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IamA 19-year-old conscientious objector. After 173 days in prison, I was released last Saturday. AMA! (self.IAmA)

Triplecon が 投稿

My short bio: I am Risto Miinalainen, a 19-year-old upper secondary school student and conscientious objector from Finland. Finland has compulsory military service, though women, Jehovah's Witnesses and people from Åland are not required to serve. A civilian service option exists for those who refuse to serve in the military, but this service lasts more than twice as long as the shortest military service. So-called total objectors like me refuse both military and civilian service, which results in a sentence of 173 days. I sent a notice of refusal in late 2015, was sentenced to 173 days in prison in spring 2016 and did my time in Suomenlinna prison, Helsinki, from the 4th of October 2016 to the 25th of March 2017. In addition to my pacifist beliefs, I made my decision to protest against the human rights violations of Finnish conscription: international protectors of human rights such as Amnesty International and the United Nations Human Rights Committee have for a long time demanded that Finland shorten the length of civilian service to match that of military service and that the possibility to be completely exempted from service based on conscience be given to everybody, not just a single religious group - Amnesty even considers Finnish total objectors prisoners of conscience. An individual complaint about my sentence will be lodged to the European Court of Human Rights in the near future. AMA! Information about Finnish total objectors

My Proof: A document showing that I have completed my prison sentence (in Finnish) A picture of me to compare with for example this War Resisters' International page or this news article (in Finnish)

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[–]TimmyTwoSmokes 107 ポイント108 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Will this affect your chances of getting work in the future?

[–]Jaroneko 52 ポイント53 ポイント  (5子コメント)

To a degree, yes. It might hamper a career in a place he probably wouldn't fit in anyway and might even make him more appealing to a like minded employer.

Many of our life choices do.

[–]IZEDx 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Wonderfully vague

[–]Esoteric_Erric 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What do you mean? He was very specific.

"to a degree" "might" "probably" "might" are all in there.

[–]mrglubglub 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

A JW will hire you.

[–]blofly 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Jehovas Witnesses will hire anybody, though.

[–]Jaroneko 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well a university already has, but I'll prolly be back on the market in a few years after we move to another country, so it's nice to know I've got that going for me. ;)

コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

    [–]gatkinso315 114 ポイント115 ポイント  (72子コメント)

    What was wrong with the civilian service?

    [–]Triplecon[S] 124 ポイント125 ポイント  (70子コメント)

    To me, civilian service would have felt like I'm silently approving the system. In my opinion, conscription is not a very efficient way of maintaining an army and civilian service is just an extension of the same system. By choosing total objection I wanted to bring the issues of our system to public discussion and feel like I've accomplished something.

    [–]Phenomenon42 50 ポイント51 ポイント  (8子コメント)

    Can you talk about what the civil service options were? Generally, at least in USA, civil service isn't about "approving" the government's strengths, its about acknowledging their glaring failures and trying to fix it, in some small way. Or make a real difference in a person's life or a communities quality of life. Often these changes are incredibly small compared to the problem, but surely its still worth doing.

    I get the argument that "the government shouldn't force me to do anything". But on the other hand, speaking broadly, a mandatory term of civil service, can not only make the community better, but serve to broaden the individuals perspective. Perhaps a middle class person, gaining a real understanding of what it means to be impoverished? This is an example, and may not be accurate to Finland's system, or your situation.

    [–]Triplecon[S] 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Typical ways to complete civilian service include education facilities, nursing homes, congregations, hospitals, political ministries etc. I very much agree that performing civilian service can be a very helpful option both to the service place and the person serving, especially if the place is related to one's career plans. If only our system was more equal, I could definitely have chosen civilian service instead of total objection.

    [–]SlapHappyRodriguez 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    If only our system was more equal, I could definitely have chosen civilian service instead of total objection.

    equality is often very difficult to define and often difficult to achieve.

    do you derive "equality" from the amount of time put into it?
    is it possible that others would see time as inequitable as the military work would be physically harder than work in education or nursing homes?

    [–]Orionite 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    If there is a civil option then there is no reason why there should be an exemption for otherwise able bodied citizens, like women or members of religious groups. So, reduce civil service time to match military service and make it mandatory for everyone to do one or the other.

    [–]MySockHurts 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    How can the system become more equal, in your opinion?

    [–]iskraiskra 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Probably reducing the civil service time to that of the military conscription (he/she said it was about double)

    [–]snorlz 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    guessing time length. that civilian service is like twice as long as the military one is mentioned multiple times in his intro

    [–]HandMeMyThinkingPipe 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I would imagine not exempting half of the population is a good start

    [–]snatchrodriguez 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Wow. It sounds like you had a chance to do some real good for the community, and instead decided to be a burden to it. To be honest, this just feels selfish to me. Have you considered that the risks undertaken when performing military service might be the reason why those that opt for that are allowed a shorter service?

    [–]Grandpas_Spells 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    To me, civilian service would have felt like I'm silently approving the system. In my opinion, conscription is not a very efficient way of maintaining an army and civilian service is just an extension of the same system.

    Would you mind clarifying this? I assume your religious objection is not due to the inefficiency of conscription, but rather that war is against your religion regardless of whether the army in question is conscripted or professional.

    It seems like civilian service is a reasonable alternative for religious objectors. The "system" is one which acknowledges the necessity of a military, but does not force individuals to engage in war if their religion prohibits it.

    You've obviously put a lot of thought into this, I'm just not sure I follow. My dad was a CO back in the day, but there was no alternative civilian service option in my country.

    [–]Triplecon[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Even though there is an alternative service option, those serving in the military can complete their service twice as fast. As if this wasn't unequal enough, only non-Jehowah's Witness men from somewhere else than Åland are required to serve. I do not want to support a discriminating system by becoming a part of it.

    [–]Grandpas_Spells 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Even though there is an alternative service option, those serving in the military can complete their service twice as fast.

    That seems fair. The service they're involved in is much more dangerous and so should be shorter than the safer civilian one. It also discourages shenanigans from fake objectors. Many more people would opt out of a military option if the civilian one was the same duration.

    As if this wasn't unequal enough, only non-Jehowah's Witness men from somewhere else than Åland are required to serve.

    This is accommodating a religious objection, not punishing people who don't share that religion.

    I do not want to support a discriminating system by becoming a part of it.

    Accommodating religious objection is not discrimination. I get the sense you haven't thought this through or aren't being entirely honest.

    [–]zfoose 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The military may complete there service twice as fast, but when deployed they are on the job 24-7. If you look at it from hours worked and personal risk involved, it looks like a fair system.

    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

      [–]no-mans-land 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (6子コメント)

      You know you share a border with Russia and that you've fought with them before right

      [–]PerennialPhilosopher 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (41子コメント)

      It takes guys to do what you did... I spent 56 days incarcerated and it was terrible. I hope your sacrifice makes a difference for others!

      [–]BeerDrinkinGreg 51 ポイント52 ポイント  (39子コメント)

      Pretty sure Scandanavian prisons are slightly less intense than the rest of the world. Probably not as big a deal as if he did time in the United States or Russia.

      [–]PerennialPhilosopher 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (35子コメント)

      Well giving up that much time from your life sucks no matter where it happens

      [–]GoodGuyAgain 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (6子コメント)

      except he benefits from programs of the state, and doesn't give back.

      [–]PerennialPhilosopher 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (5子コメント)

      They don't have taxes?

      [–]jacksalssome 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

      Do you pay taxes a prison?

      [–]PerennialPhilosopher 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I believe you do in the US if you still have income. But I was referring to outside the prison as the person I was responding to was

      [–]jacksalssome 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Think it as an extension to your question.

      [–]nill0c 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Probably, if you make an income, or buy anything at the commissary (with VAT anyway).

      [–]ilmagnoon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      In the US prisoners are taxed on their income.

      [–]BeerDrinkinGreg 37 ポイント38 ポイント  (27子コメント)

      He was in "Prison" from October to March. In Finland. He would probably have been indoors at his parents place all that time anyway. Have you read about Finnish prisons? Once they left the doors unlocked before the guards went home. (I'll just let both parts of that sentence kick in for a second) You know what the inmates did? They baked brownies.

      This kid is acting like he was in the Attica prison riots.

      Finland has a very small tax base, but very lavish social services, (by our standards) which is a good thing. Their education system is very well funded, along with their healthcare services, but their military isn't exactly used for "spreading democracy"©, it's used for spreading salt on roadways, mostly.

      So how does the government pay for it? Well, instead of paying grown adults a high salary to do menial labour like drive plow trucks and shovel the steps of Parliament, they draft kids to do it. Heck, I think it's a great idea. As long as these drafted "soldiers" aren't used for invasion, (who's Finland gonna invade, Russia?) I really don't have a problem with civil service. Most of Europe does it. Heck, most of the world does it. The only countries that don't have some sort of draft are in the Americas.

      [–]thesuperdoge 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (10子コメント)

      The brownie baking was Swedish prisoners.

      They also built a fort made out of blankets and watched a movie.

      Sauce in Swedish. http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article10937921.ab

      [–]BeerDrinkinGreg -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

      My mistake. But all of Scandanavia has pretty much the same prison culture. And interesting enough, the same low levels of recidivism.

      Go figure, if you don't allow corporations to make money off prisons, there are fewer people going to prison.

      [–]Clarkkkey 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Just saying Finland isnt part of Scandinavia.

      [–]SullenCalpurnia 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (6子コメント)

      Quit the bullshit generalisation about all of Scandinavia because you have no idea what you're talking about.

      [–]NurRauch 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Studied Scandinavian prison policies in law school. For the most part he's not wrong. Yeah it's a lot of generalizing but someone with no criminal record like this kid probably had a comfortable living space with access to regular TV, internet, books and family visits.

      [–]IcarusBen 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Especially since Finland isn't in Scandinavia, it's in Fenno-Scandia.

      [–]Clarkkkey 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Instead of saying he has no idea, why dont you prove it?

      Oh wait you cant, because hes correct.

      コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

        [–]Veni_Vidi_Legi 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        who's Finland gonna invade, Russia?

        Ahh, a reversal of the Russian Reversal!

        [–]snek-queen 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Ireland, Italy, France, Croatia, Czech Republic, Germany, Latvia, Luxembourg, Malta, The Netherlands, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, and the UK don't really have any form of draft or conscription, but please tell me more about how most of Europe has it.

        [–]PeacefulSequoia 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        You can add Belgium to that list

        [–]cannotfoolowls 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        It seems like a big part of the world does NOT have conscription.

        Green: Countries that don't have any armed service.

        Blue: Countries that don't have conscription.

        Purple: Countries that have active draft system, but less than 20% of the whole age group (include men or women), or 40% of the whole men age group if only male are conscripted are compelled to enlist.

        Orange: Countries where the current government is planning to abolish conscription.

        Red: Countries that have conscription.

        Sweden has reeintroduced it, recently, and France, Germany and iirc Poland are considering reintroducing it.

        [–]ellis1884uk 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Germany is thinking about re-introducing it.

        [–]ANALBANDIT-69 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        The German far-right is thinking about re-introducing it, not normal people.

        [–]Galactic_Z 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (6子コメント)

        He was still incarcerated, held in one place against his will for refusing to join a military.

        [–]himswim28 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        for refusing to join a military.

        No, for refusing to do a required 12 months of civil service to his country. He could have done 6 months armed, or 12 months un-armed, or 6 months confined. He choose the confined period.

        [–]Galactic_Z 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Compulsory service is still compulsory service, something I don't believe in unless a nation is being attacked.

        It's also a sexist institution, women are not required to serve.

        [–]Cause_and_affect -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        And then refusing the alternative civil services to work in a nursing home or university instead. He deserves jail. He knew the consequences and knew he could just ignore school and work and just hang out in a Finnish halfway house for 6 months if he said no.

        コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

          [–]OnTheCanRightNow 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          So what you're saying is that the Finnish military aren't really soldiers, they're slaves, and that's more okay?

          [–]Sabre_Actual 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          The Finnish people have decided that in order to maintain basic components of a country that invests huge amounts into their citizens' education and health, that said citizens should give six months, when they are healthiest and have few responsibilities in their personal lives, in order to A.) both train and prepare the citizenry in the event that world stability changes, and B.) cut costs on many state careers, therefore allowing great spending on education and healthcare among others.

          That's the trade-off. Perhaps the Finns could lower the qualifications and pay of teachers, and shift the cost of health care into the private sector, in order to pay for a professional military and civilians to do interior tasks. Or the state could give its people true freedom, as you seem to suggest, and dissolve the state. No duty to pay taxes, no required service, no nothin'.

          [–]HandMeMyThinkingPipe 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          The US has an option for a draft and every male has to register for "selective service" in case the government decides to institute a draft. But we haven't had a draft since Vietnam here so we effectively don't have a draft.

          [–]Innundator 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Scandinavian prison is probably better than living in a lot of US Urban centers, let alone US prisons

          [–]GoodGuyAgain 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          just ask the kiddie mass murderer who lives in a glorified hotel suite in jail.

          [–]PersonOfLowInterest 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          In Finland this prison time does not have to be spent in a prison. You may also just take a sort of bracelet that tracks you for the duration of time you would spend there. So you could, in a sense, spend it at home, studying, doing whatever you want as long as you don't break the time rules.

          [–]GoodGuyAgain 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          and your opinion re: conscription, is very efficient. everyone serves, learns skills, etc.

          the only thing you accomplished is going to jail and showing that you don't deserve the benefits of living in your country.

          [–]Cause_and_affect 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Seems like a pretty efficient way to keep an army, you've had consistent numbers the last several decades and that will continue as long as conscription exists. That's the point of it.

          [–]anonymous_being 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Agreed. Well done!

          [–]shgkdshg 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          How long is the military service and how long the civilian service? Seems like 6 months of prison are basically like summer camp instead, considering what I heard about prisons in Finland.

          コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

            [–]newvictim 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            It is a Jehovah Witness thing, they are politically neutral.

            [–]manicbiguy 61 ポイント62 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            what socio-economic class are you? rich, poor, middle class etc?

            [–]Triplecon[S] 66 ポイント67 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Middle class, I guess. My family has never been too wealthy, but I don't think we're poor either. I am obviously still relatively young and my future isn't dead set yet, but an academic degree is definitely part of my plan. I will finish upper secondary school in a few months and getting a place in a university should be no problem with my study results.

            [–]SheepGoesBaaaa 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Middle class is hard to pick in Finland I found. Everyone has a Sauna. Only the poshest people I know outside of Suomi have a Sauna

            [–]penguiin_ 42 ポイント43 ポイント  (5子コメント)

            How was it in prison? I hear prisons in Finland, Sweden, Norway etc are relatively nice. Also, how did your fellow inmates treat you when they heard what you were in for?

            [–]Triplecon[S] 82 ポイント83 ポイント  (4子コメント)

            Suomenlinna prison is a so-called open prison, which means that inmates are relatively low-security and moving (mostly) freely in the prison perimeter was permitted within the daily timetable's limitations. Most Finnish prisons are "closed" and correspond more to a layperson's view of a prison.

            As for other prisoners' reactions, I never really got anything too negative. Some thought I am fighting windmills, some thought my choice was admirable, but no one was hostile towards me due to my reason of imprisonment. Most seemed to think that I didn't belong in prison, but nevertheless respected me standing up for my beliefs.

            [–]Phobos15 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            What kind of crimes did the other inmates in the open prison commit?

            [–]Triplecon[S] 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            We had all kinds of people from sexual criminals to drug dealers and white-collar criminals. My long-time roommate was convicted of a white-collar crime, but the house I lived in also had people with a history of violence and/or sexual crime. There was even a triple murderer in Suomenlinna a few years ago, though I (luckily) wasn't there then.

            [–]ellis1884uk 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            how common is it for people to refuse? was there anyone else in the prison in your situation?

            [–]LAsDad 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            So you went to mandatory hang out for a few months and decided to do an AMA? Come on man. We want someone who actually had to go through some shit. And not because they didn't want to pay taxes.

            [–]kevin11040 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (7子コメント)

            How long was the mandatory service term?

            [–]Triplecon[S] 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (6子コメント)

            Military service lasts 165, 225 or 347 days, while civilian service always lasts 347 days. My 173 days were calculated from the last number: the sentence of a total objector equals half of the civilian service left rounded down.

            [–]JRemyF 39 ポイント40 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            The reality of the service timeline makes it hard for me to understand your decision in a practical sense. I understand that ideologically there isn't a difference between a year of conscripted service and 3 years as it is in Israel. But half a year of military service? That's barely enough time to complete any sort of meaningful training here in the US.

            What exactly does civil service entail? And if the option exists for people with pacifist beliefs like yourself I find it hard to understand why it's so objectionable.

            Would you rather Finland have an all volunteer force? Would it be acceptable if conscription was more universally applied (e.g. Women had to serve as well?)

            How do you reconcile your pacifist beliefs with the reality of an increasingly aggressive Russia on the border?

            [–]liquorandwhores94 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Another question he could be asking himself is how can he reconcile joining a military force unwillingly while NATO has been ramping up military activity at the Russian border? He might become a part of what many see as a very foolhardy decision.

            [–]snorlz 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            That's barely enough time to complete any sort of meaningful training here in the US.

            guessing the training is toned way downs cause its meant for everyone to have some basic idea, whereas the US is all volunteers who are trying to become professional soldiers

            [–]GetAtMeWolf 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Is that 347 days of service or is that 347 days total including days off? If it is the latter, how many days off does this include and what wage would be paid (versus your national minimum wage).

            Personally I don't agree with you. They don't force you into the military by having the civil service option. And these would both act at great programs for giving a bit of real-world work experience to those entering the workforce.

            [–]TheRog0 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Days off are included in the number, and payment is way below minimum wage. For the first ~6months you get 5.50€/day (including days off). The pay is increased after the first 165 days, anf increased once more for the last ~three months if you serve 347 days.

            Usually you have the weekend off, but not always. During my 347-service it was probably something like 2 weekends off - 1 weekend in. You also get an ammount of days to spend (roughly one day per month served). You apply for days off and if the Officer in charge allows the dates you applied for, you get to use them. You can also earn additional days off by exemplary performances in various activities or extrordinary behaviour. A friend of mine got one day for being mentioned in the news when he and his friends helped people carry their luggage off of a train that malfunctioned for example.

            I hope that answers you questions.

            [–]GoddamnKeyserSoze 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Aww, that's humane of them to round that down instead of up.

            [–]CuervoJones 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Are there a lot of J.W.s in Finland?

            [–]ellis1884uk 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            our former postman in England was one, he'd turn up every single day to our door...

            to deliver our post!

            [–]TheBrownBrownie 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Do you regret your decision? If you had th choice would you choose to go to prison again? Thanks for doing this AMA

            [–]SevenMason 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            He probably doesn't ATM.

            It seems to me, since the term is so short, the point of the service is to give you basic fighting skills and a knowledge of how the military works. If the Russian bear comes calling, every swinging dick (including his tiny nub), is going to be on the front line. He isn't going to know his ass from a hole in the ground, and will die. He may regret it then.

            [–]TooGnar 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Would you have made the same choice, if you would of had to serve in a "closed" prison?

            [–]Arimer 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            That's what i'd like to know. . Free meals, free housing, free to do as you please on campus.

            What part of this was a personal sacrifice that I should feel sympathetic towards? I mean i understand the objections but don't act like it was a big deal going to what is basically summer camp.

            [–]TomHicks 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Do you resent that women are not conscripted? Do female Finns support male-only conscription in your experience? Why weren't you sentenced to home detention? I thought that was the current standard punishment for draft dodging.

            [–]nylus 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Why are there different lengths of military service? What does the non military service consist of? Why do you not want to be of service to the country you are part of, even in a peaceful capacity?

            [–]moptic 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            I wondered the same. Looks like if you just want to do the bare minimum you can, if you want any technical skills or promotion, that's when you do the longer stints.

            From wiki

            Privates who are trained for tasks not requiring special skills serve for five and half months. In technically demanding tasks the time of service is eight and half or (in some cases, such as those selected for NCO or officer training) eleven and half months.

            [–]nylus 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            If they teach you a skill they keep you longer. I haven't seen any of this I find unfair yet. The extended domestic service is a little messed up, but I also don't think OPs method of dealing with the problem will ever see results, as the government has already planned for people like him to be art of the system. They could implement a training program in prison and keep you there up to a year after they give you a skill and feed and house you for a year after you leave your parents home, that would improve it certainly ;)

            [–]125cm3 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Thanks for posting- interesting story! Why exactly do you believe it isn't your duty to help defend your country? Would you join the military if a credible threat to democracy in Finland or elsewhere appeared, e.g. 1939 Hilter 2.0 or if Russia invaded Belarus or Sweden?

            [–]Crumpehh 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Probably not what your ama is about, but can you describe Finish prison? I'm from the US and I've heard prison is so much different in Scandinavian countries.

            [–]CannibalCrowley 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Do you think that you would've made the same decision if the prison system was more harsh and dangerous (like it is in many other countries)?

            [–]vectorama 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (3子コメント)

            So total objectors also object to the length of service of the civilian obligation or to the entire thing?

            I was in the US military (obviously volunteer) but realize that it's not for everyone. I do however think that a civilian service requirement would be an incredible thing for people in my country from the age of 18-20.

            [–]Triplecon[S] 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Some total objectors object to mandatory service itself. My main gripes with civilian service are its punitive length and the fact that I feel civilian service supports conscription, but motives vary a lot between objectors.

            About requiring civilian service from everyone: I feel like finding meaningful work for everyone might be a problem, especially since forcing someone to work does not motivate them to do their best. Human rights conventions are also pretty strict on these kinds of systems: forced civilian service is generally only accepted if it is either a conscience-based alternative to mandatory military service or if serving is a normal civic obligation.

            [–]eliottruelove 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Are your pacifist beliefs philosophical or religious? I agree that JWs being the only religious group to be exempt may seem unfair, but if your pacifist beliefs were based on the bible, couldn't you just copy-paste the scriptures JWs use to explain why you are exempt as well?

            [–]Triplecon[S] 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            My pacifism is philosophical, but even if my choice was based on religion, it wouldn't help at all. The exemption of the JWs is actually written in law: only people who can prove that they are Jehovah's Witnesses can be exempted. Interestingly, JWs nowadays allow their members to perform civilian service, but this has led to no changes in Finnish legislation; JWs can still get exempted from all service.

            [–]TheNaughtyMonkey 57 ポイント58 ポイント  (16子コメント)

            Sorry, but I don't have any sympathy.

            It is part of your country that you provide service to the nation. As you have a non-military option (and Finland's military has only been deployed in peacekeeping operations) I don't see how this is a moral issue.

            You are objecting to national service, not military actions. Sorry, but my view is that you should have sucked it up, and done what every other Finn has done.

            I suppose you could have left Finland, and moved to another country that was more closely aligned with your personal views of national service. Was that an option?

            [–]randomlygeneral 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I steongly disagree with you. In my opinion the fact that women and JW dont have to do a military/civil service in itself is unfair and if you agree you would have to stand up and make it a point to not comply with an unfair treatment of men/non JW.

            [–]cerhio 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Yeah I could completely get behind someone's choice to abstain from killing another person but getting out of shovelling snow?

            [–]axisofelvis 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Firstly, I don't think he is here looking for sympathy. Secondly, just because everyone "sucks it up" doesn't make it right.

            [–]16apec 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            While it may not be a moral issue to you, it is to him. He was given the option to join a military he doesn't believe in, or support the system which forces people to join said military. If the state asked you to help perpetuate their violent agenda by picking up a gun for them, or told you "Oh you don't like fighting, do paperwork for us instead". You're supporting their agenda either way. You're still assisting them.

            [–]corelatedfish 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (8子コメント)

            It didn't sound like he was asking for sympathy.

            [–]no-mans-land 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (5子コメント)

            Sure he is, why else would he post this.

            [–]NYCmichael 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Possibly to bring awareness or just talk about his situation. Its self serving but I dont think he was searching for sympathy per se

            [–]no-mans-land 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            "bring awareness" is a synonym for sympathy.

            [–]NYCmichael 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            You should look up sympathy in the dictionary

            [–]corelatedfish 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Maybe to spread public awareness of a situation most people are unaware of?

            コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

              [–]YutRahKill11 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              He's blatantly looking for attention and pats on the back for "sticking it to the man."

              [–]corelatedfish 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I don't see that kind of pride in his tale.

              [–]bermudi86 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              He is also free to choose what he chose​. Conscious objection is also an option and he dealt with the consequences. Now, having payed his dues, he wants to talk about it and bring attention to the fact that a forced choice is no choice at all. He has a right to bring attention to what he thinks is an issue and he is playing by the rules.

              So, what is you god damn problem then?

              [–]stml 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              It's like nobody even read his post. One of the main arguments against the civilian service is that it is double the length of the military service. If civilian service was the same length as military service, then I would feel that OP has no argument.

              [–]Troub313 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Because Military service is indubitably harder than the civilian service, not to mention dangerous. Also, let's look at the length. It's a year. You have to work a job for a year. Oh, heavens.

              [–]sirmidor 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              As someone wholly unfamiliar with Finland, what's the reason that women don't have join up, either military or civilian service?
              Is there any sentiment among the general public that they should or not, what's the general opinion?

              [–]shigensis 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I'm more intrigued why jehovas witnesses are exempt?

              [–]FreshLennon 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (6子コメント)

              I don't know why, but even though you were imprisoned for refusing to be forced into the military, I just can't get behind you on this. I mean it sounds horrible on paper and I may just be an ignorant American, but it just doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. I actually wish we had a civil service program here in the states. Are you getting any pushback from friends or family? How do people in Finland view your decision?

              [–]TheNaughtyMonkey 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              It wasn't about the military. There are non-military options for National Service.

              [–]FreshLennon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I know this, but OP believes that joining the non military civil service is in a way supporting the military option. I am very familiar with the civil service option and I support it.

              [–]jaydizzleforshizzle 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              I think I would tend to agree he said that civilian service would be less than a year(347 days) that's nothing.

              [–]FreshLennon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              A German friend of mine chose to serve his time in the civil service volunteering in beautiful Northern Ireland. It's where I met him actually.

              [–]PolaroidBook 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              A lot of people seem to be suggesting that the required service is OK because there's an option for civil service. Firstly, the length of civil service is punitive.

              Secondly, his compliance in this way would legitimatise a system he fundamentally disagrees with.

              Consider also that his ideas of best serving his country are different to yours.

              [–]ilmagnoon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              You wish we had a program here where we'd be forced to work for the government for a set period of time? You must be quite the statist.

              [–]archiebh 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              What did you enjoy about prison? Is there anything at all that you miss?

              [–]slelham 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Did your friends family try to stop you from submitting the letter and try convincing you to just the military time?

              [–]faelun 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Does this count as having a criminal record? and does this in any way impact your capacity to obtain employment? What did your family think about this?

              [–]commentist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Hi . How do you feel about your Finnish ancestor who fight of Russian ?

              [–]Dethdealer668 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Why do you concienciously object?

              [–]itsjustluck 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              How did you spend your time in prison?

              [–]PhilthyMcNastay 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Prepping for a huge life changing amount of life karma heading his way.

              [–]TylerDurdenSoapTM 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I hear Finnish prisons are like retirement homes... any truth in this?

              [–]00flip34 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

              Conscientious objector to paying taxes too ? I don't like taxes,but I pay them.

              [–]angrybastards 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Generally paying taxes doesn't have the risk of death or killing other people associated with them. Kind of apples to oranges.

              [–]fanglord 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Eh I kinda feel that's an unfair comparison, being made to physically do something you don't want to for a year with legal consequences for objection is abit ehhhh.

              Like tax is generated from doing whatever you do normally. It sucks but then you're not forced to clean up shit as a healthcare worker for a year.

              I should add, I have not read into the actual options but for a years service, I'd imagine you're not going to be doing anything other than low skilled work.

              [–]C137-Morty 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (6子コメント)

              How do you feel about to winter war which took place during WW2 between finland and russia. If your country were to be invaded would you fight to keep it?

              [–]jeepdave 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

              I doubt he would fight to keep a bagel if you took it from him.

              [–]NotSure8150 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              And what? You defend your country by wearing a red hat made in china?

              [–]jeepdave 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I defend my country with a gun.

              [–]bangorthebarbarian 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

              They do have a professional military.

              [–]Guuggel 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              what?

              [–]bangorthebarbarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I know, shocking, right? Russia right on your doorstep, the rest of NATO a sea away.

              [–]TheScamr 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (5子コメント)

              Do you think you should vote when you won't serve your country even as a civilian?

              [–]heyerdahlthor 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Yes

              [–]GlueLamp 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

              Finland =/= Starship troopers

              [–]derpmcderp82 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Unless of course, the world is actually a fairly scary place where bad things actually happen.

              [–]TheScamr 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Finland was mostly part of Sweden or Russia for much of its history. Really when it comes to being gobbled up by neighbors I think, as far as Europe goes, only Poland has had a worse time maintaining its independence.

              So, given all the history of Finland being conquered I think the draft or public service requirement make a lot of sense and OP is pretty selfish.

              [–]SlaversBae 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Congratulations on standing up for what you believe in. Did you have any dark days while in prison? What was your darkest day and how did you overcome any negative emotions during your sentence?

              [–]PhilthyMcNastay 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              It was raining then the sun came out.

              [–]Tauntar 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              So... How do you feel now? Everything's cool?

              [–]Phobos15 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

              Too be fair, they shouldn't let any religion be exempt.

              If you want a country, you need to defend it. What is worse is your military service involves no fighting unless your country is actually invaded. You don't have to go fight made up wars in the middle east. So there is no real valid reason to reject service.

              Why do you think it is ok to not defend your own country? What would want to happen during a real invasion?

              [–]melbpaul86 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

              Do you feel like you wasted time in prison when you could have been learning some sort of valuable skills, getting fit and disciplined?

              Is Finland military more involed in humanitarian, civil emergency and peacekeeping activities or are they sent to conflicts?

              Did you get a PS2 in prison like the other scandanavian who went on a rampage and killed 70 people?

              [–]RenzelTheDamned 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Were there any other conscientious objectors, and were you singled out by other inmates for refusing to serve your country?

              [–]theDukesofSwagger 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              So you couldn't have just tried to serve the shortest time in the military? Look at it this way: guaranteed pay, a new experience, plus one less criminal offense on you. You kinda just sound like the entitled little shits I know over here in America. Pussy.

              [–]Collin_b_ballin 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

              So are you a commie or just a pussy?

              [–]Cause_and_affect 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              A conscientious objector who won't even work a desk job in a wholly civilian hospital is essentially a declared enemy living in your soil. Why wouldn't a country put those people in jail?

              [–]Hyedwtditpm 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              can you reject to pay taxes too?

              [–]PhilthyMcNastay 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Being a conscientious objector to all forms of military ? Can't you get a job in the military that doesn't require firing a weapon? (Wasn't there just an amazing movie that came out about this?)

              [–]klevenisms204 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              what do you think of Patrik Laine?

              [–]StuUllman 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Have people's opinions on you changed? Congrats...I would have done the same thing.

              [–]veggieSmoker 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              How do you defend others with these beliefs? We live in a world where, unfortunately, people harm others with violence and oppression. If it's in your power to stop that violence, don't you have a moral and civic responsibility to do so? I understand not being the aggressor, but what about defending a violent attack, necessarily, with some form of violence, to defend a child, a victim, the innocent?

              [–]invalidpath 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              So being a citizen of one of the happiest and healthiest countries in the world.. and you refuse to serve the country that brought you all that happiness and healthiness? Yeah, good move.

              [–]PhilthyMcNastay 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Do you accept any form of social welfare or are you only a conscientious objector when you need to commit to some actual work ?

              [–]Phlox_carolina -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Do you understand that pacifism is dangerous in how it does not protect the innocent from evil-doers?

              [–]ODUSknotREEL 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              do you get paid if you take the civilian service model? doesn't mandatory service go along with free health care and education? aren't finish jails like hotels? are you worried about missing out on an experience all your peers in your country wil share?

              [–]armcurls 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              What was the craziest thing you saw in prison?

              [–]LittleRichurd 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              What's wrong with serving YOUR country?

              コメントをもっと表示する (21 返事)