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DISCUSSIONThis diversity/inclusivity/sjw craze needs to die! [no spoilers] (self.masseffect)

DapperDaveth が 投稿

What's wrong with making attractive characters? Seriously. If someone is so fucking insecure that they need the characters in the video game they're playing to be ugly/gay/fat/whatever that is their own fault. They don't have to buy the game. I don't have a problem with a character being fat, gay, or whatever, but don't force it. If it makes sense in the story, fine. We are seeing in practically every game now days developers feeling the need to check a box for every possible "inclusive character." Most recently with Mass Effect: Andromeda. They should make the characters as originally envisioned. Because when developers try to squeeze in "inclusive characters" it comes off as forced and unnatural. People are turning into perpetually offended cry babies. You know what it means to be offended? I'll tell you. "To be offended is basically saying that you are incapable of controlling your own emotions and so everyone else should do it for you." (I saw that quote on Tumblr somewhere) Let's stop catering to these people. Maybe they'll grow the fuck up. What are all of your thoughts?

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[–]Savethepenguin 44 ポイント45 ポイント  (13子コメント)

You noticed how some people are up in arms over "not being able to create a white guy"?...

Yeah, so that's a good example how people get when they feel they're not being represented. It's the same for every type of person.

[–]Mrgudsogud 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I applaud your ability to make a calm and reasonable response to OP's drivel.

[–]BettyBlueGT 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (7子コメント)

But the problem is when they are in 99% of games as the lead and have a melt down they aren't in this one.. It kinda looks like a typical history lesson on their race.

"Done to others I'm fine. Done to me I'm not fine"

[–]BiggWoo 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (3子コメント)

My reaction when I entered the Character creation was "why can't I make a white guy?" And that is because I am white. You can say the lead characters have always been white but if we go back to the OT there was always the option to make the lead character whatever skin colour you were be it pale or black.

I don't care if someone wants to make a black lead, or an asian lead. But if they want me to feel immersed in a game, which is typically what Bioware and the ME series tends to want, at least let me make a character that looks just like me.

[–]BSRussell 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm confused about this. In what word is default Ryder not white?

[–]BiggWoo 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Default ryder is white yes, but the in depth customisation lacks the ability to create a character that is white enough to match my appearance for example.

I look nothing like the default ryder, so if the game wants me to be immersed the only option is the default, or some tanned white guy that doesn't look like me from the custom selections, of which there are two(both of which are the same level of white).

[–]RiceandBeansandChees 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lol, the cc is bad no matter what race you are.

[–]Knight_Soiaire 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Basically this

[–]ElTamales 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fucking this! Then lets not forget the crazyness of a few years ago.. where all AAA games had a darn white character in their 30's.. ALL OF THEM.

Reminded me of the same crazy about "brown graphics are realist". That every AAA developer started to imitate.

[–]BettyBlueGT 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I should pull one of their favorite lines and when they complain about this or the gay characters I'll say "stfu you race baited"

[–]NeroJoe 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You noticed how some people are up in arms over "not being able to create a white guy"?

And it's so fucking stupid too. You totally CAN make a white guy. You just can't make him pale white. Furthermore, the DEFAULT face of the game, from all the marketing material, is a white male.

[–]DapperDaveth[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

[–]Savethepenguin 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because the CC only lets you achieve a certain skin tonation, and that sits a bit on the tan side. Some people are complaining that they "can't make a white guy" for example, then talking about BW pushing an sjw agenda. It's a crazy example, but it sums up pretty well how tetchy people get when they feel they're not being adequately represented.

[–]DapperDaveth[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think thats a little different as far as subject goes. But I think that's ridiculous too. That's such a stupid thing to complain about.

[–]pleasefeedthedino 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (2子コメント)

People are turning into perpetually offended cry babies

Sounds pretty much like the OP tbh.

[–]Peebeemeshaber 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (18子コメント)

I don't have a problem with a character being fat, gay, or whatever, but don't force it. If it makes sense in the story, fine.

Fat and gay characters "make sense" in just about any story, aside from things like fat soldiers I suppose.

My thoughts are that diversity is a good thing for everyone, because it opens up design space and cuts down on repetivity. Making the games more inviting to more people, and letting other people see well thought out representations of people who are not like them, is also a good thing. If the gay/black/fat/"whatever" characters seem like shallow tokens, the solution isn't to stop including them, it's to start making a better job out of it.

That said, it certainly shouldn't be the case that every developer feels the need to abide by a checklist. There are only so many characters in a game and sometimes you need to focus, but I'm really not seeing video games in general being done under by the tyranny of the essdyaydubbelewwws.

[–]DapperDaveth[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I suppose if they can make the characters fleshed out enough, you're right. It doesn't bother me in that case. I don't think that's how it's been though. It still just feels very forced to me and inorganic.

[–]-Sai- 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Which characters feel "forced" to you? Also... where are you seeing "fat people" in this game? I don't think you've even played it.

[–]BSRussell 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

How so? Examples?

[–]Peebeemeshaber 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't actually disagree about that, but I don't think the solution is to cut down on the kinds of people that are represented in video games, I think the solution is to write them better. And frankly, you have to start somewhere. It's not realistic to expect an industry that has a very weak precedent of representing underprivileged to suddenly start churning out high quality characters of all stripes and colours, but in the long run I think you're both screwing all gamers (even the ones who belong to none of these groups) out of a lot of more interesting and varied content, and also shutting minorities out of the playerbase if you don't make an effort to include a little more variety, and seeing some half assed executions during the transition period probably just isn't avoidable.

[–]HalloMolli 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The game offers no diversity besides androgynous Girls for those who want to Play as an attractive female character or (at least) interact with an attractive female character.

[–]ElTamales -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Actually, it wasn't until ME2-Me3 where we finally seen more variety on characters and choices. You had from the perfect bimbo, to a rogue badass and a biotic monster, the "perfect schoolgirl" and so on.. ME3 even did bring finally different models to show the female Turians. Game Wise, you got a ton of varieties, not just Cora and Dr. Suvi for romance.

[–]BootyPolice1010 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Diversity is only a good thing when it isn't forced.

When you force a developer to change their vision (i.e CDPR with their lack of people of color) then it's a problem.

[–]Savethepenguin 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

There's no such thing as forced diversity in a world of aliens. Only bad or short sighted character design.

@OP: I'll ask a question. Which characters do you feel show an example of "forced diversity" and why?

[–]BootyPolice1010 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

There's no such thing as forced diversity in a world of aliens.

You completely misrepresented my entire post.

I'll ask a question. Which characters do you feel show an example of "forced diversity"

I specifically gave an example.

People were shaming CDPR for their lack of "diversity" with their almost entirely white cast of characters in the Witcher 3. Thankfully they didn't cave in to the pressure and remained true to their vision.

Stop trying to find outrage in my post when there is none to be found.

[–]Savethepenguin 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

That was my mistake, the second part was meant to be for the OP as opposed to you. Doing this on a phone and clearly making a hash of it.

Corrected it now.

[–]Peebeemeshaber 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm using diversity in a more literal sense here, as in just "having a lot of different stuff and being less monotonous". That's different from inclusivity, although the two obviously are natural bedfellows.

I'm not generally for forcing anything (I don't know the specifics, but I somewhat doubt CDPR was "forced". I could believe they were pressured), but sometimes if you want to make a point you have to pick on specific targets to be heard at all. That can be a little uncomfortable, but still necessary pragmatically. Sometimes someone's vision sucks, or is unnecessarily lacking.

Also, the whole argument against "forcing" anything always comes of as hypocritical and inconsistent to me. If you're criticizing a game for its treatment of minorities, you're "forcing the developer to change their vision". If you criticize a crappy gameplay mechanic or some awkward dialogue, you're "providing valuable feedback that will encourage the developer to improve in the future". It's like a game developers "vision" of an all-white society is a sacred and central aspect of their vision, but the gameplay mechanics their game is actually built around are just incidental things that happen to be there, so they're fair game. It just comes down to different people caring about different qualities to different extents, but I'm generally against outrage campaigns, hate trains and boycotts (though there are exceptions, at least for boycotts).

I don't think CDPR or their fanbase appears to have suffered any major damage.

[–]BettyBlueGT 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

You know how you successfully make change? You force it at people.

Throughout history the "lesser" people have screamed loud and clear they want to be equals. You think if they sat on their ass and took whatever little exposure they got they'd have what they do today? Nope....

Personally I don't get my panties in a bunch when forced to play as a white character. So try not to live up to your stereotypes of being intolerant and learn to accept other views and ways of life for the betterment of all humans.

[–]RPGHero01 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

talks about forcing change

goes on to preach about tolerance

Uwot?

[–]Alberel 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Pretty much every civil rights movement in history involved the progressive part of society forcing change on the regressive part until the inbred bigotry died out.

Forcing change on the intolerant is not, itself, intolerant. For tolerance to exist the tolerant have to stamp out the intolerant. It's the only way it works.

[–]ElTamales 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agree, rights were FOUGHT FOR.. which kinda counts as "forced". Anyone who loses their privileged positions above everyone else, will cry and demand "help, we're being oppressed now!" when in reality there is level ground now. People who are privileged will NEVER want to lose that privilege. They sometimes fight to death by bribery, cheating, murdering and even wars. History showcases this way more than once.

[–]BootyPolice1010 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You know how you successfully make change? You force it at people

Then you're a fascist.

o try not to live up to your stereotypes of being intolerant and learn to accept other views and ways of life for the betterment of all humans.

The irony in this post truly is priceless.

I genuinely don't know if you sense the hypocrisy in your post.

You claim that people should force developers to have more diversity and then preach about intolerance. Your lack of self awareness is astounding

[–]Legionbehemoth_cat 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Take your own advice; grow up and don't presume to assume that others' motivations are what you think they are.

[–]DapperDaveth[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's pretty obvious that social justice is a big political topic right now. And we've even heard quotes from various developers including bioware that they want to be more inclusive. Is that not revealing their motivations? I think it is.

[–]BSRussell 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And you are anti inclusivity?

[–]Paragonbigeyez 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (34子コメント)

1) Looks are subjective so you saying the characters are all ugly is YOUR opinion.

2) How do you know Bioware was "forced" to do anything? Bioware have been catering to many different tastes for years now so I'm sure no one is forcing them to do anything. As a business they made the business decision to reach out to a larger audience then just stereotypical straight white guys between the age of 16-30.

3) You mock people who are "offended" by things in video games....in a post where you are bitching about things in video games.....to use you own words if it bothers you don't play the game.

Let me ask you something OP. You say you don't have a problem with fat or gay people when it makes sense in the storyline. Share with us an example in your opinion of a fat or gay person making sense in a storyline and how that differs from the characters in Andromeda.

[–]HalloMolli 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (29子コメント)

Yeah, but the majority won't consider androgynous females attractive. Don't Forget, you Play super soldiers, people that are not just average humans but heroes. If you take that into consideration it would only make sense if everybody was good looking. But obviously Bioware (since DA:I) hates good looking female characters (Sexist maybe? I dunno).

Games like The Sims (70%+ are female) prove that 99% of Gamers prefer to Play with attractive (in the sense of the majority) characters anyways. Want some proof?

Sims 4: https://www.thesims.com/en_GB/gallery Sims 3: http://de.thesims3.com/exchange

You can sort by popularity or amount of Downloads. 95% of all created sims are beautiful sims. They look like underwear models (just like male characters in the Mass Effect and Dragon Age series, female characters, however, have been designed very ugly in the last two games).

There is no (!) reason not to make every female look beautiful in the game (as I said: it would fit the lore + the huge majority of Gamers likes it this way). There are even fewer reasons to make, say, 50% beautiful. But Bioware did the exact opposite. They made every female ugly. And People are fed up with it.

[–]Paragonbigeyez 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (11子コメント)

That's a nice opinion you have. It's a shame beauty is subjective or you might have had a point.

[–]HalloMolli 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Yes, but that's no arguement, there is obviously a tendency in Society (Standards, norms etc.) where you can say that the majority would consider Person A more beautiful than Person B. Typical Beauty models for example do their Name justice. Please look at the Sims library I posted, 99% of the sims look like underwear models because, you got it, People consider this as beautifu, good-looking, sexy, whatever.

[–]ElTamales 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Beauty changes. It isn't a fixed model. Did you know that Fat women and men were claimed to be "beautiful" in the past? all because it was seen as a symbol of wealth and prosperity. Ingrained and pre-programmed traits such as beauty change according to what is the "standard" in the society. Ads and other things make huge pushes.

Hell, even "androgyny" was a thing. https://www.littlethings.com/beauty-through-the-ages/ http://www.scienceofpeople.com/2016/05/ideal-body-types-throughout-history/

Also, I wonder how many real gamers actually play THE SIMS. The sims is pretty much the epitome of casual gaming and roleplaying.

[–]HalloMolli 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yep, since I studied history in college I am well Aware of at least most Beauty Standards from the past, but thank you. This does not Change the fact that right now, in the present People adapted, developed and have completely different views on certain aspects of human life.

[–]ElTamales 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm mentioning these Websites and history.. because there are so many people who kept defending their weak point about standards of beauty by claiming that the current standards we have.. are somehow ingrained in our DNA or something (Which isn't) to justify their agenda for supposed game perfection..

I guess some people just cant accept that gaming now is a more broader fandom than just the classic 13-30 year old virgin nerd who idolizes certain body types. And they get extremely defensive when there are other tastes, groups or choices inserted in their "precious" game.

[–]HalloMolli 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I can see where you are coming from. And (to a certain extent) I appreciate what Bioware is trying to achieve as well. But in the end their approach falls flat and is just a very awkward venture to try to introduce "diversity" to the game. In reality It's not diversified. You could even argue that it's Sexist towards men and women and on top of that very one-dimensional in its character design.

[–]ElTamales 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

indeed, I think ME3 was way higher in the diversity aspect than ME Andromeda. They fucked up really badly in some models and in their animation algorithm.

[–]Jorg_Ancrath69 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

LOL, What because someone has money they become beautiful? No the money is nice and that still applies today. Plenty of ugly old people with models at their side, it isn't because the ugly old person magically became beautiful

[–]ElTamales 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

There are ugly people with cute kids and viceversa.. and with nothing to do with money.

[–]Jorg_Ancrath69 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

"Did you know that Fat women and men were claimed to be "beautiful" in the past? all because it was seen as a symbol of wealth "

This is what I'm referencing ... You don't become beautiful because you have money. You are attractive because you are wealthy. Nothing to do with your body

[–]ElTamales 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It was not only a symbol of wealth as in money for gods sake. Being chubby back then was also considered a level of "wellness" and "healthiness". No difference of now, in how the culture of supermodels and super thin women was also a thing a very few years ago.

[–]BSRussell 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (13子コメント)

That's dumb as Hell. That's like saying "people prefer looking at attractive people, so there is absolute NO reason to include anything but gorgeous people in all television shows."

[–]HalloMolli 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (12子コメント)

No, Television Shows usually reflect the reality we live in. They portray ordinary, average People like you and me (e.g. Braking Bad, Friends, Scrubs yadayadayada). That's their premise and it works. TV Shows with fictional Elements (super Heroe tv Shows for example) actually have almost always only (!) gorgeous People in their cast. Yet alone in the Sci-fi genre: Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon 5, Stargate, Battlestar Galactica etc. as genre veterans prove my Point btw.

But I tell you something. It wouldn't be a Problem if DA:I and ME:A both provided beautiful and ugly characters. But they don't. They only have good-looking men; women on the other Hand are ugly (which not only does not make Zero sense but is also an artificial design choice against what the majority prefers).

[–]BSRussell 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Television shows portray "ordinary, average people" to varying extents, but they are by no means locked in to that. Even grounded sitcoms like "How I met your Mother" have fantastical elements. They are fiction and can do what they want. And listing shows that happened before and saying "historically, shows like this have had gorgeous people, and that proves a point!" That...doesn't prove anything in regards to what we're discussing.

I found Cassandra, Leliana, diplomat whose name I can't remember, Vivienne, etc attractive. You are welcome to disagree, but you just can't flat out claim ownership over something subjective. And while I've only played a bit of ME:A, Cora seems plenty attractive to me.

And, at the end of the day, there's no rule saying that developers need to always go with "what the majority prefers." Progress is made by artists blazing trails, not waiting for the community to instruct them. If developers always stuck with what the majority is accustomed to playing all of our characters would still be Japanese teenagers.

[–]HalloMolli 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Well, it's a fact that most of us prefer (!) and enjoy the presence of "gorgeous" People. I think this is a good read on that matter if you are interested: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired-success/201108/why-we-pay-more-attention-beautiful-people

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-we-treat-good-looking-or-attractive-people-better

And why do you think I brought up a game like The Sims? Because the game simulates the lifes of ordinary People (no super heroes, so it should be predestined to prove that "Looks" don't matter to us, but it actually proves the opposite) and yet Gamers still prefer to have beautiful sims over, well, "average" People.

TV Shows are slighty different but they still prove my Point (again: 90% of the sci fi tv Shows have beautiful men and women, even the old cast from Star Trek is no different).

And please stop with your "this is something completely subjective"-arguement since it does not Count. You know, Human-beings don't follow the rule of determinism (unlike math, physics, natural science in General) so your arguement can literally destroy every (!) single study of human behavior etc. It just does not work that way. You can still Display tendencies and I am 100% certain that if you asked 100 random People (while showing them the female cast from Dragon Age 1 and Dragon Age Inqusition) at least 95 would confirm that androgynous Cassandra, Leliana etc. are not only "not attractive" but also literally ugly in a direct comparison.

When I Play Videogames I want to immerse myself into the Situation. So if I had the Chance to choose a potential romantic Partner I would always go for the beautiful Option. It's more immserive, it makes more fun, it makes sense within the lore and the majority prefers it anyway. There is NO NEED not to make everybody beautiful. But, as I said, Bioware went for the opposite. There is no rationalaty behind their decision. It was only made for the purpose of following their questionable Agenda and, yeah, you have a Point: because they can. But naturally this will polarize and leave many People unhappy behind (and no, they are NOT diversive but very one-sided on that matter).

[–]BSRussell 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Then maybe ask those people, because I flat out disagree. I'm not arguing that there is an absence of general beauty standards and preferences, I am saying that even within those Vivienne is a fucking fem-bot, Casandra isn't really androgynous beyond her hair (which fits her character) and Leliana is straight up conventionally pretty (if you forgive an awkward character model in DA:O). Oh and then there's super cleavage Morrigan.

This is such a weird argument. You want a game to be immersive, but to be full of stupidly gorgeous people instead of realistic looking ones. If "immersing yourself" involves always choosing the most beautiful partner regardless of other characteristics then that says more about you personally than anything.

Honestly you just don't like people going against your preferences. If they make beautiful people it's just normal, if they make a variety of people it's a dreaded "agenda." Oh noooooo, God forbid videogames be more inclusive instead of an endless march of straight white Adonises. If that makes people unhappy then I really don't give a shit. There are also people that raged at having TV shows about fat people, or black people or gay people.

[–]HalloMolli 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Indeed, Morrigan is good looking, she is a Beauty because she meets the standards of the average human being who expects a beautiful character. But she didn't have a significant role in DA:I, so it's pointless to bring her up. However, I have to agree with you that Vivienne is in fact pretty "good" looking(in the context of Beauty Standards).

And I don't think that it's "realistic" to expect super humans/heroes/those who save the world/galaxy from mass murder etc. to look ugly. I am sorry, I just don't buy that. Also when I Play those games (Witcher 3, Prior Bioware games, JRPGs etc. prove this) I don't want the characters to be realistic! I was hoping you finally understand my Point. It's boring to Play somebody who Looks like the average Wallmart Joe in my real life. I don't want that.

For the last time: They don't make a variety of People, they obviously Focus on ugly women while 100% of men still look like underwear models. That's the difference. And btw: I am not a "straight White man" but was Born in Romania and I am actually a Girl (living in Germany). I don't rage about the fact that there are gay People, fat People or black People in Bioware games but about their very one-sided portrayal of women.

Cora, however, is behaving very masculin, she Looks like an adroynous individual, she often talks like a man as well.

[–]BSRussell 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

...why? In what world are less attractive people somehow less capable of solving problems or shooting aliens? How is that not realistic? Why can you not buy that?

You are the one that said you liked immersion, well generally that comes along with some realism. That means that people won't always be beautiful. It also means that a highly trained woman in an elite pseudo-military unit is unlikely to look like a Disney princess. It's a high testosterone, jockish environment. The idea that she would be a delicate little flower is absurd. That may be your preference, but things going against your preference doesn't have to be some nefarious agenda.

[–]HalloMolli 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Do you know Lightning (FFXIII), she is my favorite female character of all time. She Looks stunning, is a strong female and was an elite soldier before she eventually become a goddess. She is perfect on all Levels and it was pure enjoyment to immerse myself into her and follow her Story.

Superheroes (TV Shows, games prove this) often look beautifully as protagonists. The reasons for that I listed above. If you are a super Heroe then you are super in general and, as I said, on all levels (skills, Looks etc.). Of Course you can make a Heroe look ugly but almost nobody (besides new bioware if it Comes to women) does it.

And the context does not matter, I know some very beautiful women who are soldiers and went to Afhanistan. I am sure in the US Army there are also women who make Cora look like a witch. But that's beside my Point: I want REAL diversity. I want to have beautiful (like Beauty models) women and ugly ones. But why do all women have to look ugly while men have always been designed good-looking. The opposite would make sense but I would be happy with a compromise, but no. Forget it. And I hate the pseudo realistic Approach they did on Cora. It just does not work for me (and many other People who are unhappy).

[–]ElTamales 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

No, Television Shows usually reflect the reality we live in

BS. Television shows mostly a very specified view that fits the agenda/choices/tastes of a very specified group of individuals who develop said TV programs. Most TV shows are embellished and over exaggerated visual of what happens in reality. Have you seen these "teenager" sitcoms and series/shows? Tell me how a 14 year old kid is portrayed by a 25 year old dude actor is somehow representing the reality we live in.

[–]HalloMolli 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I phrased it badly. Many TV Shows such as Sitcoms like Friends etc. take the view-point of average People. Why? Because that is the reason they are funny/entertaining. They tell stories that are supposed to happen to us (we, as the Viewers should identify ourselves with those situations) or at least they can resemble our "lifes".

RPGs mainly don't. Sci-fi TV Shows don't to it either. They follow different rules and they provide certain design decisions for a reason.

[–]ElTamales 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sci-fi TV Shows don't to it either. They follow different rules and they provide certain design decisions for a reason.

Tell that to the guys of The Expanse, Battlestar Galactica, Dark Matter, etc..

[–]ElTamales 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I dont think a female super soldiers would look extremely feminine with huge tits and giant ass and zero muscles for the fantasies of a nerdy virgin. But then, could be way worse. Like those japanese games with ridiculous proportions and nosense armors.

[–]HalloMolli 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Nobody here in this whole thread asked for "huge tits", "giant ass" and "Zero muscles". To prove my Point look at this Picture:

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4fcdfb5e5eb19e6c47fe505867e46c268d8900caac6a28a3ef3b4d308c9a7299.jpg

Androgynous/ugly "individuals" vs good-looking and elegant women.

[–]ElTamales 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I never said you did, I just seen the same exact line of conversation to what you said. Except the others were immensely more extreme.. Just to say they wanted over specified levels of beauty and there shouldn't be any character that isn't a perfect super models in their game, because "hell, my game.. my fantasy". To simplify: A classic Meninist circle jerk.

[–]werasdwer 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Looks are less subjective than you think.. things like symmetry of features and a certain heart shaped face are attractive to almost everyone.

Now if you look at the faces in Mass Effect, they all look bloated. So unless your into frogpeople..

[–]ElTamales 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I dont think this is an issue with beauty standard but badly done models. Like I've said a few times in other conversations. It seems one team of Bioware wanted to make the chars realistic towards the base images they got as references.. but other group wanted to mix Disney esque features (to sell more? who knows) but some characters look so fucking weird. Like they were made by separate team with no artistic connection to the first.

[–]DapperDaveth[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

First of all I never said all the characters were ugly. Secondly I never said they were forced to do anything. To me it feels forced, but obviously nobody forced them to make the characters the way they did. Thirdly I can play the game, enjoy it, and still have criticisms of it. That doesn't mean I'm offended. To give you an example of a gay character done right. I would say ellie from the last of us. They respected the character and revealed her preferences in a thoughtful way. It didn't seem slapped on at all. You could tell it was heartfelt.

[–]Paragonbigeyez 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The irony is strong with this one....

Why mention "someone is so fucking insecure that they need the characters in the video game they're playing to be ugly/gay/fat/whatever" if you don't believe the characters are like that? -How is this relevant to Mass Effect Andromeda if you don't think it's true about the game?

"We are seeing in practically every game now days developers feeling the need to check a box for every possible "inclusive character." Most recently with Mass Effect: Andromeda." -This sure sounds like your saying Bioware was forced to include diversity because they are checking boxes on some list.

You say "Thirdly I can play the game, enjoy it, and still have criticisms of it. That doesn't mean I'm offended." - Well so can a gay person play a game with 0 gay characters and criticize it for not having characters they can relate to. It doesn't mean they are offended. So why say "They don't have to buy the game."?

Ellie is a decent example. Obviously a game like Mass Effect won't be able to spend as much story time on characters like Gil because he is a side character. So unless a character is the main focus of a 10-15 hour game developers shouldn't touch things like sexuality? If anything I would argue this is better then when Bioware was just allowing the player to romance anyone in previous games. THAT felt slapped on and lazy. Here they defined the characters and it makes complete sense for Gil to have his own preferences and stick to them.

[–]BSRussell 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're going to need to be more specific. How does it feel "forced." When does "gay" make sense in the story? How is it "forced and unnatural" other than the fact that it's not the kind of cast you're accustomed to.

And that definition of "offended" is baseless and dumb as Hell.

[–]Eamk 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think I got cancer from your post.

[–]BSRussell 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You are literally the one writing a rant on the internet, offended by seeing a person that doesn't look the way you want them to look. In what world are you the one coming from a place of maturity?

Also, that definition of offended is baseless and dumb as Hell.

[–]werasdwer 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Welp, this is the grand question, isnt it?

Do all the faces look like crap, because BioWare doesnt like making beatiful people, or is it just incompetence?

Both are equally bad imo.

[–]ElTamales 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Noone is forcing anything. But I sure as hell have seen many excuses of "Buts Its fantasy, I do not want background characters, NPCs or Teammates who arent perfect Bae stunning supermodel bodied bimbos". Its good to have.. but the other camp is demanding to have no variation at all.

[–]BlastChilla 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree some of the characters in this game are hideous but real talk if it were up to some of you waifu nerds Sara Ryder would look like this

[–]ElTamales 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dont forget the magical armor that blocks less skin than Dental Floss Cords but magically protects with huge stats.

[–]aj0413 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ya know, as rudely as it was made, the point on game development and direction being steer d certain ways due to inclusivity is true:

  • The dialogue tree is suppose to be more organic and natural
  • The models are suppose to look more "normal" cause not everyone is a movie star; why they use face scans
  • The squad mates are designed to be inclusive and reach out and feel alive

......these are all points that Bioware tried to make when asked about the game.

  • Dialogue feels weak and watered down since all the options amount to "Neutral Good Guy" to "Sarcastic Good Guy" to "Bleeding Heart Good Guy"; sheesh I wasn't in love with the gating of options using the Paragon/Renegade system, but at least things felt more diversified in my options and I actually felt like I was directly effecting real choices....here I just fee a bit shoehorned into a given direction.....did the new team hate Renegade-like options? Could've given them to us without gating.

  • All the models are pretty ugly/unattractive/bland/ect.... there are a few exceptions here and there and some people disagree on the severity or how prolific the problem is; but by and large most people and critics acknowledge it's a big problem. Further, the choke hold they have on the character creator, which we know should be more powerful given the engine, is like shooting us in the foot. They've attempted to destroyed part of the fantasy element in a video game. If we wanted pure realism we wouldn't be playing ME in the first place. We like our hot Asari and we want our characters to be attractive ..... it's our power fantasy, we're all able to make our own characters, interacting with NPCs can be stark weird cause of how distracting their faces are....why are you forcing something that was never an issue in the first place?

  • Now, to an extent they actually managed to reach their goals on the squad mates (even if I find it ridiculous that Cora is suppose to be some special hardcore professional badass but has a hipster haircut that could only be a detriment in the field and makes her look extremely young). In this though? The writing for them is outright cringe worthy at times and they utterly failed to actually be inclusive of all play styles.....there's one gay romance and the amount of content for it is tiny compared to others. Further, the AI for squadmates is clunky at best and lack of control in combat on powers just feels frustrating, not organic.

Soooooo, yeah, they swung. They missed. They were shooting for some points that sound nice on paper, but ultimately drop quality when they're in direct contrast with the design choices of the OT and we all were really just expecting more of that good stuffs

Game is still lovable, but man....could've been an easy 9-10.....instead we have this unpolished diamond in the rough that's a 6-7.5...maybe an 8 if you look past everything

[–][削除されました]  (6子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]werasdwer 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It really is.

    The Mass Effect lore itself says that blue eyes and blonde hair are almost extinct in the world of Mass Effect due to racemixing.

    [–]ElTamales 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Fascism is far right.. but keep projecting.

    [–]HalloMolli -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Well, your idea of fascism is naive at best.

    [–]ElTamales 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Its not my idea. Its not my fault you're clueless and uninformed. Go pick up a book or just google about the position of fascism in the usual left-right standarized map of movements.

    [–]HalloMolli -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Every philosophy which attacks/restricts the individual ((Person), and its/her/his rights to e.g. express themselves)) for the purpose of protecting a collective + adding sanctions executed by the gov. on top of that to establish a certain way of philosophy/thinking/ideology has to be labeled as fascism since it destroys and surpesses the smallest minority existing on earth --> the individual (Person).

    Edit: Just that you know: I grew up in eastern Europe in the 80's. I for sure know what it means to live under the premise of "equality", "tolerance" and an anti-western belief.

    [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–]I_Pariah 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Regarding your topic title I understand and even agree it is an issue that has gotten out of hand today in this heated and divisive political sphere. I do not know how this applies to this game though.

      [–]Intergalactic5Dchess -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I agree with op. He will get downvoted... but whatever.

      [–]HalloMolli 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Of Course he/she will, because, you know the "tolerant" left only respects their own ideology and fears criticism.