It is now increasingly evident that a political transformation of cardinal proportions is taking place in Turkey.

Yup, Caliphate for real.

Ironic if the western oligarchs – by off-shoring their manufacturing base to places like Turkey and thus driving the move to the cities – have created a Frankenstein that will destroy them.

General Akin Ozturk who was arrested along with five other senior Turkish Generals for leading the failed military coup against president Erdogan on Friday – served as military attaché at Turkish embassy in Israel between 1996-1998.

“Clearly, the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad were directly involved in the planning, coordination, and execution of yesterday’s coup attempt. Just as they have been directly involved in all of Turkey’s military-staged coups over the past 40 years, this one fits the pattern perfectly. The disillusioned segments of Turkish society don’t have sufficient control or influence over the military to effectuate a successful coup; only the Western intelligence agencies have such power,” State of the Nation, July 16, 2016.

https://rehmat1.com/2016/07/18/leader-of-turkeys-failed-military-coup-served-in-israel/

That’s a massive exaggeration. The extent to which turkey and subsequently Turkish Islam differs from the Arab/African/South Asian Sunni form can’t be overstated. This article makes the case with polling data pretty well and articulates the point better than I can. If you still need convincing then go into Google or Yandex street view and look at Anatolia (the AKP heartlands are all included, eg. Elazaig) the number of hooded women is an absolute minority, similarly find YouTube clips of an Erdogan rally; about 50:50 there.

“Clearly, the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad were directly involved in the planning, coordination, and execution of yesterday’s coup attempt. ”

I find this hard to swallow. This “clearly” needs some additional decorations. Also, motives? And I mean real motives, not a “because reasons that I find these guys could find convenient”. And these reasons have to be massive enough to weight up against the dangers of failure, this not being Chile in the 80s.

Of course – truth is always hard to “swallow”.

I’m sure morons like you don’t believe that CIA and Mossad pulled the 9/11.

Last year, after, the UK’s David Cameron government announced the construction of a £50 million Holocaust Museum to please country’s Organized Jewry – the outspoken pro-Palestinian and pro-Iran Vicar of Christ Church in Virginia Waters (UK), Bishop Stephen Sizer, posted: “9-11/ Israel did it” on his Facebook page (see above). In order to expose western ‘freedom of speech’ double standard, he added: “Is this anti-Semitic? If so, no doubt I’ll be asked to remove it. It raises so many questions.” Bishop Sizer found the answer when his superiors at the Diocese of Guilford demanded that Sizer must remove the ‘political incorrect statement’ from his Facebook……

AK: You were asked to provide evidence, not infest the thread with your usual Single Issue Fanaticism (which is a rules violation). Do it again and you will be banned.

@AK: To put it mildly, Rehmat has never been a valuable asset to have in any comment thread.

Look here, fool, those were not “average citizens”; most of those were Erdogan-supporting Islamist fanatics, trained militants and thugs, many summoned directly from mosques – the Turkish-Islamist version of “brownshirts”. There was not a single female among them, which tells you how much “average citizens” they were – if they were average people, you’d have expected a significant proportion of them to be women. The overwhelming majority of the “average citizens” of Turkey (including virtually all of the 50+% of the population that opposes Erdogan and his AKP party) STAYED AT HOME during the coup attempt – due both to the coup spokesmen warning people on TV to stay home because a general curfew had been declared (a bad move, in retrospect, since it meant that the only people on the streets would be the hardened pro-Erdogan paramilitary fanatics prepared to disregard the warning, who could then be misrepresented to gullible outsiders as “ordinary civilians fighting to save democracy from a military coup”), and also to the fact that most “average citizens” are normal people accustomed to leading normal lives, i.e., not ready and willing to rush out into the streets at a moment’s notice, right into the midst of savage violence, to risk life and limb by getting shot, stabbed or beaten to a pulp.

Next time, try to understand your subject matter a little bit better, before you go opining about events in far-off lands which you know very little of. It will make you a better person, trust me.

Remember the August coup in 1991.

Is Erdogan donmeh? Seems rather light-skinned.

The evidence so far seems to indicate that the failed coup was carried out mostly by Gulenist cadres in the officers corps who were about to be purged by Erdogan.

Both Gulen and Erdogan are Islamists. There are no “secular” Islamists.

All “Islamists” are Muslims, by definition.

Thus trying to explain the failure of coup with Muslim birth rates isn’t just wrong, you missed the whole point.

Gülenists are elitist Islamists.
They do not have the support of the conservative Islamic masses who migrated to Istanbul and other cities and were essential for Erdogan’s victory.

That’s exactly why the rest of the EU doesn’t want them: they would have as much say as Germany, France, or Italy despite having a much weaker economy.

or for that matter in Russia (22%), for all the rhetoric about it becoming a theocracy.

Oh, look at that *censored*! A Russian emigre to America who studied democracy in Harvard and lives in the USA. No wonder any of his rhetoric about Russia is so utterly ridiculous. But I wonder for how long (Russian: “dokole!”) the right to speak for Russia will be given to such Harvard-brainwashed “democrats” who live in the States and who have nothing to do with Russia? Why don’t American MSM give the right to speak for America to the FSB Academy graduates who live in Moscow?

Now and again when I read something about Turkey I cannot help but see parallels with Russia:

The names of those allegedly involved reads like a Who’s Who of Turkey’s Russia’s ­government-linked oligarchy, whose firms have profited in recent years from the more than $100bn-worth of public contracts awarded by the AKP United Russia. Nepotism in the awarding of tenders has long been one of the most visible signs of corruption in Turkey Russia, and in the AKP’s United Russia’s years a coterie of construction firms has risen up around it.

Perfect!

the Turks have seen that even Greece could easily outsmart northern Europeans and make them pay money without getting anything back

What are you talking about?
Greece did not outsmart us.
We may have to write off a lot of money, but we are making sure that Greeks are punished for what they did.

In a good or bad way?

In a good way for Russia. As I said it many times before–the only thing which prevents Russia’s liberals from hanging by the neck from numerous lamp posts is Putin’s genuine 80+% support rating. In this regard Russia is a very stable country despite some noticeable economic difficulties but as they say–not by bread alone.

Thank you. That gives me a bit of light.

Georgian

: “I have never understood (believed) Erdogan’s desire for EU membership. Why would the man who would be Sultan want to take orders from Brussels?

He doesn’t want to TAKE orders FROM Brussels. He wants to GIVE orders TO Brussels, or more likely to Vienna. Turkey in the EU + NATO would dominate in short order, and mass conversions among formerly Christian nations would quickly follow. Notre Dame will be Hagia Maria mosque within 25 years, since the alternative to Christendom is not secular hedonism – it is Islam.

This article is wrong. The coup failed because the Obama Administration learned of it several hours before it was to start through human sources and intercepts and immediately informed Erdogan, giving him time to take counter-measures. Case closed, folks.

http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/2016/7/21/putin-erdogan-and-the-plot-against-the-rest-of-us

As the picture clarifies, it seems that the coup attempt was motivated by the emerging alliance between Turkey and Russia. The possibility that Turkey becomes integral to a peaceful resolution in Syria brings to an end NATO’s interventionist war against the Assad regime

no Golan Heights for you – bitch

http://previous.presstv.ir/photo/20130301/rahimi20130301064409737.jpg

He’s about average for eastern Turkey, western trends fairer-complexioned, see Omer Asik for example.

Not any more than the original Arab Caliphate. There was plenty of practicality , and impious debauchery, even in the early Umayyad dynasty, that is to say after Islam lost s republican roots and became hereditary. We know the afterlife is less appealing to an aristocracy enjoying the fruits of this world. So as we see time and time again , Islam can only be pacified by elite, central rule.

Not just Turks. Turks would import the entire Middle east.

Europe is a potential paradise for Islam specifically because it has non-Muslims. The luxury of an Islamic state comes from it Jizyah.

“Umar wore clothes with so many patches and mingled with his subjects on such free terms that when a stranger came to petition him he would find it difficult to recognize the Caliph. When many of his agents wrote that his fiscal reforms in favour of new converts would deplete the Treasury, he replied, “Glad would I be, by Allah, to see every body become Muslim so that thou and I would have to till the soil with our own hands to earn a living.”

That is to say Islam looses its tax and/or slave economic base when the entire host is Islam.

Islam destroys itself with perfect equality, just like socialism does. Thus Islam , quite like socialism must expand or die.

Turkey looks remarkably like Ukraine.

The Kurdish region looks like Donbass.

And both are part of tug-o-war between US and Russia.

Capitalism is a graduated aristocracy. Although it depends on the level of wealth preservation. In the ideal circumstance like ancient Athens , there was little in the way of forming natural monopolies. Sparta had good farmland and could point spears at the Helots. Such estates allowed for hereditary aristocracies. Eventually it was gold that sunk Athens, which in turn ,according to Aegis, finished off the Ephorate. Japan also followed the same pattern. Eventually the Yen became as good as gold. Still Japan is inherently better off in that the value is in its people, not the territory it occupies.

Yep. Islam unified the Arabs which really had no cultural contribution to any of their conquests. Everything they did was copied or borrowed. Although the Semitic peoples in Syria and Egypt probably were originally from Arabia. The Arabian peninsula is not a good place to do much more than survive after all. Such places are perfect incubators for creating racial differences which then migrated out into North Africa in particular.

he’s abetted

Wrong term and not directly related to Putin. Actually, Russian immigration situation, while not an easy one, is generally under control. Nothing like 1990s or early 2000s when it was basically uncontrolled. It is a very complex issue and it CAN NOT be separated from the Soviet legacy. Many of those Muslims are pretty much second iteration of Soviet Middle Asia citizens and very many of them do integrate quite well, know Russian and many not only become Russian citizens but actually call themselves Russians. I know this first-hand since my sister-in-law married Uzbek guy in 1985 and all her children are already Russian citizens, well-educated and wonderful humans. Love them dearly. Despite being nominally Muslim they are fairly secular, outgoing, hard working and are true benefit to Russian society. There are very many of those Muslims in Russia. It couldn’t have been otherwise–Russia is an enormous economic and political center of gravity. Are there problems with Muslims in Russia, yes, there are but it is a work in progress. This is my short opinion.

So you don’t think wealth was the primary motive for the Arabs’ conquests? Surely some of them were zealous evangelists, but not enough to fill entire armies IMO. They had some idea of the wealth of the neighboring empires due to trade and the close ties of the Ghassanids to the Romans and the Lakhmids to the Persians.

As I stated on a number of occasions: if you want to follow US main-stream media “interpretations”, be my guest. But until you recall that Northern Caucasus and Tatarstan together with Bashkortostan are predominantly Muslim areas, albeit with Tatars and Bashkirs being of a more “liberal”Hanafi madhab and that appearances of mosques there is natural occurrence any discussion of this issue becomes a moot point. Problems related to radicalization are a serious matter but again, I just returned from Russia and I communicated there with people who, how to put politely, understand the issue. Again, unlike in Germany or France Russia’s Muslim community knows damn well what can happen if they misbehave. But again, as I pointed before–I gave here a very short version. From the source you presented, I quote:

At the same time, Moskovsky Komsomolets continued, most people in the region speak Russian rather than other languages and most of the stores are “’secular’” rather than Muslim-oriented. That means, Roman Silantyev, a specialist on Islam notorious for his anti-MSD positions, that it is “premature” to speak about the formation of Muslim “quarters” in Moscow.

Hey Marcus,

Actually I am quite certain that many of the Arab (save the first generation), Persian, Turk conquests were motivated by wealth – they were often criticized by the Muslim scholars for it and many scholars were jailed and tortured for speaking up. You can see historically, the Tartars basically viewed Slavic people as a cash-cow (much like the Varangians did) to be raided for plunder and slaves – they didn’t spend much effort trying to spread Islam among them. I was contending that this had zero to do with the principles taught by the Prophet (pbuh) who neither lived by materialist pursuits nor encouraged them in his followers. You can see how the description of his first four caliphs are before the Umayyads take control – they lived materially abject lives even though they had conquered Persia, much of North Africa and a good amount of the Levant.
“A strong ruler, stern toward offenders, and himself ascetic to the point of harshness, he was universally respected for his justice and authority.”

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Umar-I

This is how TB Irving (not a fan of Islam) describes his parley with the priests of Jerusalem – I don’t agree with the factual basis of soem of Irving’s claims since they are not based on the strongest of reports, but even hostile writers admit things such as this :
“On his way to the camp Omar beheld a number of Arabs, who had thrown by the simple garb of their country, and arrayed themselves in the silken spoils of Syria. He saw the danger of this luxury and effeminacy, and ordered that they should be dragged with their faces in the dirt, and their silken garments torn from their backs.”
“The arrival of the Caliph was followed by immediate capitulation. When the deputies from Jerusalem were admitted to a parley, they were astonished to find this dreaded potentate a bald-headed man, simply clad, and seated on the ground in a tent of hair-cloth.”

Every pre-modern conquering army basically stated the following to a population they came across:
“Pay us taxes and submit politically or fight.”

The Muslims were the only ones (I can think of) that were supposed to offer a completely non-materialistic option as the first one – basically “become our brothers in faith and your wealth is prohibited to us”:
“When Muslim armies encountered non-Muslims outside the lands already under the rule of Islam, they were supposed to offer them the choice of conversion to Islam; payment of jizya and
acceptance of dhimmi status; or trying the fortunes of war.” – Michael Bonner – Jihad in Islamic History

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8280.html

Most did not live up to those ideals, thus is the world…

Peace.

Is flooding streets during Ramadan, disrupting traffic, good behavior? I’m sure they’re biased, but Russian nationalists I’ve spoken to deeply resent their government for its perceived leniency to the huge numbers of arrogant and often violent immigrants (while it cracks down on nationalists).

I’ve indeed read that Umar and Muhammad did not live extravagantly at all, I just find it hard to believe that many Arabs would have “signed up” for the early armies without some inkling of the vast rewards that could gained from richer neighbors, e.g.

Allah has promised you much booty that you will take [in the future] and has hastened for you this [victory] and withheld the hands of people from you – that it may be a sign for the believers and [that] He may guide you to a straight path

Not saying there’s anything wrong with that, the pattern is established throughout history: civilizations become fat and complacent and get plundered by poorer but more vigorous neighbors.

Is flooding streets during Ramadan, disrupting traffic, good behavior? I’m sure they’re biased, but Russian nationalists I’ve spoken to deeply resent their government

No, it is definitely not. Medvedev’s cabinet is the one who continues to promote “liberal” immigration policies. Why Putin doesn’t react to that–is totally different matter but “import” of Muslims from “near abroad” was promoted since the times Yeltsin. Again, today immigration policy is much tougher than it was before. Most importantly, unlike 1990s and early 2000s mass deportations are common occurrences. As I stated–it is not a problem which could be solved in one day and by President’s decree. Russia can not escape her geographic position and economic and social gravitational field she . In other words, Russia is bound by history to live with this neighborhood in some form of cooperation. What will be the emerging framework–it is all dynamic, that is changing, and we will have to see what level of tolerance will emerge–low or fairly high. But I will reiterate the point–very many of those Muslims are fully integrated. While in Moscow, which does have significant presence of Muslims I saw women dressed in traditional Muslim garb (faces open, though) maybe three or four times in 10 days. Just an anecdotal evidence of a fairly “liberal” version of Islam. Again, complex issue–not enough time and space to go very deep into it. It is not black and white. And then comes this small, purely professional issue–Russian special-intelligence services are on the several orders of magnitude more competent than their “Western” colleagues when dealing with Islamist threat. One of the major reasons for that is the fact that majority of Muslims in Russia have a very different outlook on this whole Jihad thing and do cooperate big time and do it very sincerely. In the end, comforts of Moscow, St. Petersburg or Kazan, among many, are too precious to waste for some dubious religious and ideological reasons.

One of my spiritual teachers (a Naqshbandi Mujaddidi) has many disciples in Moscow and the other Russian districts. Even has some spiritual deputies (that are authorized to guide others in tazkiya) there. Russia has come a long way in its treatment of Muslims (especially since the Communist times – what a horror). From what I’ve heard, it is not perfect, but they are treated well as long as nobody misbehaves. Of course there are skinhead types that harass people – but what’re you going to do, those kind of jerks are everywhere.

Peace.

Yes, even as an outsider I can recognize that many Russian nationalists do take an ahistorically manichaean view of the issue

Good observation.

There seems to be a lack of articulate spokesmen for more reasonable nationalists, maybe due to gov. crackdowns?

I don’t know. Recently all kinds of exotic people ranging from Prosvirnin to Strelkov and even Limonov tried to form some Committee–it didn’t last long with Limonov dropping out in a week or so and having such people as Strelkov in it doesn’t add much credence, anyway. Gov. had nothing to do with the implosion of this “nationalist” enterprise. Real Russian nationalism is more complex and it still does have this easily recognized Soviet element in it, with it comes a degree of internationalism.

Actually, Russian immigration situation, while not an easy one, is generally under control. Nothing like 1990s or early 2000s when it was basically uncontrolled. It is a very complex issue and it CAN NOT be separated from the Soviet legacy. Many of those Muslims are pretty much second iteration of Soviet Middle Asia citizens and very many of them do integrate quite well, know Russian and many not only become Russian citizens but actually call themselves Russians. I know this first-hand since my sister-in-law married Uzbek guy in 1985 and all her children are already Russian citizens, well-educated and wonderful humans. Love them dearly. Despite being nominally Muslim they are fairly secular, outgoing, hard working and are true benefit to Russian society. There are very many of those Muslims in Russia.

You don’t get it. The fact that central Asians can assimilate to Russian ways actually makes things *worse*, not better. These people are completely worthless from human capital point of view. They have no economical value. HBD consensus tells us that this won’t change. The successful assimilation will make sure that the process of importing millions of immigrants from Earth’s HBD garbage dumb will not stop.

It seems that inviting hordes of worthless migrants from former colonies (as well as countries that used to in the “sphere of influence”) is how the remnants of old empires choose to die. UK and Pakistan, France and northern Africa, Germany and Turkey, Russia and the -stan shitholes. Eventually the Uzbeks and other central Asians will become the same cancerous presence as blacks are in the United States or the inhabitants of french no-go zones. Arguably, this already happened in Moskovskaya Oblast’… I heard stories.

Things got so bad that I’m actually relieved to hear that the economy is not doing so well — after all, this means that at least some of the migrants will go back home; and for a while I won’t feel like a stranger in a city I was born in. How did the kremlinoids managed to fuck things up so badly that I have to cheer for bad economy? I bet when future historians (a 100 years from now) will study the current events they will fail to notice any substantial differences between the politics or ideology of Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin.

Hey Marcus,

Intention is a big deal. The first hadith taught in all traditional hadith studies (East to West) is:
“Actions are but by intention and every man shall have but that which he intended. Thus he whose migration was for God and His messenger, his migration was for God and His messenger, and he whose migration was to achieve some worldly benefit or to take some woman in marriage, his migration was for that for which he migrated.” ~ Related by Bukhari and Muslim

No doubt many normal Bedioun wanted both loot as well as a chance at a getting a nubile Levantine concubine to warm their beds. But it is clear to me (through both Muslim and academic non-Muslim sources) that the leadership and core/elite of the first generation was not materially motivated for the following reasons:
1) You just don’t see it in their personal life – there is no amassing of thousands of slaves or opulent clothing as in the later generations. Their aphorisms constantly remind about the need for asceticism.
2) By the third caliph, Uthman (ra) the territory is enormous, beyond any Arab dream (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman#/media/File:Mohammad_adil_rais-rashidun_empire-at-its_peak.PNG), yet the capital is kept at Madinah. I have come across no evidence which shows massive amounts of wealth being brought into Madinah (or Mecca) and squandered on making it a lavish center of a huge empire. they remain mostly mud-brick desert townships until the Ottomans finally pay some attention to prettying them up. Caliph Ali (ra) moves it to a newly founded city of Kufa, which is also not fancy. The Umayyads immediately established themselves (not even in Jerusalem, but) in Damascus, a magnificent capital.
3) The mechanics of the way spoils works; a normal soldier only gets a chance at spoils and slaves if the encountered population decides to go to war, which is the last of the three options provided. The first two options grant him nothing more than his normal remuneration – both jizya and zakat go into the public coffers. A soldier could march from the Hijaz all the way to the edge of Gibraltar and come home with nothing beyond his normal pension (and actually many of the earliest soldiers financed their own provisions – before the state bureaucracy of Persia and Byzantium were absorbed).

Though even the state of the normal foot soldier was alluded to in the famous letter from Khalid bin Walid (ra) to the Persian leadership:
“To the Governers of Persia,
Embrace Islam so that you may be safe. If not, make a covenant of protection with me and pay jizyah. Otherwise, I have brought you a people who love death just as you love drinking wine.”

Now, that may have had a rhetorical edge to it to convince the Persians not to put up a fight, but, if the Battle of Qadissiyah is any evidence, then my suspicion is he was being straight forward.

Compare this to the exhortations to his men by Tariq ibn Ziyad (ra) – he glorifies God of course, but the rest is a great speech, but much like something from Braveheart:
“In the attack I myself will be in the fore, where the chance of life is always least…You have heard that in this country there are a large number of ravishingly beautiful Greek maidens, their graceful forms are draped in sumptuous gowns on which gleam pearls, coral, and purest gold, and they live in the palaces of royal kings. The Commander of True Believers, Alwalid, son of Abdalmelik, has chosen you for this attack from among all his Arab warriors; and he promises that you shall become his comrades and shall hold the rank of kings in this country.”

http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/711Tarik1.asp

Peace.

Thanks, I’ll have to read up on the subject again, “The Great Arab Conquests,” is a solid book IIRC. I think that the Arab conquests would’ve happened in some form with or without Islam, but they wouldn’t have been as widespread or had the same lasting impact without it. The Arabs were an incredibly hardy warrior people who could strike at anywhere on the desert periphery: an area the Romans and the Persians had to rely on unreliable auxiliaries to defend. What made them so much more potent after Muhammad was the loyalty that they felt to the Caliph’s office; Khalid bin al-Walid meekly obeyed when recalled from campaigning: it’s hard to imagine an Arab warrior doing that for a mere tribal chieftain.

I met a Syrian American recently who was born in the US to Syrian immigrant parents

Sounds like a Westerner indoctrinated through Western media to me. It happens.

So pervasive is the Western MSM the children of immigrants become true believers of the BS shoveled in their face.

Regardless of that I’ve heard Iraqi Arabs (and one bonafide Iraqi Kurd who fought in the Iran-Iraq war for Saddam) bitch and whine about Hussein up until his death. Then I heard:

“He was a head of state, the least they could have done is shown him respect. They didn’t have to hang him like some thief or spy. He kept stability. He had his faults but….[blah blah blah]”

Hate must be trendy or something. Assad will probably go through the same thing, like Qaddafi. Everyone hated him… until they didn’t.

Thanks for that reference – it is not one I have come across. I am also interested in reading this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Great-Arab-Conquests-Spread-Changed/dp/0306817403

As far as Khalid ibn Walid (ra) – from the material perspective, it doesn’t make sense (Arabs were notoriously rebellious beyond their own tribe) though he was his cousin – it does make sense if some one has been trained to erase their ego.
“O you who believe! Obey God, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Messenger, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day; that is best, and most suitable for final determination.” 4:59

Likewise, the Prophet (pbuh) exhorted people to listen to their leader as long as it didn’t involve disobedience to God as reported in the Bukhari collection. It was only with this discipline that they were able to put their fighting potential into a hammer that could smash the collective armies of Byzantium, Persia and Rome (North Africa) – otherwise they would have splintered fairly quickly into tribal federations.

Peace.

{(including an apology, no less).}

Actually, there was no ‘apology’.
Turks themselves announced that it was not an apology.
People who know the Turkish language say the expression Erdogan used in his letter to Putin was roughly equivalent to “…let bygones, be bygones…..”

And the non-apology was to the families of the killed and murdered pilots, not to the Russian state.
Also, there was no compensation, as Putin had demanded after the shootdown for normalizing relations.

Nevertheless, for some reason or another Putin grabbed at the straw and folded.
He must have his reasons.

Things got so bad that I’m actually relieved to hear that the economy is not doing so well

Actually, it is not that simple, especially when you review Help Needed sections of Russian newspapers. Let me put it this way–a huge demand for people with actual industrial skills from CNC operators to G-Code programmers and Electronics specialists.

Yeah it’s very accessible, for more dense volumes there’s Byzantium and the Early Islamic Conquests https://www.amazon.com/dp/0521484553/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_3IRKxbBB9BJH2

Hey Smoothie,

Asking the wrong guy; I’m a Hanafi…in our school – the relied upon fatwa states – non-Muslims can even enter the sacred precincts and the sacred mosques of Makkah and Madinah:

http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2010/10/20/are-non-muslims-allowed-to-enter-mecca-and-the-sacred-mosque-haram/

You can ask the British why they helped kick out the staunchly Hanafi Ottomans and install the current Wahhabi state.

Peace.

Since Putin does not understand Turkish, the letter Putin read must have been one written in Russian, not the one written in Turkish you seem to know so much about.

{Since Putin does not understand Turkish, the letter Putin read must have been one written in Russian…..}

I don’t have any inside info of course, but it’s not like his staff handed him a Russian translation letter and Putin made his decision based on that. You just don’t do that for something that important. Moscow has excellent Turkologists and language experts since Soviet times. The language experts know all the nuanced meanings of a given foreign word.

My guess is that Putin team sat down, with a couple of KGB/FSB Turkish language experts and they parsed every word. And Erdogan had done the same, of course: write something – with team – that would potentially be acceptable to Putin, but stop well short of a formal apology.

Putin knew exactly what Erdogan had written, word for word.
But, like I said before, for reasons that are beyond my comprehension, Putin just grabbed onto what little Erdogan had thrown his way and ran with it.

Putin and his team are making more and more serious mistakes of late.

BS, Putin and his team make serious mistakes all the time.
Remember how US-expansion was supported by Russia or how the Georgian president who did later to attack Russian soldiers was accepted by Russia.

They did not get worse in the last years.

I agree completely…

You showed nothing that backs your claim that they are “getting more frequent and more egregious lately”.

Syria 2016 is barely an irreversible mistake like Libya 2011.

Holy shit. No need for the hostility. Try to not treat people like shit for not thinking exactly like you or not knowing what you think you know.

“You showed nothing that backs your claim that they are “getting more frequent and more egregious lately”

That’s because this is an online blog comments section, not a full-length current affairs article or a Wikipedia page; and I’m expecting you to be already CONVERSANT with things in recent history. If it will help your edification, though, here is a brief breakdown of serious mistakes, off the top of my head, just in the 2013-to-present-day period:

1. 2013 – Failure to anticipate or preempt the textbook U.S.-backed “color revolution” illegal Maidan coup in Russia’s crucial underbelly Ukraine, against a democratically elected leader friendly with Russia, on account of “being distracted by the Sochi Olympics” and taking eyes off the ball as the U.S. was preparing the coup. Then being “taken aback” and standing back doing nothing but wringing hands as the violent coup was happening, with Neo-Nazis and everything. Disastrous consequences still ongoing.

2. 2014-2015 – Failing to take over, or give adequate support to, the gravely endangered Russian sections of Eastern Ukraine and Donetsk; then “snatching truces out of the jaws of victory” every time they were close to actually winning on the battlefield – Debaltsevo, Mariupol etc., as A. Karlin said. Disaster still ongoing daily; final result unknown.

3. February 2016 – Forcing a halt to very successful Russo-Syrian military operations against U.S./Turkish/Saudi-backed jihadis, on the verge of a major victory – see my post above. Disaster still ongoing daily; final result unknown.

4. July 2016 – Helping the terror-supporting Islamist tyranny regime of Erdogan, an archenemy of Russia, Syria and Europe, survive a coup attempt (if they really did, that is); and starting a totally fake, silly “rapprochement” with it – on the ludicrous fantasy-based premise that Erdogan is an Ally Of Russia Now, who is Out Of The U.S. Orbit, and will become a member of Russia’s so-called Big Eurasian Axis. Outcome impossible to predict; but potentially devastatingly bad consequences, especially if Erdogan starts to pursue Neo-Ottoman aspirations in a seriously aggressive manner, or backstabs Russia again at a very inopportune moment.

“Syria 2016 is barely an irreversible mistake like Libya 2011.”

Libya 2011 was more a “mistake” of the Medvedev crew, than Putin per se. Also, the outcome of the Syria imbroglio is still unknown; and if it turns out to be a loss, it will be far worse than Libya 2011, since Syria is a much more important place than Libya.

Besides – 2011 is not so ancient that it can’t be called “lately”, is it?

I’m expecting you to be already CONVERSANT with things in recent history

Different people interpretate history differently.

1. 2013 – Failure to anticipate or preempt the textbook U.S.-backed “color revolution” illegal Maidan coup in Russia’s crucial underbelly Ukraine, against a democratically elected leader friendly with Russia, on account of “being distracted by the Sochi Olympics” and taking eyes off the ball as the U.S. was preparing the coup. Then being “taken aback” and standing back doing nothing but wringing hands as the violent coup was happening, with Neo-Nazis and everything.

Maidan coup was in 2014 and it was Yanuk’s job to prevent it.
There was not much Russia could do as long as Yanuk was undecisive.

2. 2014-2015 – Failing to take over, or give adequate support to, the gravely endangered Russian sections of Eastern Ukraine and Donetsk; then “snatching truces out of the jaws of victory” every time they were close to actually winning on the battlefield – Debaltsevo, Mariupol

Does only apply to Mariupol.
Debaltsevo was regained (yes, the UAF was quite weakened, but so was the NAF).
The Donbass rebels were preserved in 2014.
I am not happy with the outcome either and wish they would liberate the whole Donbass, but considering that it was not certain that they would save anything, I do not consider it that egregious.

3. February 2016 – Forcing a halt to very successful Russo-Syrian military operations against U.S./Turkish/Saudi-backed jihadis, on the verge of a major victory

There were major victories at that time, the re-establishment of the connection with the Shia enclaves in North Aleppo and cutting off the Syrian rebels in North Aleppo from the rest plus the end of most rebel-controlled Latakia.

4. July 2016 – Helping the terror-supporting Islamist tyranny regime of Erdogan, an archenemy of Russia, Syria and Europe, survive a coup attempt (if they really did, that is); and starting a totally fake, silly “rapprochement” with it – on the ludicrous fantasy-based premise that Erdogan is an Ally Of Russia Now, who is Out Of The U.S. Orbit, and will become a member of Russia’s so-called Big Eurasian Axis.

Do you understand that the alternative to Erdogan is Gülen, an international islamist who lives in the USA? It was a coup organized by his supporters.
One of the reasons why Russia intervened in Syria was the prevention of regime change.
Why would Russia want regime change in a major trade partner that did not join the Western sanctions? Unless the new government is less anti-Russian, there is nothing to win, but more to lose.

Outcome impossible to predict; but potentially devastatingly bad consequences, especially if Erdogan starts to pursue Neo-Ottoman aspirations in a seriously aggressive manner,

Erdogan is now busy purging Gülenists.
He has no time for Neo-Ottoman non-sense.
The Turkish Armed Forces are weakened, the Turkish economy too.
Western powers are getting less friendly. He won’t be a threat for a while.

Conservative Turks have traditional sex roles. So of course women aren’t out and about doing this sort of thing raising up children and all the usual feminine roles.

You will find this in any civilization in history. In a patriarchal society when revolts are staged they are done entirely by men.

Anything to do with politics are done purely by men in a patriarchal setting like the conservative Turks.

{Conservative Turks have traditional sex roles. So of course women aren’t out and about doing this sort of thing raising up children and all the usual feminine roles.}

Nonsense.
You are making things up out of thin air.

About half the Gezi protesters in 2013 were women.
There was a lot of violence: two dozen were killed, 1000s injured, 1000s arrested.

Here is one “traditional sex roles” woman lying, injured.

https://wittymisfitsinc.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/turkish-spring-turkish-citizens-protest-against-fascism-an-islamic-government-and-police-brutality/turkey-protest-photos-occupy-gezi-taksim-gezi-park-34/

Here is another “traditional sex roles” woman: the famous ‘lady in red’.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gezi_Park_protests#/media/File:2013_protests_in_Turkey_,_Woman_in_Red_image.jpeg

The coup initiated by a small section of the army was stopped because most of the army units, police force and intelligence services remained loyal to president Erdogan. Incompetence on the part of the putchists only made the supression of the coup easier. The role of the people on the street was more of a nuisance than a decisive factor.

Putin likewise prevented a full exploitation of Debaltsevo, and taking undefended Mariupol.

If so, why?

Thanks a lot for the patronization. But foolish positions and opinions need to be called out for what they are: Foolish. If you’re so thin-skinned that you can’t even take a light insult against your foolish statements in stride on a political blog dealing with very important current world affairs, then maybe you should be commenting on one of the “lifestyle” magazines – or better yet, on a school newspaper.

Turkish authorities have arrested more than 13,000 people believed to be tied to the coup attempt and have gutted the country’s civil services sector suspending over 60,000 educators, judges and police. “‘Why should I keep them and feed them in prisons for years to come?’ – that’s what the people say,” said Erdogan.

Not that it does look better than the Washington Post’s and New York Time’s average home page. As for the “what the people say”, it should open our eyes to what degenerate mud real democracy would be. We should ask (in a commanding tone, sure enough) the elite to be more decent, respectful, responsible to the population in its whole, and a bit selfless.
We should demand the James Traubs, including some large calibre ones, to be removed from their positions; and humble some.

Still, who wishes for “democracy” is someone who hates the humankind nearly as communists did.

Agree completely, El Dato. Use of the word “clearly” is a disinformation technique. (Perhaps I should say it is clearly a disinformation technique. . . .) It makes the entire post suspect.

In addition, I think any assumption that CIA, MI6 or Mossad must be behind this or any coup is quite ethnocentric. It implies that Turks aren’t capable of mounting a poorly planned, poorly executed failed coup all by themselves. What hubris.

Hey KC,

Great article – thanks! So the “masters of the universe” are playing chess with the lives of millions – what else is new…sigh…The one thing is that the involvement of the US may actually be bringing a level of sanity (I know this itself sounds insane) to the degree of escalation; bear in mind that the Saudis and Qataris are involved and they have some very advanced weapon systems in their inventory. They also do not have any inkling on restraint in this mess, it may only be US pressure keeping things like MANPADS out of the hands of the various militias and Daesh:
“He [commander of a US-backed militia) said he has hopes that Saudi Arabia and Qatar may tire with the U.S. ban on supplying MANPADS and break coalition ranks, but that the Gulf countries are not ready to flaunt the Americans.”

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Hi, off-topic, but the comment of yours I wanted to reply to is in a post where comments are closed:

my comment was rather tongue-in-cheek about an incident where AK very uncharacteristically lost his cool. It’s difficult to describe out of context, and there’s no way I can find it now

http://www.unz.com/akarlin/reader-poll-2016/#comment-1476826

Just FYI, you do an injustice to our host Ron Unz’s powerful search feature:

http://www.unz.com/?s=%22cucked+faggot%22&searchsubmit=Search&authors=anatoly-karlin&ptype=akarlin&commentsearch=only

But what I really wanted to say was that I regret the apparent result of AK’s poll: privileging long-form posts.

I usually like reading AK’s thoughts, but not when they are that long. Or I read the long ones only on occasion, when I am exceptionally interested in the topic he is discussing or the idea he is advancing.

(There was that amazing “open thread” article a while back that had at least a dozen fascinating (and short and unrelated) topics, but all glommed together in one indigestible article. Why the need to make such a long post? Does it seem more serious and weighty that way?)

So I’ll just say I’m one of the readers who wish AK would experiment more with brevity, and I bet many of us feel that way, poll notwithstanding.

Of course I may not be AK’s target. Even for short posts, I feel intrigued but a little out of my depth. The long posts are successful in eliminating me from the set of AK readers, and that may be the intended effect

acronym*

A neo con coup that failed. All the neo cons who supported the iraq war back on fox proclaiming support for this coup..

If erdogan goes it will give chance for isis to infiltrate turkey. Prefer erdogan 100000x over isis criminals.