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To liberals (self.Anarchism)

ElenTheMellon が 投稿

What is the worst thing you think Donald Trump has done so far?

If you answer, "Beginning the ethnic cleansing of 11 million people from the United States vis-à-vis mass deportation," then you are my comrade.

If you answer, "Escalating the wars in Iraq, Syria, and elsewhere, and using a notorious death squad to kill an 8 year old american citizen, among other civilians," then you are my comrade.

If, however, you answer, "Colluding with Russia to steal the presidency from OUR RIGHTFUL QUEEN, Hillary Rodham Clinton!" then you are most definitely not my comrade. Get fucking fucked, mate.

(Also, when you sit there saying we should try to impeach the man through legal channels, knowing full fucking well that the entire presidential line of succession is occupied by republicans, well then not only are you not my comrade, you're also just a gigantic fucking fool.)

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[–]snakydog 100 ポイント101 ポイント  (5子コメント)

March 14: Trump authorizes the CIA to use drone strikes. The CIA can now carry out strikes anywhere in the world and they dont have to disclose it

Also March 14: Rachel Maddow shows off two pages of Donald Trump's tax returns from 12 years ago.

Which of these got more attention from liberals?

Liberals are looking everywhere in an attempt to find something immoral that Trump is doing. "Oh golly, maybe he asked Putin to hack the DNC?" They are completely ignoring the actual immoral actions he is carrying out right now.

Oh but of course, the CIA is on our side right? Because they are the ones that told us Russia hacked the DNC, so I guess its fine for them to use drones to kill people secretly. I'm sure they will only use it against bad people.

[–]smugliberaltears-Death to all who stand in the way of freedom for working people 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Rachel Maddow

is a worthless propagandist who, like other democrats and republicans, supports America's program of international terror

[–]ApollosGlory 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's most definitely interesting to watch the propaganda machine at work here recently. There seem to be a lot of events coinciding with each other. Watching how one get extensive news coverage, while the other does not.

One particular example was the alleged "coup" in Venezuela, in which the western media immediately starts clamoring about dictatorship, economic meltdown, corruption, etc and then flipping over to Rex Tillerson's glowing endorsements of Turkish president Erdogan - who is actually poised to assume dictatorial powers in Turkey. One is "socialist" in name, the other a stringent ally of the United States.

Then, on top of that, in the same day no less, South Korea's ousted (pro-US, i.e.; capitalist) president was jailed for extortion, to which I barely saw any news coverage.

I don't see how anyone could look at these three events, the level of news coverage they each received, how they were reported and what the facts actually are and not reasonably declare that all these western media outlets are actively engaged in pro-capitalist propaganda.

[–]bijan4187 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I gave this letter to sam ronan and he hand delivered it to tom perez and keith ellison at the dnc national convention in atlanta:https://medium.com/@bijansharifi/a-letter-to-the-dnc-from-a-first-generation-iranian-american-and-u-s-7bfb558130eb

Its been two months and no reply. Go figure.

PS: im not a democrat. I only got involved w sam ronan because i like trolling liberal elites. Ive been a green sonce 2008 and now getting involved w SA.

[–]wilsonh915 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Liberals are looking everywhere in an attempt to find something immoral that Trump is doing. "Oh golly, maybe he asked Putin to hack the DNC?" They are completely ignoring the actual immoral actions he is carrying out right now.

Because Obama was doing the same shit. If they were (correctly) outraged over Trump's drone program they would have to admit Obama also waged a racist war of imperial aggression.

[–]DougBlasingame 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (0子コメント)

liberals are more committed to the myth of the noble, reasonable Republican than Republicans are.

[–]smugliberaltears-Death to all who stand in the way of freedom for working people 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (10子コメント)

didn't we also bomb like a couple hundred civilians in iraq recently?

[–]We_Are_The_Waiting 59 ポイント60 ポイント  (9子コメント)

we

They did, we're just people trying to stop them.

[–]Comrade_Spudlike, big time 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Exactly. There is no "we", and i refuse to internalize the atrocities of the state

[–]gamegyro56 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (5子コメント)

internalize the atrocities of the state

What does that mean?

[–]FiIthy_Communistbut filthier 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Identify them as your own with words like "we" "us"

That's what I got from it, at least. Weird choice of word.

[–]Comrade_Spudlike, big time 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Thanks, comrade

[–]FiIthy_Communistbut filthier 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

These flairs tho.

Are you me?

[–]gamegyro56 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't understand why you'd refuse to admit that we profit from the atrocities of the state.

[–]MusicAccount1001 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

He means he'd rather not articulate the state's actions as something identifiable with his own identity.

[–]smugliberaltears-Death to all who stand in the way of freedom for working people 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good point. It's not like I've got a fucking say in this shit.

[–]ElenTheMellon[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

While this is true, sadly it is not the way people on the ground in Yemen or elsewhere will see it. All they know is that we elected the man who is killing their children.

As far as their lives are concerned, every day we do not overthrow Trump by force is another day we are complicit.

[–]skinnygaykidSHED MY SKIN, LEAVE IT FOR THE HOMELESS TO SLEEP IN 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I agree, but all three of those things are fucked. Obviously the attempted muslim ban and the war crimes are a bit (a lot) more horrible, but there are valid reasons that the russian collusion is fucked beyond the "her turn" bs. Center democrats may not be your comrade, but neither is Putin.

[–]DonaldTrump_AMA 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah, I mean giving the people a voice and countering authoritarianism is a pretty huge part of what we're about. Also, Hillary Clinton is not really relevant to this.

[–]ElenTheMellon[S] 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

She's relevant in that liberals continue harping about her and the election, and saying that we should focus on the Russia connection to the neglect of all else, and that any other issue is just a distraction.

They are saying that the suffering of human beings and the tyranny of the state is a distraction.

That's what I'm upset about.

[–]ElenTheMellon[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sure. But the question is, "What is the worst thing you think Donald Trump has done so far?"

Corruption is not worse than ethnic cleansing, and I resent every liberal toadie who implies so with their constant wailing and gnashing of teeth over Russiaghazi.

[–]smoothstone2002 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (2子コメント)

maybe post this someplace else. Hardly like the right is going to frequent an anarchist subreddit.

[–]cyanoside 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (0子コメント)

OP needs to vent here, is ok

[–]ElenTheMellon[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, just venting.

[–]SE-ANTIFA 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

FUCK LIBERALS

[–]Trololler 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I want to rip my hair out whenever these clueless progressives on the news talking about "Russia hacked the election." That fucking phrase is so disingenuous. They released emails that made the Democrats look bad and the dems are completely unwilling to confront WHY that hurt them. They are more willing to drum up nationalism within the left than confronting wealth inequality or anything of substance.

Plus they can fuck off with "but muh Russia" when they are over here with their noses up Isreal's ass. The fact that its almost impossible to get elected if you support Palestinian freedom or condemn Isreal should confirm this. Saudi Arabia and Isreal good, Russia bad.

[–]Cheerwellbelligerent 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't forget to mention that he's using all the tools Obama either built or refused to un-build and left for him to play with. Obama the Saint is a liberal shrine that remains unblemished to this day for a frighteningly large amount of people.

[–]Mainstay17Justice, justice shall you pursue 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also, when you sit there saying we should try to impeach the man through legal channels, knowing full fucking well that the entire presidential line of succession is occupied by republicans

That's been the most worrying effect of this campaign/election in my opinion. Liberals are starting to romanticize the "good opposition" - the problem being, the "good" Republicans are still racist homophobes who want to give the country to the rich. First it was Romney with his anti-porn crusade and opposition to the NLRB, now it's John Kasich with his anti-abortion crusade and opposition to "the gay lifestyle." Some people I talk to even talk about how good Dubya was compared to Trump. Dubya! The guy who lied us into a war! This is who liberals want. Trump has poisoned the well to such an extent that liberals are basically turning Republican.

[–]mastoidprocess 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I understand that in the US context we often assign more importance to the lives of citizens, but it doesn't matter that that 8 year old girl was a US citizen.

[–]ElenTheMellon[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with /u/Top_Marx_91, but I also agree with you! The other civilians who were killed are just as valuable as Nora was! (Which is why I said "among other civilians".)

I'm just saying that liberals not objecting to the killing of a citizen is especially representative of how morally bankrupt they are. They won't even stick up for a fucking citizen. Like they don't even have that much backbone.

[–]Top_Marx_91 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It does matter, because it means that the rule of law is being eroded. War is nothing new to the US, but subverting the judicial system by killing US citizens by executive order is something very serious.

[–]TempestofMist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

A lot of people (not just liberals [note John McCain]) are concerned about his collusion of Russia. Not necessarily to steal the election, but the fact that someone with an immense amount of power, someone who can order a tactical nuke at pretty much anytime, is colluding with a rival nation-state is fairly concerning.

I also have to disagree with a lot of this. By creating posts like this we alienate liberals who could be persuaded to a more radical leftist cause. We can't generalize liberals like that. A lot of them aren't like this, and while a lot are; that doesn't mean they can't be pushed to a further left position.

The current capitalistic government in America has lots and lots of issues. And maybe in the future to fix some of it violence will be used/needed, however a lot of the issues (like the terror campaign America has waged in various countries) could be stopped using non-violent techniques.

I also think it's not to far off that he'll be able to be impeached. If enough evidence is gathered of his collusion with Russia, it's an impeachable offense and congress + senate would most definitely have to look into it; and failing to do so would technically be treason and then violence would be allowed.

[–]ElenTheMellon[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

By creating posts like this we alienate liberals who could be persuaded to a more radical leftist cause.

If a liberal did read this post, they would see my substantive criticism of their ideology, clear as day. And unless they were completely closed minded – in which case they would not be the sort of liberal who can be "persuaded to a more radical" cause – then they should be able to understand that criticism, and either take it to heart or engage with me over it.

And sure, my angry tone might lead them to engage with me with initial hostility, but in that case I would simply try my best to deescalate. The initial post is just intended for venting, not persuasion. If they want to start a debate, then sure, I'll moderate my tone for persuasion. But that's not what I came here for, nor is it what I'm likely to get in this thread. There aren't exactly a whole lot of liberals on /r/anarchism.

I also think it's not to far off that he'll be able to be impeached.

So the fuck what? He'll be replaced by Pence. And if you impeach Pence he'll be replaced by Ryan. And so the fuck on down the line, republican after republican after republican after republican.

This entire impeachment charade is a distraction – BY DEMOCRATS – to prevent people from paying attention to the real atrocities of state power Trump is committing, which they intend on committing as soon as they have re-seized the reins of power from him and his ilk.

[–]TempestofMist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I see your point now, and I agree. Impeaching Trump would just get someone to the presidency a person who knows what he's doing and who in some respects is more extreme and evangelical.

But I'm unsure if you can say that Democrats intend to do the same things as Trump, since if they wanted to they could've have done it during Obamas first term when there was full blueness. So I may have to disagree there. And sure, there are probably some Democrats who would do the same if given the same chances. And sure Democrats are actually that left-leaning compared to other countries, but we can change that; we could facilitate progress using the Democrats because chances are there are Democrats that agree with our stances or approve.

What us as leftists need to do is get mainstream. There are plenty of ways we could do that, but that's what we need to focus on (other than bashing fuckin fash).

[–]ElenTheMellon[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

But I'm unsure if you can say that Democrats intend to do the same things as Trump, since if they wanted to they could've have done it during Obamas first term when there was full blueness.

Barack Obama deported three million people. More than almost all previous presidents combined.

Barack Obama escalated the war on terror. We are now bombing seven different countries – Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, and Somalia.

And what did democrats do with their supermajority in the Senate, in 2009–2010? They gave us Romneycare for the nation. Not universal healthcare, not even a fucking public option. They gave us Romneycare. A republican plan, developed by the Heritage Institute in the 90s as the right wing alternative to the universal healthcare plan that Hillary Clinton supported at the time (but which she subsequently flipped on).

So yes, democrats do intend to do the same things as republicans. The great sham of our political system is the widespread misbelief that they are somehow a lesser evil.

Now, that said, I personally do believe that we can change the Democratic Party from within, through the promotion of leftists like Bernie Sanders. But it will always be a constant struggle against republicans-in-disguise like Obama and Clinton. And it may be a hopeless endeavor. They control all the levers of power, and will continue to collude with the media and rig their primaries against us at every opportunity.

In the end, electoral politics may be a dead end. But if they choose to make peaceful revolution impossible, then, ultimately, they will make violent revolution inevitable. That is just the way of it.

[–]TempestofMist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree wholeheartedly but I still think that there is no way Democrats are not generally better than Republicans. Republicans generally limit freedom of speech, deny climate change, promote nationalism and are usually bigots; much more so than Democrats.

[–]le-imp/Reading bread book 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What if the first thing to pop into my head was the mass bombing done a few days ago? i say because 1) its still a fresh wound (side note reason 1.5 whatever you call it his imperialistic views on Iraq could show this a step towards war or a state shake down ) and 2) i'm still newish here(two weeks top)

[–]ElenTheMellon[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I did not exhaustively list all answers which would make you my comrade or make you not my comrade. I merely listed two good answers, and one very very bad answer.

I would say your answer is fine.

[–]lwapd 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm one of the several "liberals" (I guess) that hang around this sub.

So his relationship with Russia is far, far from the biggest problem with his administration. Everyone knows that. But, out of all his shitty actions soo far, this is the most viable thing to lead to an impeachment. It's not a problem as much as it is a weakness, and the media focusing attention on this scandal is a very good move politically. So maybe it kind of sucks that something petty like this is more important politically than the life-or-death decisions he makes, but it is. And it's the best chance his political opponents have to defeat him before things get even more out of hand.

[–]ElenTheMellon[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

So his relationship with Russia is far, far from the biggest problem with his administration. Everyone knows that. But, out of all his shitty actions soo far, this is the most viable thing to lead to an impeachment.

And what on earth do you liberals hope to accomplish with that?

If Trump goes, Pence is president. If Pence goes, Ryan is president. And so on down the line. It's just republican after republican after republican after republican.

This impeachment game is a distraction, by democrats, to prevent people from focusing on Trump's real atrocities, so that democrats will be given a free pass to commit those same atrocities as soon as they have reseized power for themselves.

[–]lwapd 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You don't think trump is more dangerous than your standard run of the mill republican?

[–]ElenTheMellon[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

He's certainly more incompetent than one.

He'll certainly be easier to defeat electorally than one.

He'll certainly do a lot more to alienate people from rightist politics than one.

And he certainly will NOT kill substantively more or less brown people than one. They're all mass murdering fucks, who will carry out his policies with glee after he's gone.

(Plus, do you really think he wouldn't run for president in 2020 if you impeached him now? Just be warned: if you remove him from office on or before January 20 of 2019, then he's eligible for three fucking terms, under the twenty-second amendment.)

(Also be aware that, even if he doesn't run for president a second time, he'll still be a gigantic fucking martyr.)

[–]DJWalnutRevolutionary Alliance of Men that Women find Unattractive 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

my first thought was "rolling back transgender protections"

I'm assuming that counts as a good answer

[–]0TOYOT0 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also, when you sit there saying we should try to impeach the man through legal channels, knowing full fucking well that the entire presidential line of succession is occupied by republicans, well then not only are you not my comrade

Exactly, it's so annoying when liberals talk about impeaching trump, I would much rather have trump as prestident than Pence. Trump may be bad, but he's a bastion of social progress compared to most other republican politicians.