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Exgoblinfor freedom が 7時間前投稿

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トップ新着論争中古い順 Q&A

[–]Killing_Spark 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 3時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]Exgoblinfor freedom[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 3時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]Killing_Spark 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]Exgoblinfor freedom[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 6時間前 (4子コメント)

[–]alphabetcerealXubuntu [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]Exgoblinfor freedom[S] [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]alphabetcerealXubuntu [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]Exgoblinfor freedom[S] [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]lovelybac0nArch -4 ポイント-3 ポイント-2 ポイント 4時間前 (32子コメント)

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[–]lovelybac0nArch -2 ポイント-1 ポイント0 ポイント 3時間前* (30子コメント)

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[–]AlienatedLabor [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (7子コメント)

[–]lovelybac0nArch [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (6子コメント)

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[–]Exgoblinfor freedom[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 3時間前 (15子コメント)

citation needed
Neither of these countries were communist; they were socialist at best and state capitalist at worst.
Any communist would tell you that killing innocent people is unacceptable; one of the main reasons people are communist is because they see the current capitalist governments killing innocent people. If a leader goes against the ideas they are meant to protect, you can't point to those ideas and say those are the problem.
Most communists don't support Stalin or Mao as leaders at all, and if they do, they support specific actions they took to genuinely improve the quality of life in the countries they ruled (Rapid industrialization of both Russia and China), or specific ideological concepts they contributed to communist theory (ex: mass line).
If you really want to count bodies, lets talk about American slavery, imperialism, the native American/Australian genocide, and the millions of deaths that occur from easily preventable causes (hunger, diseases, homelessness) every year because they're just not profitable.

(edit: formatting)

[–]lovelybac0nArch -3 ポイント-2 ポイント-1 ポイント 2時間前* (14子コメント)

Use google.
Like there is a difference. Both require, in all their imbecility, centralization of power to coordinate and administrate the communes. And power corrupts so you ensure the pshycopatic killers like Pol pot, like Stalin, like Lenin, like Mao and the rest go for the top position. And what do they do? Farmville? No they kill and maim and destroy and millions end up dead. Think of you family and friends. Then think fucking millions.
It's not about intention of the people, it's about human nature when you have one party that elect on leader with no counterview. You end up with murderous regimes. When Churchill said that democracy was a bad form of government but the best we could think of. It's exactly the counter to centralization of power he talked about. So one party, one government, one world order is the enemy. One party? really? I have no words.
No sane human supports killers but I'm telling you that the idiot, believes like you, and have produce terrible leaders that will kill. Probably you and your family too since your outspoken about what you think. They hate that.
Ok, I'll follow along. The Americans might have killed a few hundred thousands during their 240 year history. Communism/Sosialism/Whatever killed hundreds of millions over a few decades. Fuck!

How can you not see this?

[–]Exgoblinfor freedom[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 2時間前 (8子コメント)

if you want to use a statistic, you need to have a credible resource backing up your statistic.
- Socialism is a purely economic system where the means of production are democratically owned by the workers. There's plenty of socialists that aren't communists at all, from market socialists to anarchists to egoists.
- Communism is a stateless, classless, moneyless society where the means of production are democratically owned by the people. Stalin's USSR and Mao's china were none of these things, most of which they freely admitted.
- State capitalism is when the means of production have been seized by the state and are controlled by state officials. If those officials are democratically elected and can be removed, such as in Cuba, this can be close to socialism, but the direct control still lies in the hands of specific individuals.

These are important differences.

I don't understand what you're saying here. All communists are brutal dictators?

4.Here's some statistics as to how many people have died directly because of american politics and industry:

Native Americans: (Up to 112 million) https://books.google.com/books?id=9iQYSQ9y60MC&pg=PA49#v=onepage&q=population&f=false
Congo: (8 Million) http://www.necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Congo
American Slavery: 15-20 Million http://necrometrics.com/pre1700b.htm#African
Hunger: 21,000 per year (http://www.poverty.com/) I could go on, but looking up statistics takes time I need to be using for other things.

[–]lovelybac0nArch [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (7子コメント)

True.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. It doesn't matter if the ideas are pure and good. The outcome of the thinking is what matters. Millions of dead means you kinda move on to the next thing. Right? Communism is like unity.

4.1 Sure, but native americans died of diseases brought from the east more that anything. They where not killed like in your utopia.

4.2 >Roger Casement's original 1904 report estimated that as many as 3 million Congolese had died of disease, torture or shooting since 1888 (cited in Gilbert's History of the Twentieth Century; also in Colin Legum, Congo Disaster (1972)).

Communism's death count is by maiming and starving people intentionally. Wow.

In American Holocaust (1992), David Stannard estimates that some 30 to 60 million Africans died being enslaved. He claims a 50% mortality rate among new slaves while being gathered and stored in Africa,

Slavery was terrible and thankfully ended an long and gruesome human practice of keeping slaves, something humans have done forever. But here is the thing. The intention. Communism/Socialism killed people they didn't like! It was murder by intention.

You can compare deaths by discease and slavery to brutally and intentionally killing people only to save face for you murderous and idiotic ideology. Your a terrible person. I hate you.

[–]Exgoblinfor freedom[S] [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (6子コメント)

Your a terrible person. I hate you.

So much for no hard feelings.

You're assuming that these deaths can be attributed to Communism, and not the individuals that committed them. If you are willing to let innocent people die for your own gain, you are not a communist, no matter what color your flag is, or what title you gave yourself. If Stalin killed X million people, then Stalin deserves to be hated. But if Stalin killed X million people, then he wasn't any kind of democratic leader, meaning his government wasn't in any way socialist or communist.

You can call yourself anything you'd like. But if you don't follow the ideas set forth by the ideology you claim to support, you are not that thing.

If you want to see some real communists, take a look at Catalonia, or Rojava, or the revolution currently happening in the Philippines. These aren't communism yet, but the people who support them are real communists, working together democratically.

I'm happy to debate this as long as you'd like, but really, /r/DebateCommunism is the place to do it.

I'm not the bad guy. I want a world where everyone has a warm bed, enough food, and an opportunity to do whatever job they like to do. I think Lenin did too, and almost everything he wrote supports that idea.

[–]sneakpeekbot [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]lovelybac0nArch [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (4子コメント)

[–]Exgoblinfor freedom[S] [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (3子コメント)

I'm not a Stalin apologist.

I don't have enough historical background or resources to prove that Stalin didn't kill a lot of people. If he did, I absolutely don't condone it.

But I also think that makes him not a communist. If his system was democratic, which is necessary for socialism and communism, there's no way he could have killed the number of people he did.

Communism does not equal Stalinism, nor does it really have anything to do with Stalinism. If you can show me when Stalin did anything like putting the economy in the hands of the workers, or abolishing the state, or the class system, or money, then maybe he was a communist. But if all he did was kill a bunch of people who disagreed with him and used his power for his personal gain, then he's not a communist, and your point is invalid.

The point of communism is to try and create a society where democracy reigns over everything else. If you have a non-democratic system, it can't be communist.