全 16 件のコメント

[–]TychoCelchuuupolitical phil. 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We'd never have gotten the chance to read your brilliant polemic here, which would be a real shame.

[–]wokeupabughistory of philosophy 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So, I think I know what the negative consequences would be if Nietzche were wiped out. Almost all the great works of 20th century literature would disappear too, as a direct result. No Ulysses, no Hemingway. Film noir would probably never have existed.

It seems strange that you recognize the significance like that of someone like Nietzsche on fields like literature, and yet you're dismissive of Foucault, who is read pervasively across the humanities and social sciences--he's a good candidate for the most influential figures in late 20th century culture. You seem to acknowledge this later on in the post, but in dismissive tones. But if the difference here is that you like the influence Nietzsche has had on the humanities whereas you dislike the influence Foucault has had, that this is a rather different matter than the question of whether Foucault has had significant influence.

Another problem is how broad a brush you're painting with: it seems like you have more in mind the nebulous "postmodernism" of political rabble rousing than the actual historical productions of the figures you get name-dropped in this context. For instance, Lacan is often name-dropped here as an infamously suspicious French thinker, but he was a psychiatrist, not a philosopher or "theorist", his involvement with anything reasonably called postmodernism is somewhere between null and deeply contentious (features like the continuing influence of structuralism and the centrality of the subject to his thought buckle with the usual commitments of postmodernism), and a lot of in the infamous developments associated with post-modernism took off particularly as anti-Lacanian (e.g. Deleuze and Guatarri). As a psychiatrist, his work continues to be one of the central influences on, for example, psychosocial interventions in psychosis. One never hears anything about this in the popular scandal about "postmodernism", which seems to have little to do with such business as historical realities.

Besides these sorts of considerations, the concern here seems to be articulated on the premise that postmodernism references some arbitrary inventions of this or that philosopher. But when Lyotard described the incredulity toward metanarratives--the only gold standard we have for a philosophical view we can confidently call "postmodern"--he wasn't inventing something, he was observing something. We are incredulous toward metanarratives: this is a pervasive and deeply consequential feature of our culture. And this isn't Lyotard's fault! If Lyotard never existed, and neither did anyone else bother to talk about how we're incredulous toward metanarratives (although this is a common feature in post 1950s intellectual culture, so to reasonably enact this stipulation we're going to wipe most of the 1950s cultural slate clean), there's no reason to think we'd be any less incredulous toward metanarratives than we are now--we just wouldn't be thinking about it. And given how consequential this incredulity is, surely that would be a dire shame.

This consideration raises the further point: the pretense of the rabble rousing surrounding "postmodernism" seems to be that there's something astonishing about it, as if the rest of culture was carrying on just fine and then these whacky postmodernists turned up with their whacky ideas. But just about everything characteristically associated with the French philosophers people think of as postmodernists is (i) a more self-conscious articulation of themes already developed in modernism rather than a sudden imposition of something foreign onto the cultural scene, and (ii) has analogs in analytic philosophy, literature, and so on. E.g., why are people scandalized by the supposed irrationalism when Derrida says that signifiers don't stand in one-to-one relationship with a signified but rather their signifying role is dispersed across the language and the expressive acts constituting or enacting it, but applaud the epistemological acuity and scientific-minded naturalism of a Quinean who says that meaning is holistic rather than atomistic? Derrida isn't imposing an arbitrary invention on us here, he's working out in a self-conscious way one of the consequences of how we've been speaking about knowledge and language, and in a way which is very much in the air at the time of his writing. Erase Derrida from history and you'd still have a bunch of other people talking about this, so that presumably someone else would have taken his place as a particularly influential source for these ideas. But again, one rarely hears any reference to this sort of technical detail from the relevant philosophy in the popular polemics about postmodernism, which seem to be carried out in a scene with rather different interests.

[–]lacunaheadjurisprudence, critical theory, ethics 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (9子コメント)

At least one misguided thing about this line of inquiry involves the assumption that the value of a philosophical project is totally self-contained. But a philosopher provides value as an interlocutor who forces you to present the best possible justification for your position, even if you ultimately disagree with them. Sometimes the primary value of a philosophical position is the response it elicits from those seeking to avoid its conclusions. See, for example, skepticism.

One thing thankfully absent from your hypothetical world would be this question.

[–]qytrew 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

One thing thankfully absent from your hypothetical world would be this question.

Wow, whatta prick!

[–]lacunaheadjurisprudence, critical theory, ethics 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't worry, my response wouldn't be here either.

[–]czerdec[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, I had the temerity to displease him with my witless babbling, you know I deserved it. To even be considered worthy of his sneer is a great privilege. Maybe one day he will be generous enough to spit on me.

[–]czerdec[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

involves the assumption that the value of a philosophical project is totally self-contained.

That doesn't ring true to me, and I think I'm reasonably good at knowing what my own assumptions are, if I may be so arrogant.

Would you like to go into depth about how you reached that conclusion about my assumptions?

Am I being unfair to assume that you are effectively saying "I can't think of anything in particular that's widely accepted as good that can easily be attributed to them"?

I'm not even sure they're worthless as thinkers. But unless someone can demonstrate some wider beneficial impact their work has had, outside the academy, I think it's reasonable to say the heavy emphasis on their preferred type of reasoning is perhaps disproportionate to their worth (inasmuch as greater societal benefit is a proxy for measuring such worth).

[–]lacunaheadjurisprudence, critical theory, ethics 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Would you like to go into depth about how you reached that conclusion about my assumptions?

You argued something like: the worth of postmodernist thought depends on its consequences. But you conceived of the relationship as involving a quite direct causal chain: postmodernist thought -> consequences in the "real world." But what if postmodernist thought, in e.g. the challenge it presented to a naive rationalism, forced the development of a more sophisticated rationalism which in turn led to superior consequences in the "real world"? Let's stipulate that whatever this sophisticated rationalism involves, it's in conflict with postmodernist thought. Then, postmodernist thought in some sense produced the good consequences in the "real world" by forcing the refinement of a doctrine antithetical to it, sophisticated rationalism. You didn't consider this possibility, which is a problem with your account of the "real world" consequences of philosophical positions.

Am I being unfair to assume that you are effectively saying "I can't think of anything in particular that's widely accepted as good that can easily be attributed to them"?

I'm not a sociologist or historian so I can't speak to the "practical" impact of thought classifiable as postmodern. My point was rather: if you accept that some academic thought has beneficial "practical" impact, and that such thought itself developed in relationship with postmodern thought, then postmodern thought itself had beneficial "practical" impact via aiding the development that other thought. But I'm agnostic as to the actual "practical" impact of any academic thought because I don't have the relevant expertise.

I'm not even sure they're worthless as thinkers. But unless someone can demonstrate some wider beneficial impact their work has had, outside the academy, I think it's reasonable to say the heavy emphasis on their preferred type of reasoning is perhaps disproportionate to their worth (inasmuch as greater societal benefit is a proxy for measuring such worth).

It would behoove you to make some specific argument as to why their reasoning itself doesn't have worth, as opposed to using "greater societal benefit [as] a proxy for measuring such worth." Otherwise everything turns on the concept of "greater societal benefit," which in turn hinges on what we ought find socially beneficial, which depends on the sort of normative philosophical position we adopt, which will implicate the worth of postmodernist methodology in our quest for such a position. To assess the "wider beneficial impact their work has had," we need to assess their work proper.

An example of a paper which actually argues against postmodernist methods is Nicholas Shackel's The Vacuity of Postmodernist Methodology.

[–]czerdec[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

But what if postmodernist thought, in e.g. the challenge it presented to a naive rationalism, forced the development of a more sophisticated rationalism which in turn led to superior consequences in the "real world"?

So, even if I concede that that might be possible, you seem to admit that there's nothing concrete you can point to and say "I can make a good case that that is better because of the challenge of pomo".

[–]lacunaheadjurisprudence, critical theory, ethics 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Sure - I can't point to anything because it's beyond my expertise to track the historical development of an idea into something "concrete," because I'm not a historian of ideas.

[–]czerdec[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

So, are you implying that such a historian would be more likely to be able to point to something?

[–]lacunaheadjurisprudence, critical theory, ethics 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You'd have to ask them, maybe in /r/AskSocialScience or /r/AskHistorians.

[–]ippolit_belinski 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

For one, Foucault is of direct influence on prison reforms in south Italy. I would give some detail, but your dismissive tone does not warrant for you taking any of this seriously.

Also, Foucault was not a postmodernist and rejected that term, but how would you know that?

[–]czerdec[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

For one, Foucault is of direct influence on prison reforms in south Italy. I would give some detail, but your dismissive tone does not warrant for you taking any of this seriously.

Go on. I mean, are the reforms credited with having beneficial effects? That counts for me. I'm happy to credit them with something if there's reason to believe it's beneficial.

[–]Parivill501phil. religion, phil. science 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

[–]ptrlixPragmatism, philosophy of language 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

According to Tolstoy's understanding of history, pretty much nothing would change because great characters are the products of their environment, not vice versa. If Derrida and Foucault were killed, we'd have Merrida and Moucault.