have that, better to just be the coolest member of radical online book club.

[–]CinderSkye 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (3子コメント)

FWIW I regularly disagree with your opinions and have little to contribute to discussions there, but I have been subscribed to LeftWithoutEdge for a while and am grateful for it. Quietly read stuff there on the regular.

I'm somewhere pretty left but I'm far from decided on where in the left I sit in practice.

[–]totalwar57 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Agreed. I'm glad that as a sub it's really fostered the idea that you don't need to necessarily agree with all of the specifics, just subscribe to a general ideology of respect for others. I only wish it were more active so that people wouldn't be put off from left ideas by some of the crazier parts of /r/socialism and /r/anarchism. Even if there's room for disagreement, you gotta respect what PK is doing.

[–]dood98998Angry Semen Chef[🍰] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Watch out PK, your fan club is coming!

[–]EliteNubSitting Back and Watching it Burn [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I'm a leftist, and I hate all of the leftist subs because of shit like this.

[–]johnnyfog 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yesterday on r/ChapoTrapHouse, they had a refugee from r/socialism wander in. He started talking about "the obsession with democratization." He also said that any honest reading of Marx will necessitate the formation of a vanguard party, and went "lol liberal" if you disagreed.

[–]pyromancer93 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

any honest reading of Marx will necessitate the formation of a vanguard party

There was a man named Vladimir who had similar thoughts.

[–]Prince_Kropotkin¡Hasta la victoria siempre! [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

There once was a man named Vladimir

Who thought "Hey it isn't very good here"

He formed a vanguard

Tried really hard

Overthrew the Tsar as the new puppeteer

[–]seijinn 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (8子コメント)

"We need to destroy society and start over, because in our lives we are privileged enough to get bailed out by our parents every time we fuck up and that seems to work."

[–]pappalegzMultiracial Hellscape 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (16子コメント)

It's similar to most politically minded subs

[–]urboro 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (15子コメント)

Everytime it pops up on SRD, it is hilariously farcical. I don't think any other political community has the comedy chops of the /r/socialism mod team.

[–]pappalegzMultiracial Hellscape 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (12子コメント)

[–]johnnyfog 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Abbott and Costello, Martin and Lewis, r/socialism and r/The_Donald

[–]SmienThis is why Trump won 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I somewhat think stuff like this from the_donald are more whacky than socialism banning angry users from Venezuela.

Fav quote:

ANNOUNCEMENT: WE KEEP REDDIT ALIVE, BUT REDDIT IS TRYING TO KILL US. ENOUGH. CENTIPEDES, TONIGHT WE DINE IN HELL.

But maybe that's just me

[–]pappalegzMultiracial Hellscape 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

what do the aliens from arrival have to do with this

[–]Atimo3Your meme is dank and you should feel dank[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They say a lot of things but nobody knows what the hell they are talking about and everything they say is just going in circles.

[–]CinderSkye 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I kinda think /r/socialism is silly and /r/the_donald is just batshit, they're not really the same.

[–]Susanoo-no-Mikoto 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think it's intrinsic to their philosophy in a way. Any attempt to reason about what a better world might look like is denounced as "utopianism"; apparently their only job is just to mindlessly revolt and "bash" people and then let the magic of the [d i a l e c t i c s] take care of itself. But if you don't know where you want to end up, then how do you really even know what you ought to do in the first place?

Oh, and meanwhile all the reactionaries from libertarians to religious fundamentalists have highly specific and intricate theories about what the Good society looks like that can still be easily explained to the average Joe and Jane on the street. It's no wonder they're winning.

[–]mrpopenfreshcuck-a-doodle-doo [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Any political sub really. Stay the fuck away from Internet politics.

[–]Aromir19Socrates died for the modern synthesis [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I can't count the number of times I've been called a neoliberal by Reddit socialists who don't even know who Keynes is. I was at fucking occupy I'm not taking this shit.

[–]smithrereen...saving one's country from (((them)) takes a Hitler. 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It seems that far-left online communities axiomatically follow a similar trajectory towards purges and censorship as real-world socialist regimes.

[–]whisperingmoon(◍•ᴗ•◍) casual scumbag, real-life bureaucrat 52 ポイント53 ポイント  (15子コメント)

Call me a Debbie Downer, but I just can't envision a Reddit of less than 100,000 people spread around the globe crushing the world economy as it currently exists or setting up a society. That's not a knock against any specific sub, really, it just seems like an awful lot of pressure to put on... You know... An internet forum.

[–]goatsareeverywhereEnergy works through relationships 43 ポイント44 ポイント  (13子コメント)

[–]Aetolthings should work the way I misunderstand the rest of the world 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (2子コメント)

This is absolutely hilarious.

I could call my backyard a country

That seems pretty close to the level of thought that's gone into this.

Well yeah, except /u/Recolumn actually has some legal ownership of their backyard.

[–]goatsareeverywhereEnergy works through relationships [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The funniest AMA disasters are the ones who keep trying to defend their shitty sales pitches despite getting piled on by just about everyone in the thread.

[–]lebron181 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I actually do want to see artificial countries pop up based on shared ideology. It would be so much easier to study political practices.

[–]whisperingmoon(◍•ᴗ•◍) casual scumbag, real-life bureaucrat 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Fortunately, I have wasted enough of my time on this website to know of Liberland, but thank you for reminding me of it. It is one of my most favourite Reddit disasters, lol

[–]goatsareeverywhereEnergy works through relationships 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Always awesome when an AMA doesn't go the way the OP thinks it would.

[–]fractals83 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Any chance of a summery?

[–]goatsareeverywhereEnergy works through relationships 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Crazy libertarians want to set up a new country on terra nullius, but don't understand what it takes to set up an actual, functioning country. When you have the time, you gotta read it!

[–]suchsmartveryiqCLOD! [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yup. Can attest to that - I was banned when they implemented the "no ableism" rule. I said that was a step too far, I got banned.

I sent a modmail explicitly stating my opposition to the rule and the fact I'm autistic. The mods basically said "lol who cares" and muted me.

Even worse, the mod who banned me was also autistic - autistic people also can get sucked in by bullshit.

[–]skoryy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Reddit has turned into their own little version of the farmer's house without having to convince anyone that two legs bad.

[–]Defengara fallacy to surpass metal gear 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (16子コメント)

Vanguardism is a Hell of a drug.

[–]thelastbelugaI am one with the drama, the drama is with me 33 ポイント34 ポイント  (15子コメント)

If it is Vanguardism then they are doing it completely wrong. I thought the idea of Vanguardism was to actually increase membership and draw more people in, not exclude people. Lenin would be deeply disappointed in them.

[–]Defengara fallacy to surpass metal gear 44 ポイント45 ポイント  (12子コメント)

TBH, Lenin would be deeply disappointed with almost everything since his death.

[–]suicidemachine 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Except the whole Warsaw Pact thing.

[–]depanneur [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Not really. The Warsaw Pact was part of Stalin's ambition to make the Soviet Union a great power on the world stage so that he could deal with the USA and UK as equals. Lenin wanted to spread the revolution across the planet; Stalin wanted to play status-quo international politics. Basically another way of saying "Lenin probably wouldn't have stopped at Berlin".

[–]pyromancer93 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

In all seriousness, they're more of a clique of people who are generally interested in leftism then any sort of organized group. Vanguardism implies a level of coherency you ain't getting from any subreddit.

[–]HVAvengeranacaps are ruining /r/libertarian 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Tankies gonna tank

[–]cisxuzuul 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I thought Pepsi was going to change this? Guess Mr Pibb is the real drink of the people.

[–]larrylemur(✿☯‿☯✿) She said, "Ok, I'm impressed!" (✿☯‿☯✿) 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

*Comrade Pibb

[–]HuckleberryFN2187Fight me! Loser bottoms. 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (8子コメント)

free speech is an absolute basic right

TBH most socialists (and even a lot of liberals) don't make that claim.

[–]thelastbelugaI am one with the drama, the drama is with me 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

It is interesting because many of the socialist political parties put a huge emphasis on freedom of speech. Take the Socialist Party of Great Britain for example.

The Socialist Party of Great Britain is wholeheartedly in favour of the fullest freedom of speech. This is because we hold that out of full and free discussion of today's social problems only one valid conclusion can emerge: that Socialism alone will provide the framework within which they can be solved.

Full free speech means exactly what it says: any and every view should be allowed expression so that it can be examined and shown to be wrong. One of the more obnoxious views current these days is racialism, the idea that some human beings are inferior to others and ought to be treated as such.

[–]azhtabeula [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

They are in favor of protecting free speech when they need that protection to spread their own ideas. Once they are in power, things turn around.

[–]theotherkevin23The Ric Flair of Popcorn [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Which is why the left is currently thriving in the UK

[–]Prince_Kropotkin¡Hasta la victoria siempre! 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'm pretty close to a free speech absolutist (in the civil liberties sense, not the vulgarized "I demand you pay attention to me and give me a platform to speak" sense) personally.

[–]Tidusx145 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Same with latestagecapitalism. Brags about free speech, then bans anything that doesn't tow the line.

[–]Prince_Kropotkin¡Hasta la victoria siempre! 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (45子コメント)

In this case it's a tiny bit more subtle. The Vzla posters are highly, highly unrepresentative of Venezuelans: English-speaking people with Internet access are likely to be rich whites or expats, and highly ideologically or even financially motivated on top of that to post a ton and rant everywhere about socialism and Maduro. Dealing with people like that can be a serious pain, especially if you don't aim to have an open debate sub but rather be more along the lines of a discussion sub for a particular group where you don't have to constantly defend basic assertions. Both models of sub have their place.

Now, that being said, /r/socialism goes far beyond "we need to moderate out people constantly ranting about socialism because they're making it difficult to have a decent conversation" on the regular. We all know how ban-happy they are and how fucking idiotic (you are now banned from /r/socialism) some of their rules are. Banning an entire sub worth of people because a few of them are disruptive and annoying is overkill, the net is too broad to be really useful. It's one thing to tag and ban noted members of small brigade subs that start drama everywhere they go, it's quite another to mass ban like that.

Since Venezuela's government and socialism in general are quite unpopular in this sub, let me make a comparison: suppose there were a bunch of rich, English speaking Yemeni expats that wanted to rant about the evils of capitalism and America's essential support of the Saudi war in Yemen, which has reduced hundreds of thousands to starvation and has seen things like the triple tap strike of funerals. I'd understand their anger but if I ran a sub about capitalism I probably wouldn't want dozens of those people constantly ranting and posting on every thread either. That wouldn't mean banning Yemenis on sight but it would mean telling people to take it somewhere else if they were making the forum substantially less usuable.

[–]CthonicJuly 2015: The Battle of A Pao A Qu 37 ポイント38 ポイント  (10子コメント)

I can understand the inclination to ban perceived class enemies from /r/socialism. That said, Venezuela is one of the most incompetently run, ass-backwards excuses for a socialist state on Earth. That goes double for Maduro's administration.

I just don't get why they rabidly support an absolute embarrassment towards their philosophy, especially while drowning out the voices of the oppressed. Maduro especially seems to be operating his government based on a desire to be optimal anti-socialist propaganda.

[–]Prince_Kropotkin¡Hasta la victoria siempre! 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (8子コメント)

I wouldn't even use the term "class enemies". I would just say "anyone who has an axe to grind about a topic, in particular one that is entirely opposed to the subject of this sub, and keeps disrupting the place, should GTFO".

A lot of these people also support Bashar al-Assad, the DRPK, etc. Who know what gives them their kicks. It's just silliness.

[–]MapleLoaves 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Sounds like a sub that focuses more on "anti-Westernism". They don't stand for anything. They are defined entirely but what they oppose.

[–]AG4W 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Polarization, almost always.

It's incredibly hard to be nuanced on the internet, and even harder when discussing politics.

[–]otarru 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (8子コメント)

In this case it's a tiny bit more subtle. The Vzla posters are highly, highly unrepresentative of Venezuelans: English-speaking people with Internet access are likely to be rich whites or expats, and highly ideologically or even financially motivated on top of that to post a ton and rant everywhere about socialism and Maduro.

I stopped reading right here. Firstly internet access is widespread regardless of social class; in many developing countries it has become a basic commodity for working class people as much as electricity or water is. When I traveled to Nepal, kids in slums wanted to add me on facebook. If you have internet access it's quite easy to develop good written English regardless of the quality of your education.

Even if it were true that internet access is related to income, why does this necessarily mark those users out as rich whites? Venezuela historically had a large middle class as well whose circumstances, while not comparable to the urban poor, are world's apart from the wealthy elites. Should we immediately dismiss people's opinions because they don't fit in with your image of the 'common man'?

For the record I don't fully sympathise with /r/vzla users, the Spanish comments are often very right wing, though I'm not sure you would have been able to know that. Still, your post reminded me why I've become disillusioned with leftist ideology recently.

[–]HobbesCalvinandLocke [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This is the same guy that apparently didn't know that North Korea was initially more industrialized than South Korea. He's ideology first, facts second.

[–]Shake_n_bake90 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Isn't that abit of a bad sign for socialism that only the rich can afford the Internet?

Also I was reading 81% population classified as being in poverty I'm sure the ones who don't have the Internet are not enjoying it.

[–]Prince_Kropotkin¡Hasta la victoria siempre! 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Only the rich could afford anything like the Internet (or equivalent luxuries in the 90s) before Chavez & Maduro too though. Venezuela has always been incompetently managed, the rich have always done well, and the poor have always suffered. When it was clearly because of capitalism you never heard anything about it. When it can be pinned on evil socialism and Bernie Sanders it's in the news every day.

[–]Shake_n_bake90 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I mean it's quite clearly got worse in the recent years under socialism.

However, either way it just suggests to me that both systems are inherently flawed.

[–]Atimo3Your meme is dank and you should feel dank[S] 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I mean it's quite clearly got worse in the recent years under socialism.

A lot of things got worse, the number of people with Internet acces wasn't one of those.

[–]josegv [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That guy is talking bullshit. Cantv which is one of the main providers in Venezuela was always cheap, and before they were nationalized they used to provide internet in non-urban/slums zones too, I know because I got my internet from them (Dial up at the time) when they were private and I live in the barrio.

[–]snallygasterFUCK_MOD$_420 240 ポイント241 ポイント  (21子コメント)

Venezuelans are starving and dying by the government hand and in addition they're now banned from a popular subreddit? Will they ever catch a break!?

[–]SavannaJeff 157 ポイント158 ポイント  (9子コメント)

To be fair, them being banned from /r/socialism is like being deported from Siberia to Canada.

[–]whisperingmoon(◍•ᴗ•◍) casual scumbag, real-life bureaucrat 41 ポイント42 ポイント  (8子コメント)

In the winter, I keep Novosibirsk in my weather app so I can see where's colder: central Canada or Siberia. It's a toss-up, honestly. But at least we have doughnuts.

[–]piddlystains 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Yeah, I think there are times when Winnipeg is colder than Siberia.

And even disregarding that, is being in Winnipeg ever too much better than being in Siberia?

[–]Captain_Flaps_JackEdit: If you downvoted this please respond here so I can ban you [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Even in Winnipeg I wonder how shitty my ancestors lives had to be that they chose this fucking place to live.

I mean, that's Winnipeg.

Forget all those schmucks to the North. I don't even know how anyone past Flin Flon survives winter.

[–]True_Jack_FalstaffCatgirls is an expression of misogynist objectification 74 ポイント75 ポイント  (7子コメント)

/r/socialism mods are eventually going to ban everybody on reddit but themselves.

That's when things will get interesting. The mods will have to battle each other.

[–]toopandatofluff 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (1子コメント)

There can be only one.

[–]True_Jack_FalstaffCatgirls is an expression of misogynist objectification 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

For the P U R E I D E O L O G Y

[–]snallygasterFUCK_MOD$_420 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You'd think that they'd welcome everyone with open arms to try and draw people into the cause, but I guess being ideologically pure is more important.

[–]Manannin 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Then all that'll be left are the mods and the dolan members out a-brigading!

[–]fdelta1(((✡️ Saturn Worshipping Gangster Mafia Bankers ✡️))) 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are they still fighting Trumpists there? I would have figured that with being so ban happy all the altrighters would've gone home.

[–]postironyWarning: may create drama 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (1子コメント)

They're not even that popular. This sub has more subscribers than they do, more than twice as many.

[–]OmegaBlue0231Space Jam Wizard[🍰] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

SRD, the largest Socialist sub on Reddit!

[–]saraathHamilton was a commie 70 ポイント71 ポイント  (32子コメント)

is /r/vzla more critical of the regime there?

[–]ncrted 118 ポイント119 ポイント  (28子コメント)

VERY critical of the regime. It is claimed that the sub borders on fascism but that is a load of BS. It has a wide spectrum of beliefs, most of them belonging to the center but almost everyone believes that his government has shit the bed

[–]Choppa790If we didn't take his airbase we'd be cucks. 65 ポイント66 ポイント  (22子コメント)

I can say this is a really worrying time in my country. Because the Pope didn't speak out in extreme opposition to the government, now you see him being adorned with Chavizta (communist/socialist) hats on facebook. And people suggesting you don't baptize your children - not gonna debate whether you should or shouldn't but a 80%+ Catholic country and people voicing these types of thoughts on fb, speak to a very divisive attitude of "with us or against us" that the opposition has garnered at this point.

There's currently not much space to dissent from the opposition without being called a Chavizta and I hope it doesn't devolve into right-wing killing squads "purging" the leftists, if the opposition wins this struggle.

I sincerely wish there was a post-mortem or analysis of the Venezuelan government from a socialist/communist perspective that did not amount to "it was never socialist, just state capitalist", because that is an absolute cop out. If your ideas are supposed to stand the test or time or be robust enough to work, they need fixing and they need analysis other than washing your hands of when millions die from starvation and blame droughts or flood, or corruption, etc.

[–]ncrted 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (15子コメント)

I agree, I have also been worrying about the fact that the country might make a hard swing to the right. It wouldn't be the first time that something like this happens. The country was already polarized before Chavez, but this regime has divided this country like never before and will haunt us for years

[–]Choppa790If we didn't take his airbase we'd be cucks. 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (7子コメント)

That's my biggest fear, and what i've been trying to tell my dad. A leftist might kill you cause they fucked up price controls, but there's a chance of recovery. A fascist might kill you cause of color of skin, religion, political ideology ON TOP of keeping those same fucked up policies.

There are good things the government did or promised to do. And if you don't want a leftist 22nd century revolution every 50 years, you need to have social welfare programs.

I realize this sounds a little more naive than I intended it, but I still think Fascists are a bigger problem. A reflection perhaps of living in America for so long.

[–]CthonicJuly 2015: The Battle of A Pao A Qu 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I realize this sounds a little more naive than I intended it, but I still think Fascists are a bigger problem. A reflection perhaps of living in America for so long.

Maybe, maybe not. Fascists are as a rule actively malevolent to a significant portion of society. Socialists of all stripes are ostensibly motivated by the suffering of society's poor.

Of course, from a practical perspective, killing millions of your own citizens out of malevolence isn't much different from killing them out of sheer incompetence. They're still dead. It's just that incompetence can potentially be corrected in a friendly manner, while malevolence tends to require forcible "correction".

[–]Choppa790If we didn't take his airbase we'd be cucks. 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah that's the way I see it.

[–]Bob_fromaccounting [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

On the other hand, the fascism vs socialism debate was settled decades ago and everyone other than edgy teenagers has come to the conclusion that both are retarded.

[–]piyochama◕_◕ 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's so terrifying. Venezuela has already suffered so much, do they really need to suffer more?

[–]johnnyfog 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Venezuala is what happens when the people elect charming incompetents who then refuse to leave when asked.

"Expropriate it!"

[–]MadotsukiInTheNexusGod doesn't owe you non-stop orgasms. [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

There's currently not much space to dissent from the opposition without being called a Chavizta and I hope it doesn't devolve into right-wing killing squads "purging" the leftists, if the opposition wins this struggle.

That's been my concern all along, too. When people post pictures of protests against dictatorship, there's a part of me that wants to be hopeful. At the same time, though, it's hard for me to feel celebratory about it instead of cautious. I'm worried that we'll see white hands painted on doors and murders in the night rather than free and fair elections. I try not to be overly negative since it would be good if Venezuela could get rid of Maduro and institute real democracy, but it's naive not to be a little concerned.

[–]Forseti5Popcorn for the people! 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (3子コメント)

The far left (especially on Reddit) has a tendency to label anyone or anything against them as fascist. I've literally seen r/anarchism call people fascist for advocating for not beating/killing people they disagree with. Examine that logic. "We should kill all fascists and if you disagree you are a fascist yourself and thus subject to being killed yourself".

[–]Crying-Cat [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

That never happens. Most of us are able to tell the difference between a fascist and a limp noodle liberal.

[–]dood98998Angry Semen Chef[🍰] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thats how I got banned from SRS. Good riddance, I say.

[–]DancesCloseToTheFire 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

To be fair, this isn't a left or right issue, the issue is just a bad government in general, regardless of any ideologies it may follow.

[–]LefthandedLunaticSomething Something Jews 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (1子コメント)

well yea because they are living in a Famine riddled mess with the largest economic implosion of a country in recent history. Nothing good comes from holding the record of the fastest shrinking economy.

[–]coco-o 183 ポイント184 ポイント  (21子コメント)

Venezuela isn't true socialism

fuck the bourgeois reactionary fascists protesting against our comrades in Venezuela

hmmm

[–]pigeon768 53 ポイント54 ポイント  (5子コメント)

What does a random capitalist dictatorship in South America have to do with socialism?

hmmm

[–]50baht 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (1子コメント)

S T A T E C A P I T A L I S M

T

A

T

E

C

A

P

I

T

A

L

I

S

M

[–]coco-o [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I agree, if it's not true socialism why do they even have a thread for it.

[–]churninbutter [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

I got so tired of hearing those idiots tell me Venezuela wasn't ever considered socialist I went and found some socialist blog back in 2012 where the author literally praises Venezuela for being a perfect example of the success of socialism

http://thepandarant.blogspot.com/2012/01/name-successful-socialist-country.html?m=1

[–]dalebonehart [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

You don't even have to look at random blogs, you can see what Bernie Sanders believes on his website:

"These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. Who's the banana republic now?"

[–]churninbutter [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

So that's a good point, and for most rational people I believe it would be sufficient, but for that lot you actually need a self proclaimed socialist calling Venezuela socialist or they'll try to tell you it doesn't count because X. At least that's what I've found

[–]theferrit32 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

It's only "true socialism" in the brief period where the supply hasn't started to run out. When the grocery stores empty, the currency implodes, the infrastructure collapses, and people start rioting just to get access to any remaining food and medicine, then it doesn't count as socialism anymore /s

[–]ItsSnackTyme 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's always fun when leftists eat their own. Whenever it hits r/all the [removed] starts piling in. Haha

[–]TashreIf humility was a contest I would win. Every time. 68 ポイント69 ポイント  (14子コメント)

Wait, so... /r/vzla is brigading /r/socialism with... socialists?

[–]thelastbelugaI am one with the drama, the drama is with me 60 ポイント61 ポイント  (7子コメント)

God forbid there are any socialists that happen to be Venezuelan and would want to talk about their country in a megathread about Venezuela on r/socialism.

[–]GalterTeodosio [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

Hey, it's me, the critical Venezuelan Socialist. I was banned, raised my concerns and got ignored. AMA.

[–]mPORTZERco-writer of gay ignorant Texan erotica [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

What are your thoughts on the album Trout mask replica?

[–]GalterTeodosio [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I've never been a fan of Captain Beefheart, I'm more of a Zappa kind of guy. Having said that, I think that Trout Mask Replica is the perfect backdrop for Maduro's speeches. Reminisces me of my day to day in Venezuela, trying to keep a smile against all the real-life shitposting.

[–]Works_of_memercySW 6193 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They think that they are socialists but it just turned out that they were state capitalists all along!

[–]easyescape [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

I grew up in India and was closely involved with a lot of socialist orgs during my time in undergrad. We used to have a term for these sorts of 'socialists', we called them California Maoists. There defining characteristic was their complete and utter ignorance about the basics of life in a developing country backed up by a shocking amount of arrogance.

They used to send money to supposedly Communist organisations in India and would celebrate the deaths of Indian policemen, while skating over the fact that the average policeman in India would earn less in a year than their parents spent on their coffee. Communists/socialists of all ilk, if they happen to have been born in the bubble of a first world country, have to be ignored whenever they arrogantly try to spout some bullshit about life in a developing nation. They don't have the first clue about anything and their insane privilege does nothing but completely overwhelm the voices of the actual victims.

So /r/socialism- Lol and fuck you.

[–]Kretzge [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Communists/socialists of all ilk, if they happen to have been born in the bubble of a first world country,

I know several people from both Cuba and Venezuela and while they don't necessarily always shit on their home countries (though some do), they prefer the US/capitalism across the board.

[–]visforvdivine you feel me cuck [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

It's funny because I know Cubans and Venezuelans too, and while some prefer capitalism, some of the others feel that capitalism isn't a great system either and don't really prefer it over socialism. In my case though, the divide is roughly split on class lines though, the ones preferring capitalism are from families that are middle/middle upper class, while the ones who aren't fond of capitalism are from lower class families that arrived in poverty and have largely remained in poverty.

I don't imagine this is true everywhere, but it does give me a feeling that one's feelings towards capitalism might be influenced by how it benefits you/your family.

[–]KahomiAru 86 ポイント87 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Fucking stupid shit, I fucking hate people that think Venezuela is in a good place, I have good friends in there and I can't do anything but see how bad they are doing, FUCK

[–]Defengara fallacy to surpass metal gear 62 ポイント63 ポイント  (4子コメント)

There's a recent article on r/worldnews right now showing that the average Venezuelan lost 19 pounds in 2016 due to lack of food :(

[–]goonch_fish 45 ポイント46 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm an International Relations student, and I shared this article with one of my classes. There was an audible gasp when I read aloud that 3/4 Venezuelans lost an AVERAGE of 19 lbs in the course of a year. 81% of households now live in poverty. Absolutely horrifying.

[–]kotegawa [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I knew it was bad, but THAT bad? How can anyone defend that regime?

[–]rcchomework [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The regime isn't helping, but crashed oil prices and the relative inflexibility of government programs to reduced revenues are mostly what is wrong. In a lot of ways, and with far fewer programs, Russia is going through the exact same thing..

See, that would be how you "defend this regime". I can't say I support any violence though, which I have heard is going on by the government in response to the protests...

[–]Aztook [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Theres this article humanizing the police and saying how hard it is for them too, they are also starving and can't speak out or else they lose their job and which seems to be of a pathetic and low wages but they will also get jailed. I feel bad for everyone involved its just horrible, those who have even a little bit of power can't do anything and those who are in the inner circle are just doing...

Wait what the fuck are they doing? Like I herd the top military brass seem to be with parasite they call a leader but what about many of the others? I'm trying to just wrap my head around how everyone else on top is silently being fine with this.

[–]Choppa790If we didn't take his airbase we'd be cucks. 130 ポイント131 ポイント  (59子コメント)

[–]SmienThis is why Trump won 67 ポイント68 ポイント  (47子コメント)

If there's something Venezuela have teached us, it's that you shouldn't base all of your economy on oil. 50% of the countries BNP was oil. It's really just economical mismanagement on a national level, it might just as well have happend if Venezuela was capitalist.

[–]Choppa790If we didn't take his airbase we'd be cucks. 46 ポイント47 ポイント  (12子コメント)

See the problem is that Venezuela had other industry before everything got nationalized and the country concentrated almost all its resources into oil production. That's not even the best lesson you can learn from Venezuela. How about not firing the 150,000 capable and knowledgeable engineers and managers just because they disagreed with you? My father worked for PDVSA and moved to private industry, meanwhile, many family members and friends of the family were summarily fired for signing the referendum petition.

Don't run continuous deficits. Don't be the epicenter of corruption in the entire country. Don't rail against rich people and have your daughter flash "Dolla Dolla Bills ya'll" on instagram. Or have multiple luxury suvs and homes in Florida.

[–]SmienThis is why Trump won 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (10子コメント)

See the problem is that Venezuela had other industry before everything got nationalized and the country concentrated almost all its resources into oil production.

Well yeah that's pretty much my point. Without a diverse economy they're really vulnerable to recession. Not a single country with half their GNP in oil would do well when oil prices go downhill. It's shitty economic managment, and that's not really exclusive to socialist regimes.

[–]AngryAlt1 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know it's a cliche, but economic diversity is something that free markets tend to solve pretty well. The problem is that no central authority can get everything right; free markets are naturally distributed amongst any and all profit-making venture, so this is exactly the kind of problem that Communism is especially suseptable to.

[–]50baht 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Not a single country with half their GNP in oil would do well when oil prices go downhill

Yes. I too am watching Saudia Arabia slide into hunger and extreme poverty because oil prices crashed.

Oh wait

[–]SmienThis is why Trump won 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Saudi-Arabia are running the oil economy, it's because of their export oil prices dropped in the first place. Ofcourse would they be fine, for now. They'll crash and burn sooner or later.

[–]LefthandedLunaticSomething Something Jews [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

They saved their money, they are burning through saving but they still have savings to burn. Meanwhile venzuela spend most revenue from oil to social programs. So as soon the oil revenue dropped they were immediately in deep shit. Of course this is just half of the problems. If you add pegged currency going though hyperinflation of 700% and price controls you have a colossal fuck up.

[–]Pedante32 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Venezuela was already having a food shortage crisis when the price of oil was at above 100$/barrel.

[–]50baht 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, which is totally proved by countries like Colombia, Brasil, Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc.

And theres totally no correlation with Venezuelan oil exports beginning a long, sustained crash in 2002 because Chavez wasn't elected until... Oh shit, he was elected in 2002.

[–]coco-o 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (8子コメント)

so you're saying the problem comes from being a centrally planned economy? Hmm, I wonder what the alternative to that could be....

[–]SmienThis is why Trump won 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Antiauthoritarian, decentralized local democracy with worker owned means of production, combined with direct democracy and the ability to replace elected politicians or representatives if they dont do their job? I hear ya!

[–]50baht [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

with worker owned means of production

If I'm a worker, I own a portion of the means of production. So I guess if I work at a shoe factory, I own part of the factory and have claim to the profits. Cool.

If I own a portion of the factory and profits, can I sell that ownership to someone else?

If yes, whats the difference between this and capitalism?

If no, how can you say I own something if I can't sell it voluntarily?

[–]freakboy2k [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You own part of it by virtue of working on it. Individually, don't own it, all workers collectively own it.

We can have these already under capitalism, they're called Worker's Co-operatives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_cooperative and some of them are quite successful (Mondragon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag%C3%B3n_Cooperative_Corporation in Spain is a pretty good example of this).

If I own a portion of the factory and profits, can I sell that ownership to someone else?

Shares in the company are granted based on you working there, and are forfeit as soon as you aren't working there.

If no, how can you say I own something if I can't sell it voluntarily?

You could say the same thing about share options that you forfeit by leaving a company before they vest, or any other restricted share ownership scheme. Plenty of them exist in today's society, I've been a part of a few of them already (nothing interesting like a co-op, just startups that have restricted share programs due to shareholder agreements that require the approval of the major shareholders for any share transactions).

[–]wote89 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The idea is that you can't separate yourself from the value of that stake without either separating yourself from the factory—in which case you no longer have a stake in the production of the factory—or from the full value of your labor. So, the real question is whether your stake in the factory ought to be inalienable from your labor.

If the answer is yes, then your ownership is not derived from your ability to sell that labor-value, but from the fact that it is a consequence of your direct action and labor. It's akin to making something for your personal use or enjoyment that has little-to-no market value. You still own that thing, even if you cannot sell it, and you still derive value from it.

If the answer is no, then the difference from capitalism you're at least a direct actor in determining the value of your labor rather than subject a third party's profit motive. Your stake in the factory would be a direct reflection of both the collective value of your goods in the greater market and your personal contribution to the creation of that value.

Would it work perfectly? No, but neither does any other model when applied to the real world and subjected to human action. The end-goal is to at least reduce the distance between the value of the individual's labor and the value they derive from it.

[–]wote89 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Hold the phone, there. I don't see any space in there for me and my highly educated friends to lead society into a golden age. How can that possibly work without us?

[–]misko91wut [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

it's that you shouldn't base all of your economy on oil

I mean it worked out pretty well for Libya (I mean except for the civil war, but that's more because of the whole dictatorship thing and systematic destruction of all the institutions in their country then their economy). They were a country that was so poor, the largest source of income in 1951 was salvage from WW2 battlefields. And yet even under Gaddafi's frankly nutty domestic reforms ("SOCIAL EQUALITY! ALSO SOCIALISM! ALSO SHARIAH LAW!"), they still went from one of Africa's poorest countries to one with a life expectancy just under that of the US.

[–]whisperingmoon(◍•ᴗ•◍) casual scumbag, real-life bureaucrat 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (7子コメント)

(globe emoji) henlo fren

[–]yredstatue 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (6子コメント)

TACO

[–]whisperingmoon(◍•ᴗ•◍) casual scumbag, real-life bureaucrat 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (5子コメント)

TRUCKS

[–]visforvdivine you feel me cuck [スコア非表示]  (16子コメント)

Despite what people say, this is really more a lesson about not staking your entire economy in one finite source of wealth, rather than how socialism is Inherently The Devil.

[–]Atimo3Your meme is dank and you should feel dank[S] [スコア非表示]  (15子コメント)

Also, don't elect a bus driver as president, he may not be prepared to run a country.

[–]visforvdivine you feel me cuck [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

Do what my family's country did and instead have a junta!

(Note: Do not do this).

[–]Ghraim [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I don't really see what makes bus drivers inherently inferior to others. It's not like being a millionaire automatically makes you a political genius.

[–]MalHeartsNutmeg [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

What's the deal with all the commies on reddit?

I mean you're entitled to your opinion but over the last 2-3 years it seems like a lot of communists rolled up expressing its virtues.

[–]Shake_n_bake90 57 ポイント58 ポイント  (11子コメント)

The socialism ideology is almost a theology to them.

It's really weird how people can be so narrow minded to other ideologies.

[–]sex_tourismI bet the liberals did this 72 ポイント73 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Now now, they have all kinds of ideologies there. Tankies of all power levels, maoists, NK supporters, probably even some anarcho-tankie-primitivist-marxists too. It is a very open minded community. Just remember to joke about violent revolution and killings of political opposition, and you are fine!

PS. no cat girls allowed.

[–]True_Jack_FalstaffCatgirls is an expression of misogynist objectification 38 ポイント39 ポイント  (3子コメント)

PS. no cat girls allowed.

I still have the flair from that one.

[–]postironyWarning: may create drama 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Somehow I missed this one. Is it redundant to say, 'God, what a bunch of power drunk idiots'? How do even get power drunk off subreddit moderation?

[–]goatsareeverywhereEnergy works through relationships 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

[–]Atimo3Your meme is dank and you should feel dank[S] 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (0子コメント)

-Cries socialdemocratically-

And this is why we killed Rosa Luxemburg for?

[–]TheFeret 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (12子コメント)

Has anybody set up a socialist subreddit that is vehemently opposed to /r/Socialism, everything they stand for, and everything they do?

Seriously, that sub is a fuckin' embarrassment to the left.

[–]Works_of_memercySW 6193 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (3子コメント)

/r/LeftWithoutEdge I think. I'm not a subscriber, but that was the idea.

[–]mgrier123¡Estoy muy furioso! 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

That was actually created to counter /r/LeftWithSharpEdge iirc but that sub has since been banned.

[–]Prince_Kropotkin¡Hasta la victoria siempre! 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (1子コメント)

No, LWoE came first. LWSE was just to stalk us.

[–]mgrier123¡Estoy muy furioso! 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ahh ok, then ignore me.

[–]fdelta1(((✡️ Saturn Worshipping Gangster Mafia Bankers ✡️))) 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

/r/shittankiessay

Not too active but super entertaining.

[–]KomradeKapitalist [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

/r/communism is more news based, if you want something more serious, and they hate rsoc.

[–]altrocksI love the half-popped kernels most of all [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Most of the socialists on Reddit don't like /r/socialism. SLS even banned submissions from there for a while because it was considered low hanging fruit.

[–]starkillerrx"Let them fight." 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (2子コメント)

"What does a random capitalist dictatorship in South America have to do with socialism?"

God those people are fucking delusional.

[–]TristanJeremiahGoogle Übersetzer ist absolut effizient, Mann 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

[–]ncrted 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I mean its already a massive echo-chamber, so it won't make that much of a difference, it will just make it more similar to the "Podemos" subreddit. On another note, this is now the second sub I'm banned from! Good thing, the_cheeto was getting a bit lonely being the only name in my banned list

[–]AtheismTooStronk 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Try /r/hillaryforprison

Post that one of the initial reasons they gave for the Comey firing was that he was too hard on her. Another easy addition to your list.

[–]TheFatMistakeviciously anti-free speech 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (16子コメント)

Lmao I think I've just read the funniest argument I've ever seen on Reddit

https://np.reddit.com/r/CapitalismVSocialism/comments/6bxgka/rsocialism_has_a_discussion_on_venezuela_and_bans/dhqbayp?context=2

Read the first chain till the end!

[–]Atimo3Your meme is dank and you should feel dank[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (15子コメント)

That seems like two people wanting to have two completely separated discussions.

[–]TheFatMistakeviciously anti-free speech 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (14子コメント)

Rymdkommunist made a claim that people from /r/vzla are upper middle class. The other guy called him out for assuming that simply because they don't agree with him. Rymdkommunist denies he assumed anything over and over again and the other guy just keeps quoting him word for word where he assumed /r/vzla is upper middle class.

Edit crap, I let out the context. The first comment is important for the chain.

[–]Atimo3Your meme is dank and you should feel dank[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (13子コメント)

Rymdkommunist is saying that people from /r/vzla are upper middle class.

The other guy is talking in vague terms about "anyone who is against socialism must be either a reactionary or a capitalist"

Rymdkommunist thinks he is being accused of saying that anybody who disagree with him is upper middle class, which he didn't, he said that people from the subreddit /r/vzla are upper middle class, which is almost certainly correct as they are English speaking people with Internet access.

Neither side seems to actually grasp what the other is saying.

[–]misko91wut [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Neither side seems to actually grasp what the other is saying.

Sounds like literally every argument I've ever had.

[–]goonch_fish 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'll just throw in this link to r/neoliberal's take on all this, because god dammit if they aren't my favorite subreddit right now.

An infinite number of socialists with an infinite number of keyboards typing random words will eventually create an economic system that works.

[–]lebron181 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

The irony is that they are trying to rebrand neoliberal when it already has a definition.

[–]SnakeEater14I Moderate /r/SnakeEater14! [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah but that's the fun part

[–]Atimo3Your meme is dank and you should feel dank[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Do a bunch of people shitposting in Reddit think they can make neoliberal mean anything other than trickle down reaganomics? Maybe they can, 4chan turned Pepe into a political symbol.

[–]explohddo your own research numbnuts [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

OP, here's a link to the oldest archive of the r/Socialism post. It does confirm they will ban those from r/vzla.

[–]sakebomb69 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

God forbid anyone suffering under a regime even tenuously associated with socialism be allowed to tell the ignorant something contrary to their narrow world view!

[–]Forseti5Popcorn for the people! 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Funny how advocates of socialism never want to hear from those pesky people who have had to actually live under those regimes.

[–]Steel_Wool_Sponge [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'm subbed to /r/socialism but this is the first I'm hearing about the thread, so I hope it's OK if I comment here.

Really, all I'm gonna do is leave this fairly long selection of quotes from veteran NYT reporter Stephen Kinzer's All the Shah's Men, a book about the overthrow of Iran's democratically elected prime minister Mohammad Mossadegh. This has direct bearing on the situation in Venezuela and on the subreddit drama at hand. I'm touch-typing so there will be some typos. Please do read the whole thing before you make up your mind.

In 1953 the United States was still new to Iran. Many Iranians thought of Americans as friends, supporters of the fragile democracy they had spent half a century trying to build. It was Britain, not the United States, that they demonized as the colonialist oppressor that exploited them.

Since the early years of the twentieth century a British company, owned mainly by the British government, had enjoyed a fantastically lucrative monopoly on the production and sale of Iranian oil. The wealth that flowed from beneath Iran's soil played a decisive role in maintaining Britain at the pinnacle of world power while most Iranians lived in poverty. Iranians chaged bitterly under this injustice. Finally, in 1951, they turned to Mossadegh, who more than any other political leader personified their anger at the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (AIOC). He pledge to throw the company out of Iran, reclaim the country's vast petroleum reserves, and free Iran from subjection to foreign power.

Prime Minister Mossadegh carried out his pledges with single-minded zeal. To the ecstatic cheers of his people, he nationalized Anglo-Iranian, the most profitable British business in the world. Soon afterword, Iranians took control of the company's giant refinery at Abadan on the Persion Gulf.

That sent Iran into patriotic ecstasy and made Mossadegh a national hero. It also outraged the British, who indignantly accused Mossadegh of stealing their property. They first demanded the Wrold Court and the United Nations punish him, then sent warships to the Persian Gulf, and finally imposed a crushign embargo that devastated Iran's economy. Despite this campagn, many Iranians were thrilled with Mossadegh's boldness. So were anticolonial leaders across Asia and Africa.

Mossadegh was utterly unmoved by Britain's compagin against him. [...] For a time the British considered launching an armed invasion to retake the oil fields and refinery, but they dropped the idea after President Harry Truman refused his support. Only two options remained: leave Mossadegh in power or organize a coup to depose him. Prime Minister Churchill, a proud product of the imperial tradition, had no trouble deciding for the coup.

[...] Mossadegh learned of their plotting, and in October 1952 he ordered the British embassy shut. [...] No one was left to stage the coup.

Immediately, the British asked President Truman for help. Truman, however, sympathized viscerally with nationalist movements like the one Mossadegh led. He had nothing but contempt for old-style imperialists like those who ran Anglo-Iranian. [...]

The American attitude toward a possible coup in Iran changed radically after Dwight Eisenhower was elected president in November 1952. Within days of the election, a senior agent of the Secret Intelligence Service, Christopher Montague Woodhouse, came to Washington for meetings with top CIA and State Department officials. Woodhouse shrewdly decided not to make the traditional British argument, which was that Mossadegh must go because he had nationalized British property. That argument did not arouse much passion in Washington. Woodhouse knew what would.

"Not wishing to be accused of trying to use the Americans to pull British chestnuts out of the fire," he wrote later, "I decided to emphasize the Communist threat to Iran rather than the need to recover control of the oil industry."

[...] The Dulles brothers believed there was a serious danger that [Iran] would soon fall to communism. [...] When the British presented their proposal to overthrow Mossadegh and replace him with a reliably pro-Western prime minister, they were immediately interested.

[...]

Decades of British intrigue in Iran, coupled with more recent work by the CIA gave [Kermit Roosevelt, grandson to Teddy, and the CIA officer charged with orchestrating the coup] excellent assets on the ground. Among them were a handful of experienced and highly resourceful Iranian operatives who had spent years asembling a clandestine network of sympathetic politicians, military officers, clergymen, newspaper editors, and street gang leaders. The CIA was paying these operatives tens of thousands of dollars per month, and they earned every cent. During the spring and summer of 1953, not a day passed without at least one CIA-subsidized mullah, news commentator, or politician denouncing Prime Minister Mossadegh. The prime minister, who had great respect for the sanctity of free press, refused to suppress this campaign.

[...]

The plan for Operation Ajax [i.e., the coup] envisioned an intense psychological campaign against Prime Minister Mossadegh, which the CIA had already launched, followed by an announcement that the Shah had dismissed him from the office. Mobs and military units whose leaders were on the CIA payroll would crush any attempt by Mossadegh to resist. Then it would be announced that the Shah had chosen General Fazlollah Zahedi, a retired military officer who had received more than $100,000 from the CIA, as Iran's new prime minister.

By the beginning of August, Tehran was afire. Mobs working for the CIA staged anti-Mossadegh protests, marching through the streets carrying portraits of the Shah and chanting royalist slogans. Foreign agents bribed members of parliament and anyone else who might be helpful in the forthcoming coup attempt.

Press attacks on Mossadegh reached new levels of virulence. Articles accused him not just of ocmmunist leaning and designs on the throne, but also of Jewish parentage and even secrety sympathy for the British Although Mossadegh did not know it, most of these tirades were either inspired by the CIA or written by CIA propagandists in WAshington. One of the propagandists, Richard Cottam, estimated that four-fifths of the newspapers in Tehran were under CIA influence.

"Any article that I would write -- it gave you something of a sense of power -- would appear almost instantly, the next day, int eh Iranian press," Cottam recalled years later. "They were designed to show Mossadegh as a Communist collaborator and as a fanatic."

[...]

[Days before the coup attempt] a CIA report on the coup makes clear:

At this time the psychological campagin against Mossadegh was reaching its climax. The controllable press was going all out against Mossadegh, while [DELETED] under station direction was printing material which the station considered to be helpful. CIA agents gave serious attention to alarming the religious leaders at Tehran by issuing black propaganda in the name of the [Communist] Tudeh party, threatening these leaders with savage punishment if they opposed Mossadegh. Threatening phone calls were also made to them, in the name of Tudeh, and one of several sham bombings of the houses of these leaders was carried out. [...]

Now look: none of that proves anything about the situation in Venezuela. It also omits an equally important history of Westerners apologizing for actual human rights abuses during the same era.

...But it does show that people are absolutely right to be skeptical of supposedly "neutral" domestic observers (especially those on a sub as self-selecting as Venezuela's subreddit -- how representative do you think your own local sub is of the people who actually live there? Now imagine that distortion magnified by the national/cultural border), especially in a country that has had as complex a relationship with ours as Venezuela.