全 54 件のコメント

[–]sapien89 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Discuss with empathy" is basically the prescriptive equivalent of the "No trolling/abusive behavior" rule. I think all you need is a line drawn in the sand and that's already been done.

[–]TheCaconym 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I'm not sure this is really necessary; the contributions you're talking about were heavily downvoted time and time again by most users. In other words, the system (self moderation through up/down votes) works.

That being said I don't suppose actually enforcing this would hurt, especially given the pretty specific wording you're proposing.

[–]pupperboy 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I think it should be remembered that this topic brings together a lot of people with alternative view points. Collapse seems to be where environmentalist and federal reserve conspiracy theorists find common ground.

The concern I would have with that language is that empathy is highly subjective. If there was a discussion about water shortages in the Middle-East leading to immigration to Europe there are plenty of ways that conversation can turn out poorly. One commentor might be empathetic to the migrants while the other might be empathetic to Europeans who are watching their welfare system overload. Would a comment like "It isn't our fault they are out of water, we should deport them back." be a violation of that rule?

Also people here love to upvote comments like "Finally, I can't wait for the collapse to get going." I can't imagine a line more unsympathetic to all the billions of people who will suffer.

[–]ShlammiAutistic Schreeching 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

But posting in collapse usually isn't like that.

Take for instance discussing population growth. You have a billion alarmists screaming up and down about Nigeria's population is boooming. They are having just too many babies. Too many babies everywhere!

And, in the same breath on another thread they need to point out that Europe needs to increase birth rates to prevent being swamped out.

[–]xenagohumanity depends on healthy ecosystems [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

They are having just too many babies.

Oh god, the number of people who don't understand the link between per-capita consumption and total population drive me mad.

Obviously, every place on earth is overpopulated. But by refusing to acknowledge that developed countries actually contribute way more to every issue on a per-capita basis, these people allow themselves to feel morally superior about the 'stupid others'.

[–]ShlammiAutistic Schreeching [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Most of the people here say that. Which is kind of ironic, since practically everyone on collapse is a first world Westerner.

[–]xenagohumanity depends on healthy ecosystems [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yes, I think it's obvious that most redditors are american. The rest are from other developed countries

[–]TheCaconym [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Indeed; as a concrete example, Sudan has one of the highest population growth rate in the world. Yet a Sudanese human will produce on average 0.32 million tonnes of CO2 during his life, while a US citizen will produce 19.78 million tonnes.

This is all obviously simplified (and doesn't take into account possible future industrialisation), but a Sudanese would need to have more than 61 children to have an impact as worse as an American with only one child - in other words, spend more than 45 years being pregnant continuously.

[–]shitfacedbaboonseeking adult beverages for the end of the world [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The per capita argument is often used and I really don't see why. In Europe right now you are seeing an excellent refutation of the per capita argument.

Yes bigger societies see more emissions per capita but higher birth rates in MENA and Africa are creating millions of migrants who are now increasing the populations of western nations. According to the US census the United States gains one international migrant every thirty some seconds.

[–]Sekenre 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Something I have noticed recently is that those who advocate murder/genocide generate the most discussion due to the gut reactions that creates. It's basically trolling/shitposting and not even that relevant to r/collapse since it's advocating for a particular kind of collapse. i.e. the "Zombie apocalypse" fantasy where the hungry hordes of sub-humans are walking targets for the chosen few ubermench. Except their zombies have been replaced with the current popular "Other" in western culture and even people who chose to have children.

It's revolting but I am not sure you could fix it with a rule. "No nihilistic sociopaths?"

[–]perspectiveiskey 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think this is a good idea. Mainly because:

  • those comments were already downvoted, and in general, /r/collapse is pretty good at downvoting crap content (whether it be denialist shit, shilling, or sock puppets) - and this is honestly one of the principal reasons I come here: people around here are the non-aligning but also common sensical and thinking kind. We're all here because we believe collapse is imminent, but there is no "side" to be on. It's a weirdly nihilistic place, and I'd say more than average, the people here are probably sensible thinkers. A proper collapsnick recognizes that there really isn't any pay-off in being right about this or belonging to the group of people that are right

  • creating a rule to keep these out won't solve a real problem, only a minor nuisance, and is likely to create more problems

Case in point: the comment you cited by maketotaldestroi isn't exactly something I'd consider worthy of creating a rule against. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I don't necessarily disagree with it either. I'm just kinda in a "don't care" state about that particular issue and others are welcome to have their ideas. More importantly, I feel there is something to be gained by knowing what others are thinking... I do think that if I lived in the states, I might actually have a different opinion about it.

In contrast, the other comments you cite are what I'd call plain dumb. They likely didn't contribute to the thread, and if they did, then the thread was uninteresting itself. They're dumb because they're not insightful, they're barely thought out, and they really don't make me think of anything new. That comment about outbreeding others, for instance, reeks of someone who hasn't gone through childbirth and raising an infant, let alone 4... But since they were already downvoted, who cares?

So take that comment by total destroi: if it had been somehow banned, and then /r/collapse ends up on subreddit drama or some such, and then the uncensored news folk get a hold of it and descend upon this place, I think the damage would be immeasurably greater than some shitty comments could ever have been.

As for your empathy clause, it's hard to not end up where the DNC ended. We can't police people to be model citizens. The best we can do is ban actual threats, and this is already part of the reddit rules.

The second best we can do is enforce high quality content. And I think in general people are doing a good job of upvoting and downvoting shit.

PS. If anything, I'd think about hiding collapse from all if that's at all possible...

[–]xenagohumanity depends on healthy ecosystems 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think it is clear something like this is needed to prevent alt-reich invaders. We also need to get out of /r/all and /r/popular, if we aren't already. This place needs to be preserved - there isn't anywhere else like it.

My suggestions:

  • Implement a hard-line rule against support for (and enforce against obvious dog-whistles too) genocide, intentional starvation, etc.

  • Use the broader empathy rule to keep things civil on a case-by-case basis.

In addition, I always want to see comments by moderators in threads justifying why there are things that have been removed, and I would also like to see public warnings in threads telling users to watch themselves when they approach the limits.

I was banned from late stage capitalism (meme sub mostly) for 'slurs' despite any reasoning on my part - please ensure that doesn't happen here. Don't automate this, and ensure that it's dealt with on an individual basis.

[–]Sekenre 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Agree massively with your point about public warnings, that's going to have a positive effect on those who are lurkers that they can contribute without being piled upon by trolls.

Also people who are basically good but have a poor filter or are misinformed can have the opportunity to correct.

Pieter Hintjens wrote about this in the context of managing a distributed open-source software project: http://hintjens.com/blog:120

[–]xenagohumanity depends on healthy ecosystems 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes I like this.

I think people forget that this forum is especially tough on the mental health of readers due to the subject matter at hand; even someone well-meaning can lapse.. it's important we don't make that worse by driving them to anger and resentment.

[–]ssykd 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hear, hear.

Posts to the effect that "if this offends you, it's because you're an overly sensitive special snowflake" are also not very conducive to healthy discussion and just tend to lead to further exchanges of insults. It also seems to be the justification of choice for the alt-reich invaders and other miscreants for needlessly obnoxious behavior.

[–]xenagohumanity depends on healthy ecosystems 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, the ideas of 'merit' and 'social darwinism' also seem to come into play with these people, they look down upon others they do not understand and call them 'weak' for having perfectly human responses to issues.

[–]MrVisible/r/DoomsdayCult 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes, please.

As the moderators of this forum, you get to decide what type of conversation the forum is striving towards. This doesn't always result in the type of discussion you'd like, but establishing a direction and a tone is an essential part of moderation.

In the past couple of years, it's been proven time and time again that if subs on Reddit don't pay careful attention, they'll quickly be infiltrated by the kind of hateful racist garbage that's taken over most discussions these days. The racists have learned to play this system beautifully, and just a handful of them can turn an entire sub toxic within weeks.

This sub is particularly vulnerable, dealing as we do with the upcoming population bottleneck. It's easy to make the leap from 'there are too many people' to 'there are too many people that I dislike', and from there the conversation just deteriorates. Downvoting helps, but the damage is done; those conversations don't tend to recover.

There's an organized movement to disrupt productive discussions on Reddit and turn them into hateful flamefests. Putting measures in place to defend against that seems prudent.

[–]xenagohumanity depends on healthy ecosystems 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's easy to make the leap from 'there are too many people' to 'there are too many people that I dislike', and from there the conversation just deteriorates. Downvoting helps, but the damage is done; those conversations don't tend to recover.

This is very true.

[–]kaizervonmaanen 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Problem is some of these comments might be ironic and exist only to point out the absurdity of the status quo. So I am against "arguing with empathy" rule... Sometimes you might get a better point across by for example taking the side of a heartless government supporter or so on.

[–]Sekenre 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Isn't that basically the definition of shitposting? Ironic comments are generally low-effort and would perhaps be better suited to a collapse-memes subreddit.

[–]kaizervonmaanen 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Isn't that basically the definition of shitposting?

No it is not "A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift is the most famous writing in the same vein and it is a intellectual classic. Ironic comments generally are the comments on the internet that involves the most knowledge of the situation and the most effort than all other posts. If you list the 1000 posts on reddit that required the most effort then I bet 100% of them rely on some sort of ironic statement.

[–]Sekenre 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift

There's a big difference between a satirical essay and a pithy one-liner that only exists as bait for controversy, and then when questioned OP says "I was just being ironic, forgot the /s in miniscule type at the end"

My point is, irony is not a valid defence of offensive behaviour.

Edit: I'd just like to add that since extremism is so common in online discussions and increasingly so on reddit, it is getting progressively harder to tell the difference between hyperbole as Swift was using and an actual idiot with a horrible opinion.

[–]SarahC 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't have a desire for extra moderation - I don't get upset by comments made, but I know some get upset by jarring comments.

Also we may see discussions derailed by large amounts of angry-rows between people, so moderation would certainly help to prevent that from getting common.

[–]ShlammiAutistic Schreeching 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My only suggestion is to filter out so many population control posts. I mean, I don't want to come here every day and see three different posts about how bad "undesirables" are breeding.

[–]ReverseEngineer77r/globalcollapse 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

How about "Sweetheart, stop being a cunt." Does that count as abusive language? I got that one from Toktomi yesterday.

If you are going to try to do this with "rules", you need a rule against subscribers being disrespectful to other subscribers in language and tone.

Then there are the misanthropes who HOPE everyone will die, and soon. Then they come up with ways to get them to die faster (drop a nuke on them!). Is this productive discussion?

Again though, I don't see this kind of problem as soluble with "rules". You just need to use good CFS (Common F****** Sense) when moderating.

[–]MrVisible/r/DoomsdayCult 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Oh, was that in the thread where you posted about how you appropriated /u/toktomi 's (and several other peoples') comments, posted them on your blog, and were arguing with them in absentia?

The one where you mistook toktomi for a mod and insulted him for being asleep at the wheel?

Gee, I wonder why toktomi would have said that.

Please remember; someone insulting you isn't equivalent to someone wishing death on hundreds of thousands of people. I know that to you it seems the same, but to the rest of the world, there's a difference.

[–]ReverseEngineer77r/globalcollapse 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I didn't mistake Toktomi for a mod, there were a bunch of mods listed with him.

You also are a namecaller, just slightly more polite, calling people rude, sad, cowardly, etc. You don't argue to topic, you go ad hom.

Nothing was done "in absentia". I was totally upfront about my blog, provided a link to it here and a link back to here from the Diner.

You are making the most ridiculous arguments I have yet to read here on Reddit, and that is saying a lot.

[–]MrVisible/r/DoomsdayCult 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Feel free to put me on ignore, along with everyone else who disagrees with you, then.

[–]ReverseEngineer77r/globalcollapse 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't put people on ignore for disagreeing with me. I put them on ignore because they are impolite and can't stick to the topic.

[–]new_browser_no_pwd 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The comments that bother me are those that are designed, however crudely, to incite racial hatred.

Under UK law this offence (against incitement to racial hatred) refers to:

1 deliberately provoking hatred of a racial group

  1. distributing racist material to the public

  2. making inflammatory public speeches

  3. creating racist websites on the Internet

  4. inciting inflammatory rumours about an individual or an ethnic group, for the purpose of spreading racial discontent.

'Diversity is racism''s posts - a username that clearly implies the racist concept of 'white genocide' - tended to fall between 3, 5, and 1. He would usually fail to make any specific racist point, however when taken in the context of his posting history, his intent quickly became apparent.

This sort of behaviour, imvho, is very different to either simple differences in opinion, or opinions borne out of more or less ignorance. Personally I think adopting that incitement to racial hatred standard would be good. there may be other similar standards which might apply to some of the other examples of posts you posted above, not sure.

[–]Ex-humanistGreen Fascism: formerly EugeneVDebian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wait, are comments blaming overpopulation on food aid allowed under this new rule? What about comments advocating a return to a Malthusian equilibrium?

[–]akabalik_ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Unban /u/diversity_is_racism, for the entertainment value!

[–]Whereigohereiam 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What about relegation of:

active misanthropy to /R/misanthropy By this I mean advocating for human extinction as a desirable outcome.

And hatred of children and parents to /r/antinatalism Without kids we go extinct. Without kids raised by conscientous well-informed people, how can we expect to ameliorate the mindless overconsumption that is part of the collapse etiology? Reproducing below the replacement rate is desirable (0, 1, or 2 kids max), and planned reproduction above replacement does have dubious moral justification.

People can post misanthropic and antinatalist comments to their hearts content on those dedicated subs. Please just not here since it's not based on fact, and is ultimately divisive and embarrassing to this sub.

I agree with the guidance to operate with empathy. I'm just not sure how to enforce it beyond rule 8 without censorship that would hamper discussion and create a kind of fear from thought police.

[–]Barbosa003 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Having been lead admin for IIDB (Internet Infidels Discussion Board) and subsequently FRDB (Free Ratio Discussion Board), we used to split out the unwanted off track posts into its own thread or moved them to an unseen by the populace trash compactor. We used a strike system for the users. Five strikes and you're banned, but it depended on how bad or rough any strike was. Moderators were given a fairly broad way to mod their sections. When problems or questions arose then, it was kicked to Admin and eventually me, if needed which, was most of the time. The simplest rule was "Don't be a poopiehead." A few examples were listed. Those who became and maintained poopieheadism were given temporary bans and eventually permaban. Some of the examples was ad hom attacks, moving the goal posts to skew the topic, simply going off topic (these were split to its own thread and not really a banable offense). This subreddit invokes much feels. No different than IIDB and the endless debating of religion. Emotions run high here. If an OP wants intellectual discussion it MUST be put in the title or OP. This means the examples listed above would not be allowed and deleted. It's fairly easy, but moderation will have to be stepped up. If a topic comes up here without the appellation of "intellectual discussion" label, then honestly, fair game for everyone...except being a poopiehead. Insults should not allowed here. Give the user three strikes or they're out for 30 days. Two more strike and they're out permanently. Split posts (if they can be split) that go off topic to their own thread. Shit happens and no real need for a ban or strike. Being a poopiehead is what your dealing with here. Define what a poopiehead is. Find a system that works, test it and adapt when necessary. This is one subreddit, not IIDB/FRDB with 50+ sections and nearly 100 moderators and 10 Admin and thousands of post per day. Make the rules easy to understand. Make few of them. Give the Mods discretion yet banable offenses a vote by all Mods/Admin.

[–]once_said_blah -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (19子コメント)

If words offend people, the problem lies with them.

I think everyone is a cunt though.

[–]ReverseEngineer77r/globalcollapse 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (18子コメント)

You may think that, but if you call somebody that in a bar you will get punched in the face. It's no different on the internet, just you can't be physically attacked. It's a form of ad hom argument, and it takes the discussion off the topic and into a Napalm Contest of insults. It totally disrupts the flow of real information discussing a given topic.

You have to maintain a degree of politeness and etiquette, even if you seriously disagree with someone and think he/she is an "idiot", "moron", "imbecile", "asshole", "cunt" or whatever other ad hom namecalling you devolve to.

People who do this simply have lost the argument from the get go. It's the mark of a vacant mind.

[–]once_said_blah -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (17子コメント)

but if you call somebody that in a bar you will get punched in the face

Not where I'm from.

[–]ReverseEngineer77r/globalcollapse -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (16子コメント)

I don't live in your neighborhood. In mine, you would be. When you write on the internet, you have to realize that everyone does not have the same (lack of) values you do. So you need to reach a common level of polite discourse if you want to stay on topic. That doesn't happen when people start name calling.

[–]once_said_blah -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (15子コメント)

Life is a lot easier to handle if you assume everyone is a cunt until proven otherwise.

And to add to my point - once you start banning words, it's not a stretch to start banning ideas. And then you become r/politics or some shite like that. This sub is close to the '50K subscribers to shit' threshold, whereby the sub grows so big it attracts delicate little flowers that can't handle seeing the 4 letters that spell out c-u-n-t.

[–]ReverseEngineer77r/globalcollapse 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (13子コメント)

It's not a question of being able to "handle" the word cunt. It's about keeping a discussion on topic. You need some decorum or it just devolves to people insulting each other.

[–]once_said_blah 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (12子コメント)

If someone is being an arse, I reserve the right to call them out on it.

[–]ReverseEngineer77r/globalcollapse 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (11子コメント)

If you reserve that right, you simply destroy the discussion.

[–]once_said_blah -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (10子コメント)

If someone is acting the maggot then there is no discussion surely?

[–]ReverseEngineer77r/globalcollapse 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Your opinion of someone "acting the maggot" is not necessarily everyone's opinion. If you think somebody is wrong, dissect their arguments, don't call them names. It's a weak argument to go Ad Hom, and it just makes you look bad.

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.[2]

Fallacious ad hominem reasoning is normally categorized as an informal fallacy,[3][4][5] more precisely as a genetic fallacy, a subcategory of fallacies of irrelevance.

[–]Sekenre 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not if you want to have friends

/s