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"Employees must NOT wash hands" (California) (self.legaladvice)

-Brigand- が 投稿

I work in an office in California.

The owner of our business jokingly said last month during a meeting that washing hands is a waste of time, and that if everyone spends half a minute less in the bathroom, it'd be better for the company.

Haha. ha. It wasn't a joke. It's a small company, so he usually takes care of supplies, and we just ran out this week. He's apparently stopped ordering paper towels or soap. No official company policy has been stated, and all this week more and more people have been bringing in their own soap, etc.

My legal question is pretty straightforward. Is an employer legally obligated to supply hygiene products to employees in the state of California? We do not handle food or anything that would make us hang an "employees must wash hands" placard.

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[–]omg_pwnies 620 ポイント621 ポイント  (36子コメント)

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/restrooms_sanitation/

Employers must maintain restrooms in a sanitary condition. Restrooms must provide hot and cold running water or lukewarm water, hand soap or similar cleansing agent and warm air blowers or individual hand towels (e.g., paper or cloth). Waterless hand cleaner and towels/rags are not adequate substitutes for soap and water.

[–]Safarione11 209 ポイント210 ポイント  (8子コメント)

I would print this out and tape it to the bathroom mirror.

[–]omg_pwnies 112 ポイント113 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Yep, exactly. I can't believe how dumb some employers are.

Mine has signs everywhere "Please wash your hands!" 2-3 different types of soap in the bathroom and both paper towels and air dryers.

[–]MordorsFinest 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Not dumb, malevolent

[–]sikyon 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (3子コメント)

No it's idiotic as well. How much productivity do you lose because of the spread of disease?!?

[–]Idigwiththat 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

But think of the savings!! He could easy save...3 or 4 dollars over a month on soap alone!

[–]florencetheslave 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It sounds like the company isn't doing too well if they are worried about 30 second increments in the bathroom affecting productivity. Or, it's just plain stupidity. Thank goodness it isn't a restaurant.

[–]donjuansputnik[🍰] 39 ポイント40 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And in front of EVERY urinal, as OP's boss doesn't wash his hands.

Also, OP, don't shake this jackass's hands, just to be sure you don't catch whatever he has (aside from a severe case of stupid).

[–]DatOpenSauce 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep. Although, would be better to print this at home so OP isn't in shit when print logs get checked.

[–]TheRevEv 83 ポイント84 ポイント  (23子コメント)

This reminded me of a question I had when I did tree work. This page states that mobile workers must be within 10 minutes of a restroom. That wasn't always feasible in rural ky. It wasn't uncommon to be a 10 minute (or more) hike back to the truck, and then 20 minutes to a public restroom.

I know there are other workers in similar scenarios, how is that legal?

[–]pmormr 76 ポイント77 ポイント  (11子コメント)

how is that legal?

Their manager told them to shut up and use the woods, and they never complained to OSHA?

[–]detroitvelvetslim 33 ポイント34 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The workers just did what I did when I worked outside and took advantage of the ability to take a leak at work with warm summer air blowing past the johnson and didn't worry about it?

[–]halftwitch 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We call.it a "surveyors bathroom" and keep "shit tickets"(baby wipes) in a ziplock in the equipment

[–]CoffeeFox 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I would wager there is some exemption to this that we aren't aware of. Perhaps we aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

[–]shill_account_46 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I find it hard to believe that there is an exemption to bathrooms on the books but feel free to prove me wrong

[–]Dykam 41 ポイント42 ポイント  (3子コメント)

What about surveyor-like jobs? Park ranger? I can imagine it's simply never been contested, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was an exception.

[–]TheRevEv 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I doubt that was the case. These are major, nation wide companies that have been in business for decades. I'm sure they've found some loophole

[–]YakaFokon -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Their manager told them to shut up and use the woods, and they never complained to OSHA?

The problem there is obviously with all those bears in the woods…

[–]omg_pwnies 112 ポイント113 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Not a lawyer or an expert, but according to that link it isn't, at all, and you could have filed a report with OSHA.

source: I've had to fight for my right to potty. :p

[–]katherkelly 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yeah, in that situation, wouldn't it be on the employer to hire a port-a-potty or something to be within a ten minute range of where OP is working?

[–]DoomBot5 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly what would happen if OP had an issue with it and complained.

[–]otrigorin 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've had to do that at a rural cemetery - it was JUST far enough from our office/garage that we rented a port-a-potty when we were doing extensive work to the property. Not year round, as it was close enough to meet the requirements... but having it there saved so much time when we had lots of people working on a project or improvement or whatever.

[–]katidid 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lol, I'll never hear that song the same way again!

[–]carrotcatnip 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Being out in the middle of nowhere isn't an excuse when there are tons of porta potty rental companies.

[–]TheRevEv 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (4子コメント)

That doesn't even really work when you might only be in the area for a day, then on to some other out of the way place

[–]carrotcatnip 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (3子コメント)

You can rent a portal toilet and load it onto a truck to take wherever you are going.

https://anotherbeautifulday.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/porta-potty-w.jpg

Honestly sounds like the employer just doesn't want to pay for it since it's amazingly easy to have one go wherever the work is.

[–]Mac_H 47 ポイント48 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Oh boy.

Someone in forestry has the job of walking through the countryside and taking water samples. They are well away from a road.

How is 'amazingly easy to have a porta-potty where the work is' ... when a lot of rural work is not near a road?

The proposed solution is to helicopter porta-pottys in at 0.6 mile increments (to keep within the '10 minute walk' limit of the law) across the landscape in preparation for someone who is probably not going to use them ... and is only going to be within walking distance to each one for 10 minutes !?

Even having one on the back of a truck like that isn't valid - you aren't meant to use it unless it is taken off the flatbed and put on the ground. That should be easy - a simple forklift can do that.

And then, even after that, you would refuse to take water samples because the data collection points are > 10 minutes from the location of the porta-potty ?

That ain't a solution for the real world.

-- Mac

[–]MangyWendigo 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (0子コメント)

you're 100% right

it's an unaddressed area

it will come up at some point and the law will be adjusted

in a sane world, hopefully along the lines of "oh jesus christ, just shit in the woods" in legal speak

[–]skatastic57 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It sounds more like dudes in the business of cutting down trees aren't complaining about not having a bathroom and are just peeing outside or peeing in between jobs.

[–]QueenAnneBoleynTudor 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Actually, California is a state plan state. Meaning, because they're standards are stricter than OSHA, you would report any complaints to California. Unless it's an IDLH (imminently dangerous to life or health) OSHA stays out of it.

At any rate, CalOSHA is pretty straightforward on what your employers responsibilities are.

In short, no, he cannot legally do this. Show him this or print it and tape it to the bathroom mirror. If it persists, report it to CalOSHA, and in the meantime look for another job.

[–]worldbound0514 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, the soap or hand cleaner even needs to have lot numbers and expiration dates. Bathrooms without basic necessities are definitely not OSHA compliant.

Why is basic hygiene beyond some people? Does this boss WANT people to get sick from not washing their hands after using the bathroom. That wouldn't be good for business or productivity - "Sorry, half the staff is sick today because I was too cheap to keep soap in the bathroom."

[–]DieCrunch 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm "general industry" osha certified, so I would know this is correct.

[–]emlgsh 178 ポイント179 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Has he gone too far, or not too far enough? I mean, the several minutes spent going to unsupplied restrooms could be further mitigated by employees relieving themselves in a shared pit in the center of the flex space, with waste composted to grow crops the company could profit by selling!

But, seriously, huge OSHA violation on workplace restroom sanitation. Call in a complaint, and hope that you don't live in some kind of bizarro alternate universe where you're the only one that's unhappy (or has expressed some unhappiness) with the situation.

They can't technically fire you for it, but I wouldn't put it past an employer willing to do what's already transpired to find ways of making your working life hell (or really, even more hellish) if they figured out you were the source of the complaint.

[–]ThatGuyGetsIt 57 ポイント58 ポイント  (1子コメント)

If I were you I'd be looking for a new job. Not just because the boss is an asshole, but because if he's that concerned about the cash flow then the writing is on the wall.

[–]SoMuchMoreEagle 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good point. He's also obviously terrible at prioritizing, since one employee getting sick from not washing their hands is going to cost more company time than the time saved from everyone not washing.

[–]WynnDuffysEyebrows 39 ポイント40 ポイント  (0子コメント)

OSHA requires employers to provide soap and hand towels.

[–]FlatusGiganticus 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (2子コメント)

This is a really bad symptom of a much much bigger problem. Start putting a little away from each paycheck just in case. I would also start looking for a new job immediately. Dead serious.

[–]wolferoo 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Seconded. There's a real possibility he's stopped buying restroom supplies as a way to save a few $ because the business is failing. Get out of there before paychecks start bouncing.

[–]okverymuch 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I second this. A leader with this kind of thought process could lead you into unanticipated ruin.

[–]Swedishpunsch 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You could probably also call the board of health. Ick.

[–]DoctorPancake 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (3子コメント)

An alternate way to address this is for you and your coworkers to immediately approach your boss after exiting the restroom and shake his hand, touch his desk phone and toys etc while your hands may or may not still be dripping with water.

[–]margogogo 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If this is how the boss feels about hygiene, I would recommend NEVER touching his hands or belongings. Yeesh.

[–]chanaleh 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"water"

[–]SoMuchMoreEagle 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wet hands transmit more germs, so wet is better.

[–]okverymuch 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah you need to tell him that's not okay, and he can get into BIG trouble with that. If he thinks human efficiency will improve with spending 1-2 minutes less in the restroom per day, then he lacks the understanding of how humans operate. One cannot demand that sort of efficiency.

[–]optiongeek 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It strikes me that your boss is either really into playing mind games as a display of dominance, etc., or just cracked in the head. Either way, I would take this as a red flashing "Exit" sign.

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