557
558

IamA 19-year-old conscientious objector. After 173 days in prison, I was released last Saturday. AMA! (self.IAmA)

Triplecon が 投稿

My short bio: I am Risto Miinalainen, a 19-year-old upper secondary school student and conscientious objector from Finland. Finland has compulsory military service, though women, Jehovah's Witnesses and people from Åland are not required to serve. A civilian service option exists for those who refuse to serve in the military, but this service lasts more than twice as long as the shortest military service. So-called total objectors like me refuse both military and civilian service, which results in a sentence of 173 days. I sent a notice of refusal in late 2015, was sentenced to 173 days in prison in spring 2016 and did my time in Suomenlinna prison, Helsinki, from the 4th of October 2016 to the 25th of March 2017. In addition to my pacifist beliefs, I made my decision to protest against the human rights violations of Finnish conscription: international protectors of human rights such as Amnesty International and the United Nations Human Rights Committee have for a long time demanded that Finland shorten the length of civilian service to match that of military service and that the possibility to be completely exempted from service based on conscience be given to everybody, not just a single religious group - Amnesty even considers Finnish total objectors prisoners of conscience. An individual complaint about my sentence will be lodged to the European Court of Human Rights in the near future. AMA! Information about Finnish total objectors

My Proof: A document showing that I have completed my prison sentence (in Finnish) A picture of me to compare with for example this War Resisters' International page or this news article (in Finnish)

上位 200 件のコメント全て表示する 312
並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]TimmyTwoSmokes 134 ポイント135 ポイント  (12子コメント)

Will this affect your chances of getting work in the future?

[–]Jaroneko 74 ポイント75 ポイント  (8子コメント)

To a degree, yes. It might hamper a career in a place he probably wouldn't fit in anyway and might even make him more appealing to a like minded employer.

Many of our life choices do.

[–]IZEDx 46 ポイント47 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Wonderfully vague

[–]Esoteric_Erric 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

What do you mean? He was very specific.

"to a degree" "might" "probably" "might" are all in there.

[–]mrglubglub 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

A JW will hire you.

[–]blofly 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Jehovas Witnesses will hire anybody, though.

[–]LocktheTaskbah 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can you ride a bike in hurricane-force winds while wearing a suit? Great you're hired!

[–]Jaroneko 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well a university already has, but I'll prolly be back on the market in a few years after we move to another country, so it's nice to know I've got that going for me. ;)

コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

    [–]gatkinso315 141 ポイント142 ポイント  (89子コメント)

    What was wrong with the civilian service?

    [–]Triplecon[S] 157 ポイント158 ポイント  (87子コメント)

    To me, civilian service would have felt like I'm silently approving the system. In my opinion, conscription is not a very efficient way of maintaining an army and civilian service is just an extension of the same system. By choosing total objection I wanted to bring the issues of our system to public discussion and feel like I've accomplished something.

    [–]Phenomenon42 65 ポイント66 ポイント  (12子コメント)

    Can you talk about what the civil service options were? Generally, at least in USA, civil service isn't about "approving" the government's strengths, its about acknowledging their glaring failures and trying to fix it, in some small way. Or make a real difference in a person's life or a communities quality of life. Often these changes are incredibly small compared to the problem, but surely its still worth doing.

    I get the argument that "the government shouldn't force me to do anything". But on the other hand, speaking broadly, a mandatory term of civil service, can not only make the community better, but serve to broaden the individuals perspective. Perhaps a middle class person, gaining a real understanding of what it means to be impoverished? This is an example, and may not be accurate to Finland's system, or your situation.

    [–]Triplecon[S] 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (11子コメント)

    Typical ways to complete civilian service include education facilities, nursing homes, congregations, hospitals, political ministries etc. I very much agree that performing civilian service can be a very helpful option both to the service place and the person serving, especially if the place is related to one's career plans. If only our system was more equal, I could definitely have chosen civilian service instead of total objection.

    [–]MySockHurts 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    How can the system become more equal, in your opinion?

    [–]iskraiskra 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Probably reducing the civil service time to that of the military conscription (he/she said it was about double)

    [–]Vaynor 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    He. They said women aren't conscripted.

    [–]snorlz 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    guessing time length. that civilian service is like twice as long as the military one is mentioned multiple times in his intro

    [–]HandMeMyThinkingPipe 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I would imagine not exempting half of the population is a good start

    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

      [–]SlapHappyRodriguez 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (2子コメント)

      If only our system was more equal, I could definitely have chosen civilian service instead of total objection.

      equality is often very difficult to define and often difficult to achieve.

      do you derive "equality" from the amount of time put into it?
      is it possible that others would see time as inequitable as the military work would be physically harder than work in education or nursing homes?

      [–]Orionite 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      If there is a civil option then there is no reason why there should be an exemption for otherwise able bodied citizens, like women or members of religious groups. So, reduce civil service time to match military service and make it mandatory for everyone to do one or the other.

      [–]drewts86 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      So, reduce civil service time to match military service and make it mandatory for everyone to do one or the other.

      You do this and you'll have much fewer people opting for the military. Keeping them disparate probably filters the necessary amount of people in each service to fulfill all of the roles. You make it even and there might not be enough conscripts to fulfill all of the roles in the military.

      [–]snatchrodriguez 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Wow. It sounds like you had a chance to do some real good for the community, and instead decided to be a burden to it. To be honest, this just feels selfish to me. Have you considered that the risks undertaken when performing military service might be the reason why those that opt for that are allowed a shorter service?

      [–]TzunSu 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      That's how i read it too. You're not risking your life in the service, so you serve longer, makes perfect sense to me.

      [–]Grandpas_Spells 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (7子コメント)

      To me, civilian service would have felt like I'm silently approving the system. In my opinion, conscription is not a very efficient way of maintaining an army and civilian service is just an extension of the same system.

      Would you mind clarifying this? I assume your religious objection is not due to the inefficiency of conscription, but rather that war is against your religion regardless of whether the army in question is conscripted or professional.

      It seems like civilian service is a reasonable alternative for religious objectors. The "system" is one which acknowledges the necessity of a military, but does not force individuals to engage in war if their religion prohibits it.

      You've obviously put a lot of thought into this, I'm just not sure I follow. My dad was a CO back in the day, but there was no alternative civilian service option in my country.

      [–]Triplecon[S] 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (6子コメント)

      Even though there is an alternative service option, those serving in the military can complete their service twice as fast. As if this wasn't unequal enough, only non-Jehowah's Witness men from somewhere else than Åland are required to serve. I do not want to support a discriminating system by becoming a part of it.

      [–]TzunSu 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      You don't see it as unequal that those who serve under arms risk death, while you don't if you serve in a civilian capacity?

      [–]Grandpas_Spells 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Even though there is an alternative service option, those serving in the military can complete their service twice as fast.

      That seems fair. The service they're involved in is much more dangerous and so should be shorter than the safer civilian one. It also discourages shenanigans from fake objectors. Many more people would opt out of a military option if the civilian one was the same duration.

      As if this wasn't unequal enough, only non-Jehowah's Witness men from somewhere else than Åland are required to serve.

      This is accommodating a religious objection, not punishing people who don't share that religion.

      I do not want to support a discriminating system by becoming a part of it.

      Accommodating religious objection is not discrimination. I get the sense you haven't thought this through or aren't being entirely honest.

      [–]zfoose 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      The military may complete there service twice as fast, but when deployed they are on the job 24-7. If you look at it from hours worked and personal risk involved, it looks like a fair system.

      [–]proweruser 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Nobody doing mandatory service is going to deploy.

      Should Finland be attack they'd have to defend it, but let's be real, in that case everybody who can hold a gun would have to as well.

      [–]tentric 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      So rather than be free you go to prision? Bravo. JW in South Korea wish they could be so brave. They don't get a civil service option - they go straight to prison with likelihood of going straight back when they get called to duty again.

      コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

        [–]no-mans-land 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (8子コメント)

        You know you share a border with Russia and that you've fought with them before right

        [–]Cause_and_affect 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Seems like a pretty efficient way to keep an army, you've had consistent numbers the last several decades and that will continue as long as conscription exists. That's the point of it.

        [–]PerennialPhilosopher 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (49子コメント)

        It takes guys to do what you did... I spent 56 days incarcerated and it was terrible. I hope your sacrifice makes a difference for others!

        [–]BeerDrinkinGreg 54 ポイント55 ポイント  (47子コメント)

        Pretty sure Scandanavian prisons are slightly less intense than the rest of the world. Probably not as big a deal as if he did time in the United States or Russia.

        [–]PerennialPhilosopher 33 ポイント34 ポイント  (42子コメント)

        Well giving up that much time from your life sucks no matter where it happens

        [–]GoodGuyAgain 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (7子コメント)

        except he benefits from programs of the state, and doesn't give back.

        [–]PerennialPhilosopher 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (6子コメント)

        They don't have taxes?

        [–]jacksalssome 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (5子コメント)

        Do you pay taxes a prison?

        [–]PerennialPhilosopher 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I believe you do in the US if you still have income. But I was referring to outside the prison as the person I was responding to was

        [–]jacksalssome 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Think it as an extension to your question.

        [–]nill0c 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Probably, if you make an income, or buy anything at the commissary (with VAT anyway).

        [–]ilmagnoon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        In the US prisoners are taxed on their income.

        [–]BeerDrinkinGreg 40 ポイント41 ポイント  (32子コメント)

        He was in "Prison" from October to March. In Finland. He would probably have been indoors at his parents place all that time anyway. Have you read about Finnish prisons? Once they left the doors unlocked before the guards went home. (I'll just let both parts of that sentence kick in for a second) You know what the inmates did? They baked brownies.

        This kid is acting like he was in the Attica prison riots.

        Finland has a very small tax base, but very lavish social services, (by our standards) which is a good thing. Their education system is very well funded, along with their healthcare services, but their military isn't exactly used for "spreading democracy"©, it's used for spreading salt on roadways, mostly.

        So how does the government pay for it? Well, instead of paying grown adults a high salary to do menial labour like drive plow trucks and shovel the steps of Parliament, they draft kids to do it. Heck, I think it's a great idea. As long as these drafted "soldiers" aren't used for invasion, (who's Finland gonna invade, Russia?) I really don't have a problem with civil service. Most of Europe does it. Heck, most of the world does it. The only countries that don't have some sort of draft are in the Americas.

        [–]thesuperdoge 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (10子コメント)

        The brownie baking was Swedish prisoners.

        They also built a fort made out of blankets and watched a movie.

        Sauce in Swedish. http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article10937921.ab

        [–]Veni_Vidi_Legi 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        who's Finland gonna invade, Russia?

        Ahh, a reversal of the Russian Reversal!

        [–]snek-queen 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (7子コメント)

        Ireland, Italy, France, Croatia, Czech Republic, Germany, Latvia, Luxembourg, Malta, The Netherlands, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, and the UK don't really have any form of draft or conscription, but please tell me more about how most of Europe has it.

        [–]PeacefulSequoia 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        You can add Belgium to that list

        [–]cannotfoolowls 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        It seems like a big part of the world does NOT have conscription.

        Green: Countries that don't have any armed service.

        Blue: Countries that don't have conscription.

        Purple: Countries that have active draft system, but less than 20% of the whole age group (include men or women), or 40% of the whole men age group if only male are conscripted are compelled to enlist.

        Orange: Countries where the current government is planning to abolish conscription.

        Red: Countries that have conscription.

        Sweden has reeintroduced it, recently, and France, Germany and iirc Poland are considering reintroducing it.

        [–]BeerDrinkinGreg 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Greece, Turkey, Cyprus, Finland, Austria, Armenia, Azerbaijan.

        Italy used to draft until 2004, and it may come back if their economy demands it. Hell, they used to Shanghai anyone with an Italian name at the airports under the age of 27. Israel did it too.

        Most mandatory military service isn't used militarily. You generally don't use draftees for operations. You use them for labour. Cut the grass, shovel the snow, unload this truck and put the boxes over there. It's cheap labour so a nation can use its limited fiscal means to pay for education and healthcare.

        Scandinavian countries do it for that reason, and to instill a sense of pride and duty into their kids. Don't think for a second Germany wouldn't love to have a National organization promoting this, but was forbidden to do so by a few treaties signed around 1945.

        コメントをもっと表示する (4 返事)

          [–]kaswing 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          1) as other people have pointed out, that wasn't Finland.

          2) others having it worse does not mean that taking away a person's freedom is just.

          [–]Galactic_Z 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (7子コメント)

          He was still incarcerated, held in one place against his will for refusing to join a military.

          [–]himswim28 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          for refusing to join a military.

          No, for refusing to do a required 12 months of civil service to his country. He could have done 6 months armed, or 12 months un-armed, or 6 months confined. He choose the confined period.

          [–]Galactic_Z 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Not no, his liberty is restricted regardless of his choice.

          Compulsory service is still compulsory service, something I don't believe in unless a nation is being attacked.

          It's also a sexist institution, women are not required to serve.

          コメントをもっと表示する (5 返事)

            [–]HandMeMyThinkingPipe 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            The US has an option for a draft and every male has to register for "selective service" in case the government decides to institute a draft. But we haven't had a draft since Vietnam here so we effectively don't have a draft.

            コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

              [–]letuswatchtvinpeace 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Looked up that prison and basically he went to camp for 173 days. Try serving that time in the States or better yet, Russia, and then I will be impressed with his stance.

              [–]Innundator 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Scandinavian prison is probably better than living in a lot of US Urban centers, let alone US prisons

              コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

                [–]PersonOfLowInterest 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                In Finland this prison time does not have to be spent in a prison. You may also just take a sort of bracelet that tracks you for the duration of time you would spend there. So you could, in a sense, spend it at home, studying, doing whatever you want as long as you don't break the time rules.

                [–]GoodGuyAgain 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                and your opinion re: conscription, is very efficient. everyone serves, learns skills, etc.

                the only thing you accomplished is going to jail and showing that you don't deserve the benefits of living in your country.

                [–]anonymous_being 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Agreed. Well done!

                [–]shgkdshg 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                How long is the military service and how long the civilian service? Seems like 6 months of prison are basically like summer camp instead, considering what I heard about prisons in Finland.

                コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

                  [–]newvictim 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  It is a Jehovah Witness thing, they are politically neutral.

                  [–]manicbiguy 69 ポイント70 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  what socio-economic class are you? rich, poor, middle class etc?

                  [–]Triplecon[S] 74 ポイント75 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  Middle class, I guess. My family has never been too wealthy, but I don't think we're poor either. I am obviously still relatively young and my future isn't dead set yet, but an academic degree is definitely part of my plan. I will finish upper secondary school in a few months and getting a place in a university should be no problem with my study results.

                  [–]SheepGoesBaaaa 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Middle class is hard to pick in Finland I found. Everyone has a Sauna. Only the poshest people I know outside of Suomi have a Sauna

                  [–]penguiin_ 49 ポイント50 ポイント  (10子コメント)

                  How was it in prison? I hear prisons in Finland, Sweden, Norway etc are relatively nice. Also, how did your fellow inmates treat you when they heard what you were in for?

                  [–]Triplecon[S] 98 ポイント99 ポイント  (9子コメント)

                  Suomenlinna prison is a so-called open prison, which means that inmates are relatively low-security and moving (mostly) freely in the prison perimeter was permitted within the daily timetable's limitations. Most Finnish prisons are "closed" and correspond more to a layperson's view of a prison.

                  As for other prisoners' reactions, I never really got anything too negative. Some thought I am fighting windmills, some thought my choice was admirable, but no one was hostile towards me due to my reason of imprisonment. Most seemed to think that I didn't belong in prison, but nevertheless respected me standing up for my beliefs.

                  [–]Phobos15 32 ポイント33 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                  What kind of crimes did the other inmates in the open prison commit?

                  [–]Triplecon[S] 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  We had all kinds of people from sexual criminals to drug dealers and white-collar criminals. My long-time roommate was convicted of a white-collar crime, but the house I lived in also had people with a history of violence and/or sexual crime. There was even a triple murderer in Suomenlinna a few years ago, though I (luckily) wasn't there then.

                  [–]ellis1884uk 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  how common is it for people to refuse? was there anyone else in the prison in your situation?

                  コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                    [–]DukeNukem_AMA 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    I just recently went to Suomenlinna and I didn't realize there was a prison there. Where is it in relation to the ferry launch? I walked all around the islands and didn't find anything like that, but I guess we must have been within a few hundred meters of one another last month.

                    コメントをもっと表示する (4 返事)

                      [–]CuervoJones 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      Are there a lot of J.W.s in Finland?

                      [–]kevin11040 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (8子コメント)

                      How long was the mandatory service term?

                      [–]Triplecon[S] 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (7子コメント)

                      Military service lasts 165, 225 or 347 days, while civilian service always lasts 347 days. My 173 days were calculated from the last number: the sentence of a total objector equals half of the civilian service left rounded down.

                      [–]JRemyF 50 ポイント51 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                      The reality of the service timeline makes it hard for me to understand your decision in a practical sense. I understand that ideologically there isn't a difference between a year of conscripted service and 3 years as it is in Israel. But half a year of military service? That's barely enough time to complete any sort of meaningful training here in the US.

                      What exactly does civil service entail? And if the option exists for people with pacifist beliefs like yourself I find it hard to understand why it's so objectionable.

                      Would you rather Finland have an all volunteer force? Would it be acceptable if conscription was more universally applied (e.g. Women had to serve as well?)

                      How do you reconcile your pacifist beliefs with the reality of an increasingly aggressive Russia on the border?

                      [–]snorlz 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      That's barely enough time to complete any sort of meaningful training here in the US.

                      guessing the training is toned way downs cause its meant for everyone to have some basic idea, whereas the US is all volunteers who are trying to become professional soldiers

                      [–]liquorandwhores94 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      Another question he could be asking himself is how can he reconcile joining a military force unwillingly while NATO has been ramping up military activity at the Russian border? He might become a part of what many see as a very foolhardy decision.

                      [–]JRemyF 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      That's certainly a fair point. Not claiming any one side is perfect but I see that as a response to Russia's annexation of Crimea and proxy war in the eastern reaches of Ukraine.

                      [–]GetAtMeWolf 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      Is that 347 days of service or is that 347 days total including days off? If it is the latter, how many days off does this include and what wage would be paid (versus your national minimum wage).

                      Personally I don't agree with you. They don't force you into the military by having the civil service option. And these would both act at great programs for giving a bit of real-world work experience to those entering the workforce.

                      [–]TheRog0 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Days off are included in the number, and payment is way below minimum wage. For the first ~6months you get 5.50€/day (including days off). The pay is increased after the first 165 days, anf increased once more for the last ~three months if you serve 347 days.

                      Usually you have the weekend off, but not always. During my 347-service it was probably something like 2 weekends off - 1 weekend in. You also get an ammount of days to spend (roughly one day per month served). You apply for days off and if the Officer in charge allows the dates you applied for, you get to use them. You can also earn additional days off by exemplary performances in various activities or extrordinary behaviour. A friend of mine got one day for being mentioned in the news when he and his friends helped people carry their luggage off of a train that malfunctioned for example.

                      I hope that answers you questions.

                      [–]GoddamnKeyserSoze 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Aww, that's humane of them to round that down instead of up.

                      [–]TheBrownBrownie 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                      Do you regret your decision? If you had th choice would you choose to go to prison again? Thanks for doing this AMA

                      [–]TomHicks 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Do you resent that women are not conscripted? Do female Finns support male-only conscription in your experience? Why weren't you sentenced to home detention? I thought that was the current standard punishment for draft dodging.

                      [–]TooGnar 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      Would you have made the same choice, if you would of had to serve in a "closed" prison?

                      [–]Arimer 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      That's what i'd like to know. . Free meals, free housing, free to do as you please on campus.

                      What part of this was a personal sacrifice that I should feel sympathetic towards? I mean i understand the objections but don't act like it was a big deal going to what is basically summer camp.

                      [–]sirmidor 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      As someone wholly unfamiliar with Finland, what's the reason that women don't have join up, either military or civilian service?
                      Is there any sentiment among the general public that they should or not, what's the general opinion?

                      [–]shigensis 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      I'm more intrigued why jehovas witnesses are exempt?

                      [–]fatmoonbear 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      So are jehovas witnesses exempt from the civil service as well? Because that seems a little backwards.

                      [–]nylus 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                      Why are there different lengths of military service? What does the non military service consist of? Why do you not want to be of service to the country you are part of, even in a peaceful capacity?

                      [–]moptic 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      I wondered the same. Looks like if you just want to do the bare minimum you can, if you want any technical skills or promotion, that's when you do the longer stints.

                      From wiki

                      Privates who are trained for tasks not requiring special skills serve for five and half months. In technically demanding tasks the time of service is eight and half or (in some cases, such as those selected for NCO or officer training) eleven and half months.

                      [–]nylus 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      If they teach you a skill they keep you longer. I haven't seen any of this I find unfair yet. The extended domestic service is a little messed up, but I also don't think OPs method of dealing with the problem will ever see results, as the government has already planned for people like him to be art of the system. They could implement a training program in prison and keep you there up to a year after they give you a skill and feed and house you for a year after you leave your parents home, that would improve it certainly ;)

                      [–]moptic 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Yea, again from Wiki:

                      Non-military service has a fixed length of 347 days and consists of basic training and the actual service. The basic training takes place in the Lapinjärvi civilian service centre and lasts 28 days. During basic training, the serviceman is given instruction in first aid, peace education, internationalism, and non-violent resistance. In addition, some trainees receive an anti-oil leak or non-violent activity training.

                      During the basic training, the civilian servicemen have training during weekdays from 8.00 until 16.00. On Fridays, the service usually ends before noon, while weekends are off. The servicemen are allowed to leave the service center freely during their free time, and may, if they wish, live at their homes during the basic training.

                      So basically, if you want to do the basic military stuff you get a short sharp service, and a couple months recovery. If you do civilian service it takes longer as you basically have a cushy government job for just under a year (+38 days holiday on top). Seems pretty reasonable.

                      [–]tissotti 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      The general rule is that after 3 month basic training the ones selected to tasks requiring special skills serve 12 months. Drivers of near any vehicle (VIP drivers might serve only 9 months), special forces, officer trainees etc will serve 12 months. In a navy base some 10% will only serve 6 months, while the general rule is closer to 50% will serve 6 months across all conscripts.

                      Civil service lasts 12 months and consist work in a near any nonprofit organization selected by the civil servant and accepted by the nonprofit organization. Be it a library, hospital, church, charity or similar. They have the same rights as conscripts, like free food, accommodation, healthcare, and workwear, as well as holiday travel. Though, in general free accommodation isn't as well abide by in civil serve as it is for conscripts. Government can grant 250€/month to those not living with their parents.

                      [–]Crumpehh 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Probably not what your ama is about, but can you describe Finish prison? I'm from the US and I've heard prison is so much different in Scandinavian countries.

                      [–]vectorama 37 ポイント38 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                      So total objectors also object to the length of service of the civilian obligation or to the entire thing?

                      I was in the US military (obviously volunteer) but realize that it's not for everyone. I do however think that a civilian service requirement would be an incredible thing for people in my country from the age of 18-20.

                      [–]Triplecon[S] 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      Some total objectors object to mandatory service itself. My main gripes with civilian service are its punitive length and the fact that I feel civilian service supports conscription, but motives vary a lot between objectors.

                      About requiring civilian service from everyone: I feel like finding meaningful work for everyone might be a problem, especially since forcing someone to work does not motivate them to do their best. Human rights conventions are also pretty strict on these kinds of systems: forced civilian service is generally only accepted if it is either a conscience-based alternative to mandatory military service or if serving is a normal civic obligation.

                      [–]eliottruelove 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      Are your pacifist beliefs philosophical or religious? I agree that JWs being the only religious group to be exempt may seem unfair, but if your pacifist beliefs were based on the bible, couldn't you just copy-paste the scriptures JWs use to explain why you are exempt as well?

                      [–]Triplecon[S] 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      My pacifism is philosophical, but even if my choice was based on religion, it wouldn't help at all. The exemption of the JWs is actually written in law: only people who can prove that they are Jehovah's Witnesses can be exempted. Interestingly, JWs nowadays allow their members to perform civilian service, but this has led to no changes in Finnish legislation; JWs can still get exempted from all service.

                      [–]ilmagnoon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      You wish we had a program here where we'd be forced to work for the government for a set period of time?

                      If that kind of shit had been implemented when I was 18-20 I would have peaced the fuck out of this place.

                      [–]125cm3 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Thanks for posting- interesting story! Why exactly do you believe it isn't your duty to help defend your country? Would you join the military if a credible threat to democracy in Finland or elsewhere appeared, e.g. 1939 Hilter 2.0 or if Russia invaded Belarus or Sweden?

                      [–]CannibalCrowley 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Do you think that you would've made the same decision if the prison system was more harsh and dangerous (like it is in many other countries)?

                      [–]wfaulk 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Some of the founding fathers of the United States were very opposed to a volunteer military because they felt that it created a class of mercenaries amongst the poor, and thought that all people should serve to avoid that situation. My observation is that poor people in the US are disproportionately represented in the US all-volunteer military, so their concern seems to have been at least somewhat warranted.

                      Do you feel that removing compulsory service might have a similar effect in Finland?

                      [–]TheNaughtyMonkey 69 ポイント70 ポイント  (23子コメント)

                      Sorry, but I don't have any sympathy.

                      It is part of your country that you provide service to the nation. As you have a non-military option (and Finland's military has only been deployed in peacekeeping operations) I don't see how this is a moral issue.

                      You are objecting to national service, not military actions. Sorry, but my view is that you should have sucked it up, and done what every other Finn has done.

                      I suppose you could have left Finland, and moved to another country that was more closely aligned with your personal views of national service. Was that an option?

                      [–]randomlygeneral 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      I steongly disagree with you. In my opinion the fact that women and JW dont have to do a military/civil service in itself is unfair and if you agree you would have to stand up and make it a point to not comply with an unfair treatment of men/non JW.

                      [–]16apec 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      While it may not be a moral issue to you, it is to him. He was given the option to join a military he doesn't believe in, or support the system which forces people to join said military. If the state asked you to help perpetuate their violent agenda by picking up a gun for them, or told you "Oh you don't like fighting, do paperwork for us instead". You're supporting their agenda either way. You're still assisting them.

                      [–]corelatedfish 36 ポイント37 ポイント  (11子コメント)

                      It didn't sound like he was asking for sympathy.

                      [–]no-mans-land 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (8子コメント)

                      Sure he is, why else would he post this.

                      [–]corelatedfish 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Maybe to spread public awareness of a situation most people are unaware of?

                      [–]phailhaus 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Because it's an AMA, so this is a chance for us to ask him questions about his decision?

                      [–]bornbrews 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      To answer questions about the choice and bring awareness to an issue that he feels strongly enough about to go to prison?

                      [–]NYCmichael 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      Possibly to bring awareness or just talk about his situation. Its self serving but I dont think he was searching for sympathy per se

                      [–]YutRahKill11 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      He's blatantly looking for attention and pats on the back for "sticking it to the man."

                      [–]corelatedfish 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      I don't see that kind of pride in his tale.

                      [–]bermudi86 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      He is also free to choose what he chose​. Conscious objection is also an option and he dealt with the consequences. Now, having payed his dues, he wants to talk about it and bring attention to the fact that a forced choice is no choice at all. He has a right to bring attention to what he thinks is an issue and he is playing by the rules.

                      So, what is you god damn problem then?

                      [–]perpterts 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Completely agree with you. OP is attacking this 19-year old in a way that he doesn't deserve. I think its great that he wants to stand up for a just cause at his age. We are a progressive society, regardless of country. The biases that STILL continue to exist today need to be abolished and to just tell this boy to "suck it up and deal with it" is pretty ridiculous. Maybe OP likes being a slave to the system but obviously this boy does not. We need less people like OP and more people like this 19 y.o in the world now more than ever.

                      [–]cerhio 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Yeah I could completely get behind someone's choice to abstain from killing another person but getting out of shovelling snow?

                      [–]axisofelvis 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Firstly, I don't think he is here looking for sympathy. Secondly, just because everyone "sucks it up" doesn't make it right.

                      [–]khurley424 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Not only that, but I'll wager that the military service will foster useful life skills, develop life long friends, and prime Finnish youth for successful careers. Plus, the civilian option was on the table. It's likely twice as long for a very good reason: to encourage military service so Finnish citizens have a sense of discipline, pride, and respect.

                      This sounds more to me like a young person feeling a need to rebel and making a poor choice.

                      コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                        [–]FreshLennon 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (6子コメント)

                        I don't know why, but even though you were imprisoned for refusing to be forced into the military, I just can't get behind you on this. I mean it sounds horrible on paper and I may just be an ignorant American, but it just doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. I actually wish we had a civil service program here in the states. Are you getting any pushback from friends or family? How do people in Finland view your decision?

                        [–]TheNaughtyMonkey 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        It wasn't about the military. There are non-military options for National Service.

                        [–]FreshLennon 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        I know this, but OP believes that joining the non military civil service is in a way supporting the military option. I am very familiar with the civil service option and I support it.

                        [–]jaydizzleforshizzle 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        I think I would tend to agree he said that civilian service would be less than a year(347 days) that's nothing.

                        [–]FreshLennon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        A German friend of mine chose to serve his time in the civil service volunteering in beautiful Northern Ireland. It's where I met him actually.

                        [–]PolaroidBook 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        A lot of people seem to be suggesting that the required service is OK because there's an option for civil service. Firstly, the length of civil service is punitive.

                        Secondly, his compliance in this way would legitimatise a system he fundamentally disagrees with.

                        Consider also that his ideas of best serving his country are different to yours.

                        [–]ilmagnoon 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        You wish we had a program here where we'd be forced to work for the government for a set period of time? You must be quite the statist.

                        [–]archiebh 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        What did you enjoy about prison? Is there anything at all that you miss?

                        [–]slelham 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Did your friends family try to stop you from submitting the letter and try convincing you to just the military time?

                        [–]faelun 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Does this count as having a criminal record? and does this in any way impact your capacity to obtain employment? What did your family think about this?

                        [–]Dethdealer668 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Why do you concienciously object?

                        [–]itsjustluck 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        How did you spend your time in prison?

                        [–]Hyedwtditpm 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        can you reject to pay taxes too?

                        [–]klevenisms204 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        what do you think of Patrik Laine?

                        [–]ElizabethHopeParker 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Is it because you object to killing someone? So what would you do if a man were to come to your house to kill you or someone you loved? Would you defend yourself or just be a victim?

                        Note: I don't really object to your beliefs, I just want a clarification.

                        [–]Double_Down_On_Dumb 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Are you at all concerned that the next time you engaged in intercourse, your mate may conscientiously object to the fact you have no balls?

                        [–]TylerDurdenSoapTM 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        I hear Finnish prisons are like retirement homes... any truth in this?

                        [–]commentist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Hi . How do you feel about your Finnish ancestor who fight of Russian ?

                        [–]C137-Morty 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (8子コメント)

                        How do you feel about to winter war which took place during WW2 between finland and russia. If your country were to be invaded would you fight to keep it?

                        [–]bangorthebarbarian 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                        They do have a professional military.

                        [–]Guuggel 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                        what?

                        [–]bangorthebarbarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        I know, shocking, right? Russia right on your doorstep, the rest of NATO a sea away.

                        [–]Guuggel 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        I am Finnish and I have no idea what you are trying to say

                        [–]jeepdave 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                        I doubt he would fight to keep a bagel if you took it from him.

                        [–]NotSure8150 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                        And what? You defend your country by wearing a red hat made in china?

                        [–]jeepdave 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        I defend my country with a gun.

                        [–]00flip34 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (9子コメント)

                        Conscientious objector to paying taxes too ? I don't like taxes,but I pay them.

                        [–]fanglord 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Eh I kinda feel that's an unfair comparison, being made to physically do something you don't want to for a year with legal consequences for objection is abit ehhhh.

                        Like tax is generated from doing whatever you do normally. It sucks but then you're not forced to clean up shit as a healthcare worker for a year.

                        I should add, I have not read into the actual options but for a years service, I'd imagine you're not going to be doing anything other than low skilled work.

                        [–]angrybastards 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

                        Generally paying taxes doesn't have the risk of death or killing other people associated with them. Kind of apples to oranges.

                        [–]GlassActress 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        News flash. If you pay taxes in America, your money was used to drop bombs on someone.

                        [–]LaWu 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        What buys the drone rockets then?

                        [–]meter321 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Dude its Finland, they only really have had to deal with peace keeping operations.

                        Honestly, he's going against what he believes by being a conscientious objector.

                        [–]Chefmaczilla 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Honestly my paying taxes in the United states is likely responsible for more deaths than someone serving in the Finnish military.

                        [–]littlewyvern 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        neither does civilian service at nursing homes. but maybe i am too sheltered.

                        コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                          [–]TheScamr 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (12子コメント)

                          Do you think you should vote when you won't serve your country even as a civilian?

                          [–]ilmagnoon 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          "Serving" your country - you mean temporarily providing them with slave labor?

                          It isn't serving your country if half the population is exempt and it isn't consensual.

                          [–]TheScamr 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          OH, I don't think the women should vote if they are not subjected to the civilian portion of the draft either. In any country.

                          [–]heyerdahlthor 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

                          Yes

                          コメントをもっと表示する (4 返事)

                            [–]SlaversBae 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            Congratulations on standing up for what you believe in. Did you have any dark days while in prison? What was your darkest day and how did you overcome any negative emotions during your sentence?

                            [–]PhilthyMcNastay 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            It was raining then the sun came out.

                            [–]Phobos15 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                            Too be fair, they shouldn't let any religion be exempt.

                            If you want a country, you need to defend it. What is worse is your military service involves no fighting unless your country is actually invaded. You don't have to go fight made up wars in the middle east. So there is no real valid reason to reject service.

                            Why do you think it is ok to not defend your own country? What would want to happen during a real invasion?

                            [–]ODUSknotREEL 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            do you get paid if you take the civilian service model? doesn't mandatory service go along with free health care and education? aren't finish jails like hotels? are you worried about missing out on an experience all your peers in your country wil share?

                            [–]Tauntar 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            So... How do you feel now? Everything's cool?

                            [–]RenzelTheDamned 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Were there any other conscientious objectors, and were you singled out by other inmates for refusing to serve your country?

                            [–]invalidpath 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            So being a citizen of one of the happiest and healthiest countries in the world.. and you refuse to serve the country that brought you all that happiness and healthiness? Yeah, good move.

                            [–]PhilthyMcNastay 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            Do you accept any form of social welfare or are you only a conscientious objector when you need to commit to some actual work ?

                            [–]userx9 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                            What is the name of your death metal band?

                            コメントをもっと表示する (47 返事)