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Repeal the Income Tax to abolish Slavery (fee.org)

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[–]Eurynom0s 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (14子コメント)

To me the worst is that with most countries, you can leave if you don't like it, but the US taxes you based on nationality not on residency. If that's not a claim by the government of ownership of its citizens, then what is?

Fun fact: Eritrea wanted to levy a 2% tax on its citizens around the world and the United States denounced them on the floor of the UN for wanting to extort their citizens. But when WE do it...

[–]Techsanlobo 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Can I play devils advocate for a second?

Unless you earn over $100k (and unless it is as a part of the US Military or a few other narrow circumstances), those earnings are exempt from US Federal Taxes. I have no stats to back this up, but I don't see that many people actually having to pay Fed income tax, and if they do, a significant amount of their income is exempt.

Additionally, if you live overseas, you inherently have the US Government on your side when dealing with the local country. I worked at an embassy for a few months as a liaison, and US Citizens were very regularly being helped by the Embassy for various matters dealing with the host nation's government. It is fair to say that they were consuming US Government services, and if you were to calculate the bill that the taxpayer paid for those services, that individual is getting a pretty good deal.

Of cource, you can avoid all of the taxes by walking to the nearest consulate or embassy to renounce your citizenship. because when you say

nationality not on residency

you should actually be saying citizenship not residency. Non-US Citizens do not pay taxes on earnings not made in the US.

ninja edit: By the way, if you find these taxes offensive, it is not like it is hard to evade them. Just choose the right host nation bank to stash your cash. They have no reason to report your earnings.

[–]Eurynom0s 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

The US charges you exit fees if you renounce. The exemption thing is also bullshit, other countries wouldn't make you file if you aren't living there, and do you think it's cheap or easy to find someone who can reconcile US and, say, Austrian taxes? The people within the exemption limit are the people for whom that's the biggest burden. Plus not all countries tax the same way we do so it's plenty possible that you still wind up owing the US taxes even if you're nominally within the exemption limit.

[–]Techsanlobo -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

https://www.gov.uk/tax-uk-income-live-abroad

UK taxes your foreign income. First Google result.

As for correctly filing your taxes, it was not really that big a problem for us. Took all of 1 hour to do.

[–]Eurynom0s 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

UK taxes your foreign income. First Google result.

LOL no, you didn't bother to read the title of your own link: "Tax on your UK income if you live abroad"

They're not talking about taxing your foreign-earned income if you live outside the UK, they're talking about taxing your UK-derived income if you live outside the UK. It's normal to tax your citizens' home-country-derived revenue while they live abroad, what's not normal is to say that they have to file taxes back home on their foreign-derived income if they live abroad full-time.

[–]Techsanlobo -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/residence

Sorry, I did misread it. In any case, they do have some tax status for abroad income if you are in the UK for some period of time during the year, which seems pretty normal for an expat. But your point stands.

I don't see the US exemption as unreasonable, however. The exit fee is excessive, though. I understand the old $400 fee, not the current $2k fee.

[–]theboyblue 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow that sucks. In Canada you only pay the difference. So if you live in canada but work in some US state with low income tax. You pay the difference. HOWEVER, if you don't own a residence in Canada and don't use the healthcare etc then you don't pay anything to Canada. It's a fair trade I think.

[–]lossyvibrations -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

You're free to renounce your US citizenship at any point and select another nation.

The US also exempts most of your taxes, and generally only charges you if wher you live has low taxes (essentially, charging you the difference.) Being a US citizen carries a lot of value, but as with all things in this world, vote with your dollar. If that citizenship is not valuable to you, pick another nation.

[–]Eurynom0s 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

The US charges you exit fees if you renounce. The exemption thing is also bullshit, other countries wouldn't make you file if you aren't living there, and do you think it's cheap or easy to find someone who can reconcile US and, say, Austrian taxes? The people within the exemption limit are the people for whom that's the biggest burden. Plus not all countries tax the same way we do so it's plenty possible that you still wind up owing the US taxes even if you're nominally within the exemption limit.

[–]lossyvibrations -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Those fees are only due if you are exporting wealth.

I've had friends making $30k a year become Canadian. The U.S. chaged them like a $50 processing fee but that was because they wanted copies of everything.

[–]Eurynom0s 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Most countries wouldn't put you in the situation of renouncing in the first place.

[–]lossyvibrations -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The U.S. Doesn't. Very few people pay taxes abroad. I've always been exempt, and I'm part of the professional class.

[–]cynical-man-is-here -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

If that's not a claim by the government of ownership of its citizens, then what is?

Actual slavery?

I'm seriously disgusted by how many people want to claim that they are slaves simply because they live in a society. Literally all of human history has been built on social organization where though some means and methods goods/services were collected under some form of leadership for communal needs. This basic fact doesn't make you a slave.

You people have absolutely no idea what slavery is and wanting to claim it as a label because you think it makes your argument more valid is sickening

[–]Eurynom0s 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

If I live full time in the UK and only earn UK-based income then why should I have to pay for American society when I'm not living in it? I'd be paying UK taxes, this isn't about getting out of ALL taxes EVERYWHERE. If a British person lives in the US and only has US-based income then they don't owe UK taxes since, you know, they live in American society not British society.

[–]cynical-man-is-here 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Being a US citizen has privileges as well as responsibilities, if you don't want to be a citizen then give it up. But you'll still have to accept the fact that as a human living in a society, as ALL HUMANS HAVE DONE SINCE THE DAWN OF TIME, you will be subject to rules you don't like.

That doesn't make you a slave

[–]StartUpTheRotors 47 ポイント48 ポイント  (45子コメント)

Ugh, the tax apologists in here. Go back to r/socialism

Let me say this clearly:

TAXATION IS THEFT AND SLAVERY

[–]NorthernLight_ 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (19子コメント)

The influx of socialists who think Libertarianism is another word for socialism is hilarious. It couldn't be more of an opposing view-- centralized government power with heavy taxes and government ownership of service and good providers are all the anti-thesis of libertarian ideas.

[–]skilliard7 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The influx of socialists who think Libertarianism is another word for socialism is hilarious.

They're here because:

A) They actually want to debate. Unlike socialist subreddits, we don't ban people for having the "wrong" opinion.

B) They believe in libertarians when it comes to social issues(keep government out of people's lives), but believe in forced taxation to reduce income inequality.

[–]mongoljungle 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

its not slavery, you don't have to pay tax if you shitpost on reddit all day and make no MONAY.

[–]IArentDavidGary "bake the fucking cake, jew" Johnson - /u/LeeGod 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Try again. The ACA tax is literally a tax on living. Even if you don't interact with anyone economically, you are still extorted.

[–]mongoljungle 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

try again, ACA is free for people with no income

[–]NoShit_94Somalian Warlord 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Except, you know, government will take your house for not paying the mafia's "protection fee" property taxes.

[–]mongoljungle 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

you need protection fee one way or another, might as well be a democratic government. Otherwise its gonna look like the europeans in native americaland

[–]NoShit_94Somalian Warlord 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Or... we could not have an institutionalized monopoly, how about that? You can keep your precious democratic government, just don't make me take part in it.

[–]mongoljungle 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

between you and me there are no rules. You are protected by yourself alone, without rules anything goes. Lets hope you have really big guns against big bad governments.

in addition to monopolies, you believe in the harm of monopolies. But through land ownership your basically created your own local monopoly. So when you said you hate monopolies, you mean you hate others having monopolies but fully want to retain the rights to establish your own monopolies. Can you be more of a hypocrite? Some monopolies are necessary by nature. Accept it.

[–]haqshenas 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

TAXATION IS THEFT AND SLAVERY

You are not convincing anyone but the ancaps with that argument. If you need to reach more people, you need better arguments.

[–]envatted_loveMore of a classical liberal 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You're right. One argument is Robert Nozick's "tale of the slave" thought experiment. It's short:

"Consider the following sequence of cases... and imagine it is about you.

  1. There is a slave completely at the mercy of his brutal master's whims. He often is cruelly beaten, called out in the middle of the night, and so on.

  2. The master is kindlier and beats the slave only for stated infractions of his rules (not fulfilling the work quota, and so on). He gives the slave some free time.

  3. The master has a group of slaves, and he decides how things are to be allocated among them on nice grounds, taking into account their needs, merit, and so on.

  4. The master allows his slaves four days on their own and requires them to work only three days a week on his land. The rest of the time is their own.

  5. The master allows his slaves to go off and work in the city (or anywhere they wish) for wages. He requires only that they send back to him three-sevenths of their wages. He also retains the power to recall them to the plantation if some emergency threatens his land; and to raise or lower the three-sevenths amount required to be turned over to him. He further retains the right to restrict the slaves from participating in certain dangerous activities that threaten his financial return, for example, mountain climbing, cigarette smoking.

  6. The master allows all of his 10,000 slaves, except you, to vote, and the joint decision is made by all of them. There is open discussion, and so forth, among them, and they have the power to determine to what uses to put whatever percentage of your (and their) earnings they decide to take; what activities legitimately may be forbidden to you, and so on.

  7. Though still not having the vote, you are at liberty (and are given the right) to enter into the discussions of the 10,000, to try to persuade them to adopt various policies and to treat you and themselves in a certain way. They then go off to vote to decide upon policies covering the vast range of their powers.

  8. In appreciation of your useful contributions to discussion, the 10,000 allow you to vote if they are deadlocked; they commit themselves to this procedure. After the discussion you mark your vote on a slip of paper, and they go off and vote. In the eventuality that they divide evenly on some issue, 5,000 for and 5,000 against, they look at your ballot and count it in. This has never yet happened; they have never yet had occasion to open your ballot. (A single master also might commit himself to letting his slave decide any issue concerning him about which he, the master, was absolutely indifferent.)

  9. They throw your vote in with theirs. If they are exactly tied your vote carries the issue. Otherwise it makes no difference to the electoral outcome.

The question is: which transition from case 1 to case 9 made it no longer the tale of a slave?"

It's a sorites argument, so it's open to some criticisms on that front. That's one of Brad Delong's points in his old response. The argument (and a brief video about it) were featured in this thread from a couple years ago in /r/philosophy.

[–]Techsanlobo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's a sorites argument

I learned something today. Thanks!

[–]StartUpTheRotors 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not here to convince commies. I'm here to PHYSICALLY REMOVE THE THIEVING SCUM.

[–]cynical-man-is-here -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (13子コメント)

Its only a shame you werent forced into labor, beaten, sold like a farm animal, and endured all the other horrors of slavery.

You truly deserve it. And I want you to know I mean that wholeheartedly. I truly believe you should be put to work for no personal gain whatsoever and worked until you die of exhaustion if only for the slightest chance that you just might develop a bit of fucking empathy and awareness of just how good your life is by comparison.

https://youtu.be/uwgTpMBvyxU?t=2m9s

Look its a day-in-the-life of OP

[–]RufusYoakum 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

The date-rape girl should stop saying she was raped because there are women who were beaten AND raped. Much worse than she!

[–]cynical-man-is-here 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

whew. You are really fucked in the head. Look buddy, social organization since before people were people, since when we were apes, involves some form of redistribution of wealth, call it "taxes" if you want.

Now either the entire history of mankind has been one of slavery to... whatever or you aren't a slave

[–]RufusYoakum 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

If someone or some group of people demand a portion of my labor regardless of my consent. It means that my labor is not my own. It means I don't own myself. It means i'm a slave.

when we were apes

Exactly how did the politician apes tax the other apes? I'm dieing to hear about it.

[–]cynical-man-is-here -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

If someone or some group of people demand a portion of my labor regardless of my consent. It means that my labor is not my own. It means I don't own myself. It means i'm a slave.

Nope it means you're a human and like every other human in the history of all humans you live in a society where some of your work is taken for communal purposes. You are not a slave, you're a self-righteous piece of human trash who wants to equate his life of luxury to some of the worst suffering inflicted by people on each other.

You are fucking scum and you don't deserve anything you have because you lack basic humanity or even the slightest bit of self-awareness. You deserve to be enslaved and worked like a dog until you die and receive absolutely nothing for your work. Maybe then you'll reconsider this stupid ass statement of yours

[–]RufusYoakum 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Your impeccable logic and charming way with words are really bringing me around to your line of thought.

[–]cynical-man-is-here 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hey its a fact human society has been build from day 1 on social organization and contribution to communal needs. And the rest is justified insults for your inability to see what true slavery is and to make yourself out to be a victim in the same way they are.

Yes, you are human filth, pure trash, a degenerate piece of scum

[–]NoShit_94Somalian Warlord 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Oh look, if the master is benevolent it's no longer slavery!

[–]cynical-man-is-here -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

You deserve to be thrown into chains and worked to death just so when you finally die broken and used you'll realize just how fucking stupid it is to call taxation slavery.

You are not a fucking victim. You are not the literal property of other people. You are kidnapped and worked against your will. You do not see absolutely no benefit or income from your labor. You are not a slave.

I know you fucking luxurious fragile little children want to play up your "victim-hood" because you think it gives you some kind of moral authority but anyone who wants to be a victim is fucking scum. You are a piece of human garbage who wants to use the most extreme suffering of others to whine about paying taxes. Seriously, and I mean this wholly and honestly, you need to be thrown into chains and worked like a mule until you realize just how much of a fucking worm you are. You think you're a slave? You want to call yourself a slave so you can whine? Then fucking be one.

[–]NoShit_94Somalian Warlord 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

K, edgelord.

[–]cynical-man-is-here -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I mean it.

You clearly have no idea what slavery is, you clearly don't understand just how good your life is, how free you are, how good your life is. You clearly don't appripiate freedoms that you have and you want to equate your situation to people who were literally owned and worked to death for their owners

You are human garbage, pure fucking scum, a self-righteous little fuck who's detached from reality and isn't worth the effort to spit on

[–]NoShit_94Somalian Warlord 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Says the guy who thinks it's only slavery if the master beats you. Please take a look at Robert Nozick's Tale of a Slave.

[–]cynical-man-is-here 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Wow of all the stuff I said about slavery you think thats the only characteristic that matters?

Christ you are a little sheltered fuck. Seriously you need to be put into slavery, real slavery, you need this experience because I honestly can't think of any other way your life will have any worth whatsoever since you have absolutely no humanity in you at all.

[–]GelfandFominPragmatic First, Philosophic Second -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

He's an anarchist who just want to be left alone, so there's no reasoning with him.

[–]mongoljungle 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

according to the libertarian ideal, all taxes should be collected via property tax, because you pay to have your property rights enforced, which is as close to a contract with government as you possibly can.

Property tax should valued by sqft of land usage, since land domain is where government holds power. Government played no role on the construction of the building on top the the property, therefore if a group of guys wanna get together and share one lot it should be none of the government's business.

[–]VStarffin 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (72子コメント)

Yeah, this isnt hyperbolic at all. Hard to believe libertarians aren't taken seriously with such nuanced, reasonable positions.

[–]angerer51[S] 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Thank you for your input.

[–]RufusYoakum 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (61子コメント)

hyperbolic

Except you didn't make an argument.

[–]VStarffin 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (60子コメント)

That's a correct observation.

[–]RufusYoakum 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (59子コメント)

In your world it's reasonable to threaten people give their money to pay for things they don't want, don't need, never asked for, and wish would stop. That's not reasonable behavor. It's violent thug tactics and has no place in a civilized society.

[–]Techsanlobo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I am curious, what level of taxation, if any, are you OK with? And if you are not ok with taxation, what method for revenue generation should the government use?

[–]VStarffin 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (57子コメント)

It's not their money.

[–]RufusYoakum 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (56子コメント)

Oh? Please do tell how the U.S. government owns all forms of money and non-money in the world.

[–]VStarffin 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (55子コメント)

They don't own all money. Just the amount owed in taxes and other fees paid tot them, like national park entrance fees.

[–]RufusYoakum 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (54子コメント)

How do "they" come to own it?

[–]VStarffin 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (53子コメント)

Democratically decided laws.

[–]RufusYoakum 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (52子コメント)

Awesome. I'm going to write this down on a piece of paper.

"I own 50% of your income."

Me and five buddies will be over to your house to vote on it. You can vote too. Since we wrote it down on paper and voted on it democratically that means we own 50% of your income.

[–]TheGreatRohCultural Capitalism 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

hyperbolic

You should look up what that means.

[–]HippeHoppeFiat Iustitia Pereat Mundus 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I think this is a bad slogan. Even on the radical libertarian view, taxation is more akin to theft than slavery. Slavery would be like a corvée system - under slavery, you are compelled by force to work on someone else's behalf. In theft, you have what is already yours taken away from you. When the state taxes, it takes things away from you, but it doesn't force you to work to produce things for it (that would be more analogous to jury duty or conscription). After all, you're free to be a bum, never work at all, and live off the welfare state: you aren't made to work.

[–]NoShit_94Somalian Warlord 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

The government is just a more sophisticated master, it know that you'll have to work either way, so there's no need for passing a decree forcing you to work and risk generating revolt among the people.

[–]HippeHoppeFiat Iustitia Pereat Mundus 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I mean, bums who live off welfare don't work...

[–]NoShit_94Somalian Warlord 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, government counts on most people not wanting to be bums.

[–]RufusYoakum 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The idea being that you must work to survive. The government claims a portion of your labor as theirs. This makes you a slave.

[–]ndcapital 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This reminds me of that one country that wanted to put people in jail for not having a job

[–]fleentrain89 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (50子コメント)

lol - dude, slave owners payed income tax.

To compare taxation to slavery is obviously a false equivalency, because then what are slaves? "meta" slaves?

You don't have to pay taxes - but you do if you want to benefit from what those taxes provide: national defense, infrastructure, and public accommodation.

[–]Chrisc46 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (12子コメント)

slave owners payed income tax.

No they didn't. Slavery was abolished before income tax was created. At least in the US.

[–]GLBMQP 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (21子コメント)

You do have to pay taxes, otherwise you'll end up in jail.

[–]NoShit_94Somalian Warlord 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (11子コメント)

You work half an year just to pay taxes, call it what you want, but we all know what it is.

Won't even comment on the "you don't have to pay taxes" bit...

[–]fleentrain89 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Nobody is forcing you to live here.

If you take advantage of domestic and international defense, and infrastructure developed through tax-payer money, then you must pay your part.

[–]eletheros 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Nobody is forcing you to live here.

Doesn't matter. The US levies income tax on all citizens or ex-citizens regardless of where they live for 40 years after they give up their citizenship.

[–]JustaloginnameFilthy Statist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you're mistaken. If you renounce US citizenship you do not have to continue to pay US taxes beyond that year.

[–]fleentrain89 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

source?

[–]NoShit_94Somalian Warlord 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Are you insane? It's my land. By your logic the mafia is perfectly justified to charge their "protection fee"over the neighbourhoods they violently dominated.

Even ignoring the fact that the only reason for the government be the one investing in infrastructure and defense is because it gave itself the monopoly over it, it's an almost negligible part of my stolen money that goes for infrastructure and police, and you can't really call bombing syria "defense".

[–]fleentrain89 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

lol - its "your" land - protected by the Government from domestic and foreign infringement.

In fact, the only reason your property is not subject to "protection fees" akin to the mafia is because the Government will defend your property with force. This precludes you from needing a personal military and bodyguard to protect your interests, which lets those people work in other fields that contribute to society.

the only reason for the government be the one investing in infrastructure and defense is because it gave itself the monopoly over it,

Yup - that's the only reason, nefarious too. It has nothing to do with consolidation of resources, organization, and democratic oversight.

[–]TinCupChallace 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Unless they decide they want your land for the greater good...at the price they decide...then it's Fuck you.

[–]NoShit_94Somalian Warlord 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lol "the only reason your property is not subjected to the mafia is because a larger mafia already controls it" how nice of them...

Indeed it does not, politicians don't give a fuck about any of that, they just want your stuff.

[–]liberty2016 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Under libertarian ethics individuals have final ownership over the products of their labor and what they produce, not over land. Land is not the product of anyone's labor, it is a common natural resource which pre-existed man.

Additionally, the monopoly for certain types of infrastructure, courts, and defense is a natural one. There is generally only going to be a single army securing a given territory from external threats in a single location at a single time even if it is limiting itself to defensive uses of force and not engaging in aggression to suppress competition.

A libertarian government does have a right to charge fees for public services so long as fees are only issued to local landholders who have privately enclosed land within their jurisdiction, and so long as the government either guarantees freedom of movement with neighboring governments or has a formal process for territorial secession so that individuals can choose under what system to live. I would agree our current system does not meet this criteria.

[–]RufusYoakum 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You could be living in Japan earning 100% of your income in Yen for the past 50 years and the U.S. government would still demand a cut of your labor. Your argument is invalid. I wish people would take some time to learn about the oppression under which they live before they defend it with such zeal. Speaks to the effectiveness of public (government funded) school indoctrination.

[–]liberty2016 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nobody is forcing you to live here.

There is generally no free market for nation-state citizenship unless you are extremely wealthy. For the vast majority of people in the world, there are coercive barriers on travel and immigration between national borders. Since there is generally not freedom of movement between nation states, people do not have much freedom to choose under which nation state to live.

However there is freedom of movement within the United States and within the European Union, so if taxation were devolved and kept as local as possible in the future there would be some degree of choice. However taxation is not currently devolved in the United States due to the presence of national taxes, and I believe the EU requires their member states to all implement a VAT.

[–]kingofthefeminists 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You don't have to pay taxes - but you do if you want to benefit from what those taxes provide: national defense, infrastructure, and public accommodation

Yeah I'll try making that argument when the IRS comes a-knockin.

[–]HippeHoppeFiat Iustitia Pereat Mundus 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I responded elsewhere with one reason why the "taxation=slavery" claim is silly, but I don't think you're making a good point. You seem to be saying that people who own slaves can't themselves be slaves, but I'm not sure why that's the case. Slaves frequently managed other slaves, and while that isn't quite the same thing as ownership, I don't see how they would be any less slaves if they did in fact have ownership rights over other people.

[–]fleentrain89 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm just pointing out that a slave has more rights than a slave of a slave.

So, equating a slave to a slave's slave is clearly false.

[–]N776AUI Miss Neal Boortz 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Neal Boortz just today put out an hour-long podcast on the FairTax. Great listen if you subscribe.

[–]10art1left-libertarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

So if you don't believe in taxes but don't want to completely abolish the government, how would it be funded?

[–]Codroy 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I believe this is thread is about Income tax. We pay many different taxes, not just income tax, the worst being the inflation tax.

[–]RufusYoakum 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Voluntarily?

How is your car insurance funded? How is your car funded? How is your food funded? Clothes, shoes, your vacations, your clothes store, your car manufacturer? How is everything else in your life funded?

[–]liberty2016 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

National government should be funded primarily by membership fees paid by the state governments. The proportion of the national budget that each state owes the national government should be equal to its number of senators + representatives divided by the total number of congressmen, or the proportion of votes it receives in the electoral college. The fee owed by each state should be further weighted by the level of externalities each state produces and burden it creates for neighboring states, such as carbon emissions.

State government should be funded primarily by membership fees paid by county governments. County and municipal governments should be funded primarily by a public services fee levied on local landholders in proportion to the unimproved value of privately enclosed parcels of land.

[–]10art1left-libertarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

So what if large chunks of the country don't want to be part of it? What if the big cities like the government, but the rurals between don't? What if there needs to be a highway but the land owner between the cities refuses to sell the land?

[–]liberty2016 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

These problems already exist today. By devolving the direct collection of all public revenues to the local level, local governments will have sufficient revenue to directly implement any social program they believe that a higher heirarchy of government is either failing to provide or is not providing in an efficient manner. When taxes are collected nationally at the highest heirarchy of government, this problem is much worse, as local governments no longer have sufficient revenues to directly implement programs themselves. They instead have to hope for it to be granted back to them after it has been taken from them. If people have more local control over the collection and allocation of revenue I think the country will be less polarized than in the current scenario where the majority of revenues go directly to the top to be spent on questionable expenditures such as foreign interventions which the average person does not derive clear benefit from.

[–]envatted_loveMore of a classical liberal 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the standard response is a combination of: (a) less funding would be needed, and (b) other funding sources are available.

  1. The government of Libertopia would require far less funding than the present US government. Different people will give different estimates for how much less, but a number of changes would enable significant spending cuts. For example, most libertarians favor a much less ambitious foreign policy, so large defense cuts are on the table. And I'm sure you already know how libertarians feel about Social Security, welfare, Medicare, and federal involvement in health care. These items make up 79% of the budget, so cutting them in half would reduce total outlays by nearly 40%.

  2. Fees for specific services could cover some expenses. Parks, pensions, roads, and others are already partially funded by user contributions.

  3. Some clever mechanisms might be developed. One interesting proposal is the dominant assurance contract (the paper in External Links explains it in detail, but I'd rather not link a PDF).

  4. Tradable permits (cap-and-trade), Pigovian taxes (such as--controversial example alert--a carbon tax), and other "externality rectifiers" would generate some revenue too, but I don't think it'd be much.

[–]WastingMyTime2013minarchist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

At it's current bloated state, it couldn't be you are right about that. There are plenty of ways governments can raise revenues, tariffs, investments, fees, other taxes (some libertarians are strictly against income tax, but not say a national sales tax).

That is why, I believe, the income tax and federal reserve were created. So the Government could spend beyond its means. Even as a libertarian, you can't deny the beenfits and speed of progress that provided, however could be argued it has created an unsustainable bubble.

Regardless, what our government spends FAR outweighs the tax revenue. So much so, that let's be honest, tax revenue is little more than "tradition" and negligible to what we spend. It is just a power tool and means of control for the government, and a means to punish.

[–]Mentioned_Videos 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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