上位 200 件のコメント表示する 500

[–]Incognanusible 651 ポイント652 ポイント  (45子コメント)

Why stop there?

Why not go one step further and apply this to all political points of view including Libertarianism?

[–]shifty_new_user 210 ポイント211 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Political ideologies make good vectors but terrible endpoints.

[–]AnArzonist 102 ポイント103 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Political [I]deologies make good vectors but terrible endpoints.

Fixed that for you.

[–]spac3milf 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I love this comment. It's true with so many things. Humility, aggression, honesty.

[–]iamsooldithurts 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The more I ponder this statement, the more I wish I could upvote your entire existence.

[–]Dinosauruslol 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (2子コメント)

No, Donny, these men are nihilists.

Say what you want about the tenants of national socialism, Dude. At least its an ethos.

[–]banannatimee 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is called "Centrist" and it is a more accurate term for this viewpoint.

[–]WonkyTelescope 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

God damn bingo. How about we stop being ideological all together and have inclemental evidence based policy!

[–]Devoidarex 134 ポイント135 ポイント  (21子コメント)

Libertarianism isn't a political point of view, it's a fantasy, just like Anarchy, actual Socialism or any other idealistic political model.

They are philosophical exercises that are fun to think about but that don't work in practice.

[–]BEGA500 57 ポイント58 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I am confused as to why you draw the line there. Libertarianism and Socialism are philosophical but Conservative and Liberal arent? Why?

Its not like Conservative or Liberal have ever succeeded fully either. If we have never had a fully conservative government or a fully liberal government why aren they just idealistic models too?

[–]Saikou0taku 49 ポイント50 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Why?

My guess is that these two policies are the closest to being implemented, are represented by one of the two major parties, and regularly make their way into the news and modern life. Currently, it is assumed that Liberal=Democrat and Conservative=Republican. Socialists usually end up voting Democrat, and Libertarians usually end up voting Republican. As a result, Conservative and Liberal become "policy" (or at the very least, make it to the debate floor) while Libertarian and Socialist remain as ideas implemented by Conservatives and Liberals (look at Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders)

[–]donthate92 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That seems like a fair analysis. Have my upvote

[–]Tasadar 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Libertarianism and socialism have definitions while conservative and liberal are vague wishy washy terms. Conservative means something different in Canada vs the US vs Israel vs China, as does liberal. Socialism (in the hardline sense) means society owns and distributes the wealth (rather than specific people being richer or poorer than others) and libertarianism is that you are not bound at all by society. Both are relatively naive.

[–]johker216 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Libertarianism certainly does not have a definition. Libertarianism has been around for over 200 years and I'm sure the definition you're applying is the flavor created in the past 40 years by disaffected Republicans.

[–]TotesMessenger 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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[–]I_dig_fe 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's the most depressingly true statement I've heard in a long time. Nothing works, and it never will.

[–]iamsooldithurts 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you've gotten very confused.

Political points of view are, in fact, philosophical fantasies. And they work just fine until exigent circumstances dictate otherwise. Cf American Revolution, French Revolution, et alia.

Reality is what it is, and it is what you make of it, until the two collide like a shin and coffee table in a dark living room. And even then...

Only pragmatists concern themselves with bringing ideology in line with physical reality; even then, that's just another ideology, not unlike flat-earthers arguing with actual science.

[–]number_kruncher 1333 ポイント1334 ポイント  (77子コメント)

[–]SilvioRazzz 322 ポイント323 ポイント  (17子コメント)

"DID YOU KNOW?"

Everyone knows. And millions of people use it as an excuse to engage in lazy false equivalence ("Both sides are bad!"), refuse to think any further on it, and then refuse to vote or engage in politics because, "you know, man, the whole system is corrupt.*

Okay, great. So are you going to overthrow the system with a revolution? Work within the system to improve it? Making real improvements is hard. Discussing possible improvements is at least interesting. Making banal observations is boring.

[–]number_kruncher 43 ポイント44 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Couldn't agree more. I also hate when people, rather than tell you why their ideas are right, tell you why everyone else's are wrong. I noticed this on every political sub and it's so lazy. If you want me to vote democrat, for example, telling me how bad Trump is rather than how right you think democrats are isn't going to convince me. Happens here with socialism a lot, too

[–]ObiWanJakobe 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's not really libertarian though.. Thats just laziness and ignorance.

[–]I_PISS_FIRE 210 ポイント211 ポイント  (31子コメント)

Seriously, condescension is a good way to keep people from taking us seriously.

[–]Trainzack 42 ポイント43 ポイント  (3子コメント)

[–]xkcd_transcriber 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Image

Mobile

Title: Atheists

Title-text: 'But you're using that same tactic to try to feel superior to me, too!' 'Sorry, that accusation expires after one use per conversation.'

Comic Explanation

Stats: This comic has been referenced 1701 times, representing 1.0765% of referenced xkcds.


xkcd.com | xkcd sub | Problems/Bugs? | Statistics | Stop Replying | Delete

[–]FuhrerVonZephyrdemocratic party 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I was just about to post something like that. Sad I was beaten to it already, but hey, that's what I get for being a lazy liberal.

Or something.

[–]number_kruncher 149 ポイント150 ポイント  (9子コメント)

The nonstop memes are doing that just fine

[–]cakeisneat 117 ポイント118 ポイント  (3子コメント)

or just the principle of libertarianism.

[–]awesomefutureperfect 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's dangerously close to violating the NAP fucko!

Don't mind those other guys. Their lawn clippings blew onto my porch.

[–]constantvariables 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah this is why no one takes libertarians seriously. Not memes or being condescending, simply the ideology.

[–]FalseCapeMinarchist who voted Trump 67 ポイント68 ポイント  (12子コメント)

Also the fact that OP and many others probably couldn't name a single criticism of the libertarian party because they are such free thinkers. Libertarians have a huge double standard, holier-than-thou mentality when it comes to party politics.

[–]claytakephotos 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Eh, I think that's something you'll find in every hive mind. This sub has at least been the most respectful to discuss ideology in. And, in my experience, I've found many libertarians disagree on many issues - both within the core ideology & its application.

[–]NeedHelpWithExcel 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (2子コメント)

The mods in this sub are great, half the users are "taxation is theft, don't take my guns" lunatics who don't follow any libertarian ideals other than "taxation is theft, don't take my guns"

[–]applebottomdude 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Libertarians do tend to be very religious like in their "belief system" rather than just following evidence.

[–]ChipsfrischOriental 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Looking at reality makes me not take market libertarians seriously.

[–]Naggers123 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

So it's Liberal or Conservative OR 'thinking for yourself' aka Libertarian?

It's still a fucking side by the fact it's posted here.

[–]yesnomaybeidonotknow 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you don't agree with me you're just not thinking for yourself

[–]DoomGiggles 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Jesus Christ this sub seems to constantly struggle with this kind of shit.

[–]Wooshbar 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ya if there is anything I have learned from my libertarian friends on Facebook is they are never happy and they have the answer to everything. Always up for arguing about how everyone else is wrong. Really need to block them

[–]Trulyvanillanames 46 ポイント47 ポイント  (9子コメント)

If not pretending 'my side' is perfect means that I'm edgy, I'll wear a fucking fedora.

[–]Mikeydoes 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Why do we have to pick a side, why can't we just go with the best evidence and plan accordingly, adjusting on the fly.

[–]claytakephotos 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because fuck you, this is American politics. That's why.

[–]matts2Mixed systems 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've tried that here. I believe in mixed systems. Not pure markets, not pure socialism, not pure federal or state. Not simply the finding the best tool for the job but recognizing that having multilayer solutions is itself more stable. Doesn't have the ideological purity for this or the progressive subs I frequent.

[–]applebottomdude 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Amazing how hard it is to get that across. https://youtu.be/u6mDhW0WvUE

Fuck your ideas, show me the evidence in reality. Smart people have good ideas that don't work all the time. Don't turn politics into a religion please.

[–]rarrar 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Your politics only matter if they result in a vote, and candidates are almost universally associated with a side.

[–]BEGA500 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What do you guys think is worse, wearing a fedora or killing 15 people?

-Chelsea Perretti

[–]cortex112get government out of my wallet and bedroom 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

[–]catullus48108 546 ポイント547 ポイント  (170子コメント)

If I post anything critical about Trump, I am guaranteed to get a you lost the election message. If I criticize a dem, I belong in t_d.

[–]LongEZE 260 ポイント261 ポイント  (56子コメント)

This. So much this, it's aggravating. Everyone I know who is a Trump supporter thinks I'm some soft lefty and every liberal friend I have views me as a Fascist.

[–]hombredeoso92 128 ポイント129 ポイント  (24子コメント)

Even more infuriating when you live in Scotland and the person you're arguing with assumes you voted for Trump/Clinton.

[–]Netheral 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (2子コメント)

My favourite is when you actually mention that you dislike both, and then 9 times out of 10 the person will resort to shitting on Bernie.

[–]TechiesOrFeed 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The sad truth is Bernie is a pretty bad politician and many of his views are really flawed and obviously aimed at reddit's demographic but compared to the alternatives he's like a fucking diamond shining from a pile of shit so now everyone worships him

[–]dracofiredong 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (12子コメント)

This election made me see the world as being fundamentally divided into Trump or Clinton supporters. Crazy how this election fucked with my perspective.

[–]JohnQAnon 59 ポイント60 ポイント  (5子コメント)

You spend waaay too much time on reddit. Go outside.

[–]Augustus_Caesar1 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Which is weird considering they are like the two most hated candidates ever. People still haven't figured most people hate both of them. A vote doesn't mean you like, support, or agree with anything in regards to the candidate. Its just a vote. Its your most fundamental civic duty and you have limited options.

[–]alexthelyon 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's okay to think that they are both corrupt and unfit for presidency but the polarization of the political system in the US has made each side make labels and vilification commonplace so you get roasted by both.

[–]FreeSpeechWarriorvoluntaryist 43 ポイント44 ポイント  (16子コメント)

How long have you been a libertarian? This has been going on for decades.

People are so heavily indoctrinated into viewing everything as a battle between left vs right that they can't tell up from down.

[–]IAMA_Drunk_Armadillogeolibertarian 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is fairly new to me and it's incredibly tiring.

[–]uebermorgan 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Why has it been going on for decades, though? What's changing now? Genuinely curious for some perspective here; I'm young. 2016 was my first into politics and I found libertarianism very quick, so why shouldn't more people?

[–]FreeSpeechWarriorvoluntaryist 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (5子コメント)

The internet has been a godsend for the libertarian movement. How did you first find libertarianism?

On TV/Print all political discussions get boiled down to Left vs Right so it's all anyone knows when they try to argue a point.

So if you call out something their party of choice is wrong on, and they know they are wrong on it; the standard fall back is "But what about your team?"

That's when you blow their mind and point out that not everyone buys into the bullshit.

[–]uebermorgan 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Guess that shows my age; can't imagine life without the internet 🤔

Have you ever heard of Robin Koerner? He's got a wonderful book that described the strict left/right paradigm in the US and that's when it first struck me that indoctrination is not just an abstract concept

[–]ElvisIsReal 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Robin Koerner is great. He basically mirrored my transformation from Democrat to libertarian-leaning independent.

[–]Rcmacc 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I mean I did the same, but kind of on accident. I'm probably younger than you, but it seems like most of my friends and the people I know are either libertarian right or libertarian left, even if they don't want to admit it. If people took a minute to actually look back at each party I think most people would fall towards the libertarian party, but everything is so "us vs them" that'll never happen.

[–]LiberalTerryN 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

A significant number of people also transition into something that actually results in voting consistently for one of the two major parties. I was a self-identified libertarian from my first election in 2000 till around 2008, and still have a ton of libertarian tendencies, but I pretty much identify as a Democrat today. I haven't voted for an independent or third party candidate for federal office since 2004, because I fell into the whole "Duverger's Law means I should choose the best (or least shitty) candidate who has a realistic chance of winning" camp.

I'm open to changing my mind, but for now it looks like I'll be voting Democrat for federal office. Local and state issues don't map well onto the national parties, though, so I'm​ persuadable on those races.

[–]LongEZE 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Years. I first started leaning libertarian toward the end of college and started hearing it then. As the years have gone on, a decade later, I still hear the same thing.

[–]theblade009 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think you will find a new wave of libertarians that converted "because" of this election. I woke up and took a look at what everyone stood for and said like hmm I've always been more in the camp with these guys so I'll just side step the battle and be over here.

[–]FreeSpeechWarriorvoluntaryist 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I sure hope so. If nothing else it's very refreshing to see the internet mad at government again.

I feel like the current political environment will forge many libertarians.

[–]anon_e_mous9669 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sounds like you must be doing something right then. . . :-)

[–]acemandoomANTICOM/ANTISOC 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you think that's bad, imagine what it's like to be some one who leans in one direction but not religiously. I actually have friends that are okay with people just saying 'i hate it all', but god help you if you live between any where between those 3 points.

[–]rarrar 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Did you just make a massive generalization about how people generalize about you?

[–]LongEZE 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No I didn't. If I generalized I wouldn't be talking about people whom I directly interact with. A generalization would have been "Everyone I know who is a Trump supporter thinks I'm a soft lefty and every liberal friend I have views me as a Fascist."

[–]ATXBeermaker 89 ポイント90 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Yet somehow it's okay to insinuate that anyone who isn't libertarian is not "thinking for themselves."

[–]IAMA_Drunk_Armadillogeolibertarian 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (6子コメント)

It's just frustrating to be told in other subs that since I'm liberal I should always vote for democrats. God forbid I be allowed to support a candidate that is willing to end the war on drugs or is open to exploring UBI and tax alternatives. But fuck me right?

[–]ATXBeermaker 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's just frustrating to be told in other subs that since I'm liberal I should always vote for democrats.

I've honestly never seen this happen. Sure, there is the hivemind circle-jerking that goes on. But more often than not what I see in the comment threads is the opposite of what you're saying.

[–]IAMA_Drunk_Armadillogeolibertarian 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

[–]killyourself_ 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well technically until the Libertarian party has a foothold in the presidential race, they aren't that wrong. Assuming you would rather have a more liberal presidential candidate win. The libertarian party first needs to acquire seats in Congress and on the state level. As long as the U.S is a two party system, those people have a point.

[–]antonivs 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (2子コメント)

But fuck me right?

Yes, because here's the thing: your opinion is irrelevant unless you can align it with enough other people to get some of the things you want.

Politics is compromise - they're virtually synonyms. Politics starts happening as soon as two people with even slightly different opinions have to agree on something. Now scale that up to the 320+ million people in the US, and things get difficult, to say the least.

So you have to decide between being pragmatic, and getting some of the things you want, or being idealistic, and probably getting almost none of the things you want. Most people opt for some version of the former.

[–]___jamil___ 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (3子コメント)

If I criticize a dem, I belong in t_d.

meh.. it depends on how you criticize. it's not like bernie supporters have been wholly supportive of dems or the dnc

[–]Burgdorf 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (37子コメント)

I share the same frustration. It's like... can't we all agree that trump and clinton were bad. All of us got duped by the government. We shouldn't be getting mad at each other (not yet anyway) we should be getting mad at the government first.

[–]ginjaninja623 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (16子コメント)

Yes they were both bad, but not even close to equal. We've all been duped, but not to the same extent. If I cut someone off in traffic, and he crashes both our cars to spite me, we didn't both just have road rage and should forget about our differences.

If we don't actually attempt to learn WHY it is that each candidate was bad, including the exact reasons, including how they were both bad in very different ways, then our politics will not heal.

I thought we learned after Jimmy Carter that an outsider to the presidency was a bad idea. I thought after bush we learned that intelligence was important to shield a president from bad advice. I thought we learned after Nixon the dangers of thinking a crooked president could work "for you".

We somehow managed to get the worst of everything- a man who repeatedly lies, who doesn't understand the issues, who needs his briefings condensed to under a page of bullets, who repeatedly has cozied up to and complimented autocrats, and who promised the American people everything while being utterly incapable and unwilling to take the steps necessary to even begin to fullfill their expectations.

And do you know why? Because the people fucked up. The People are responsible for the government, and until the People become more educated, less temperamental, more understanding, less apathetic, less hateful, and more willing to question their own views and the views of their "side", the government will never change.

Trump voters are responsible for everything he does. If we don't get mad at Trump voters to some extent, they won't figure out just how badly they fucked up. I'm not gonna treat adults with kid gloves.

[–]catullus48108 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have no idea why anyone would think a New York construction business owner was anything except utterly corrupt. Did they not pay attention to history?

[–]Burgdorf 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Trump is worse by far.

I'm only saying that we would likely be talking about how clinton voters fucked up right now had she won. The system is polluted, both sides need to realize that we are continually given the illusion of choice.

Out of two tyrants the less evil one might seem better. But its obviously still a tyrant.

[–]Honey_Badgerette 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes! Agreed! I'm shocked at how people are acting after this election. Neither candidate was worthy to be POTUS. We should have far better options than Clinton/Trump. We should be collectively angry about these shitty options.

[–]Literally_A_Shill 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't forget to be angry with the terrible third party candidate choices as well.

[–]dope_cheez 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (12子コメント)

Because Trump supporters are insane and refuse to admit a single bad about him. People who voted for Clinton mainly did so because they didn't want Trump, not because they particularly liked Hillary.

[–]jeremiahs_bullfroggreen libertarian 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (17子コメント)

Exactly. When I post in other subreddits (e.g. /r/politics or /r/worldnews), criticising or defending one party/candidate, I get lots of posts about negatives of the other party/candidate, which I agree with.

I've found that I have to criticise/defend both parties/candidates in order to not get a bunch of posts about the other. It's really quite annoying that such an assumption exists.

[–]themachine0leave-me-the-fuck-alone. 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (16子コメント)

I stopped going to /r/politics because its basically /r/democrats again. I want to see stuff besides trump.

[–]acemandoomANTICOM/ANTISOC 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I've only been on reddit for 2ish years, and in the entire time that was the case. Was it different before?

[–]themachine0leave-me-the-fuck-alone. 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (2子コメント)

No. Reddit is almost completely left based people, it just gets annoying when you're trying to have a reasonable argument with someone and not get called hitler.

[–]Rcmacc 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

/r/neutralpolitics is honestly the best for this, because they mandate you have sources or you'll get called out for the BS your trying to pull

[–]Hammedic 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed. When I venture over to the "popular" tab, often hard left subs are in the top 5. Always an orgy of circle-jerking on every drop of anti-Trump news.

Walk into those subs with a whiff of moderation or a slight hint that you're not being caustically critical, and you're downvoted into the ground. The mere suggestion that not every Trump voter is a hateful racist is met with comments of people absolutely certain that every Trump voter is "a dumb fucking racist".

Meanwhile, t_d is banned from showing up on the popular tab because it's hateful and full of circlejerking. Because hypocrisy.

Reddit is very biased. We can carve out niches of independent thought, but it's largely not friendly to libertarianism or liberty minded politics.

[–]BuntRuntCunt 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I remember when /r/politics was all in for Ron Paul way way back in the 2008 primary campaign. He had some support in 2012 but for the most part people on reddit wanted to stick with Obama. Paul was like Sanders back in 2008, he was going to be the savior of the system and had fanatical support.

[–]Puffy_Ghost 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

A lot of people who supported Sanders are more than happy to criticize the democrats...because they deserve it.

[–]Varron 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I made a post in some Anti-Trump Sub (Can we quit making those, we have plenty I promise) about some Topic about how badly the Republicans have screwed up, and I agreed and at the very end of my little rant, I put in a piece about how badly the Democrats screwed up and that we all should stop seeing and saying blue and red, and actually think for ourselves and not give any power to either side which are little more than power hungry politicians...

I was quickly labeled a t_d fanatic and downvoted, because I disavowed their side too and put in the red camp even though the entirety of my post minus a sentence was about bashing the red side.

[–]onlystanthatmatters 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (11子コメント)

This is gonna come off snarky, and I'm admittedly not a libertarian, but it's almost like you guys should have your own subreddit where you can share libertarian views and ideas.

Instead of, ya know, memes and complaints about everybody else.

I usually like coming here for alternative perspectives on news and ideas, but I do have to say, you all have been whining a LOT more often than usual lately.

[–]dracofiredong 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is where whiny hipster types go for hip new perspective. Didn't you hear that it's not cool to be Republican or Democrat anymore?

[–]themachine0leave-me-the-fuck-alone. 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (6子コメント)

But in the general /r/politics we should be able to express our ideas with the same respect that we show others.

[–]MrUs 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yup, and if it's not the Republicans voting him to the front page it's the Dems.

[–]PM-ME-YOUR-DOGPICS 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I massively disagree with libertarianism (love the personal freedoms though), but I have a shitload of respect for this sub for allowing completely open discussion. Fuck r/t_d, fuck r/lsc, fuck the echochambers, bunch of pansies.

[–]CivilityBeDamned 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

One of the last things you submitted was a failed list of talking points from T_D about why the Muslim ban wasn't so bad.

[–]AhFreshAir 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Seriously. I'm not really a libertarian (although I support personal freedoms 100%), but center-left and both sides are driving me crazy right now. The insane baseless conspiracy theories/lies, the gross overreactions to minor events, the assumptions that if you hold an opposing view then you must obviously be a shill to try and minimize your points- it's all just sickening. The level of the rhetoric on the specialized political subs is insane! I'm sure Obama isn't too popular here, but he used to constantly warn about hyper-partisanship in his speeches.

Think for yourselves. Don't base your political identity completely around some political party's entire platform- go through issue by issue and decide on your own. Our thoughts about candidates have to go beyond an (R) or a (D).

Although, I must admit in the spirit of being pragmatic; when the general election comes down to 2 candidates after the primaries: many of us are left with a tough choice. Will we vote for the candidate who we may dislike but more closely aligns with our values than the other? You can vote for your ideal candidate still, but it feels like dropping your ballet into the void. I kind of wish we'd adopt a different election process, maybe one with multiple rounds like the French but using electoral vote majorities instead of their popular vote method for elimination?

[–]cynoclast 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So frustrating. On reddit critique of anything negative directed at Trump is conflated with being a supporter of his, even though I've never supported him. Meanwhile any moderate view point expressed on voat is conflated with me being a full blown SJW, despite being a huge fan of /v/SJWHate.

Meanwhile I'm just a slightly left leaning moderately libertarian dude.

[–]Silentwes 161 ポイント162 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Thinking for yourself = defining your opinions with memes you found on the internet. Ok bud.

[–]ashishduhh1 53 ポイント54 ポイント  (0子コメント)

lol srsly. Every other libertarian post is about libertarians pretending to be more enlightened than everyone else. wow such original critical thinking!

[–]iamsooldithurts 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

The thing that bothers me isn't the meme.

Rather, it's posting the meme here, as if libertarians own the patent on thinking for yourself. Which, in my experience, they don't.

For example, I have yet to meet a Libertarian who isn't a free market capitalist.

And frankly, as I sort of grew up an actual Anarchist, I find modern day Libertarianism to be a reprehensible bastardization of the concept.

[–]GloveSlapBaby 39 ポイント40 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is tribalism at its finest. Neither myself nor any of my friends are completely on one side of the spectrum, but life is so much simpler when things are treated as binary, so people default to the 'us vs them' mode. Myself included. It's terrible.

[–]Marutar 67 ポイント68 ポイント  (2子コメント)

This is just useless and derogatory; it doesn't endear anyone to Libertarian ideas.

Top post of /r/libertarian is an absolute shit-post, that offers no insight or discussion into Libertarian concepts, what a surprise. This sub sounds more and more like /r/THE_DONALD, full of self-serving rhetoric and zero critical thinking.

[–]dayoldhansolo 112 ポイント113 ポイント  (45子コメント)

It's weird that gender is a spectrum now but political views aren't.

[–]SaxManSteve 64 ポイント65 ポイント  (23子コメント)

That's mainly a US phenomenon. In Europe and most other countries, there is a vast spectrum of political parties as well as established yet diverse political positions. The US would really benefit from a proportional voting system eliminating the two-party first-past the post system.

[–]tchoobLibertarian Socialist 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yep! Our voting system incentivizes that over time, it will always come down to two parties going back and forth. We cannot change this by getting a third party in office, we need to restructure the way we vote entirely.

If you're at all interested in why it is this way, or how other voting systems would work, CGP Grey has an excellent short series called "Politics in the Animal Kingdom" that is specifically about this subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo&list=PL7679C7ACE93A5638

[–]Xujhan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You know how they say time heals all wounds?

They lie. That video still makes me as mad as the day it was posted.

[–]caribou16 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Yep. Or that if you believe in conservative or liberal belief A you must agree with the entire party platform. No exceptions.

[–]shawn77 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Perez did say that you can't be a democrat if you're pro-life. He actually said 'it's nonnegotiable.'

[–]DoloPingu 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Are all you people this pretentious?

[–]mgraunk 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, but unfortunately a large and vocal minority are.

[–]Zarainna 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The important thing is you found a way to feel superior to both.

[–]PotatoJamzX138 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Think for yourself"

"ok now think like us"

[–]60DollarGrams 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

LOL I didn't stop being a conservative or liberal retard just so I could be a libertarian retard.

[–]ultimatefighting 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Yup.

You dislike Bush for the wars, the increased spending, expanding the size of government, the TSA, the DHS, the unPatriot Act, watch lists, warrant-less spying, indefinite detentions, etc., and youre a Democrat and or a terrorist sympathizer.

You dislike Obama for the same reasons and now youre a Republican and or a racist...

[–]ashishduhh1 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Actually most of us Trump supporters agree with everything you just said. I'm pretty sure no one was calling me a "democrat or a terrorist sympathizer" when I called out Jeb and W.

[–]dsnarez 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not surprised to hear a Trump supporter say that. I begrudgingly voted for Hillary despite believing she would be more hawkish than Trump. Not impressed so far with Trump's foreign policy so far however...

[–]STATIC_TYPE_IS_LIFE 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Lol an actual trump supporter. So cute 😊😊

[–]dope_cheez 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

So why don't you call out Trump for his own bullshit?

[–]applebottomdude 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

1/2 of trump supporters were tea partyers which was the exact opposite of what trumplets preach today.

[–]Jeveran 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (10子コメント)

I agree. Too many people seem stuck in the idea of "if you're not with us, you're against us."

[–]ATXBeermaker 63 ポイント64 ポイント  (5子コメント)

But this post is basically "if you're not with us, then you're a sheep who isn't thinking critically." I don't think that's any better.

[–]pawnbrojoe 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

It isn't saying Libertarian is the only way. You shouldn't expect everyone to completely agree with either party platform. We have 300 million Americans and only 2 parties. People should have their own opinions. If it contradicts your party's platform that's fine.

[–]ATXBeermaker 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (2子コメント)

It isn't saying Libertarian is the only way.

That's a fair point. However, it does say that if you do happen to identify as a liberal or conservative then you must not be thinking for yourself, which is absurd.

[–]YoungOnion 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yea it's interesting to get into a debate with a lefty and the immediate assumption is that I support Trump. Why can't I just disagree with you? Both parties are so pro big gov now it's like that's the only option and they can't fathom that someone may not want that.

[–]engles_all_the_way 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's irritating. I'm a democratic socialist with some idealist leanings towards revolutionary communism. I know my views are fairly 'out there' compared to mainstream politics.

However, my job is in adult education, so I get to engage people from all sides of the spectrum on a daily basis. I love it, it makes me reconsider my views regularly and gives me the opportunity to challenge the views of others. I've met very few people along the way who I couldn't find some common ground with. I've also met very few people who I couldn't imagine fighting against in the right circumstances.

Let your guard down once in a while and enjoy being wrong as much as you enjoy being right.

[–]YoungOnion 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm a democratic socialist with some idealist leanings towards revolutionary communism. I know my views are fairly 'out there' compared to mainstream politics.

I don't know man, I think the train is headed that direction. It's certainly moving away from libertarian ideas. But I agree 100% with the rest of your comment.

[–]SentrySappinMahSpyFilthy Statist 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"I heard a Ron Paul speech and now I know he was right all along" is not the same thing as "thinking for yourself." :-P

[–]juicyjensen 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

For what it's worth just general independent is an option. You don't have to belong to Any party or combined philosophy but your own.

[–]klaq 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Did you know it's possible to vote Republican and then claim it's not your fault when they fuck up because you're "Libertarian?"

[–]kjvlv 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It is possible but as we see from current events, both sides turn against you and employ the 4th estate to destroy you.

[–]JCaesar42 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's also possible to disagree with Libertarians!

[–]avatarmicro 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Did you know -

You can be be a liberal, or a conservative, and still be thinking for yourself! Try it out!

[–]dbx99 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But I also hate libertarians so much.

[–]PlaySkoolCivics 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Disagreeing with someone based on their political ideology, rather than the logic of what they're saying = "thinking for yourself".

This might be the dumbest shit I've ever seen on this sub.

[–]always_in_debt 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (6子コメント)

if i dont like dems or repubs, i dont think full government overlords or uncheck capitalism is a good thing. what am i?

[–]DEMASTAA 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Congratulations you're a moderate. Unfortunately, you won't be welcome in any political subreddit, including this one

[–]Galle_ 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think you might have a home in /r/neoliberal, although be prepared to have literally everyone hate you.

[–]derek_g_S 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (22子コメント)

politics is a team sport....and according to most (well the loudest) folks, theres only 2 teams.

[–]lakija 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's pretty much the best way I've seen political parties described.

[–]Biceptual 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (8子コメント)

I highly disagree. With team sports, if my team makes a mistake, I criticize my team. In today's politics, it's all about pointing out what the other guy is doing wrong and making excuses for your guy. It's very bizarre.

[–]dean815socialist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

if my team makes a mistake, I criticize my team

have to say it seems like you're in the minority there

[–]ashishduhh1 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Uhhh, what? How many Falcons fans do you know that blamed their failure on the Patriots?

[–]dean815socialist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I know plenty of Falcons fans who blamed their failure on the overtime rules. Fans constantly blame refs, cheating, etc on losses too.

[–]RAColt45 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (11子コメント)

I think it's cause deep down, the liberals have painted themselves as defenders of morality and justice against evil conservatives. I've spent a lot of time around these people who genuinely think this is a battle of good and evil. They're so afraid that they can't accept that their way isn't the right one and if you don't agree with them then you must be evil too.

[–]Galle_ 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Well, I mean, let's be honest. This kind of is a battle of good versus evil. The differences between libertarians, neoliberals, and social democrats pale in comparison to the differences between all three of those and fascism.

[–]HistoriaPopulusque 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Libertarians, Neoliberals, Conservatives, and Social Democrats are all varieties of Liberalism.

All of them believe in universal human rights and freedom. Where they disagree is how to balance between rights and freedom.

Fascists, White Nationalists, Christian Fundamentalists, etc., all reject Liberalism. They believe that only their group deserves rights and freedom, and all other groups should have their rights and freedom restricted or abolished completely.

The Republican Party is dangerous because they've been hijacked by an alliance of Christian Fundamentalists and Objectivist billionaires.

[–]Galle_ 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nah, that was during the last administration. The Christian fundamentalists and Objectivists have been shoved out of power by the Fascists.

You're right, though. This is fundamentally a conflict of authoritarianism, represented by the Republican Party, against classical liberalism and its many descendants, represented by everyone else (but especially the Democrats).

[–]RAColt45 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not saying the conservatives aren't wrong too. To me they seem so disconnected from society that they're still living in 60's. They paint liberals as children who don't know what they're talking about and that's not true. I can't say as much about them though as liberals because I haven't spent time around them. I guess my point is that both sides have gotten so good at demonizing the other that it's become an ideological war.

[–]Galle_ 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's a fair point. I'm just saying that it's not "one highly specific ideology versus another equally specific ideology". It's the far right versus everyone else.

[–]Bayerrc 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Soo, you can disagree with being open to change and new ideas and you can also disagree with wanting things to stay the same? Wtf does a libertarian think then?

[–]mandark3434 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wish everybody knew that just because you label yourself a liberal or a conservative doesn't mean you don't think for yourself and anyone who insinuates otherwise is an asshole.

[–]jlevnhv 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's also possible to hold a nuanced position but still vote for a major party. I dislike virtually everything about Republicans. I dislike many things about Democrats, but agree with many of their policies, so I tend to vote for them.

I don't have to agree with every single position of a politician to support them and think, "Well as least this particularly fucking asshole isn't gonna close down every abortion clinic in the state."

[–]Houdiniman111 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with what this post is saying, but it is falsely implying that if you agree with either the liberals or conservatives, you aren't thinking for youself.

[–]leothesilent 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Did you know it's possible to not completely agree with your party and still be a member

[–]uykey 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe... those people are thinking for themselves. And they just disagree with you. It's almost like people who hold different opinions from you still have a brain or something.

[–]Panory 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

it's entirely possible to disagree with BOTH liberals and conservatives

Not if you want to win elections.

[–]Super_Mecha_Gamps 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah it's called Edgy Centrism

[–]Drunk_King_RobertI read Kropotkin but we can still be friends :D 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks grandma

[–]Zanctmao 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Then why do you guys always vote Republican?. Hmm...I disagree with Democrats on economics and Republicans on social issues...so....I'll vote Republican. WTF libertarians, WTF?

[–]Vzier 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

implying that Libertarians anything but extremist conservatives Yikes

[–]TheyAreAllTakennn 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Honestly, if you subscribe 100% to any political party, be it democratic, republican, or libertarian, I'm just going to assume you know crap about the actual policy.

I don't know how banhappy this sub is, but I gotta point out this is also pretty ironic considering it's implying that by subscribing entirely to one party, you're thinking for yourself by not subscribing entirely to one other party.

[–]scottevil110 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I am so close to unsubscribing from this sub for a second time. Y'all please stop upvoting stupid shit like this.

[–]ejmart96 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (17子コメント)

Group think is the worst part of our society. I believe in climate change, but I also vehemently oppose the "99% of scientists" garbage. Either an idea stands on its own merit or it doesn't. I don't care how many people believe it.

[–]jeremiahs_bullfroggreen libertarian 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I believe in climate change

The best part is that you don't have to believe it. Climate change is happening, it's a provable fact, and the only point left to discuss is whether it'll cause problems and what we can or should do about it.

[–]ElvisIsReal 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Exactly. I can believe that climate change is happening and still not believe the best answer is to give the government more money and more power.

[–]jeremiahs_bullfroggreen libertarian 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I like to try to focus the conversation on the actual problem and explore various solutions to fix it. Democrats and Republicans use government to fix problems, but in different ways, but nobody seems to want to entertain the idea of solving it in a less intrusive way.

People want results immediately, and many libertarian solutions to problems take time to really work. I personally believe that problems that took a long time to develop (e.g. climate change) can and should be solved with solutions that take time to work (e.g. end subsidies and let the market work things out).

I happen to also believe that some amount of government involvement can be good, provided it doesn't expand government power very much. For example, I believe a carbon tax, if restricted to funding energy research and limited in growth (i.e. lock it to inflation), can be helpful in adding back in the long-term pollution costs. However, I think a carbon tax should be a last resort (e.g. simplify other taxes first, such as funding all road construction with a tax based on usage, like mileage at vehicle registration).

[–]ATXBeermaker 37 ポイント38 ポイント  (9子コメント)

but I also vehemently oppose the "99% of scientists" garbage. Either an idea stands on its own merit or it doesn't.

You realize that scientific consensus (i.e., "99% of scientists") is what gives scientific ideas merit, right?

[–]Octoplatypusycatfish 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (3子コメント)

"But legitimacy isn't subjective" "Sociology is bullshit" "Harvard? Might as well have linked to Marx University" /S (all real quotes I've encountered here)

Most these guys aren't the cream of the crop.

[–]alhamjaradeeksa 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Harvard = Marx University? LOOOOOOL. That is some hilarious shit.

[–]anillereagle 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But they're not me, so how do I know they're right??? /s

[–]NothingIsMyFault 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My problem is the "Let's pass X, Y, Z legislation and if you disagree then you disagree with 99% of scientists". 99% of scientists didn't vet your plan for how to deal with climate change.

[–]hombredeoso92 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is ringing very true with me at the moment because I just got called a "quisling dope" because I criticised a left wing concept even though I'm a liberal.

[–]EndlessBuffoonery 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Did you know you can disagree with liberals, conservatives AND libertarians. And if you disagree with libertarians, you'll be right more often than not?

Today you learned!

[–]BaSkA_friedmanite 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Liberals do not acknowledge other ways of thinking.

Conservatives think others are usually stupid.

Libertarians just want people to do whatever the fuck they want, as long as they don't commit violence.

I wonder why so many people are amongst the first two.

[–]DEMASTAA 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"My party is great and the other two are bad" Man, someone really didn't get the point of this

[–]joshg8 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Libertarians think life is a competition and society is overrated.

I can make straw-men, too.